And a merry old soul was he
GRHa...@cs.com
Cole" and someone could show them where the defect in the mythology is. The
suggestion wasn't made to me; but I would like to know. I am including my
descent below. I know that a l
of the ancient genealogy is at least partly concocted; maybe the greatest
part of it; so you won't offend me in telling me that I am descended from a
nonexistent person.
Coel
Aiofe
Murdeach Tireadh
Eochy Moyvone
Niall Mor
Foghan Owen
Muredach
Colla Uais Came
Fergus Mor MacErch
Domangart
Gabhran
Edhan Aidan
Eochaidh I Buidhe
Domnall Breach
Domgart
Eochaidh
Fergus
Main
Godfrey
Niallghusa
Suibne
Mearrdha
Solain
GilleDomnan
Olaf of Northumbria
Fergus de Galloway
Uchtred de Galloway
Roland of Galloway
Helen of Galloway
Helen deQuincy
Margery La Zouche
Eupheme Fitzroger Clavering
Ralph Neville
John Neville
Raloph Neville
William Neville
Dionce Neville
Thomas Brocket
Edward Brocket
John Brocket
John Brocket
John Brocket
John Brocket
Frances Brocket
Dudley North
Lady Jane Bridgett North
Frances Moss
John Brown
Benjamin Brown
Bartlett Brown
James Brown
Eliza A. Brown
Thomas Isham Malone
Sally Lou Malone
Gordon Reid Hale, Jr. (that's me)
Tear me up folks.
Gordon Reid Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas
Does someone have any idea how crazy these names have to a spell check
program?
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> taf suggested to someone that they send in their descent to "Old King
> Cole" and someone could show them where the defect in the mythology is. The
> suggestion wasn't made to me; but I would like to know. I am including my
> descent below.
Well, let's see . . . .
> Coel
> Aiofe
> Murdeach Tireadh
> Eochy Moyvone
> Niall Mor
> Foghan Owen
> Muredach
> Colla Uais Came
-------------
break
-------------
While Fergus is often asigned antecedents in Ireland, they are
not thought to be factual, and these are not them. The
traditional pedigree of Fergus Mor mac Erc makes him (as the name
would suggest) son of Ercc, son of Eochaid of Irish Dalriada, and
goes on from there. As to Fergus, he or less likely his
grandfather Eochaid are generally accepted as the earliest likely
authentic member of the lineage of the Kings of Scottish Dal
Riada, although I have seen a minority opinion that Fergus was a
semi-legendary ancestor to which the earliest Kings were
attached. Your Colla Uais appears in the traditional lineages of
the clans of Scotland, as father of Eochaid, father of Erc, which
I am sure is how he came to be attached to this pedigree, but
traditionally, this is not the same Erc, as will be seen below.
(I suspect, in fact, that this represents an older pedigree
fragment that has come to be attached to two distinct and
mutually exclusive traditional pedigrees.) All the name above
this point are unsupportable.
> Fergus Mor MacErch
> Domangart
> Gabhran
> Edhan Aidan
> Eochaidh I Buidhe
> Domnall Breach
> Domgart
> Eochaidh
> Fergus
-------------
break
-------------
Down to this point follows one of the lines of Kings of Scottish
Dal Riada, with the king credited with uniting Scotland, Kenneth
Mac Alpin descending from a brother of this last Fergus, whose
descent can only be documented a couple of additional
generations, if that. The names which follow come from an
ancient pedigree (which I will mention again below). Your
version mistakenly has switched the named Maine and Godfrey,
Niallgus being son of Maine, son of Godfrey son of Fergus. With
this Fergus, the two pedigrees diverge. In the traditional
pedigree, Fergus is son of Erc, son of Carthend, son of Erc, son
of Eochu, son of Colla Uais (who reappears above in yours).
Having a Fergus Mac Erc in this line makes one wonder if the
target wasn't to associate the line with the Dal Riadan royalty.
Be that as it may, the attachment was not through the Fergus
shown.
> Main
> Godfrey
> Niallghusa
> Suibne
> Mearrdha
> Solain
> GilleDomnan
-------------
break
-------------
What you have here is the traditional, pedigree of an
Gaelic-Scottish lord of prominance, but not Fergus of Galloway.
This is the pedigree of Somerled of Argyll, who was son of
GilleBrigte, son of GilleAdomnain. While there is tradition of
relationship, I have not seen it made explicit, and certainly the
version given here is flawed. One late work makes Fergus son of
a Somerled, which has usually been taken as an inaccurate
expression of the relationship. There has been some speculation
that the source is accurate, that Fergus was son of a distinct
Somerled. An Olaf of Northumbria in the midst of a Gaelic
Scottish pedigree is certainly out of place, but stranger things
have happenned (after all, look at the Godfrey further up in the
list).
> Olaf of Northumbria
--------------
break
--------------
I have never seen this before, and must dismiss it as invention.
We do not know Fergus's ancestry, and this seems to be an
anachronistic attempt to link him to the Northumbrian vikings.
> Fergus de Galloway
> Uchtred de Galloway
The rest is beyond the realm of legend and gross invention, but
that doesn't mean its true.
taf
Tracy Scarpino
Claudius I of Rome
Arviragus (married Claudius' daughter Venissa)
Marius (Meric)
Coel
Althildis of Britain
her son (name unknown)
Aioffe King of Ireland
Muireadhach K. of Ireland
Niall Noigillach "of the nine hostages"
Eoghanr King of Dalraide
Muireadhach of Ireland
Fergus Mor Mac Earca King of Ireland and Scotland
Donald I
Eochaid II
Gabhran of Scotland
Eolhan of Scotland
Eochaid III
Donald II
Donald III
Aodh Hugh Fionn
Eochaid IV
Alpin King of Scotland
Kenneth I McAlpin
Constantine I King of Scotland
Donald II
Malcolm I
Kenneth II
Malcolm II
Thora Donada (daughter of Malcolm) married Sigurd Earl of the Orkney Isles
Thorfin the Dane
Bardolf
Akaris Fil Bardolf
Bondo Fil Akaris
Walter Fil Bondo De Washington
Robert de Washington
etc....
>On 22 Nov 2000 20:53:53 -0800, GRHa...@cs.com wrote:
>
>> taf suggested to someone that they send in their descent to "Old King
>>Cole" and someone could show them where the defect in the mythology is. The
>>suggestion wasn't made to me; but I would like to know. I am including my
>>descent below. I know that a l
>> of the ancient genealogy is at least partly concocted; maybe the greatest
>>part of it; so you won't offend me in telling me that I am descended from a
>>nonexistent person.
>>
>>Coel
>>Aiofe
>
>I have not previously seen this attempt at a link between Coel and the
>Ui Neill, but see no reason to believe that there is any basis to it.
>
>>Murdeach Tireadh
>>Eochy Moyvone
>>Niall Mor
>>Foghan Owen
>>Muredach
>
>This looks like five consecutive generations from the Ui Neill
>pedigree of Irish kings, but with the names very mangled. They lie
>roughly on the boundary between pseudohistory an history.
>
>>Colla Uais Came
>
>The mythical Colla Uais was of the Airgialla, and in the Irish
>pseudohistory was a contemporary of Muiredach Tireach. His place in
>this genealogy is nonhistorical.
>
>>Fergus Mor MacErch
>>Domangart
>>Gabhran
>>Edhan Aidan
>>Eochaidh I Buidhe
>>Domnall Breach
>>Domgart
>>Eochaidh
>>Fergus
>
>The above names (sometimes badly mangled, and with a missing
>generation) are based on certain historical kings of Dalriada from the
>sixth through the eighth centuries, but they have no connection with
>the sections that come before or after.
>
>>Main
>>Godfrey
>>Niallghusa
>>Suibne
>>Mearrdha
>>Solain
>>GilleDomnan
>
>The above generations (partly out of order) come from the traditional
>genealogy of Somerled of Argyll (d. 1164), and have no connection with
>what comes before or after.
>
>>Olaf of Northumbria
>
>This name looks like complete nonsense to me. There were two kings of
>York named Olaf in the tenth century, but they would not make
>chronologically possible fathers for Fergus of Galloway, who lived in
>the twelfth century.
>
>>Fergus de Galloway
>>Uchtred de Galloway
>>Roland of Galloway
>
>[rest deleted]
>
>These are historical twelfth and thirteenth century rulers of
>Galloway, but the parentage of Fergus is completely unknown.
>
>While certain sections of this "genealogy" have a historical basis
>within themselves, it is a cut-and-paste mess as a whole.
>
>Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
Leo van de Pas
that point the ancestry line moved from legend into fact, but that the
factual line was not necessary correct.At first I thought "why doesn't he
say what is wrong, if there is something wrong?" but then why should he? And
so I checked the little bit I can. See below
----- Original Message -----
From: <GRHa...@cs.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:53 PM
Subject: And a merry old soul was he
<snip>
> Aiofe
> Murdeach Tireadh
> Eochy Moyvone
> Niall Mor
> Foghan Owen
> Muredach
> Colla Uais Came
> Fergus Mor MacErch
> Domangart
> Gabhran
> Edhan Aidan
> Eochaidh I Buidhe
> Domnall Breach
> Domgart
> Eochaidh
> Fergus
> Main
> Godfrey
> Niallghusa
> Suibne
> Mearrdha
> Solain
> GilleDomnan
> Olaf of Northumbria
From here we have stepped out from legends
> Fergus de Galloway
> Uchtred de Galloway
> Roland of Galloway
--------here I have an additional generation : Alan of Galloway
> Helen of Galloway
> Helen deQuincy
> Margery La Zouche
> Eupheme Fitzroger Clavering
> Ralph Neville
> John Neville
> Ralph Neville (1st Earl of Westmorland and husband of (2) Joan Beaufort
the next generation is by the first wife)
> William Neville, Earl of Kent
...........I think I have all his children, three legitimate daughters and
two illegitimate sons, but no Dionce. And so I would cut the line here.
Sorry for that.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> At first I thought taf was a bit mean with his parting message "that from
> that point the ancestry line moved from legend into fact, but that the
> factual line was not necessary correct.At first I thought "why doesn't he
> say what is wrong, if there is something wrong?"
Because he, or rather, I, did not have the references handy to
address it. I have never encountered any of the material from
the first Brocket down, and in the wee hours of the night
couldn't trust my memory on the Neville's nor wanted to spend
hours digging out the details.
> but then why should he?
Indeed.
taf
William Addams Reitwiesner
<chomp>
>John Brocket
>John Brocket
>Frances Brocket
m. 1600 Dudley North, 3rd Baron North (d. 1666)
>Dudley North
4th Baron North (d. 1677)
>Lady Jane Bridgett North
>Frances Moss
>John Brown
>Benjamin Brown
>Bartlett Brown
>James Brown
>Eliza A. Brown
>Thomas Isham Malone
>Sally Lou Malone
>Gordon Reid Hale, Jr. (that's me)
>
>Tear me up folks.
>
>
>Gordon Reid Hale
>Grand Prairie, Texas
>
>
>Does someone have any idea how crazy these names have to a spell check
>program?
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
davt...@juno.com
The portion of the "line" from the emperor Claudius I (a.k.a. Tiberius
Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus, b. in what is now Lyons, France, 1 Aug.
10 BCE; d. Rome, 13 Oct. 54 CE, memorable to many people because of
Robert Graves' novels and the BBC miniseries, I, CLAUDIUS) down to Niall
of the Nine Hostages, who lived roughly around the turn of the 5th
Century, is based, at least in part, on Geoffrey of Monmouth's HISTORIA
REGUM BRITANNIAE, which--although it MAY contain snippets of authentic
folk memory (or what have you) INTERMITTENTLY--hasn't as a unit been
taken seriously as an historical source in a very long time.
In other words, while both Claudius and Niall are historical, of course,
the purported link between them isn't. In any event, only having eight
generations or so in 350 years or so is far-fetched.
Now for "Old KIng Coel." Coel Hen (who seems to be the ruler ultimately
connected, however vaguely, with the nursery rhyme) ruled along Hadrian's
Wall in the first quarter of the 5th Century. Geoffrey of Monmouth
(again!) lists an earlier Coel, whom he names as son of Marius and father
of Lucius, sometime during the 2nd Century, and this Coel MAY be
Geoffrey's version of Cogidubnus, who does seem to have existed and to
have gotten along well with the Romans, but this is no more than
conjecture.
David Teague
________________________________________________________________
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Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>Here's my list:
>
>Claudius I of Rome
>Arviragus (married Claudius' daughter Venissa)
>Marius (Meric)
>Coel
>Althildis of Britain
>her son (name unknown)
>Aioffe King of Ireland
The is no genuine genealogy in the above "Generations"
>Muireadhach K. of Ireland
>Niall Noigillach "of the nine hostages"
The traditional (but perhaps not historical) genealogy makes Niall the
grandson, not son, of Muiredach.
>Eoghanr King of Dalraide
Eogan son of Niall was not a king of "Dalraide" (whichever kingdom
that is intended to be). There were kingdoms named Dál Riata (or
Dalriada) and Dál nAraide, but Eogan was king of neither.
>Muireadhach of Ireland
Muiredach was not the father of Fergus.
>Fergus Mor Mac Earca King of Ireland and Scotland
>Donald I
>Eochaid II
>Gabhran of Scotland
>Eolhan of Scotland
>Eochaid III
>Donald II
>Donald III
>Aodh Hugh Fionn
>Eochaid IV
>Alpin King of Scotland
This list from Fergus to Alpin is a very badly mangled attempt to give
the genealogy of the Dalriadan kings, apparently taken from one of the
poorer sources.
>Kenneth I McAlpin
>Constantine I King of Scotland
>Donald II
>Malcolm I
>Kenneth II
>Malcolm II
>Thora Donada (daughter of Malcolm) married Sigurd Earl of the Orkney Isles
>Thorfin the Dane
>Bardolf
>Akaris Fil Bardolf
>Bondo Fil Akaris
>Walter Fil Bondo De Washington
>Robert de Washington
These last few generations look fishy to me.
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Here's my list:
Stewart has already addressed the early generaitons, so I won't.
> Malcolm II
> Thora Donada (daughter of Malcolm) married Sigurd Earl of the Orkney Isles
> Thorfin the Dane
It has recently been proposed that Thorfinn's maternal
grandfather was Malcolm, sub-King of Moray (first cousin of
Macbeth, and not Malcolm II King of Scotland. However there are
problems with this alteration int he traditional interpretation,
and most scholars have not accepted it. That being said,
Thorfinn had no known son named Bardolf, nor is Bardolf a name
one would expect in the Orkney-Scandinavian context. I have
elsewhere seen this Bardolf attached as a bastard of one of the
Breton Counts, but I do not think there is any basis for that
claim either.. I do not know if Akaris Fitz Bardolf is an
authentic ancestor of the Washingtons, but my gut reaction is
that this too looks wrong.
> Bardolf
> Akaris Fil Bardolf
> Bondo Fil Akaris
> Walter Fil Bondo De Washington
> Robert de Washington
> etc....
taf
Reedpcgen
>>Frances Moss
>>John Brown
Since no one else has pointed this out, there are for some reason quite a few
false claims people make to connect New England immigrants to the family of
Lord North [for no good reason I can see--the worst being putting John North
(1615-1692?) of Farmington (who is thought to have married Mary Bird) into Lord
North and the Brockets of Brocket Hall, Herts.].
Could you give us a little more information about these three generations?
pcr
Alan B. Wilson
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I have
> elsewhere seen this Bardolf attached as a bastard of one of the
> Breton Counts, but I do not think there is any basis for that
> claim either..
>
>
> taf
But see Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, p. 28, "FitzHugh";
Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, i, p. 128; Complete Peerage, v, p. 416, note
d; Weis, Ancestral Roots, line 226. In J.S. Fletcher, The Cisterians in
Yorkshire, "Peter [de Quinciacus, a Cisterian monk from Normandy] made
application to Akarius Fitz-Bardolph, Lord of Ravensworth, a sub-feudatory
of Alan, Earl of Richmond. Akarius gave him a piece of land at a place
named Fors, in the valley of the Ure, in that part now called
Wensleydale."
In any event, I list this Bardolf as one of the half-brothers of the
Alans and Stephen of Richmond, and illegitimate son of count Eudes of
Penthievre (d. 1079).
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Renia
Complete Peerage, v, p 416, which you quote, shows Bardulf to be the brother
of Bodin (on p 17). Domesday Book, Yorkshire (Phillimore) says "Bodin and his
brother Bardulf were said to be illegitimate sons of Eudo de Penthievre, and
therefore half-brothers of Count Alan. Bodin later became a monk in St Mary's,
York, accompanied by an endowment from his brother (who may possibly have been
his heir). (VCH 157)."
CP x p 780, shows 8 of the sons of Eudo, but Bodin and Bardulf (not forgetting
Ribald) are not among them.
According to CP, p 417, Bodin held Ravensworth, (presumably inherited by
Bardulf). DB Yorkshire confirms this, not to mention other lands in Count
Alan's neck of the woods. Bardulf held no lands in Yorkshire at the time of
DB. (Could he and Ribald be one and the same? According to DB Yorkshire,
Ribald (who held land there) was "Probably the 'Ribald, brother of Count Alan'
who gave land to St Mary's York, before 1112, for the souls of his wife
Beatrice and Count Alan." This links back to Bodin, a monk in St Mary's.)
Renia
William Addams Reitwiesner
Let me back up a couple of generations:
+Frances Brocket m. 1600 Dudley North, 3rd Baron North (d. 1666)
+Dudley North 4th Baron North (d. 1677)
+Lady Jane Bridgett North
+Frances Moss
+John Brown
The 4th Baron North married Anne Montagu and had six sons and four
daughters. The daughters were:
1. Mary North m. Sir William Spring 2nd Bt
2. Anne North m. Robert Foley of Stourbridge
3. Elizabeth North m1. Sir Robert Wiseman m2. William Paston 2 E Yarmouth
4. Christian North m. Sir George Wenyeve
There was no daughter named "Jane" or "Bridgett", and there was no daughter
who married a Moss. It appears that even the connection into the Norths is
fictitious.
>Tear me up folks.
Okay.
Alan B. Wilson
I neglected to mention Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, i, 168, where
she lists Bodin: "Half-brother of Count Alan Rufus, full brother of
Bardulf, and natural son of Eudo brother of Alan III of Brittany. He was
described as brother of Bardulf in a charter of Odo camerarius (EYC v, no.
279). He gave his land to Bardulf when, together with Ribald, another of
Count Eudo's sons, he became a monk of St Mary's, York. See EYC v, p.
199."
In John Weaver's history of Middleham Castle he says: "Before 1086
Middleham was granted by Alan the Red to his brother Ribald and the
property remained with his descendants until 1270 when the last owner of
this line, Ralph FitzRanulph, died without a male heir. . . .In 1270
Middleham passed by marriage to Robert de Nevill through his wife mary,
daughter and heiress of Ralph FitzRanulph of Middleham."