Subject: The Joyeuse Ancestry of the Couvents

[JPD]

It has come to my attention that Charles Cawley of Medieval Lands has criticized the Anne Couvent royal gateway, in particular, the connection of the Joyeuse de Champigneulle family to the Joyeuse de Grandpré family. I have prepared a rebuttal of his criticism entitled “The Joyeuse Ancestry of the Couvents.” It is posted to https://habitant.org/joyeuse/index.htm. In addition, I have also included the following documents: (1) Roland-Yves Gagné and Laurent Kokanosky, “The Origins of Phillipe Amiot (Hameau), His Spouse Anne Couvent, and Their Nephew Toussaint Ledran,” Michigan's Habitant Heritage, courtesy of the French-Canadian Heritage Society of Michigan; (2) the 1733 Joyeuse Genealogy, found in the papers of Pierre Hanonnet, royal notary, courtesy of the Departmental Archives of Meuse; (3) the 1733 Proxy Letter attached to the genealogy; and (4) a transcription of the 1733 Joyeuse Genealogy and Proxy Letter, done by Baptiste Étienne. This should be all the information you need to judge for yourself the validity of the connection between these two Joyeuse families.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

My response from our Facebook group French Canadian Royal Gateways:

After reading The Joyeuse Ancestry of the Couvents by John P. DuLong I recommend everyone who is a descendant of Anne Couvent read it. This amazingly well prepared research documents a full throated response to the questions out there regarding the de Joyeuse and des Ancherins lineages from Francois de Joyeuse to include Charles Cawley and others.

I am more than satisfied that what remains at this present moment gives us all confidence to call ourselves descendants of Robert de Joyeuse. Thank you so much John for this gift, and I call it a gift because it is rare to find someone who takes in all of the criticisms and responds with such a mastery of analytical research.

Thank you!!!

Darrell

[Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57]

Darrell, Thanks for letting us know this. What a great development, after the exchanges we had on the other thread recently about evidence for Anne Couvent gateway. Eager to read the new information!

[Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57]

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:03:06 PM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

Darrell, Have read through Mr. DeLong's paper and feel great on two levels.

First, as a descendent of Anne Couvent, I'd been mourning the possible loss -- with the criticisms of Mr. Gagne and Mr. Kokanosky's work -- of a possible royal connection (this is my sole known line with a possible such connection). While remaining open to any future developments either way, it's exciting.

Second, absorbing Mr. DeLong's material is not only interesting but so instructive to a novice genealogical researcher: the history -- national, regional, and local, and how these bring context to, and illuminate, the study of a medieval family. The thorough, logical, and nuanced consideration. And the explicit acknowledgement of the legitimacy of Mr. Cawley's and others' concerns.

Thanks again, Darrell, for your attention to this. And if John DeLong is here, thank you for your work and its great example for those starting to learn how to think "genealogically."

What a pleasure!

Jinny

[JPD]

Not to be too petty, but my surname is DuLong, not Delong.

[Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 6:14:12 PM UTC-5, JPD wrote:
> Not to be too petty, but my surname is DuLong, not Delong.

Misspelling names is a particular pet peeve of mine! My apologies, John.

[JPD]

No problem. I am a bad speller now in English and French.

By the way, I hope to post an English translation of the 1733 genealogy of the Joyeuse family by next week. I am slowly working my way through the translation done by a friend adding substantive footnotes.

[Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57]

On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 11:44:20 AM UTC-5, JPD wrote:
> No problem. I am a bad speller now in English and French.
>
> By the way, I hope to post an English translation of the 1733 genealogy of the Joyeuse family by next week. I am slowly working my way through the translation done by a friend adding substantive footnotes.

John, Am so glad to hear this translation will come out soon. Am looking forward to reading it. My French is miniscule and what there is of it is rusty...

[JPD]

Today I posted an English translation of the 1733 de Joyeuse genealogy. You can find it at: http://habitant.org/joyeuse/1733_Joyeuse_genalogy_translation.pdf.

I want to thank Paul-Antoine Lavoie for doing this translation. He worked off the transcription done by Baptiste Étienne. I have made some editorial changes, mostly formatting, and added explanatory footnotes. Frankly, I think this is the sort of document that when I return to it in a couple of months I will see more things that need to be explained or clarified. Please do let me know if you spot any mistakes.

I am confident that between my rebuttal and the evidence posted on my website that all of you can now judge for yourself whether or not François de Joyeuse was indeed the prodigal son of Robert de Joyeuse, Count of Grandpré, and Marguerite Barbançon.

We owe a debt of gratitude to Roland-Yves Gagné and Laurent Kokanosky for all their hard and exhaustive research they did on the Amiots, Couvents, Longuevals, Joyeuses, and Ancherins families.

Enjoy.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

John,

I have a question about one of the armorial lineages you have, namely the one for Thibault I, King of Navarre. The one marriage which I don't see the sourcing for is here:

"Gaucher de Châtillon, lord of La Fère and St-Lambert, viscount of Blaigny, and Jeanne de Coucy, dame of Havrincourt, married about 1344/1345."

So far the only source I have found is Duchesne from Medieval Lands:

Gaucher of Châtillon (-after 10 Mar 1404, bur Igny) Mr JEANNE, daughter of --- (-bur Igny). Duchesne says that “François d'Allouette” records that Gaucher married “ [a] daughter of Enguerran Seigneur de Coucy and Catherine of Austria” and that “some unprinted memoirs bear that she was from the House of Piqueny ”, noting that the couple founded “ La Chapelle de Fère ” at Igny (no date specified). Duchesne records that and was buried at Igny with his wife

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#GuyChatillondied1362

The problem is that it contradicts him saying that Jeanne de Coucy married Charles de Châtillon:

CHARLES de Châtillon (-1401) m firstly JEANNE de Coucy , daughter of ENGUERRAND [VI] Seigneur de Coucy & his wife Katharina of Austria. Duchesne notes that “ François l'Allouette attributes to him one of the daughters of Enguerran lord of Coucy and Catherine of Austria as his wife”, called “Jeanne de Coucy by some Memoirs ” [without specifying which], but comments that “ je n 'en ay vu de tiltre”. The accuracy of this information cannot be guaranteed.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#CharlesChatillondied1401

Also for Jeanne de Coucy, wife of Charles:

de Sainte Marie, Père Anselme, and Du Fourny. Histoire généalogique Et Chronologique De La Maison Royale De France: Des Pairs, Grands Officiers De La Couronne Et De La Maison Du Roy, Et Des Anciens Barons Du Royaume ....Tome 6, troisième édition. p114. Paris, France: La Compagnie des Libraires, 1730.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZdlEAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Darrell

[JPD]

Regarding the armorial lineages for Thibault I, King of Navarre. Checking my memory, I believe I relied on Père Anselme’s Maison royale de France for generation XII. However, I did not use the citation you give, that is, 6:114, but rather 6:125-126. This indicates that Gaucher de Châtillon, lord of La Fère and St-Lambert, viscount of Blaigny, was married to Jeanne de Coucy, the daughter of Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy and Marle, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol. However, when you check 8:544-545 under Coucy, Jeanne is not listed as a child of Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol.

I also checked Duchesne, Preuves de l'histoire des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, Gand, et Coucy (1631), and find that Jeanne is not mentioned as a child of Enguerrand VI de Coucy and Catherine of Austria or of Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol (see pp. 260-261 and 264). She is not mentioned either in Europäische Stammtafeln, 7, part 2:80-82 under Coucy but is found listed without parents on 7, part 2:19, under Châtillon-sur-Marne.

I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.

I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage accordingly.

The important point is the Jeanne de Châtillon, the wife of Jean VI de Ghistelles, is still the daughter of Gaucher de Châtillon and the granddaughter of Guy de Châtillon and Marie de Lorraine.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

> I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.
>
> I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage accordingly.
>
> The important point is the Jeanne de Châtillon, the wife of Jean VI de Ghistelles, is still the daughter of Gaucher de Châtillon and the granddaughter of Guy de Châtillon and Marie de Lorraine.

Thank you, John. I thought it was odd that the references to Jeanne de Coucy jumped all over the place. I'm trying to connect the WikiTree profiles of Jeanne de Châtillon backwards and create them as needed. I had no issues placing her within the de Châtillon line but her mother was the only head scratcher at this time.

If I run across any other snags I'll discuss them here, but for now I don't see any for now.

Thanks!

Darrell

[Peter Stewart]

On 12-Mar-23 8:37 AM, JPD wrote:
> Regarding the armorial lineages for Thibault I, King of Navarre. Checking my memory, I believe I relied on Père Anselme’s Maison royale de France for generation XII. However, I did not use the citation you give, that is, 6:114, but rather 6:125-126. This indicates that Gaucher de Châtillon, lord of La Fère and St-Lambert, viscount of Blaigny, was married to Jeanne de Coucy, the daughter of Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy and Marle, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol. However, when you check 8:544-545 under Coucy, Jeanne is not listed as a child of Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol.
>
> I also checked Duchesne, Preuves de l'histoire des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, Gand, et Coucy (1631), and find that Jeanne is not mentioned as a child of Enguerrand VI de Coucy and Catherine of Austria or of Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol (see pp. 260-261 and 264). She is not mentioned either in Europäische Stammtafeln, 7, part 2:80-82 under Coucy but is found listed without parents on 7, part 2:19, under Châtillon-sur-Marne.
>
> I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.
>
> I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage accordingly.

According to Maxime de Sars in *Le Laonnais féodal*, vol. 4 (1931) p.
209, Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol did
have a daughter named Jeanne, but she was not married - she was a nun at
Notre-Dame de Soissons, where she died on 6 July 1379.

She had a brother named Jean (died without issue after 1350) who was
seigneur of Havrincourt.

Any information ascribed to François de l'Alouëte, a 16th-century lawyer
in Sedan, should be treated with extreme caution - he called the
Austrian wife of Enguerrand VI of Coucy (numbering him V) alternately
Catherine and Marguerite, says that he died in 1344 (actually 1346),
that his wife was buried with him at Ourscamp (she married a second
husband after his death and was buried at Königsfelden), and that they
had four sons and five daughters (actually only one son is recorded
apart from l'Alouëte's inventions).

Peter Stewart

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[Peter Stewart]

Her epitaph can be found here (no. 1219)
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k415622q/f578.item.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 7:33:35 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
> According to Maxime de Sars in *Le Laonnais féodal*, vol. 4 (1931) p.
>209, Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol did
>have a daughter named Jeanne, but she was not married - she was a nun at
>Notre-Dame de Soissons, where she died on 6 July 1379.

I will create a source for this information and add it to the research notes to prevent any duplication of this error.

Thank you!

Darrell

I removed my previous messages relating to the error after the information Peter just presented.

[JPD]

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 10:39:29 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
> Her epitaph can be found here (no. 1219)
> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k415622q/f578.item.
> Peter Stewart

Thank you for posting this. I would say this removes her from being the wife of Gaucher de Châtillon.

Duchesne, according to Medieval Lands, also mentioned she might be from the maison de Piqueny. I wonder if this is supposed to be the Picquigny family of Picardy?

[JPD]

Given the lack of evidence regarding Jeanne, the wife of Gaucher de Châtillon, I think the best thing to do on the armorial lineage is to remove the Coucy arms and just identify her as of unknown or uncertain parentage. The connection to Thibault IV, King of Navarre, does not run through her anyway, but through her husband.

I wonder if something regarding Jeanne could be found in the Cabinet de titres. However, I imagine the Châtillon and Coucy dossiers are huge and would take some time to go through. And likely the most relevant evidence would probably be in the Pièces originales which are not all digitized. Frankly, I am happy just leaving her a mystery woman. I have enough other genealogical problems to solve and keep my busy.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 10:12:01 AM UTC-4, JPD wrote:
> Given the lack of evidence regarding Jeanne, the wife of Gaucher de Châtillon, I think the best thing to do on the armorial lineage is to remove the Coucy arms and just identify her as of unknown or uncertain parentage. The connection to Thibault IV, King of Navarre, does not run through her anyway, but through her husband.

I created her profile already as Jeanne Unknown and added all of the information presented here in the research notes.

This is how I phrased it:

"Jeanne's parents are unknown, and there is no concrete evidence that she fits in with the de Coucy lineage that has been identified. See the Research Notes section for conflated Jeanne de Coucy individuals."

Thanks again!

Darrell