Children of the 10th Lord Clifford
Brad Verity
Richard T. Spence, a 1994 biography of Henry, 10th Lord Clifford. It
contains several genealogical details left out of other Clifford
articles and books, including CP and "House of Clifford".
Following is a list of the marriages and children of the 10th Lord
Clifford.
By an unknown mistress (or mistresses) prior to his first marriage
(Spence, p. 18: "How Henry spent his early manhood, from 1473 to 1485,
is a matter for conjecture. Without an estate of his own, he could at
best have managed his mother's manors, essential experience for a man
who, had his circumstances not changed by then, would have inherited
most of them on her death in 1493. He fathered at least one natural
son, Anthony, and possible other children during these Londesborough
years."):
1) ANTHONY CLIFFORD, esquire, of Idle, born by 1485,officer in Craven,
held manorial courts at Barden in 1512, master forester of Craven,
stood surety for 500 marks for a recognizance of his father 8 Feb.
1509, steward of the Clifford manors of Cowling, Grassington and Sutton
1502
2) ELIZABETH CLIFFORD, born by 1485, married 1st, by 1510 (her marriage
portion was 600 marks, and Lord Clifford bore 'all costs and charges of
the dyner' the day before her wedding (Spence, p. 33)), Sir Ralph
Bowes, of Airton, later of Streatlam Castle, co. Durham (born by 1485;
died April 1516), second son of Sir Ralph Bowes (d. 1512) of Streatlam
and Margery Conyers of South Cowton, and had two daughters (the elder
one was a mother herself in 1532) and one (posthumous) son. Dame
Elizabeth married 2nd, William Tonge, of Eccleshall, and had another
son and another daughter. Date of death not known.
[Reasons for making her illegitimate: chronology, low marriage portion,
not mentioned among the children of Lord Clifford and Anne St. John in
the c.1505 Henry VII Relations pedigree.]
The 10th Lord Clifford married "early in 1487" (Spence, p. 25), Anne
St. John. "He gave her a good jointure, the manors of Silsden, Stirton
and Thorlby, the Skipton demesne closes of Holme and Skibeden and the
manor of King's Meaburne in Westmorland. The draft copy of this is
dated 10 January and the indenture which names Lady Anne 25 July."
(Ibid.). Lady Anne was alive on 12 March 1507, when she and Lord
Clifford were received into the fraternity of Gisborough Priory, and
died about 1508. Issue:
3) HENRY CLIFFORD, born 1487/8, contracted in 1488-89 to marry Jane
Stanley, daughter of George Stanley, Lord Strange, heir to the earldom
of Derby and step-brother of Henry VII; died young before 1493.
(Spence, pp. 25-27) Jane later married Sir Robert Sheffield, of
Butterwick, Lincolnshire.
4) JOAN CLIFFORD, born about 1489/90, married 20 August 1509, Sir John
Huddleston of Millom Castle, Cumberland (born about 1488; died 12
January 1547), only son of Sir John Huddleston (d. 1512) of Millom and
Joan Stapleton. The young couple were enfeoffed with the manor of
Cotherston, Yorkshire, to them and their heirs, by the elder Sir John
Huddleston. Dame Joan died without issue by 1513.
5) MABEL CLIFFORD, born about 1491/92, lady-in-waiting to Katherine of
Aragon, married at Skipton Castle November 1513, Sir William
Fitzwilliam (born about 1490; died 15 October 1542), 3rd son of Sir
Thomas Fitzwilliam of Aldwark, Yorkshire and Lucy Neville; created Earl
of Southampton 18 October 1537. Countess Mabel died without issue
August 1550.
6) HENRY CLIFFORD, born about 1493, married 1st, 28 February 1506 (date
of contract), Margaret Talbot, daughter of George Talbot, 4th Earl of
Shrewsbury and Anne Hastings. She died young. He married 2ndly, 2
February 1513 (date of contract), Margaret Percy, eldest daughter of
Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland and Catherine Spencer. He was
created Earl of Cumberland 18 June 1525, and died 22 April 1542, having
had two sons and three daughters.
7) ANNE CLIFFORD, born about 1495/96, married 1st, by 1514, Robert
Clifton, of Clifton, Nottinghamshire (d. 3 September 1517), son and
heir of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton and Agnes Griffith, and had one
son (born March 1516) and one daughter. Dame Anne married 2ndly, about
1520, Ralph Melford, esquire, of Arnold, Nottinghamshire (d. April
1546), and died before 1546, having had further issue, at least one
son.
8) Sir THOMAS CLIFFORD, born 1500/05, of Burnside, Westmorland, married
about 1528, Lucy Browne (died November 1557), widow of Sir John Cutte,
of Horham Hall in Thaxted, Essex (d. 1528), and daughter of Sir Anthony
Browne and Lucy Neville, and half-sister of William Fitzwilliam, Earl
of Southampton above. Sir Thomas died 26 March 1543, and had one
daughter.
9) ELEANOR CLIFFORD, born by 1505, youngest child, married 1st, 1526
(Papal dispensation 18 May), as his 2nd wife, Sir Ninian Markenfield,
of Markenfield, Yorkshire (died 25 March 1528), son of Sir Thomas
Markenfield and Eleanor Conyers of Hornby. Dame Eleanor married 2nd,
as his 3rd wife, Sir John Constable, of Burton Constable, Yorkshire
(born October 1479; died 1537), eldest son of Ralph Constable of Burton
Constable and Anne Eure, and died without issue November 1540.
By an unknown mistress during his first marriage, the 10th Lord
Clifford was said to have had two or three illegitimate children. As
she is not listed as a daughter of the 10th Lord Clifford and Anne St.
John in the c.1505 Henry VII Relations pedigree, one of these
illegitimate children was likely:
10) MARGARET CLIFFORD, born by 1500, married at Barden Tower (her
marriage portion was £500 - Spence p. 33) 1516 (licence 6 January),
Sir Cuthbert Radcliffe, of Dilston, Northumberland (born by 1491; died
20 July 1545), son of Sir Edward Radcliffe of Cartington and Anne
Cartington, and died about 1550, having had four sons and three
daughters.
The 10th Lord Clifford married 2ndly, about July 1511 (jointure dated
11 July), Florence Pudsey, widow of Sir Thomas Talbot, of Bashall in
Craven, and daughter of Henry Pudsey, of Berforth, Yorkshire and
Margaret Conyers of Hornby. Spence p. 54: "His father [10th Lord] made
Lady Florence, a youngish woman, a large jointure on 11 July 1511 of
the manors of Brougham, adjoining the castle, Bongate, Flakebrigg and
Skattergate, which were Appleby Castle's lands, and the forest of
Mallerstang." Issue:
11) DOROTHY CLIFFORD, born by 1515, married 1528 (Spence - p. 42), Sir
Hugh Lowther, of Lowther Hall, Westmorland (born 1505; died 1546), son
and heir of Sir John Lowther of Lowther, and died 13 September 1562,
having had issue (her eldest son was born 14 January 1532).
12), 13) Sons who died young
The 10th Lord's second marriage, like his first, soon proved
incompatible. Spence p. 56: "In 1521 Lady Florence brought a suit
against him in the ecclesiastical court at York for restitution of her
conjugal rights, Lord Henry refusing to let her live and sleep with him
at Barden. As in so many matrimonial cases it was fractious with old
sores publicly aired notwithstanding the inevitable gossip, glee and
disapproval. The Shepherd in turn accused Lady Florence of adultery
from 1511 to 1514 with his trusted officer Roger Wharton, who at that
time had charge of the nursery. This was a serious imputation which
would also throw doubt on the paternity of his children. During the
years in question, the Shepherd had been in his late fifties, with a
much younger wife and absent for longish spells as on the Flodden
campaign. When questioned by the ecclesiastical lawyer...Roger
repeated what he had already said to Lord Henry. It was a rather lame
excuse combined with a devastating riposte. He said he would never
deny it 'ffor a man may be in bedd with a woman and yett doe noe hurte
And your lordship may aske Jayne Brown And she can tell your lordship
all togedder.' What innuendo lay behind linking the Shepherd with
Jayne only those present would have understood. But it killed the case
stone dead."
The 10th Lord died on 23 April 1523. His widow Lady Florence had a
third marriage arranged for her by Henry VIII to Lord Richard Grey,
younger son of the 1st Marquess of Dorset. She died in 1558.
Of the children of the 10th Lord and Anne St. John, Spence says, p. 27:
"Their second son, another Henry, born in 1493, survived as did Thomas,
Mabel, Eleanor, Anne and Joan." He does not explain where daughter
Elizabeth came from, but does include her among the children of the
10th Lord's first marriage in the genealogical chart, leaving out Joan.
He also makes no mention of the maternity of the 10th Lord's daughter
Margaret, nor does he include her in the genealogy chart, which also
leaves off bastard son Anthony Clifford. As we now know Joan was a
separate daughter from Elizabeth (there is no way that Joan, married in
1509, could have been the daughter of the 1st Earl of Cumberland and
Margaret Percy, married in 1513), it is likely Elizabeth was also
illegitimate.
Cheers,
----------Brad
Brad Verity
> I suspect you were aware of this all along.
Aware of what - Spence's book? Annette Hudleston Harwood mentioned it
to me last month. I ordered it through amazon.co.uk, and received it
last Friday.
> Silly rabbit: tricks are
> for kids.
What trick do you think I pulled? And why do you think I would want -
or need - to pull a trick?
---------Brad
WJho...@aol.com
royald...@hotmail.com writes:
<< 2) ELIZABETH CLIFFORD, born by 1485, married 1st, by 1510 (her marriage
portion was 600 marks, and Lord Clifford bore 'all costs and charges of
the dyner' the day before her wedding (Spence, p. 33)), Sir Ralph
Bowes, of Airton, later of Streatlam Castle, co. Durham (born by 1485;
died April 1516), second son of Sir Ralph Bowes (d. 1512) of Streatlam
and Margery Conyers of South Cowton, and had two daughters (the elder
one was a mother herself in 1532) and one (posthumous) son. Dame
Elizabeth married 2nd, William Tonge, of Eccleshall, and had another
son and another daughter. Date of death not known.
[Reasons for making her illegitimate: chronology, low marriage portion,
not mentioned among the children of Lord Clifford and Anne St. John in
the c.1505 Henry VII Relations pedigree.] >>
What is the evidence that she and her husband were both born by 1485 ?
If the only evidence is the supposition that she was illegitimate and the
further supposition that this meant she was born before her father's marriage to
Anne St John, then it has to be rejected for want of evidence.
Will Johnson
Brad Verity
> I dunno, still seems sort of fishy. Why would you argue so forcefully
> that the wife of Ralph Bowes was illegitimate (something there was
> little evidence for), wait a while, then produce a book that supported
> your claim? I wonder ...
Dear John,
If I understand you correctly, you're insinuating that I discover a
fact (or evidence), then sit on and/or hide the source of the fact.
Meanwhile, I post to the newsgroup that I've come up with a new idea,
wait weeks, then post the original source that backs up my new idea?
Forgive my bluntness, but I find that whole tactic to be unethical and
the insinuation that I've adopted it in this case to be a little
paranoid.
I now want to be clear: I haven't in this instance (10th Lord
Clifford's Children),or any previous topic I've posted on, done any
such thing.
Nor do I feel I was arguing forcefully in the post I made some weeks
back that either Elizabeth Clifford, wife of Ralph Bowes, or Margaret
Clifford, wife of Cuthbert Radcliffe, was illegitimate IIRC, I stated
they were probably legitimate. What I pointed out was their lack of
mention in the list of children of Clifford and Anne St. John in the
pedigree of c.1505. Further digging into published secondary sources
AFTER I made that post hasn't led to any conclusion, but has, if
anything, increased the possibility that they may not have been Anne
St. John's daughters.
The sources Dr. Spence used for his book need to be examined. If
nothing else, one of them should provide the date of Elizabeth
Clifford's marriage to Bowes. Dr. Spence cites his sources in a
similar fashion to HOP - a series of facts in a paragraph, footnoted
with a list of sources. The source that Spence used for the fact that
Lord Clifford provided Elizabeth a marriage portion of 600 marks and
paid for the dinner the day before her wedding could one of the
following:
1) 'Books of Record', II, fol. 528 [which is Cumbria County Record
Office, Kendal, Hothfield MSS, WD/Hoth]
2) J. Nicholson and R. Burn, 'The History and Antiquities of the
Counties of Westmorland and Cumberland', 2 vols (1777), I, p. 387.
3) 'Memorials of the Rebellion of 1569', ed. Sir Cuthbert Sharp (1840),
p. 369.
I have seen none of the above, nor am I sitting on evidence from any of
them.
Cheers, -----------Brad
Brad Verity
>What is the evidence that she and her husband were both born by 1485 ?
Absolutely none.
>If the only evidence is the supposition that she was illegitimate and the
>further supposition that this meant she was born before her father's
>marriage to
>Anne St John, then it has to be rejected for want of evidence.
Fine. Elizabeth could have been born at any point up to 1505. The fact
that she was a grandmother in 1532 makes it unlikely she was born later than
1505.
Cheers, ------------Brad
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mj...@btinternet.com
Brad Verity schrieb:
> John Brandon wrote:
>
> > I dunno, still seems sort of fishy. Why would you argue so forcefully
> > that the wife of Ralph Bowes was illegitimate (something there was
> > little evidence for), wait a while, then produce a book that supported
> > your claim? I wonder ...
>
> Dear John,
>
> If I understand you correctly, you're insinuating that I discover a
> fact (or evidence), then sit on and/or hide the source of the fact.
> Meanwhile, I post to the newsgroup that I've come up with a new idea,
> wait weeks, then post the original source that backs up my new idea?
>
> Forgive my bluntness, but I find that whole tactic to be unethical and
> the insinuation that I've adopted it in this case to be a little
> paranoid.
I would go further, and say that the inference that Brad is a liar was
both offensive, and demeaning to its author.
mj...@btinternet.com
John Brandon wrote:
> Which dum-dum has gone through this thread, rating my posts 1 star and
> Brad's 5 stars? As I noted before, people, "tricks are for kids" ...
I did, actually - except that I haven't rated all of Brad Verity's
posts on this thread (or elsewhere). I rated his original post highly
because I found it informative and interesting. Your responses were
illogical and lacking in relevant content, so I rated them accordingly.
Perhaps the ratings reflect the fact that Brad's post was detailed,
factual and relevant, and did not employ terminology such as "dum-dum",
"silly rabbit" and "tricks are for kids" - these do not particularly
assist in a quest to be taken seriously on a forum intended for adults
posting about mediaeval genealogy.
Regards
Michael
mj...@btinternet.com
John Brandon wrote:
> mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > factual and relevant, and did not employ terminology such as "dum-dum",
> > "silly rabbit" and "tricks are for kids" - these do not particularly
> > assist in a quest to be taken seriously on a forum intended for adults
> > posting about mediaeval genealogy.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Michael
>
> Oh, and inanely assigning or subtracting gold stars assists in such a
> quest (even assuming one was on this quest)?
Given the reaction, I can only assume that they have indeed served the
purpose for which they are intended: a suggestion that those rated
lowly lift their game. If the inanity offends your careful
sensibilities, you could always try to stop looking at, and posting
about, the ratings.
By the way, I have rated some of your useful genealogical posts quite
highly.
MA-R
Todd A. Farmerie
> Which dum-dum has gone through this thread, rating my posts 1 star and
> Brad's 5 stars? As I noted before, people, "tricks are for kids" ...
>
Setting aside the particular complaint let me point out a few things.
First, this rating system is a Google Groups phenomenon. Anyone
participating in GEN-MEDIEVAL/soc.gen.med through USENET or the rootsweb
email list are not even aware of these ratings - and that is for the
best. This rating system is one of the more inane things Google has
done. Anyone who understands USENET knows that there is more heat than
light at times, and this provides just another avenue for tit-for-tat
pissing matches. Further, it has been found that on Amazon, which
similarly uses user ratings and reviews, a reasonably large number of
the positive reviews for books are actually written either by the
author, friends of the author, or members of the marketing department of
the publisher. It almost goes without saying that the system will be
abused with vendetta ratings, partisan ratings, etc., not to mention
that different people have different criteria for rating, accuracy being
only one possibility (or more appropriately, perceived accuracy, which
may bear no resemblance to actual accuracy). Regarding accuracy, it is
not subject to evaluation by popular vote. If a post disproves a
cherished royal descent, how do you think those thereby losing their
'valued' connection are going to rate the post?
In summary, these ratings are generally valueless, and are best ignored.
taf
Brad Verity
> What is the evidence that she and her husband were both born by 1485 ?
Absolutely none.
> If the only evidence is the supposition that she was illegitimate and the
> further supposition that this meant she was born before her father's marriage to
> Anne St John, then it has to be rejected for want of evidence.
Fine. Elizabeth could have been born at any point up to 1505. I
believe the fact that she was a grandmother in 1532 makes a later
birthdate for her unlikely.
Cheers, ---------Brad