Llewellyn ap Iorwerth's mother a Corbet?
Todd A. Farmerie
of the Corbet family. While her analysis of that question is
inadequate, I was interested to see an unexpected claim.
On p. 9, she states the following:
"Although Robert (Corbet) was unquestionably related through family ties
to Gwynwynwyn, Prince of Powis, he also seems to have been related to
another and even more powerful Welsh prince, Llewellyn ap Iorwerth -
also known as Llewellyn the Great. Sometime between 1199 and 1211,
Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his relation and
friend and that Walter was the brother of William Corbet, who was
Llewellyn's uncle ("frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei")."
for which she cites Eyton, 6:160 and Dugdale's Monasticon, 6:497.
After discussing the identity of Walter and William, she concludes:
"Because Llewellyn's mysterious mother is more likely to have been a
woman in her teens or twenties in 1173 than a woman of more advanced
years. I think it highly probable that she was Robert's sister rather
than his aunt. Thus it would seem that Robert was not only the
father-in-law of the prince of Powis, but the uncle of the first man who
could justifiably be called the Prince of Wales."
Needless to say, this conclusion flies in the face of the "established"
Welsh pedigrees, which show Llewellyn to be maternal grandson of Madog
ap Maredudd. Other possible connections involving multiple marriages
and half-siblings are equally difficult.
Has this claimed Corbet relationship been discussed in the context of
the welsh genealogies?
taf
Stewart Baldwin
What evidence does Meisel give that Llywelyn's mother was a Corbet,
other than the fact that he referred to a Corbet as an uncle? That is
clearly not sufficient to get the conclusion (but it is the kind of
conclusion that you often see from people who are sloppy with their
source materials). Does she even mention what the Welsh sources say
about Llywelyn's mother, and give reasons why she does not accept
their account? (Does the fact that she referred to Llywelyn's mother
as "mysterious" mean that she didn't even know what the Welsh sources
had to say about this?)
It seems to me that the context of Llywelyn's statement "frater
Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei" might indicate that William was married
to an aunt of Llywelyn, for otherwise, why wouldn't Llywelyn refer to
Walter as "avunculus mei" (my uncle) rather than the more awkward "the
brother of my uncle"? (It will be a few days until my next trip to
the closest known copy of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, so I am unable
to check the possibilities at the moment.)
In addition, the Welsh evidence making Llywelyn the son of a daughter
of Madog ap Maredudd, while not ideal, is pretty strong. The
statement appears in numerous Welsh genealogical manuscripts, of which
the earliest is Jesus College MS. 20 (edited in Bartrum's "Early Welsh
Genealogical Tracts"), section 29, which states "Llewelyn m. Marereda
merch Madawc m. Maredud" immediately following section 28, which is
Llywelyn's paternal ancestry ("Llywelyn m. Iorwerth m. Ewein Gwyned m.
Gruffud m. Cynan"). In his introduction to the manuscript, Bartrum
states that the latest view is that the manuscript was written by
somebody who learned how to write ca. 1340, but that the source on
which the manuscript was based was written prior to 1200 (based on the
orthography of the surviving text). The fact that Llywelyn ap
Iorwerth was the latest person mentioned in the Jesus College
genealogies also supports the view that it was originally written down
during his lifetime, making it a good source for the identity of his
mother.
Finally, I should note that the statement that Llywelyn "the first man
who could justifiably be called the Prince of Wales" makes me wonder
about Meisel's knowledge of Welsh history. Two centuries earlier,
Gruffudd ap Llywelyn (d. 1063) ruled all of Wales, which is more than
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (d. 1240) ever did.
Stewart Baldwin
Reedpcgen
Canons by "Lewelinus fililus Gervasii Dei gratia princeps Norwalliae" to the
Priory of Ratlingcope in Shropshire. The keys phrases (6:497) are:
...et pro loco et tempore consilium meum et subsidium, fratrem Walterum Corbet
conanicum diligatis; ...
...Noverit enim universitas vestra, quod ipse Walterus cognatus noster est et
familiarissimus; et pro religione sua et honestate, mihi multum dilectus, et
frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> What evidence does Meisel give that Llywelyn's mother was a Corbet,
> other than the fact that he referred to a Corbet as an uncle? That is
> clearly not sufficient to get the conclusion (but it is the kind of
> conclusion that you often see from people who are sloppy with their
> source materials). Does she even mention what the Welsh sources say
> about Llywelyn's mother, and give reasons why she does not accept
> their account? (Does the fact that she referred to Llywelyn's mother
> as "mysterious" mean that she didn't even know what the Welsh sources
> had to say about this?)
Her entire discussion focusses on the Corbet end - who is Walter and who
is William. She seems never to consider other possibilities, and never
discusses any literature regerding Llewellyn other than his relationship
to William Corbet.
> It seems to me that the context of Llywelyn's statement "frater
> Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei" might indicate that William was married
> to an aunt of Llywelyn, for otherwise, why wouldn't Llywelyn refer to
> Walter as "avunculus mei" (my uncle) rather than the more awkward "the
> brother of my uncle"? (It will be a few days until my next trip to
> the closest known copy of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, so I am unable
> to check the possibilities at the moment.)
She daoes state that Llewellyn calls Walter his relative and friend,
which suggests that the kinship applies to him as well, but I do not
have ready access to the original references (Eyton and Dugdale).
> Finally, I should note that the statement that Llywelyn "the first man
> who could justifiably be called the Prince of Wales" makes me wonder
> about Meisel's knowledge of Welsh history. Two centuries earlier,
> Gruffudd ap Llywelyn (d. 1063) ruled all of Wales, which is more than
> Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (d. 1240) ever did.
I had the same reaction to this statement.
taf
Stewart Baldwin
Welsh Frontier", which stated that Llywelyn ap
Iorwerth's mother was a Corbet, I have now had the
chance to examine a copy of Meisel's book, plus
Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies 300-1400" and Eyton's
"Antiquities of Shropshire", and I now have some further
comments on this claim.
Overall, I was not very impressed by the level of
genealogical scholarship shown by Meisel in her argument
about Llywelyn's mother. In addition to the comments I
made earlier, one thing that struck me on examining her
book is that her bibliography, which included a
considerable array of English primary sources, does not
list any of the Welsh Latin or vernacular annals, or the
Welsh genealogical manuscripts, and her main sources for
Welsh history seem to have been secondary sources like
Lloyd's History of Wales and Eyton. These annals and
genealogies are widely available in published versions,
with translations into English in the case of the
vernacular chronicles, so I think it is fair to ask why
someone writing a book with that title made no use of
these major Welsh sources. In addition, with regard to
the relationship which she was claiming between the
Corbetts and Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Eyton's "Antiquities
of Shropshire" vol. 6 p. 160 note 2 stated the
following:
Frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei. So then, in all
probability, the wife of Jorwerth [sic] Drwyn-dwn, and
the mother of Lewellyn, was a Corbet, and not that
"Marred, daughter of Madoc ap Meredyth, Prince of
Powys." of whom we hear elsewhere. I observe that
whenever their native Princes married Englishwomen, the
Welsh Genealogists were not only careful to suppress the
fact, but have usually supplied its place by a fiction.
I shall hereafter exhibit other instances of this."
Since Meisel cited Eyton as a source in her argument, we
may presume that she read the above footnote. Yet she
made no reference to this alternate claim regarding
Llywelyn's mother, instead referring to his mother as
"mysterious". In genealogical scholarship, knowingly
suppressing a source which conflicts with the argued
point is extremely inappropriate. The alternate account
should have at least been mentioned, and reasons given
for rejecting it. The fact that she would argue for the
identity of the mother of a Welsh ruler without ever
considering the Welsh evidence does not speak well for
her work.
Regarding Eyton's comments, I would like to see more
evidence for his claims. Does anybody happen to know
where he does that? I do not have the time to read all
twelve volumes of Eyton's work to find where he
discussed the matter. The Welsh genealogies need to be
used with caution, but I see nothing to justify the
sweeping generaliztions of Eyton's statement. Each such
case needs to be examined carefully on its own merits.
The question still remains what we should make of the
Llywelyn's statements that Walter Corbet was "frater
Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei." The Welsh genealogical
manuscripts, of which the earliest to make the claim is
Jesus College MS 20 (a fourteenth century manuscript
which is probably a copy of a manuscript made in
Llywelyn's lifetime, as discussed in my earlier
posting), state that Llywelyn's mother was the daughter
of Madog ap Maredudd of Powys. I checked Bartrum's
Welsh Genealogies, and found no indication that the
Welsh genealogical collections used by Bartrum could
explain Llywelyn's above statement. The most literal
interpretation of the Latin word "avunculus" is
"maternal uncle". Thus, we come to another problem in
Meisel's logic. She uses this statement in order to
make Llywelyn's mother into a Corbet, but then shifts
things by a generation, resulting in a claimed
relationship which does satisfy the term "avunculus".
If she was willing to admit that the term was not
necessarily to be interpreted literally, then why were
the alternate interpretations in which Llywelyn's mother
was not a Corbet not considered? As I pointed out in my
earlier posting, the fact that Llywelyn called Walter
the brother of his uncle, rather than the less awkward
uncle, suggests that William Corbet was Llywelyn's
"avunculus" but Walter was not. If William were married
to one of Llywelyn's maternal aunts, that would fit
Llywelyn's statement quite well. Also, even though the
Welsh sources apparently do not mention a daughter of
Madog ap Maredudd who married a Corbet, we cannot rule
out the existence of an otherwise unknown daughter who
did marry William (or a second marriage of a known
daughter to William). Thus, there is no inherent
contradiction between Llywelyn's statement and the Welsh
genealogies. I think this is by far the most likely
conclusion, although it would still be nice to see more
primary evidence which would help to explain the link
between Llywelyn and William Corbet.
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> As I pointed out in my
> earlier posting, the fact that Llywelyn called Walter
> the brother of his uncle, rather than the less awkward
> uncle, suggests that William Corbet was Llywelyn's
> "avunculus" but Walter was not.
She does say, "Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his
relative and friend and brother of William Corbet, who was Llewellyn's
uncle." For the latter statement, a quote of the original document is
provided. While the first half of this statement could be an over
interpretation of the William clause, it sounds to me like she has
another document (or another statement in the same document) in which
Walter is "relative and friend". If so, this would suggest that it was
not just William who was related (although then one would have to
explain why Walter was not "avunculus" of Llewellyn). I was wondering
if they could be maternal half-brothers of either Iorwerth of Margred.
taf
DKJ200
Sharon Penman in her "author's note" to "Here be Dragons" in 1984 wrote (of
Llywelyn ab Iorwerth):
"Little is known of Llewelyn's (sic) early years. It is believed he passed his
childhood in Powys and England; by his fifteenth year, he was challenging his
uncles for control of Gwynedd. Historians have long been cognizant of his
kinship to the Corbet family; he often stayed his hand, spared Corbet lands,
and a letter of his addresses William Corbet as "uncle". In the nineteenth
century, historians speculated that Llewelyn's mother might be a hitherto
unknown Corbet daughter, but Marared ferch Meredydd's (sic) identity has since
been established beyond any doubt. Marared must therefore have made a second
marriage after Iorwerth's death in 1174. In researching the Corbet family I was
able to eliminate Robert Corbet without difficulty. His brother William was the
"uncle" of Llewelyn's letter. Walter Corbet was a monk. By the process of
elimination, Hugh Corbet had to be Marared's second husband, Llewelyn's
stepfather."
She does not refer to any sources, except Bartrum.
David Jamieson
Cristopher Nash
>Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>>
>> As I pointed out in my
>> earlier posting, the fact that Llywelyn called Walter
>> the brother of his uncle, rather than the less awkward
>> uncle, suggests that William Corbet was Llywelyn's
>> "avunculus" but Walter was not.
>
>She does say, "Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his
>relative and friend and brother of William Corbet, who was Llewellyn's
>uncle." For the latter statement, a quote of the original document is
>provided. While the first half of this statement could be an over
>interpretation of the William clause, it sounds to me like she has
>another document (or another statement in the same document) in which
>Walter is "relative and friend". If so, this would suggest that ---
It seems to me we've now an occasion to put up or shut up on the ballyhoo'd
issue of genealogists' and historians' maintaining mutual walls of silence.
What do you say, friends? time to check with Meisels? Endure the
perennial charge of speculation in a Leibnizian monadic vacuum -- and
forgive me, I _value_ your thoughtful conjecture, Todd, after all -- or
dare some collaboration? Not quite ready to apologize for having
introduced this historian's text into recent genealogical discussion I'm
personally tired of the charge (and even more of the risk that it remain -
or become - true). I'm not interested in (re)starting a tedious debate
about this; either we open the exchange, put it to Meisels / Meisels'
stockholders and let this stand as a test model for future work, or we
don't.
Cris
DKJ200
"Here be Dragons" that her reference to Marared ferch Meredydd is a
mistake in the note: in the novel itself she is referred to as Marared
daughter of Prince Madog ap Meredydd".
According to my notes, Llywelyn ab Iorwerth was born in 1173 and
his father Iorwerth Drwyndwn died the following year.. A second
marriage for Marared would have been quite likely, wouldn't it?
David Jamieson
Stewart Baldwin
>Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>>
>> As I pointed out in my
>> earlier posting, the fact that Llywelyn called Walter
>> the brother of his uncle, rather than the less awkward
>> uncle, suggests that William Corbet was Llywelyn's
>> "avunculus" but Walter was not.
>She does say, "Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his
>relative and friend and brother of William Corbet, who was Llewellyn's
>uncle." For the latter statement, a quote of the original document is
>provided. While the first half of this statement could be an over
>interpretation of the William clause, it sounds to me like she has
>another document (or another statement in the same document) in which
>Walter is "relative and friend". If so, this would suggest that it was
>not just William who was related (although then one would have to
>explain why Walter was not "avunculus" of Llewellyn). I was wondering
>if they could be maternal half-brothers of either Iorwerth of Margred.
In this context, it is useful to note that there is no good evidence
regarding the mother of Margred. (Some of the late Welsh genealogical
manuscripts make her the daughter of Madog's best known wife Susanna,
daughter of the famous Gruffudd ap Cynan, but there does not seem to
be any early authority for this.) Bartrum's Welsh genealogies show
two wives and two mistresses for Margred's father Madog ap Maredudd.
Although none of them has an obvious Corbet connection, it cannot be
ruled out that one of them was the mother of both Margred and William
Corbet (and perhaps Walter too) by two different husbands. Thus, it
seems that there are quite a few scenarios in which both Llywelyn's
statements about his relations to the Corbets and the identity of
Llywelyn's mother in the Welsh genealogies could be consistent with
each other.
Stewart Baldwin
MERIKIN
Fascinating, first mention I've ever seen of his maternal line. I'm not adding
her to the family tree, yet.