BRIENNE - of FRANCE
Josephine Lindsay Bass
i would like to know more about my gf Hugenots of French Lands in Virginia,
and if what I have so far is proven.
Can someone point me in the right direction........thanks josie
The most renown of the French family are Jean de Brienne 3rd son of Erard
2d King of Jerusalum, Gauthier de Brienne, Duke of Athens despot of
Florence, and lemenie de Brienne Cardinal and Minister: From "History,
Protestation of France"; Haag; and d'Hozier also Millinet.
Bryant is an ancient family and is said to include Jean de Brienne who
lived cir 1148-1237 and others of his immediate family who were outstanding
during the Crusades.
John's father was killed in the seige of Acre and his brother Walter was
sent by the barons to serve the pope.
Philip II of France chose John of Brienne, a middle-aged knight to marry
Marie of Montserrat, heiresss to the kingdom of Jerusalem. They were
crowned King and Queen of Jerusalem; John held the throne until the day
after his 13 year old daughter Yolande wed in 1225 Frederick II of Germany,
Holy Roman Emperor, the mightiest monarch in chistendom, who then demanded
of the helpless John that he turn over the kingdom to him.
A year or so later John led the papal forces against Frederick who was
threatening Italy, but was defeated.
In 1229 the barons of Constantinople chose John to be regent for the young
Baldwin II, Emperor of the Roman Empire in Constantinople, who had married
John's daughter Mary. This was during those years the Latins held the
throne from the Byzantine emperors.
Another man, said of this family, was Walter of Brienne, Duke of Athens,
who in 1342-43 became Despot of Florence and was violently overthrown by
the people. Members of the family were later prominent in France.
Through the Bryant family the Huguenot ancestry is well established. On
Liste of Generalle de Tous Les Francois Protestant Refugiees appears the
names of: Brian, Flourney, Guerrant, Lefevre, L'Orange, Porter and others
which figure in the Bryant family and its connections.
The earliest ancestor of the name Brian, Briand or Bryant was Englebert I,
Seigneur de Brienne, a Frenchman, who died in 990. A part of his family
moved into England at an early date.
In the fourteenth century one, Guy de Bryan distinguished himself in both
military and naval exploits in the reigns of Edward the III and Richard II.
In 1361, he was made Admiral of the Kings fleet and elected fifty-seventh
Knight of the Garter.
Sir Francis Brian was govenor-general of Ireland, and in 1549 Lord Chief
Justice.
GUERIN: (GUERRANT in VA)
Henri Guerin was broken at the wheel in France in 1696 following the
revocation of the Edict of Nantes by Louis XIV.
The Guerin family settled in Anjou, France, between 1520-1550. Guerande,
abt 50 miles west of Nantes and a short distance North of La Baule and west
of St. Nazaire, is an old town with an unbroken line of ramparts from the
14th & 15th centuries. It was once a major political and trading center.
Saintonge is mentioned frequently in Garrison, Janine, "L'Edit de Nantes et
sa Revocation". Following the political assembly of the Huguenots at La
Rochelle in Dec 1620, where the decision was made to take up arms under the
command of de Rohan. In March 1622, the royal army descended upon le
Poitou and la Saintonge.
In 1683, Saintonge remained among the more militant areas. The Huguenots
who left Saintonge before 1685 and in the year following the revocation
went mostly to England.
L'ORANGE:
The principality of Orange, (just North of Avignon, in the Province of
Languedoc, and now in the Department of Vaucluse), enclave belonging to the
House of Nassau, at one time had 4,000 Huguenots with 60 ministers. On 23
Oct 1685, it was occupied militarily by the Count of Grignan,
lieutenant-general of the King in Provence.
The pastors fled again, or were imprisoned at Lyon, the two churches were
destroyed, and the people, threatened with "dragonnades" (repression with
billeting of troops in the homes), were converted "en masse" from
protestantism. (Garrisson, p. 261)
TRABUE (STRABO, TRABUC)
David Trabuc (31/12/1590-) & Galharde d'Andrailh. They married (civil)
19/6/1615; (church) 23/12/1615. She was the daughter of Arnaud Andrailh,
plowman of the Moreaux in Montauban, and Lizette de Gascon; her dowry was
450 livres of Turin and a trousseau. Children were Arnaud; Jean
(31/12/1623); Anthoine.
Guillaume Trabuc (-before 1615) & Anne Azam. They married (civil)
5/6/1583; (church) 19/6/1583. She was the daughter of Jean Azam, a weaver
of Montauban, and Naude de Marty. Her dowry was 33 ecus of gold which
equalled 90 pounds of Turin gold, and bedding.
VEREUL of Rouen, Normandy, France
Moise / Moses VEREUL (Verreiul)
d. bef Dec 1703, VA
m. to Madeleine Prodhomme
A French merchant at Touen, France
with wife and five children arrived at Jamestown, VA 20 Sep 1700 on the
ship Peter and Anthony as French Refugees.
Widow m/2 on 4 Dec 1703 to Jacob Flournoy.
Children:
Magdalene; b 28 Jan 1685 at the Hague, Holland; d. will, 2 Jun 1729; Will
proved May 1731, Henrico Co. VA; m/1 to Anthony Trabue, Jr. (he d. 29 Jan
1724); m/2 to Pierre Chastain.
jb...@digital.net
216 Beach Park Lane
Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003
Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY*
http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm
My Family WWW: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/index.htm
LINDSAY & HARRISON Surnames & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List
Data Managed by beautiful daughter Becky Bass Bonner and me, Josephine
Lindsay Bass
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> The most renown of the French family are Jean de Brienne 3rd son of Erard
> 2d King of Jerusalum, Gauthier de Brienne, Duke of Athens despot of
> Florence, and lemenie de Brienne Cardinal and Minister: From "History,
> Protestation of France"; Haag; and d'Hozier also Millinet.
>
> Bryant is an ancient family and is said to include Jean de Brienne who
> lived cir 1148-1237 and others of his immediate family who were outstanding
> during the Crusades.
This is not true. There is no connection between the Brienne family of
Jean and the Bryant family.
> The earliest ancestor of the name Brian, Briand or Bryant was Englebert I,
> Seigneur de Brienne, a Frenchman, who died in 990. A part of his family
> moved into England at an early date.
Again, he belongs to the same family as Jean, but not Bryant. While
they had some holdings in England, the family really didn't "move to
England" until the niece of crusader Jean married Edward I of England,
and she set a few of Jean's kids up with good marriages.
> In the fourteenth century one, Guy de Bryan distinguished himself in both
> military and naval exploits in the reigns of Edward the III and Richard II.
> In 1361, he was made Admiral of the Kings fleet and elected fifty-seventh
> Knight of the Garter.
This man was entirely unrelated to the Brienne family.
Extreme care must be taken with such claims. Early unscrupulous
genealogists would meld anyone with a similar sounding surname into the
same family, even if there was no evidence to support the connection,
and these faulty relationships have found their way into family
histories.
taf
Josephine Lindsay Bass
you sound like you have some dope
how about sharing it.
yea i wish all surnames had consistent spellings in all records don't
you.Have you heard of BRIAND? josie
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> good, i got a rise out of somebody
>
> you sound like you have some dope
>
> how about sharing it.
I don't think I can help you. I am familiar with Guy de Bryan, and with
the Briennes, but no with Bryant.
> yea i wish all surnames had consistent spellings in all records don't
> you.Have you heard of BRIAND? josie
Well, one reason they don't have consistant spelling is that they were
often different families.
taf
Josephine Lindsay Bass
I didn't know asking questions on this list caused you to branded as
putting out bum dope??
josie
Tristan Tornado
Cheer up nice lady.Don't let them push your buttons.I am getting hate
mail.But I, at least, earned it.You are just a nice lady who wants to
know things.
And you people out there.I don't share MY dope with anyone so don't ask.
Tristan Tornado
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> What's taf accusing me of anyway???
This forum is an exchange of information and opinion. I offered you
mine, in an attempt to be helpful. You seem to have taken it as
something it was not.
> I didn't know asking questions on this list caused you to branded as
> putting out bum dope??
I am a bit puzzled by this reaction. I said nothing about you at all.
As to the information, well, what can I say? There is no known tie
between Guy de Bryan and Brienne and Bryant. I am not surprised that
some Bryant family history may make such a claim, but part of
genealogical research is learning the quality of such claims and how to
evaluate them.
I know that there is this perception out there of a group of
'professionals' sitting back and waiting for an opportunity to swat any
new poster, but that is simply not the case. I think the vast majority
of us want to help both the person posting and all of the lurkers out
there reading the exchange. Every once in a while we end up killing
someone's sacred cow, and acrimony ensues. The unfortunate truth is
that many claimed lines going back to medieval times are false. Either
they are simply erroneous, based on reasonable research that was simply
not thorough enough to reveal the flaws, or else they are outright
fabrications. While it may hurt in the short run, the sooner such flaws
and falsifications are uncovered, the better.
All I am trying to say is that any attempt to trace Bryant to de Bryan
or Brienne is doomed to failure, because no such link exists. Therefor,
pursuing these other families will only distract from the pursuit of the
Bryant ancestors.
Where do we go from here? Why don't you post a specific lineage. I
will be of little help with it, since I have little knowledge of the
Bryant families. Perhaps some member of the group will have more
experience with the Bryants than I do, and will be able to better point
you in the right direction, to complement my attempt to point you away
from the wrong one.
taf
Josephine Lindsay Bass
own judgement and that is why I asked for the info.
I like to note: CONFLICT and show all differing sides of the questionable
data, so that when I or anyone else has the time and the wherewithal to
work on it they will not be starting from scratch, and picking up erroneous
info and inventing the wheel. That is the way I like to address unproven
lines, you may have a different method.
You have said there is no connection can never be a connection etc but you
have not given any documentation to support your theory.
Seems to me most lines back that far fall into a theory and likely,
probable, possible, most surely ancestry.
Seems to me That to say that the french BRIENNE line never had any child
ever who might have fathered an ancestor who might be connected 700 years
later to a BRIAND (anglized BRYANT) Hugenot (french) is just as false.
After all Dr. Bryant only mentioned the possibility, which is what i am
attempting to explore. I got cut off at the pass. Anyway most all BOOKS
have ERRORS! But we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. We work
on what it is not proven to our satisfaction. (and i admit there are
several levels of satisfaction, but I am a truth seeker and am not a
romanticizer).
josie
Reedpcgen
>Cheer up nice lady.Don't let them push your buttons.I am getting hate
>mail.But I, at least, earned it.You are just a nice lady who wants to
>know things.
>And you people out there.I don't share MY dope with anyone so don't ask.
>
>Tristan Tornado
Just to throw in my one cent's worth,
I'm certain Todd wasn't trying to offend, and what he said is sound. I'm
certain Todd did not think the lady was trying to pull anything either. He was
just trying to be helpful.
I guess the difficulty is that often people don't realize they may have been
mislead by sources they have relied on. Many family histories and genealogies
leap to trying to make some type of connection with gentry families whose names
look like they might be similar. Not only do they not strain at gnats, they
swallow camels! (to use a modified expression)
It takes a great deal of experience with original records and families to have
a feel for what names may have evolved into other names. Cholmondeleigh became
Chumley. Featherstonehaugh became Fanshaw. But Bryant is distinctly different
than Brienne or Bryan. One would have to have a specific reaason to add a "t"
to the end of the noble family's name.
It's difficult to always explain all the details; easier stating facts.
Unfortunately, often this means someone's favorite line, or the romance of a
certain theory, is trashed. But, that's the way it is.
The best way to avoid future agony is to take great care now and be highly
skeptical, only accepting connections taken from factual contemporaneous
records, step by step, generaation by generation, not leaping over any long
distances.
pcr
ray montgomery
RAY
On 17 Dec 1998 18:37:39 -0800 tristan...@yahoo.com (Tristan Tornado)
writes:
>
>Cheer up nice lady.Don't let them push your buttons.I am getting hate
>mail.But I, at least, earned it.You are just a nice lady who wants to
>know things.
>And you people out there.I don't share MY dope with anyone so don't
>ask.
>
>Tristan Tornado
>
>
>
>> putting out bum dope??
>>
>>
>> At 03:22 PM 12/17/98 -0500, Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>> >Josephine Lindsay Bass wrote:
>> >>
>> >> good, i got a rise out of somebody
>> >>
>> >> you sound like you have some dope
>> >>
>> >> how about sharing it.
>> >
>> >I don't think I can help you. I am familiar with Guy de Bryan, and
>with
>> >the Briennes, but no with Bryant.
>> >
>> >> yea i wish all surnames had consistent spellings in all records
>don't
>> >> you.Have you heard of BRIAND? josie
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, one reason they don't have consistant spelling is that they
>were
>> >often different families.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> jb...@digital.net
>> 216 Beach Park Lane
>> Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003
>>
>> Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY*
>> http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm
>> My Family WWW: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/index.htm
>> LINDSAY & HARRISON Surnames & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List
>>
>> Data Managed by beautiful daughter Becky Bass Bonner and me,
>Josephine
>> Lindsay Bass
>>
>>
>
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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Tristan Tornado
---ray montgomery <scruffyn...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Silly boy, dope is for airplanes
> RAY
This bit of wisdom from a guy who herds scruffy nerfs from pasture to
pasture never stopping long enough to even score any dope for himself
or trade it for airplane tickets to bring his herd to the Bronx so we
can start a petting zoo.
Tristan
(sees Alan hiding in the bushes)
Leo van de Pas
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------23FDF6CCCD3D3ABB1116A2B9
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>attempting to post a longish note about the luxembourg family, which
inherited
>the brienne titles.
>
>
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="luxembourg.txt"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="luxembourg.txt"
>
>4.1 Waleran III (1355-1415) condestable of France, count of Saint Pol and
Ligny, and seigneur de Bouchain. Married twice, he did not have male
children. By his first wife, Mathilde of Courtenay, he had
>4.1.1 Jeanne, died 1407, who married Anthony of Burgundy, duke of Brabant,
died 1415, parents of
Dear Emanuel,
Your sources are all pretty old.....quite recently the above Waleran III
has been dealt with and your details seem close but not close enough.
Waleran III married the widow Courtenay, not a miss Courtenay. In 1380 in
Windsor he married Lady Maud de Holand, Dame de Roeux, widow of Sir Hugh de
Courtenay, Baron Courtenay. She was the daughter of Thomas de Holand, 1st
Earl of Kent, and Joan, Countess of Kent. She was also the mother of
Waleran III's only child.
Previously, when these generations were mentioned, at first it was stated
that Waleran III and Maud's descendants became extinct within a few
generations. But then it was pointed out that legitimate issued was extinct
within a few generations but, via an illegitimate link, most royalty of
today are descended from Waleran III and Maud.
Sources Isenburg, volume III page 109
Schwennicke Band III teilband 2 page 203
Burke's Peerage, 1938, page 802
Complete Peerage volume IV page 325
Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 16 and 961
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
sk...@ix.netcom.com
Bryants were related to a Brienne line, and that got whacked. Then
she asked about Bryant and possible Virginia Huguenot connections
(which after the whacking of Brienne may not exist). Then TAF said
she should post a line of Bryants, he couldn't help there but maybe
someone else could. She didn't, so now we're into the Luxembourg
inheritance of the Brienne-not-Bryant titles!
In loco Josephinis, I offer some Bryants:
John Bryant m. Mary Lewis in Plymoluth Colony in 1643.
That's post-medieval, but it's as far back as I go.
Their son John m. Mary Batelle in March 1676/77
Their son David m. Hannah Church bef. 1706
Their daughter Deborah m. Lemuel Sturtevant in 1737
***
Another line:
Stephen Bryant m. Abigail Shaw ca. 1647
Still not medieval ...
Their son John m. Sarah Bonham in 1676
Their children (among others)
Ruth m. William Churchill; George father of
John father of
Peleg father of
Bezer father of
Lucinda m. Theodore Smith,
my g-g grandfather
Both lines are English dissenters without known connections in
Virginia. Anyone having medieval forbears please post!
Bryant Smith
Austin, Texas
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 20:55:33 -0500, emanuel <sar...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
D. Spencer Hines
can hardly respond to a Bryant line that Josephine has NOT posted.
DSH
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "For all the reckless gallantry and foolish
ineptitude of the premature Russian offensive, it nevertheless
achieved its primary objective: the diversion of German forces from
the West. The limited penetration of East Prussia had had a magnified
effect. Refugees, many of them high-born, had descended in fury and
despair on Berlin, the Kaiser was outraged, and von Moltke himself
admitted that 'all the success on the Western front will be unavailing
if the Russians arrive in Berlin.' Robert K. Massie, writing of the
Battle of Tannenberg [25-30 Aug 1914] in "Nicholas and Alexandra"
[1967] pp. 277-278 [An Excellent Example of the Contingent and the
Unforeseen in History. Tannenberg --- Marne.]
sk...@ix.netcom.com wrote in message
<36889ce3....@news.supernews.com>...
melissa....@gmail.com
Melissa....@gmail.com