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C.P. Correction: Margaret le Gras (not Marshal), wife of Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant
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Douglas Richardson
Mar 27, 2012, 3:55:38 PM3/27/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
In Charles Cawley's online Medlands database, he states the following:
"RALPH de Somery (-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
Salisbury] (-after [1242/43]). The primary source which confirms her
parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. The Complete
Peerage names her and records her marriage but does not the cite the
primary source on which this information is based[1033]. The Pipe
Roll 1210 records that "Margareta que fuit uxor Radulfi de Sumeri"
arranged to pay an instalment of her fine for the assignment of her
dower in midsummer[1034]. She married secondly Maurice de Gant." END
OF QUOTE.
While Complete Peerage does claim in its Berkeley and Somery accounts
that Margaret, wife of Ralph de Somery, was the sister of William
Marshal (died 1219), Earl of Pembroke, I've always found that claim
rather doubtful. Indeed the editor's comments in both the Berkeley
and Somery accounts suggest that the identification of Margaret de
Somery as the earl's sister is not at all certain.
Recently I came across John Hunt's book, Lordship and the Landscape
(1994), which discusses the early history of the Somery family. On
pages 34–35, he presents concrete evidence from the Brooksby Cartulary
that Ralph de Somery's wife, Margaret, was actually the daughter of
William le Gras, which William is thought to have been married to a
sister of Earl William Marshal. Thus, it would appear that Margaret
de Somery was the Earl's niece, not his daughter as claimed by
Complete Peerage.
I can only provide partial abstracts from John Hunt's book as Google
Books limit my view of his material. Regardless, this is what I can
glean from the parts of pages 34 and 35 that I can see online:
“The Marcher connection may also be reflected in the marriage of John
and Hawise's son, Ralph I de Somery, to Margaret. There is a marriage
recorded before 1194 between a Ralph de Somery, of the honor of
Gloucester, and Margaret, the daughter of William le Gros; William was
a Gloucestershire knight who served the earl of Gloucester and was
married to a sister of William Marshal I, earl of Pembroke (d. 1219).
That this represents ...[part is missing here DR] .... The marriage of
the future baron of Dudley is suggested by two documents surviving in
the Brooksby cartulary. The first is the marriage contract itself, in
which it is stated that William le Gros gave his land at Little Dalby
to Ralph de Somery as part of the marriage agreement. The second is a
confirmation charter, which may be dated to not earlier than c.1210,
by which William Crassus, Margaret de Somery’s brother, confirmed his
widowed sister’s grant of lands in ...”). END OF QUOTE.
That William le Gras' wife was the sister of William Marshal is
supported to three references to kinship between the Gras and Marshal
families. In the first reference below, William le Gras the elder is
styled "consanguineum" by William le Marshal the younger in a letter
dated 1224. In the second reference below, Anselm le Gras, Bishop of
St. David's, is styled "nepos Marescalli" [i.e., kinsman of the Earl
of Pembroke]. William le Gras the elder and Anselm le Gras are
thought to be sons of the earlier William le Gras (living 1210, dead
by 1219), who married Earl Marshal's sister. The son William le Gras
is styled "the elder" or "first born" in records as the earlier
William le Gras had two sons named William. The third reference below
is a record dated 1221-2, in which Joan de Somery, daughter of
Margaret le Gras, is styled "neptem" [kinswoman] by William Marshal
the younger, Earl of Pembroke.
1. Shirley, Royal & Other Hist. Letters Ill. of King Henry III 1
(1862) (Rolls Ser. 27): 500–503 [letter of William Marshal, Earl of
Pembroke dated 1224 states he had dispatched his
“cousin” [consanguineum], William le Gras, the elder, to relieve
Carrickfergus [“Item .... misimus dominum W. Grassum primogenitum
consanguineum nostrum ... as Enocfergus in Ultonia”])
2. Luard, Annales Monastici 4 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1869): 422 (Annals of
Worcester sub A.D. 1231: “Anselmus nepos Marescalli consecratur apud
Cantuariam in episcopum Menevensem” [Anselm le Gras consecrated Bishop
of St. David’s in 1231 styled “kinsman" of [William Earl] Marshal]).
3. John Hunt's book, Lordship & the Landscape (1994): 34 and Complete
Peerage refers to a record dated 1221-2 from the published Eyre Roll
of 5 Henry III in which Joan de Somery, wife of Thomas de Berkeley, is
styled "neptem" [i.e., kinswoman] by William Marshal the younger, Earl
of Pembroke. Joan de Somery's mother was Margaret le Gras, as stated
above. The Eyre Roll item is published in Selden Society, vol. lix,
no. 301.
Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 111 (sub Somery) states that Margaret,
wife of Ralph de Somery, was living in 1242-43. Actually she was
living as late as 14 June 1247, as proven by a document published in
Hoskin, English Episcopal Acta 13 (1997): 152. This document
indicates that Margaret de Somery reached agreement on that date with
Henry de Gaunt, Rector of the almonry of St. Mark’s Hospital,
Billeswick, she granting the said Henry the tithes of the mill of East
Quantoxhead, Somerset and the right to pasture six oxen, two cows and
two horses in Margaret’s pasture; Henry quitclaimed to Margaret for
the rest of her life all the land which he held at Coke (?in
Stogursey, Somerset) in return for 16 pence a year.
Margaret de Somery held the manor of East Quantoxhead, Somerset in
right of her dower from her 2nd marriage to Maurice de Gant.
Lastly, the A2A Catalogue includes another record relating to
Margaret, widow of Ralph de Somery, this one is undated:
National Archives, E 210/2932 (undated confirmation by Roger de Sumeri
of an agreement between Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld
concerning a grant and exchange of lands at Bradfield, Berkshire)
(available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In Charles Cawley's online Medlands database, he states the following:
"RALPH de Somery (-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
Salisbury] (-after [1242/43]). The primary source which confirms her
parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. The Complete
Peerage names her and records her marriage but does not the cite the
primary source on which this information is based[1033]. The Pipe
Roll 1210 records that "Margareta que fuit uxor Radulfi de Sumeri"
arranged to pay an instalment of her fine for the assignment of her
dower in midsummer[1034]. She married secondly Maurice de Gant." END
OF QUOTE.
While Complete Peerage does claim in its Berkeley and Somery accounts
that Margaret, wife of Ralph de Somery, was the sister of William
Marshal (died 1219), Earl of Pembroke, I've always found that claim
rather doubtful. Indeed the editor's comments in both the Berkeley
and Somery accounts suggest that the identification of Margaret de
Somery as the earl's sister is not at all certain.
Recently I came across John Hunt's book, Lordship and the Landscape
(1994), which discusses the early history of the Somery family. On
pages 34–35, he presents concrete evidence from the Brooksby Cartulary
that Ralph de Somery's wife, Margaret, was actually the daughter of
William le Gras, which William is thought to have been married to a
sister of Earl William Marshal. Thus, it would appear that Margaret
de Somery was the Earl's niece, not his daughter as claimed by
Complete Peerage.
I can only provide partial abstracts from John Hunt's book as Google
Books limit my view of his material. Regardless, this is what I can
glean from the parts of pages 34 and 35 that I can see online:
“The Marcher connection may also be reflected in the marriage of John
and Hawise's son, Ralph I de Somery, to Margaret. There is a marriage
recorded before 1194 between a Ralph de Somery, of the honor of
Gloucester, and Margaret, the daughter of William le Gros; William was
a Gloucestershire knight who served the earl of Gloucester and was
married to a sister of William Marshal I, earl of Pembroke (d. 1219).
That this represents ...[part is missing here DR] .... The marriage of
the future baron of Dudley is suggested by two documents surviving in
the Brooksby cartulary. The first is the marriage contract itself, in
which it is stated that William le Gros gave his land at Little Dalby
to Ralph de Somery as part of the marriage agreement. The second is a
confirmation charter, which may be dated to not earlier than c.1210,
by which William Crassus, Margaret de Somery’s brother, confirmed his
widowed sister’s grant of lands in ...”). END OF QUOTE.
That William le Gras' wife was the sister of William Marshal is
supported to three references to kinship between the Gras and Marshal
families. In the first reference below, William le Gras the elder is
styled "consanguineum" by William le Marshal the younger in a letter
dated 1224. In the second reference below, Anselm le Gras, Bishop of
St. David's, is styled "nepos Marescalli" [i.e., kinsman of the Earl
of Pembroke]. William le Gras the elder and Anselm le Gras are
thought to be sons of the earlier William le Gras (living 1210, dead
by 1219), who married Earl Marshal's sister. The son William le Gras
is styled "the elder" or "first born" in records as the earlier
William le Gras had two sons named William. The third reference below
is a record dated 1221-2, in which Joan de Somery, daughter of
Margaret le Gras, is styled "neptem" [kinswoman] by William Marshal
the younger, Earl of Pembroke.
1. Shirley, Royal & Other Hist. Letters Ill. of King Henry III 1
(1862) (Rolls Ser. 27): 500–503 [letter of William Marshal, Earl of
Pembroke dated 1224 states he had dispatched his
“cousin” [consanguineum], William le Gras, the elder, to relieve
Carrickfergus [“Item .... misimus dominum W. Grassum primogenitum
consanguineum nostrum ... as Enocfergus in Ultonia”])
2. Luard, Annales Monastici 4 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1869): 422 (Annals of
Worcester sub A.D. 1231: “Anselmus nepos Marescalli consecratur apud
Cantuariam in episcopum Menevensem” [Anselm le Gras consecrated Bishop
of St. David’s in 1231 styled “kinsman" of [William Earl] Marshal]).
3. John Hunt's book, Lordship & the Landscape (1994): 34 and Complete
Peerage refers to a record dated 1221-2 from the published Eyre Roll
of 5 Henry III in which Joan de Somery, wife of Thomas de Berkeley, is
styled "neptem" [i.e., kinswoman] by William Marshal the younger, Earl
of Pembroke. Joan de Somery's mother was Margaret le Gras, as stated
above. The Eyre Roll item is published in Selden Society, vol. lix,
no. 301.
Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 111 (sub Somery) states that Margaret,
wife of Ralph de Somery, was living in 1242-43. Actually she was
living as late as 14 June 1247, as proven by a document published in
Hoskin, English Episcopal Acta 13 (1997): 152. This document
indicates that Margaret de Somery reached agreement on that date with
Henry de Gaunt, Rector of the almonry of St. Mark’s Hospital,
Billeswick, she granting the said Henry the tithes of the mill of East
Quantoxhead, Somerset and the right to pasture six oxen, two cows and
two horses in Margaret’s pasture; Henry quitclaimed to Margaret for
the rest of her life all the land which he held at Coke (?in
Stogursey, Somerset) in return for 16 pence a year.
Margaret de Somery held the manor of East Quantoxhead, Somerset in
right of her dower from her 2nd marriage to Maurice de Gant.
Lastly, the A2A Catalogue includes another record relating to
Margaret, widow of Ralph de Somery, this one is undated:
National Archives, E 210/2932 (undated confirmation by Roger de Sumeri
of an agreement between Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld
concerning a grant and exchange of lands at Bradfield, Berkshire)
(available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
Mar 27, 2012, 9:11:19 PM3/27/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my earlier post, I should note that there is an
interesting and well written article by the historian, Nicholas
Vincent, on the le Gras family entitled “The Borough of Chipping
Sodbury and the Fat Men of France (1130–1270),” which was published in
Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society,
Volume 116 (1999): 141–159.
The article is available online at the following weblink:
http://www2.glos.ac.uk/bgas/tbgas/v116/bg116141.pdf
Mr. Vincent identifies William le Gras [father of Margaret (le Gras)
de Somery] as the man who was Seneschal (or Steward) of Normandy in
1204, at the time of its collapse as an English possession.
Although Mr. Vincent apparently saw the Brooksby Charters, he appears
to have missed the two charters cited by John Hunt which prove that
Margaret, wife of Ralph de Somery, was a daughter of William le Gras.
As a followup to my earlier post, I should note that there is an
interesting and well written article by the historian, Nicholas
Vincent, on the le Gras family entitled “The Borough of Chipping
Sodbury and the Fat Men of France (1130–1270),” which was published in
Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society,
Volume 116 (1999): 141–159.
The article is available online at the following weblink:
http://www2.glos.ac.uk/bgas/tbgas/v116/bg116141.pdf
Mr. Vincent identifies William le Gras [father of Margaret (le Gras)
de Somery] as the man who was Seneschal (or Steward) of Normandy in
1204, at the time of its collapse as an English possession.
Although Mr. Vincent apparently saw the Brooksby Charters, he appears
to have missed the two charters cited by John Hunt which prove that
Margaret, wife of Ralph de Somery, was a daughter of William le Gras.
Douglas Richardson
Mar 28, 2012, 12:20:36 AM3/28/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of the enormous number
of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Margaret le
Gras, wife of Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby,
Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes, John Baynard, Anne Baynton, Dorothy
Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel
Browne, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace
Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Elizabeth
Covert, William Crymes, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Jane, Frances, &
Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John
Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby,
Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon,
Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and
Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John
Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph,
George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger,
Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Touteville, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Mary
Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of the enormous number
of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Margaret le
Gras, wife of Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby,
Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes, John Baynard, Anne Baynton, Dorothy
Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel
Browne, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace
Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Elizabeth
Covert, William Crymes, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Jane, Frances, &
Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John
Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby,
Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon,
Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and
Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John
Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph,
George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger,
Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Touteville, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Mary
Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
J Cook
Mar 28, 2012, 8:04:14 AM3/28/12
to
On Mar 28, 12:20 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of the enormous number
> of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Margaret le
> Gras, wife of Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant.
>
> Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby,
> Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes, John Baynard, Anne Baynton, Dorothy
> Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen,
> George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
This connection to Joseph Bolles from Margararet le Gras is unknown to
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of the enormous number
> of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Margaret le
> Gras, wife of Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant.
>
> Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby,
> Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes, John Baynard, Anne Baynton, Dorothy
> Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen,
> George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
me (and to Genealogics). What is Joseph Bolles line of descent from
Margaret le Gras?
J Cook
Mar 28, 2012, 7:54:03 AM3/28/12
to
On Mar 27, 3:55 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> In Charles Cawley's online Medlands database, he states the following:
>
> "RALPH de Somery (-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
> Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
I can't be the only one amused by the fact that now that Peter Stewart
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> In Charles Cawley's online Medlands database, he states the following:
>
> "RALPH de Somery (-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
> Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
is gone, here come the Medlands references...
Anyway, the document on the Crassius family you posted says that
although the exact date of the marriage of William le Gras and ?
Marshal is unknown, it can be inferred by the fact that none of their
sons were married by 1203.
To expand on that some, even if the eldest of William & ? Marshal's
children was as old as, say, 27 years old, (born 1176), that also puts
the marriage of William le Gras and ? Marshall somewhere around that
time. Daughter Marshal's father had two wives: Aline Pipard; and
Sibyl (daughter of Walter FitzEdward). The first marriage to Pipard
was annulled in 1141. This would mean even with a very high estimate
of the ages of William le Gras's children, his wife Marshal is an
extremely poor fit to be the daughter of John Marshal's first wife
Aline, and therefore was a daughter of his second wife, Sibyl. This
also means that the wife of William le Gras was a full sibling to
William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, not a half-sister
--Joe C
Monica Kanellis
Mar 28, 2012, 10:03:42 AM3/28/12
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Is this William le Gros one of the Gros/Grace/Crassus family that descended
from Basilia de Clare and her second husband, Raymond le Gros? Their son
William was said to be the ancestor of the Crassus family, and I note that
Margaret's brother was called "William Crassus." Was the elder William, who
married a Marshal, this same William?
MK
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Douglas Richardson
<royala...@msn.com>wrote:
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
from Basilia de Clare and her second husband, Raymond le Gros? Their son
William was said to be the ancestor of the Crassus family, and I note that
Margaret's brother was called "William Crassus." Was the elder William, who
married a Marshal, this same William?
MK
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Douglas Richardson
<royala...@msn.com>wrote:
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Douglas Richardson
Mar 28, 2012, 12:57:15 PM3/28/12
to
On Mar 28, 5:54 am, J Cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
< This also means that the wife of William le Gras was a full sibling
to
< William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, not a half-sister
<
< --Joe C
William Marshal is known to have had two full sisters. They appear
< This also means that the wife of William le Gras was a full sibling
to
< William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, not a half-sister
<
< --Joe C
to be Maud, wife of Robert Ponte de l'Arche, and _____, wife of
William le Gras, Seneschal of Mortain, Seneschal of Normandy.
Meyer, L’Histoire de Guillaume le Maréchal 1 (1891): 15 (Lines 395–
398: “Si ourent deus serors mult beles E mult corteises damiseles, De
grant appareil acesmées; Richement furent mariées.”), 262 (Lines 7264–
7275 (“E quant il vint a la meison Seingnor Robert del Pont de
l’Arche, De la outre, qu’il est en marche, Sa soer li comença a dire:
‘Por Deu! que feront ore, sire .V. filles k’ai a marïer? Qui lor porra
consel doner? N’est mais kui faire lor peüst.’ Il dist: ‘Soer, se por
els ne fust E por mes autres boens amis, Jamais ne venisse al païs.’).
Brooks, Knights' Fees in Counties Wexford, Carlow & Kilkenny (1950):
72 states: “Histoire de Guillaume le Marshal, 1. 398. says the Earl
[i.e., William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke] had two sisters richly
married, one of them to Robert del Pont l'Arche; the husband of the
other, William Crassus, is not named." END OF QUOTE.
William Crassus = William le Gras
As indicated above, Maud, wife of Robert Ponte de l'Arche, had five
daughters. Of these, one was definitely Juliane de Ponte de l'Arche
who married Robert de Berkeley. I believe another of the five
daughters was Maud de Ponte de l'Arche (living 1227) who married (1st)
Philip of Brewes, and (2nd) William, Baron of Naas.
DR
Douglas Richardson
Mar 28, 2012, 1:00:20 PM3/28/12
to
On Mar 28, 8:03 am, Monica Kanellis <monica.kanel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is this William le Gros one of the Gros/Grace/Crassus family that descended
> from Basilia de Clare and her second husband, Raymond le Gros? Their son
> William was said to be the ancestor of the Crassus family, and I note that
> Margaret's brother was called "William Crassus." Was the elder William, who
> married a Marshal, this same William?
>
> MK
Monica ~
> Is this William le Gros one of the Gros/Grace/Crassus family that descended
> from Basilia de Clare and her second husband, Raymond le Gros? Their son
> William was said to be the ancestor of the Crassus family, and I note that
> Margaret's brother was called "William Crassus." Was the elder William, who
> married a Marshal, this same William?
>
> MK
You have the right WIlliam le Gras alright, but he wasn't the son of
Raymond le Gros.
Please read the article by Nicholas Vincent I cited. I provided a
weblink for you. Mr. Vincent discusses the ancestry of William le
Gras.
William Crassus = William le Gras
Douglas Richardson
Mar 29, 2012, 2:05:33 PM3/29/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a transcript of three charters concerning the le Cras (or le
Gras) family which were published in London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke
Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 153–154. The surname le Cras
is often rendered le Gras is other contemporary records. Either form
seems to be acceptable. The Latin form is Crassus. The editor of the
Bradenstoke Cartulary uses the form le Cras (and the Latin form
Crassus), which I have followed below.
The first charter below is dated 1170x1180. It concerns land in
Waleswood, Yorkshire surrendered to William le Cras (or Crassus)
[which William le Cras was the father of Margaret le Cras, wife of
Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant]. The property in question
pertains to the manor of Leston, which William Taissy [Taisson],
grandfather of Ralph Ierlum, gave to William Crassus, grandfather of
William Crassus, as a marriage portion.
In the second charter dated 1205x1219, William le Cras, the eldest son
of William le Cras, grants all the land of Wales [i.e., Waleswood,
Yorkshire] to Bradenstoke Priory. The grant was made with the assent
of his younger brothers, William the younger, Hamon, and Anselm,
Treasurer of Exeter. The property had formerly been granted to
William le Cras' brother, Robert le Cras, now deceased, who was buried
at Bradenstoke. The editor dates this charter as being as early as
1199, but the earliest date possible date would be 1205, in which year
the grantor's brother, Anselm, became Treasurer of Exeter [see Brooks,
Knights’ Fees in Counties Wexford, Carlow & Kilkenny (1950): 72].
This charter is witnessed by Sir William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke,
who was the maternal uncle of the le Cras brothers. This charter is
also witnessed by William Bluet, who presumably is the same person as
the half-brother of Earl William Marshal's father-in-law, Richard Fitz
Gilbert (de Clare), Earl of Pembroke.
The third charter is a gift in alms by William le Cras the younger,
brother and heir of Robert le Cras, with the assent of his brothers,
William the elder, Hamon, and Anselm, Treasurer of Exeter. Again this
charter is witnessed by Sir William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
517. [1170 x 1180] Notification by Ralph Ierlum, about to depart,
that he has surrendered to William Crassus the land of Wales
pertaining to Ralph's manor of Leston, which William Taissy,
grandfather of Ralph, gave to William Crassus, grandfather of William
Crassus, as a marriage portion. Since Ralph had given part of that
land to Robert, son of the seneschal of Normandy, while it was in his
hand, and before William Crassus had claimed it, he wished that land
of the same value should be given to William in exchange for Ralph's
manor of Leston. Witnesses: Robert abbot of Fountains, Henry de
Tilleio, Robert son of Erneis, Robert de Cambrai, Richard Dastmel,
Hugh de Clinchampo, Ranulf' de Hamarr' and Rob. his son.
518. [1205 x 1219]. Confirmation by William le Cras, eldest son of
William le Cras, with the assent of William le Cras the younger, Hamon
le Cras and Anselm le Cras, treasurer of Exeter, his brothers, for the
soul of Robert le Cras, his brother, at rest at Bradenstoke, of all
the land of Wales, which he had given to Robert for his homage and
service. The canons to hold from him and his heirs in alms.
Warranty. They are to be quit of all services except that owed to the
chief lord of the fee. Seal. Witnesses: Sir William Marshall, earl
of Pembroke, William Marshall his son, William le Cras the younger,
Hamon le Cras, Anselm le Cras treasurer of Exeter, brothers of the
donor, Everard the German, Frank the German his brother, Alan son of
Warin, William Bluet, John de Easton, William le Printz, Ralph de
Hinton, Philip de Farley. Printed in Monasticon, VI, pp. 338-9, in a
shortened form, lacking the last four witnesses.
519. [1205 x 1219]. Gift in alms by William le Cras the younger,
brother and heir of Robert le Cras, with the assent of William le Cras
the elder, Hammon and Anselm, treasurer of Exeter, his brothers, for
the soul of Robert his brother, of all the land of Wales which William
le Cras, his eldest brother, had given to Robert for his homage and
service. To be held of William and his heirs. Seal. Witnesses:
William Marshall, earl of Pembroke, William Marshall his son, William
le Cras the the donor's eldest brother.
Below is a transcript of three charters concerning the le Cras (or le
Gras) family which were published in London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke
Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 153–154. The surname le Cras
is often rendered le Gras is other contemporary records. Either form
seems to be acceptable. The Latin form is Crassus. The editor of the
Bradenstoke Cartulary uses the form le Cras (and the Latin form
Crassus), which I have followed below.
The first charter below is dated 1170x1180. It concerns land in
Waleswood, Yorkshire surrendered to William le Cras (or Crassus)
[which William le Cras was the father of Margaret le Cras, wife of
Ralph de Somery and Maurice de Gant]. The property in question
pertains to the manor of Leston, which William Taissy [Taisson],
grandfather of Ralph Ierlum, gave to William Crassus, grandfather of
William Crassus, as a marriage portion.
In the second charter dated 1205x1219, William le Cras, the eldest son
of William le Cras, grants all the land of Wales [i.e., Waleswood,
Yorkshire] to Bradenstoke Priory. The grant was made with the assent
of his younger brothers, William the younger, Hamon, and Anselm,
Treasurer of Exeter. The property had formerly been granted to
William le Cras' brother, Robert le Cras, now deceased, who was buried
at Bradenstoke. The editor dates this charter as being as early as
1199, but the earliest date possible date would be 1205, in which year
the grantor's brother, Anselm, became Treasurer of Exeter [see Brooks,
Knights’ Fees in Counties Wexford, Carlow & Kilkenny (1950): 72].
This charter is witnessed by Sir William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke,
who was the maternal uncle of the le Cras brothers. This charter is
also witnessed by William Bluet, who presumably is the same person as
the half-brother of Earl William Marshal's father-in-law, Richard Fitz
Gilbert (de Clare), Earl of Pembroke.
The third charter is a gift in alms by William le Cras the younger,
brother and heir of Robert le Cras, with the assent of his brothers,
William the elder, Hamon, and Anselm, Treasurer of Exeter. Again this
charter is witnessed by Sir William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
517. [1170 x 1180] Notification by Ralph Ierlum, about to depart,
that he has surrendered to William Crassus the land of Wales
pertaining to Ralph's manor of Leston, which William Taissy,
grandfather of Ralph, gave to William Crassus, grandfather of William
Crassus, as a marriage portion. Since Ralph had given part of that
land to Robert, son of the seneschal of Normandy, while it was in his
hand, and before William Crassus had claimed it, he wished that land
of the same value should be given to William in exchange for Ralph's
manor of Leston. Witnesses: Robert abbot of Fountains, Henry de
Tilleio, Robert son of Erneis, Robert de Cambrai, Richard Dastmel,
Hugh de Clinchampo, Ranulf' de Hamarr' and Rob. his son.
518. [1205 x 1219]. Confirmation by William le Cras, eldest son of
William le Cras, with the assent of William le Cras the younger, Hamon
le Cras and Anselm le Cras, treasurer of Exeter, his brothers, for the
soul of Robert le Cras, his brother, at rest at Bradenstoke, of all
the land of Wales, which he had given to Robert for his homage and
service. The canons to hold from him and his heirs in alms.
Warranty. They are to be quit of all services except that owed to the
chief lord of the fee. Seal. Witnesses: Sir William Marshall, earl
of Pembroke, William Marshall his son, William le Cras the younger,
Hamon le Cras, Anselm le Cras treasurer of Exeter, brothers of the
donor, Everard the German, Frank the German his brother, Alan son of
Warin, William Bluet, John de Easton, William le Printz, Ralph de
Hinton, Philip de Farley. Printed in Monasticon, VI, pp. 338-9, in a
shortened form, lacking the last four witnesses.
519. [1205 x 1219]. Gift in alms by William le Cras the younger,
brother and heir of Robert le Cras, with the assent of William le Cras
the elder, Hammon and Anselm, treasurer of Exeter, his brothers, for
the soul of Robert his brother, of all the land of Wales which William
le Cras, his eldest brother, had given to Robert for his homage and
service. To be held of William and his heirs. Seal. Witnesses:
William Marshall, earl of Pembroke, William Marshall his son, William
le Cras the the donor's eldest brother.
Douglas Richardson
Mar 29, 2012, 11:36:20 PM3/29/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is yet another charter which involves the Marshal and le Gras
family. This particular charter is dated c.1220–25 and is taken from
Elvey, Luffield Priory Charters 1 (Buckingham Rec. Soc. 22) (1968):
166. It concerns land at Norton, Northamptonshire.
The charter below was issued by William Marshal the younger (died
1231), Earl of Pembroke, and was witnessed by "Willelmo le Grate et
Willelmo fratre suo Hamone le Guace." The names le Grate and le
Guace are surely forms of le Gras or le Cras.
The charter mentions Sir Geoffrey Fitz Peter and his wife. This is
surely Sir Geoffrey Fitz Peter (died 1213), Earl of Essex, and his
wife, Aveline de Clare, which Aveline held land at Towcester,
Northamptonshire. The "ditch of the Countess" is mentioned in
another charter dated c.1216-1225 found on pp. 174-176. The editor
identifies the Countess as being Aveline de Clare, Countess of Essex.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + +
Grant by William son of William, earl of Pembroke, to William de
Clairvaux, his servant, for his homage and service, of 80 acres in a
corner of his wood of Norton, rendering a pair of gilt spurs at Easter
for all services. [c.1220–25].
Carta Willelmi Marescall'
Sciant presentes et futuri quod ego Willelmus Marescallus filius
Willelmi Marescalli comitis Penbroc' concessi et dedi et hac presente
carta mea confirmaui Willelmo de Clereuaus seruienti meo pro humagio
et seruicio suo quater viginti acras terre in quodam angulo bosci mei
de Norton' qui extendit se inter illam assartam quam dominus Galfridus
filius Petri fecit de terra vxoris sue et assartam quam Henricus de
Pery de terra comitis Baldewini assartare fecit et abuttat super
terram Galfridi de Pauely, Tenendum de me et heredibus meis sibi et
heredibus suis libere et quiete imperpetuum reddendo inde annuatim
michi et heredibus meis vnum par calcarium deauratorum ad Pascha pro
omni seruicio. Et ego et heredes mei warantizabimus dicto Willelmo et
heredibus suis predictam terram contra omnes gentes. Et ut hoc ratum
et firmum sit presens scriptum sigilli mei apposicione roboraui. Hijs
testibus Willelmo le Grate et Willelmo fratre suo Hamone le Guace
Alano de Hyda Galfrido de Norton' Baldewino filio eius Iohanne de
Burcote Roberto de Marisco Ada de Langeboruwe Thoma de Waleshall'
et alijs.
Below is yet another charter which involves the Marshal and le Gras
family. This particular charter is dated c.1220–25 and is taken from
Elvey, Luffield Priory Charters 1 (Buckingham Rec. Soc. 22) (1968):
166. It concerns land at Norton, Northamptonshire.
The charter below was issued by William Marshal the younger (died
1231), Earl of Pembroke, and was witnessed by "Willelmo le Grate et
Willelmo fratre suo Hamone le Guace." The names le Grate and le
Guace are surely forms of le Gras or le Cras.
The charter mentions Sir Geoffrey Fitz Peter and his wife. This is
surely Sir Geoffrey Fitz Peter (died 1213), Earl of Essex, and his
wife, Aveline de Clare, which Aveline held land at Towcester,
Northamptonshire. The "ditch of the Countess" is mentioned in
another charter dated c.1216-1225 found on pp. 174-176. The editor
identifies the Countess as being Aveline de Clare, Countess of Essex.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + +
Clairvaux, his servant, for his homage and service, of 80 acres in a
corner of his wood of Norton, rendering a pair of gilt spurs at Easter
for all services. [c.1220–25].
Carta Willelmi Marescall'
Sciant presentes et futuri quod ego Willelmus Marescallus filius
Willelmi Marescalli comitis Penbroc' concessi et dedi et hac presente
carta mea confirmaui Willelmo de Clereuaus seruienti meo pro humagio
et seruicio suo quater viginti acras terre in quodam angulo bosci mei
de Norton' qui extendit se inter illam assartam quam dominus Galfridus
filius Petri fecit de terra vxoris sue et assartam quam Henricus de
Pery de terra comitis Baldewini assartare fecit et abuttat super
terram Galfridi de Pauely, Tenendum de me et heredibus meis sibi et
heredibus suis libere et quiete imperpetuum reddendo inde annuatim
michi et heredibus meis vnum par calcarium deauratorum ad Pascha pro
omni seruicio. Et ego et heredes mei warantizabimus dicto Willelmo et
heredibus suis predictam terram contra omnes gentes. Et ut hoc ratum
et firmum sit presens scriptum sigilli mei apposicione roboraui. Hijs
testibus Willelmo le Grate et Willelmo fratre suo Hamone le Guace
Alano de Hyda Galfrido de Norton' Baldewino filio eius Iohanne de
Burcote Roberto de Marisco Ada de Langeboruwe Thoma de Waleshall'
et alijs.
Wjhonson
Apr 2, 2012, 9:59:56 PM4/2/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
The claim that Aline de Pipard and John "the Marshall" had their married annulled in, or even about 1141 is not well founded
In fact there is no source, other than a modern silly book by a silly man tracing his own descent in a clumsy fashion
Which states this year at all in relation to Aline
John
Apr 3, 2012, 12:06:27 AM4/3/12
to
one in mind? You may want to look at volume 10, appendix G of CP.
Monica Kanellis
Apr 3, 2012, 9:13:59 AM4/3/12
to GenMedieval
Hi Douglas,
Thanks for the link to the Vincent article. I hadn’t seen it before I
posted as I only got your second post (and the rest of the string since)
last night, all at once, though I see it was actually written nearly a week
ago. We must have a sluggish service provider:(
Haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but wanted to run a couple of things
past you. One thing I found of interest is that William Marshal (the
younger), Earl of Pembroke, married Alice Bethune, a daughter of Hawyse le
Gros by her third husband. The Wikipedia piece on the William Crassus who
was seneschal of Normandy 1203, says that he inherited Sodbury from “his
uncle, William le Gros, 1st Earl of Albemarle” which, if correct, would
make him Hawyse’s cousin and his children would then be second cousins to
Alice (Bethune) Marshal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Crassus
Another thing that caught my eye recently is that Margaret’s nephew,
William Crassus, son of William Crassus the younger (who would appear to be
the ancestor of the Graces, as there is no indication of offspring from his
three brothers—one being a bishop and another dying sp), marries an Isabel
Carriou. Can anyone discover if she is a descendant of Odo Carrio/Carew,
brother of Raymond le Gros? Perhaps this is where the connection to the
Geraldines comes in if anywhere. http://tinyurl.com/6oz9xe3
all the best,
MK
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Douglas Richardson
<royala...@msn.com>wrote:
Thanks for the link to the Vincent article. I hadn’t seen it before I
posted as I only got your second post (and the rest of the string since)
last night, all at once, though I see it was actually written nearly a week
ago. We must have a sluggish service provider:(
Haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but wanted to run a couple of things
past you. One thing I found of interest is that William Marshal (the
younger), Earl of Pembroke, married Alice Bethune, a daughter of Hawyse le
Gros by her third husband. The Wikipedia piece on the William Crassus who
was seneschal of Normandy 1203, says that he inherited Sodbury from “his
uncle, William le Gros, 1st Earl of Albemarle” which, if correct, would
make him Hawyse’s cousin and his children would then be second cousins to
Alice (Bethune) Marshal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Crassus
Another thing that caught my eye recently is that Margaret’s nephew,
William Crassus, son of William Crassus the younger (who would appear to be
the ancestor of the Graces, as there is no indication of offspring from his
three brothers—one being a bishop and another dying sp), marries an Isabel
Carriou. Can anyone discover if she is a descendant of Odo Carrio/Carew,
brother of Raymond le Gros? Perhaps this is where the connection to the
Geraldines comes in if anywhere. http://tinyurl.com/6oz9xe3
all the best,
MK
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Douglas Richardson
<royala...@msn.com>wrote:
Wjhonson
Apr 3, 2012, 1:54:17 PM4/3/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
John john john...
Did you even look at this reference before you went off half-cocked?
CP absolutely does *not* state that Aline and John "had their marriage annulled in 1141".
It does not state that in Volume X and it does not state that anywhere else in any credible source.
This claim is merely once more, what we see of too much, which is turning hand-waving into fact.
Surely you can do better than a knee-jerk reaction to this very important point.
<<Is CP a "modern silly book by a silly man", or did you have another
nnulled in, or even about 1141 is not well founded
In fact there is no source, other than a modern silly book by a silly man
In fact there is no source, other than a modern silly book by a silly man
racing his own descent in a clumsy fashion
Which states this year at all in relation to Aline
Is CP a "modern silly book by a silly man", or did you have another
Which states this year at all in relation to Aline
Is CP a "modern silly book by a silly man", or did you have another
ne in mind? You may want to look at volume 10, appendix G of CP.
------------------------------
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message
Monica Kanellis
Apr 3, 2012, 6:56:53 PM4/3/12
to Douglas Richardson, GenMedieval
There's an interesting piece (link below) about Sir Richard Siward who had,
for a short time, wardship of William the younger's son, William Crassus.
It looks as if he started out with Hawyse's 2nd husband, Wm. de Fortibus,
Earl of Albemarle, and became a retainer of the Marshal family until his
marriage to the heiress, Philippa Basset, Countess of Warwick, who divorced
him in 1242.
http://cylchgronaucymru.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1169834/llgc-id:1173761/llgc-id:1173770/getText
best, MK
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Douglas Richardson
<royala...@msn.com>wrote:
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
for a short time, wardship of William the younger's son, William Crassus.
It looks as if he started out with Hawyse's 2nd husband, Wm. de Fortibus,
Earl of Albemarle, and became a retainer of the Marshal family until his
marriage to the heiress, Philippa Basset, Countess of Warwick, who divorced
him in 1242.
http://cylchgronaucymru.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1169834/llgc-id:1173761/llgc-id:1173770/getText
best, MK
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Douglas Richardson
<royala...@msn.com>wrote:
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Douglas Richardson
Apr 3, 2012, 11:51:42 PM4/3/12
to
On Apr 3, 7:13 am, Monica Kanellis <monica.kanel...@gmail.com> wrote:
< Thanks for the link to the Vincent article. I hadn’t seen it before
I
< posted as I only got your second post (and the rest of the string
since)
< last night, all at once, though I see it was actually written nearly
a week
< ago. We must have a sluggish service provider:(
<
< Haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but wanted to run a couple of
things
< past you. One thing I found of interest is that William Marshal (the
< younger), Earl of Pembroke, married Alice Bethune, a daughter of
Hawyse le
< Gros by her third husband. The Wikipedia piece on the William
Crassus who
< was seneschal of Normandy 1203, says that he inherited Sodbury from
“his
< uncle, William le Gros, 1st Earl of Albemarle” which, if correct,
would
< make him Hawyse’s cousin and his children would then be second
cousins to
< Alice (Bethune) Marshal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Crassus
Wikipedia is wrong. William (or Guillaume) le Gras, Seneschal of
< Thanks for the link to the Vincent article. I hadn’t seen it before
I
< posted as I only got your second post (and the rest of the string
since)
< last night, all at once, though I see it was actually written nearly
a week
< ago. We must have a sluggish service provider:(
<
< Haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but wanted to run a couple of
things
< past you. One thing I found of interest is that William Marshal (the
< younger), Earl of Pembroke, married Alice Bethune, a daughter of
Hawyse le
< Gros by her third husband. The Wikipedia piece on the William
Crassus who
< was seneschal of Normandy 1203, says that he inherited Sodbury from
“his
< uncle, William le Gros, 1st Earl of Albemarle” which, if correct,
would
< make him Hawyse’s cousin and his children would then be second
cousins to
< Alice (Bethune) Marshal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Crassus
Normandy, was not the nephew of William le Gros, Earl of Aumale.
I recommend you read the the Vincent article.
DR.
John
Apr 7, 2012, 11:24:04 PM4/7/12
to
[snip]
> "RALPHdeSomery(-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
> recorded before 1194 between aRalphdeSomery, of the honor of
the family of Somery, feudal barons of Dudley, appears to indicate
another CP correction (and a correction to Cawley's database as well)
in the Somery family. This added correction is discussed on the page
following the one excerpted above (p. 34) and in associated footnotes
and the sources cited there.
Ralph de Somery (d. ca. 1201/11) and his wife Margaret (whom Hunt was
the first to identify as a de Gras rather than a Marshal) had a son
Roger, among other children. This Roger is identified by CP and by
Cawley as having d. in 1273 after having married (1) Nicola d'Aubigny
and (2) Amabil de Chaucombe (or Chalcombe) widow of Gilbert de
Segrave. This version is also followed by Grazebrook's discussion of
the Somery family in his extensive 1888 article on the feudal barons
of Dudley (collections for a History of Staffordshire [CHS], vol. 9
pt. 2) - but with some hesitation due to evidence to the contrary,
which will be mentioned below.
Hunt points out that Grazebrook's work was supplemented by a group of
additions by William F. Carter, published the 1941 volume of CHS
(labeled 1941 but actually published in 1942). Carter makes a strong
case (which Hunt supports) that Roger who d. 1273 was actually the
grandson, not the son, of Ralph and Margaret - his father being
another Roger. If so, then CP and Cawley (as well as Grazebrook) have
erroneously combined the two Rogers into one.
Grazebrook actually does note that the IPM of Roger who d. 1273 says
that he was the grandson, not son, of Ralph. But he quickly dismisses
this as "a mistake on the part of the jurors [at the IPM] (who, it
must be remembered, were no scholars". Carter is less willing to
dismiss this discrepancy, and he cites other evidence to indicate that
there were two Rogers here, not one.
One result of this (not mentioned by Carter or Hunt) is that splitting
one Roger of the "traditional" accounts into two Rogers may suggest
that the assignment of two wives to the Roger who d. 1273 is also
incorrect and that the first wife Nicola d'Aubigny should instead be
assigned to the first Roger 9and thus becomes the mother of the second
Roger, d. 1273). At a quick glance, this seems to make better
chronological sense than the currently accepted arrangement, based on
the limited dates that are known for various members of the Somery
family.
> "RALPHdeSomery(-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
> Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
> Salisbury] (-after [1242/43]). The primary source which confirms her
> parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. The Complete
> Peerage names her and records her marriage but does not the cite the
> primary source on which this information is based[1033]. The Pipe
> Roll 1210 records that "Margareta que fuit uxor Radulfi de Sumeri"
> arranged to pay an instalment of her fine for the assignment of her
> dower in midsummer[1034]. She married secondly Maurice de Gant." END
> OF QUOTE.
>
> While Complete Peerage does claim in its Berkeley andSomeryaccounts
> that Margaret, wife ofRalphdeSomery, was the sister of William
> Salisbury] (-after [1242/43]). The primary source which confirms her
> parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. The Complete
> Peerage names her and records her marriage but does not the cite the
> primary source on which this information is based[1033]. The Pipe
> Roll 1210 records that "Margareta que fuit uxor Radulfi de Sumeri"
> arranged to pay an instalment of her fine for the assignment of her
> dower in midsummer[1034]. She married secondly Maurice de Gant." END
> OF QUOTE.
>
> While Complete Peerage does claim in its Berkeley andSomeryaccounts
> Marshal (died 1219), Earl of Pembroke, I've always found that claim
> rather doubtful. Indeed the editor's comments in both the Berkeley
> andSomeryaccounts suggest that the identification of Margaret deSomeryas the earl's sister is not at all certain.
> rather doubtful. Indeed the editor's comments in both the Berkeley
>
> Recently I came across John Hunt's book, Lordship and the Landscape
> (1994), which discusses the early history of theSomeryfamily. On
> Recently I came across John Hunt's book, Lordship and the Landscape
> pages 34–35, he presents concrete evidence from the Brooksby Cartulary
> thatRalphdeSomery'swife, Margaret, was actually the daughter of
> William le Gras, which William is thought to have been married to a
> sister of Earl William Marshal. Thus, it would appear that Margaret
> deSomerywas the Earl's niece, not his daughter as claimed by
> sister of Earl William Marshal. Thus, it would appear that Margaret
> Complete Peerage.
>
> I can only provide partial abstracts from John Hunt's book as Google
> Books limit my view of his material. Regardless, this is what I can
> glean from the parts of pages 34 and 35 that I can see online:
>
> “The Marcher connection may also be reflected in the marriage of John
> and Hawise's son,RalphI deSomery, to Margaret. There is a marriage
>
> I can only provide partial abstracts from John Hunt's book as Google
> Books limit my view of his material. Regardless, this is what I can
> glean from the parts of pages 34 and 35 that I can see online:
>
> “The Marcher connection may also be reflected in the marriage of John
> recorded before 1194 between aRalphdeSomery, of the honor of
> Gloucester, and Margaret, the daughter of William le Gros; William was
> a Gloucestershire knight who served the earl of Gloucester and was
> married to a sister of William Marshal I, earl of Pembroke (d. 1219).
> That this represents ...[part is missing here DR] .... The marriage of
> the future baron of Dudley is suggested by two documents surviving in
> the Brooksby cartulary. The first is the marriage contract itself, in
> which it is stated that William le Gros gave his land at Little Dalby
> toRalphdeSomeryas part of the marriage agreement. The second is a
> a Gloucestershire knight who served the earl of Gloucester and was
> married to a sister of William Marshal I, earl of Pembroke (d. 1219).
> That this represents ...[part is missing here DR] .... The marriage of
> the future baron of Dudley is suggested by two documents surviving in
> the Brooksby cartulary. The first is the marriage contract itself, in
> which it is stated that William le Gros gave his land at Little Dalby
> confirmation charter, which may be dated to not earlier than c.1210,
> by which William Crassus, Margaret deSomery’sbrother, confirmed his
> widowed sister’s grant of lands in ...”). END OF QUOTE.
>
[snip]
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The book by John Hunt cited above, which covers the early history of
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
the family of Somery, feudal barons of Dudley, appears to indicate
another CP correction (and a correction to Cawley's database as well)
in the Somery family. This added correction is discussed on the page
following the one excerpted above (p. 34) and in associated footnotes
and the sources cited there.
Ralph de Somery (d. ca. 1201/11) and his wife Margaret (whom Hunt was
the first to identify as a de Gras rather than a Marshal) had a son
Roger, among other children. This Roger is identified by CP and by
Cawley as having d. in 1273 after having married (1) Nicola d'Aubigny
and (2) Amabil de Chaucombe (or Chalcombe) widow of Gilbert de
Segrave. This version is also followed by Grazebrook's discussion of
the Somery family in his extensive 1888 article on the feudal barons
of Dudley (collections for a History of Staffordshire [CHS], vol. 9
pt. 2) - but with some hesitation due to evidence to the contrary,
which will be mentioned below.
Hunt points out that Grazebrook's work was supplemented by a group of
additions by William F. Carter, published the 1941 volume of CHS
(labeled 1941 but actually published in 1942). Carter makes a strong
case (which Hunt supports) that Roger who d. 1273 was actually the
grandson, not the son, of Ralph and Margaret - his father being
another Roger. If so, then CP and Cawley (as well as Grazebrook) have
erroneously combined the two Rogers into one.
Grazebrook actually does note that the IPM of Roger who d. 1273 says
that he was the grandson, not son, of Ralph. But he quickly dismisses
this as "a mistake on the part of the jurors [at the IPM] (who, it
must be remembered, were no scholars". Carter is less willing to
dismiss this discrepancy, and he cites other evidence to indicate that
there were two Rogers here, not one.
One result of this (not mentioned by Carter or Hunt) is that splitting
one Roger of the "traditional" accounts into two Rogers may suggest
that the assignment of two wives to the Roger who d. 1273 is also
incorrect and that the first wife Nicola d'Aubigny should instead be
assigned to the first Roger 9and thus becomes the mother of the second
Roger, d. 1273). At a quick glance, this seems to make better
chronological sense than the currently accepted arrangement, based on
the limited dates that are known for various members of the Somery
family.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 8, 2012, 1:33:29 AM4/8/12
to
On Apr 7, 9:24 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
< One result of this (not mentioned by Carter or Hunt) is that
splitting
< one Roger of the "traditional" accounts into two Rogers may suggest
< that the assignment of two wives to the Roger who d. 1273 is also
< incorrect and that the first wife Nicola d'Aubigny should instead be
< assigned to the first Roger 9and thus becomes the mother of the
second
< Roger, d. 1273). At a quick glance, this seems to make better
< chronological sense than the currently accepted arrangement, based
on
< the limited dates that are known for various members of the Somery
< family.
Mr. Hunt is definitely wrong. The evidence is solid that Roger de
< One result of this (not mentioned by Carter or Hunt) is that
splitting
< one Roger of the "traditional" accounts into two Rogers may suggest
< that the assignment of two wives to the Roger who d. 1273 is also
< incorrect and that the first wife Nicola d'Aubigny should instead be
< assigned to the first Roger 9and thus becomes the mother of the
second
< Roger, d. 1273). At a quick glance, this seems to make better
< chronological sense than the currently accepted arrangement, based
on
< the limited dates that are known for various members of the Somery
< family.
Somery (died 1273), 3rd son of Ralph de Somery (died c.1210) and
Margaret le Gras, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe. We can be certain there was
only one Roger de Somery and he was definitely living c.1235-47. This
is proven by the following two records taken from the online Catalogue
of the National Archives which concern Roger de Somery and his nephew,
William de Englefield. These records are available at
www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp. In the first
record, we learn that Roger de Somery's mother was named Margaret. I
earlier posted evidence which proved that Margaret le Gras, mother of
Roger de Somery, was living as late as 1247.
E 210/2932: Confirmation by Roger de Sumeri of an agreement between
Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld concerning a grant and
exchange of lands at Bradfield, Berkshire.
E 210/7057: Roger de Sumery to William de Englefeld: Quitclaim of the
service of one knight’s fee, viz: of a hide in Humeleye and of 4 hides
in Englefield, which Isabella, the grantor’s sister, held in dower, so
that the grantee and his heirs are not bound to render service except
for one knight in Englefield and another in Craunford, in accordance
with the charter which Ralph de Sumery, the grantor’s father, made to
Alan de Englefeld, father of the grantee. END OF QUOTE.
Alan de Englefield, father of William, was living in 1226. William de
Englefield, son and heir of Alan, was an adult in 1235 [see VCH
Berkshire 3 (1923): 405-412; VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 168-170].
I might add that the evidence is absolutely iron clad that Nichole (or
Colette) d'Aubeney had only four daughters. As such she can't
possibly be the mother of the Roger de Somery who married Amabil de
Chaucombe, as suggested by Mr. Higgins.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 8, 2012, 2:20:50 AM4/8/12
to
On Apr 7, 11:33 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
< I might add that the evidence is absolutely iron clad that Nichole
(or
< Colette) d'Aubeney had only four daughters. As such she can't
< possibly be the mother of the Roger de Somery who married Amabil de
< Chaucombe, as suggested by Mr. Higgins.
My previous comments above need to be amended. I've copied below some
< I might add that the evidence is absolutely iron clad that Nichole
(or
< Colette) d'Aubeney had only four daughters. As such she can't
< possibly be the mother of the Roger de Somery who married Amabil de
< Chaucombe, as suggested by Mr. Higgins.
records from the Fine Rolls of King Henry III which are available
online at the following weblink:
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html
The first record below indicates that Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney,
1st wife of Roger de Somery, died before 19 Oct. 1253, and that she
was survived by an unnamed son who had been assigned a share of the
estates of the earldom of Chester. The third record below dated 1254
implies that this son was named Roger, but if so, this son must have
died young, as Nichole d'Aubeney's share of the Chester estates was
subsequently divided between her four surviving daughters, Margaret,
Joan, Mabel, and Maud. It is possible that the Roger de Somery in the
third record below was Nichole d'Aubeney's husband, rather than her
son, as her husband would have surely have held part of her
inheritance for the term of his life by courtesy of England.
Source: Fine Rolls of Henry III
Available at http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html
37/1401 (19 October 1253)
Concerning lands to be taken into the king’s hand. Order to the king’s
escheator of Lindsey in Lincolnshire to take into the king’s hand all
the lands that fall to the share of the son of Roger de Sumery of the
lands that Clemencia sometime countess of Chester held in dower in his
bailiwick and to keep them safely such that he is to answer for the
issues of the same at the Exchequer until the king orders otherwise.
38/55 (23 November 1253)
23 Nov. Westminster. Concerning lands to be taken into the king’s
hand. Order to the king’s escheator of Kesteven in Lincolnshire to
take into the king’s hand all the lands that fell to the purparty of
the son of Roger de Somery of the lands that Clemencia, sometime
countess of Chester, held in dower in his bailiwick and to keep them
safely until the king orders otherwise, such that he is to answer for
the issues of the same at the Exchequer. Witness Queen E. and R. earl
of Cornwall. By the queen.
38/531 (16 May 1254)
16 May. Windsor. For Roger de Somery. Roger de Somery has bound
himself to the king by letters patent to render £82 10s. in the
queen’s Wardrobe on Monday next immediately after the Ascension of the
Lord that are exacted from him by summons of the Exchequer for the aid
towards the knighting of the king’s first-born son from one knight’s
fee that he holds of his own inheritance and from other knights’ fees
that he holds of a share of the fees formerly of Hugh de Albigny
sometime earl of Arundel. Order to the barons of the Exchequer, that
although the aforesaid Roger pledged before them to render the
aforesaid £82 10s. at the aforesaid Exchequer on the Monday next
immediately before the Ascension of the Lord, to permit the same to
have respite therefrom until the aforesaid Monday. Witness as above.
By the queen.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 8, 2012, 12:16:24 PM4/8/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my earlier posts, I might add that Google Books has a
copy of the book by Percy C. Rushen entitled History and Antiquities
of Chipping Campden, in the County of Gloucester, published in 1899.
The discussion which is pertinent to this thread starts on page 5. It
is available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0PUVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5
Mr. Rushen quotes from the inquisition post mortem of Roger de Somery
(died 1273). This inquisition makes it crystal clear that the Roger
de Somery who married Nichole d'Aubeney is the same man who married
Anabil de Chaucombe. He shows that at the time of his death in 1273,
the manor of Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire was held by Roger de
Somery by his first wife, Nichole's inheritance, and that Nichole then
had four living daughters, Margaret (wife of Ralph de Cromwell), Joan
(wife of John le Strange), Mabel (wife of Walter de Suley), and Maud
(wife of Henry de Erdington). Apparently Nichole d'Aubeney's unnamed
son who was living in 1253 had died sometime before 1273 without
issue.
Mr. Rushen quotes from the actual document dated 1274 which divided
the manor of Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire into four shares for
the surviving daughters of Nichole d'Aubeney. This is unambigious
evidence.
Elsewhere there are abstracts in print of two lawsuits which concern
the inheritance of Nichole d'Aubeney. These abstracts are published
in Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905): 531–532, 550.
They may be viewed at the following weblinks:
http://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromple00wrotrich#page/530/mode/2up
http://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromple00wrotrich#page/550/mode/2up
The first lawsuit indicates that Nichole d'Aubeney was survived by a
son, Ralph de Somery, who died in the lifetime of his father, Roger de
Somery. Thus we have evidence that Nichole d'Aubeney's son was named
Ralph de Somery.
Nichole d'Aubeney's inheritance of the Chester estates also included
the manor of Olney, Buckinghamshire. A history of this manor is
included in VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 429–439. It may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62610&strquery=Olney#s3
This source states that Ralph de Somery, son of Nichole d'Aubeney,
predeceased his mother which statement is a manifest error. Ralph de
Somery clearly survived his mother and was assigned her share of the
Chester inheritance in or before 1253. By 1282, however, Ralph de
Somery was dead without surviving issue, as the manor of Olney,
Buckinghamshire was delivered to Nichole's four surviving daughters,
Margaret widow of Ralph Basset the younger and wife of Ralph de
Cromwell, Joan wife of John Lestrange, Mabel (or Elizabeth) wife of
Walter de Sully, and Maud wife of Henry de Erdington.
In summary, we have excellent evidence in hand that Margaret le Gras'
son, Roger de Somery (died 1273), married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or
As a followup to my earlier posts, I might add that Google Books has a
copy of the book by Percy C. Rushen entitled History and Antiquities
of Chipping Campden, in the County of Gloucester, published in 1899.
The discussion which is pertinent to this thread starts on page 5. It
is available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0PUVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5
Mr. Rushen quotes from the inquisition post mortem of Roger de Somery
(died 1273). This inquisition makes it crystal clear that the Roger
de Somery who married Nichole d'Aubeney is the same man who married
Anabil de Chaucombe. He shows that at the time of his death in 1273,
the manor of Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire was held by Roger de
Somery by his first wife, Nichole's inheritance, and that Nichole then
had four living daughters, Margaret (wife of Ralph de Cromwell), Joan
(wife of John le Strange), Mabel (wife of Walter de Suley), and Maud
(wife of Henry de Erdington). Apparently Nichole d'Aubeney's unnamed
son who was living in 1253 had died sometime before 1273 without
issue.
Mr. Rushen quotes from the actual document dated 1274 which divided
the manor of Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire into four shares for
the surviving daughters of Nichole d'Aubeney. This is unambigious
evidence.
Elsewhere there are abstracts in print of two lawsuits which concern
the inheritance of Nichole d'Aubeney. These abstracts are published
in Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905): 531–532, 550.
They may be viewed at the following weblinks:
http://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromple00wrotrich#page/530/mode/2up
http://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromple00wrotrich#page/550/mode/2up
The first lawsuit indicates that Nichole d'Aubeney was survived by a
son, Ralph de Somery, who died in the lifetime of his father, Roger de
Somery. Thus we have evidence that Nichole d'Aubeney's son was named
Ralph de Somery.
Nichole d'Aubeney's inheritance of the Chester estates also included
the manor of Olney, Buckinghamshire. A history of this manor is
included in VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 429–439. It may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62610&strquery=Olney#s3
This source states that Ralph de Somery, son of Nichole d'Aubeney,
predeceased his mother which statement is a manifest error. Ralph de
Somery clearly survived his mother and was assigned her share of the
Chester inheritance in or before 1253. By 1282, however, Ralph de
Somery was dead without surviving issue, as the manor of Olney,
Buckinghamshire was delivered to Nichole's four surviving daughters,
Margaret widow of Ralph Basset the younger and wife of Ralph de
Cromwell, Joan wife of John Lestrange, Mabel (or Elizabeth) wife of
Walter de Sully, and Maud wife of Henry de Erdington.
In summary, we have excellent evidence in hand that Margaret le Gras'
son, Roger de Somery (died 1273), married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or
Colette) d'Aubeney and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe.
John
Apr 8, 2012, 12:41:00 PM4/8/12
to
On Apr 7, 10:33 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 9:24 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> < One result of this (not mentioned by Carter or Hunt) is that
> splitting
> < one Roger of the "traditional" accounts into two Rogers may suggest
> < that the assignment of two wives to the Roger who d. 1273 is also
> < incorrect and that the first wife Nicola d'Aubigny should instead be
> < assigned to the first Roger 9and thus becomes the mother of the
> second
> < Roger, d. 1273). At a quick glance, this seems to make better
> < chronological sense than the currently accepted arrangement, based
> on
> < the limited dates that are known for various members of the Somery
> < family.
>
> Mr. Hunt is definitely wrong. The evidence is solid that Roger de
> Somery (died 1273), 3rd son of Ralph de Somery (died c.1210) and
> Margaret le Gras, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
> and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe. We can be certain there was
> only one Roger de Somery and he was definitely living c.1235-47. This
> is proven by the following two records taken from the online Catalogue
> of the National Archives which concern Roger de Somery and his nephew,
> William de Englefield. These records are available atwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp. In the first
> On Apr 7, 9:24 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> < One result of this (not mentioned by Carter or Hunt) is that
> splitting
> < one Roger of the "traditional" accounts into two Rogers may suggest
> < that the assignment of two wives to the Roger who d. 1273 is also
> < incorrect and that the first wife Nicola d'Aubigny should instead be
> < assigned to the first Roger 9and thus becomes the mother of the
> second
> < Roger, d. 1273). At a quick glance, this seems to make better
> < chronological sense than the currently accepted arrangement, based
> on
> < the limited dates that are known for various members of the Somery
> < family.
>
> Mr. Hunt is definitely wrong. The evidence is solid that Roger de
> Somery (died 1273), 3rd son of Ralph de Somery (died c.1210) and
> Margaret le Gras, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
> and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe. We can be certain there was
> only one Roger de Somery and he was definitely living c.1235-47. This
> is proven by the following two records taken from the online Catalogue
> of the National Archives which concern Roger de Somery and his nephew,
> record, we learn that Roger de Somery's mother was named Margaret. I
> earlier posted evidence which proved that Margaret le Gras, mother of
> Roger de Somery, was living as late as 1247.
>
> E 210/2932: Confirmation by Roger de Sumeri of an agreement between
> Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld concerning a grant and
> exchange of lands at Bradfield, Berkshire.
>
> E 210/7057: Roger de Sumery to William de Englefeld: Quitclaim of the
> service of one knight’s fee, viz: of a hide in Humeleye and of 4 hides
> in Englefield, which Isabella, the grantor’s sister, held in dower, so
> that the grantee and his heirs are not bound to render service except
> for one knight in Englefield and another in Craunford, in accordance
> with the charter which Ralph de Sumery, the grantor’s father, made to
> Alan de Englefeld, father of the grantee. END OF QUOTE.
>
> Alan de Englefield, father of William, was living in 1226. William de
> Englefield, son and heir of Alan, was an adult in 1235 [see VCH
> Berkshire 3 (1923): 405-412; VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 168-170].
>
> I might add that the evidence is absolutely iron clad that Nichole (or
> Colette) d'Aubeney had only four daughters. As such she can't
> possibly be the mother of the Roger de Somery who married Amabil de
> Chaucombe, as suggested by Mr. Higgins.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
There are two separate issues here, which shouldn't be confused:
> earlier posted evidence which proved that Margaret le Gras, mother of
> Roger de Somery, was living as late as 1247.
>
> E 210/2932: Confirmation by Roger de Sumeri of an agreement between
> Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld concerning a grant and
> exchange of lands at Bradfield, Berkshire.
>
> E 210/7057: Roger de Sumery to William de Englefeld: Quitclaim of the
> service of one knight’s fee, viz: of a hide in Humeleye and of 4 hides
> in Englefield, which Isabella, the grantor’s sister, held in dower, so
> that the grantee and his heirs are not bound to render service except
> for one knight in Englefield and another in Craunford, in accordance
> with the charter which Ralph de Sumery, the grantor’s father, made to
> Alan de Englefeld, father of the grantee. END OF QUOTE.
>
> Alan de Englefield, father of William, was living in 1226. William de
> Englefield, son and heir of Alan, was an adult in 1235 [see VCH
> Berkshire 3 (1923): 405-412; VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 168-170].
>
> I might add that the evidence is absolutely iron clad that Nichole (or
> Colette) d'Aubeney had only four daughters. As such she can't
> possibly be the mother of the Roger de Somery who married Amabil de
> Chaucombe, as suggested by Mr. Higgins.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
1) Whether Roger de Somery (d. 1273) was the son or the grandson of
Ralph de Somery and Margaret le Gras. Carter, followed by Hunt, makes
the argument that he was the grandson, not the son.
2) Whether Roger de Somery (d. 1273) who was married to Amabil
(Chaucombe) Segrave was the same Roger who was married to Nicola
d'Aubigny. Contrary to what DR says above ("Mr. Hunt is definitely
wrong"), neither Hunt nor Carter makes this argument.
The two pieces of evidence cited above by DR simply say that Ralph de
Somery and his wife Margaret had a son Roger. They do not confirm
that this Roger was the Roger who died in 1273. And the three pieces
of evidence mentioned by DR don't address the parentage of the Roger
they refer to at all. Accordingly they don't support an argument in
either direction on the first issue - unless you presuppose that there
was only one Roger here.
I agree that that the possible conclusion suggested by the second
issue above is rather speculative at this time: whether Roger de
Somery (d. 1273) had one wife or two. But it's worth considering,
especially in light of the first issue - for which a stronger case can
be made. But again the two issues are independent of one another, at
least in the sense that a resolution of the first issue does not also
require a resolution of the second issue.
DR also says in his subsequent post that "Nichole d'Aubeney's share of
the Chester estates was subsequently divided between her four
surviving daughters, Margaret, Joan, Mabel, and Maud." What evidence
supports this?
Wjhonson
Apr 8, 2012, 1:10:41 PM4/8/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Iron clad vessels are vulnerable to torpedo.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 8, 2012, 1:47:54 PM4/8/12
to
My comments are interspersed below. DR
On Apr 8, 10:41 am, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There are two separate issues here, which shouldn't be confused:
Then don't confuse them.
> 1) Whether Roger de Somery (d. 1273) was the son or the grandson of
> Ralph de Somery and Margaret le Gras. Carter, followed by Hunt, makes
> the argument that he was the grandson, not the son.
The contemporary records don't bear out Hunt's contention. Historians
often make poor genealogists.
Hunt either ignored or suppressed evidence that Margaret le Gras' son,
Roger de Somery, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
record which shows that Margaret le Gras' son, Roger de Somery, was
living in 1240:
PRO Assize Roll 1174 Staffordshire pleas, 1240, Dugdale, Warwickshire
p. 608 m.4
"Descendit de Gervasio Paenel cuidam Hawisie ut sorori et heredit. Et
de Hawise cuidam Radulphus ut filio et heredi. Et de Radulpho cuidam
alii Radulpho ut filio et heredi. Et de isto Radulpho cuidam Willelmo
ut fratris et heredi. Et de Willelmo cuidam Nicholao ut filio et
heredi. Et de Nicholao isti Rogero ut avunculo quia non habuit
heredem de corpore suo" END OF QUOTE.
The Roger de Somery living in 1240 is clearly the one who married c.
1232 to Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de
Chaucombe.
> The two pieces of evidence cited above by DR simply say that Ralph de
> Somery and his wife Margaret had a son Roger.
Actually they do. One of the pieces of property involved in these
records was Bradfield, Berkshire which was held by the Somery family
of Dudley (in Segdley), Worcestershire. As such, we can be certain
that the Roger de Somery who had a mother Margaret and a nephew,
William de Englefield, in the period c.1235-1247 is same person as
Roger de Somery, of Dudley. Furthermore, Alan de Englefield is
clearly stated in the second record I cited as having married Ralph de
Somery's daughter. I might add that the Englefield family were
subtenants of the Somery family, of Dudley, which again confirms the
identification of the people involved in these records.
<They do not confirm that this Roger was the Roger who died in 1273.
The inquisition post mortem of Roger de Somery in 1273 makes it clear
that he had two wives, Nichole d'Aubeney and Amabil de Chaucombe. The
inquisition also makes clear that at the time of his death in 1273, he
was holding Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire in right of of his 1st
wife, Nichole's inheritance. Following Roger de Somery's death, this
manor was divided in 1274 between Nichole d'Aubeney's four surviving
daughters. That is established fact.
<And the three piece of evidence mentioned by DR don't address the
put right in your path.
The Fine Rolls make it clear that until 1272 Roger de Somery, of
Dudley, had not been succeeded by anyone. Rather he was living and
controlled his own estates from c.1229 until his death in 1273.
Had there been an intervening Roger de Somery, this would have been
reflected in the Fine Rolls. The Fine Rolls further indicate that
Nichole d'Aubeney had been survived by an unnnamed son, living c.1253,
and that he subsequently disappears from the records. The name of
that son, Ralph de Somery, is supplied from other records [see my
earlier post and the record cited below].
Here are the records in which Fine Rolls items which record the death
of Nicholas de Somery in 1229, and his succession before 1233 by his
uncle, Roger de Somery (died 1273):
1. Date: 4 July 1229. Concerning the land formerly of Nicholas son of
Perceval. Order to the sheriff of Worcestershire to take into the
king’s hand without delay all land in his bailiwick formerly of
Nicholas, son of Perceval de Somery, who is dead, and to keep it
safely until the king orders otherwise, saving his property and
chattels found in the same land to R. earl of Chester and Lincoln.
2. Date: 4 July 1229. Concerning the land formerly of Nicholas son of
Perceval. It is written in the same manner to the sheriff of
Staffordshire.
3. Date: 7 June 1233. Concerning lands to be taken into the king’s
hand. Because at this Pentecost last past Roger de Somery did not come
to the king so that he could gird him with the belt of knighthood,
order to the sheriff of Worcestershire to take the honour of Dudley
and the other lands of the same Roger in his bailiwick into the king’s
hand without delay, and to keep them safely with all chattels found
therein, so that nothing is removed therefrom until the king orders
otherwise. END OF QUOTE.
<Accordingly they don't support an argument in
< either direction on the first issue - unless you presuppose that
there
< was only one Roger here.
I don't presuppose anything. I go strictly by the evidence, not
uninformed opinion. The evidence clearly shows that the Roger de
Somery living in 1240 is the same person as married (1st) Nichole
d'Aubeney and (2nd) Amabil de Chaucombe.
> I agree that that the possible conclusion suggested by the second
> issue above is rather speculative at this time: whether Roger de
> Somery (d. 1273) had one wife or two.
Actually it is not at all speculative if Roger de Somery had two
wives. His inquisitions clearly states that he had two wives. That
is contemporary evidence.
> DR also says in his subsequent post that "Nichole d'Aubeney's share of
> the Chester estates was subsequently divided between her four
> surviving daughters, Margaret, Joan, Mabel, and Maud." What evidence
> supports this?
I've cited clear evidence for the descent of Nichole d'Aubeney's
properties.
There is additional evidence that Nichole d'Aubeney had a son, Ralph
de Somery (not Roger), who died early without issue. This information
is found in an ancient pedigree of the family of the Earls of Chester
published in Stubbs, Chronicle of the Reigns of Edward I and Edward II
1 (Rolls Ser.) (1882): 126–127 (sub Annales Londoniensis). This may
be veiwed at the following weblink:
books.google.com/books/reader?
id=GlvSAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&pg=GBS.PA126
This pedigree specifically states that Nichole d'Aubeney had one son,
Ralph, and four daughters, Margaret, Joan, Elizabeth, and Maud:
"Nicholaa [d'Aubeney] nupsit Rogero [de Someri] et habuit quemdam
filium Radulphum qui mortuus erat ante patrem suum, et habuit quator
filias, Margaretam, Johannam, Elizabetham et Matilldam; Margareta
nupsit Radulpho de Basset juniori, Johanna nupsit Johanni Lestrange,
Elizabeth Waltero de [Souli], Matillda Henrico de Erdyntone." END OF
QUOTE.
I wish to thank Charles Cawley for bringing this important record to
my attention.
On Apr 8, 10:41 am, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There are two separate issues here, which shouldn't be confused:
> 1) Whether Roger de Somery (d. 1273) was the son or the grandson of
> Ralph de Somery and Margaret le Gras. Carter, followed by Hunt, makes
> the argument that he was the grandson, not the son.
often make poor genealogists.
Hunt either ignored or suppressed evidence that Margaret le Gras' son,
Roger de Somery, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe.
For example, Complete Peerage (which Hunt saw) quotes the following
record which shows that Margaret le Gras' son, Roger de Somery, was
living in 1240:
PRO Assize Roll 1174 Staffordshire pleas, 1240, Dugdale, Warwickshire
p. 608 m.4
"Descendit de Gervasio Paenel cuidam Hawisie ut sorori et heredit. Et
de Hawise cuidam Radulphus ut filio et heredi. Et de Radulpho cuidam
alii Radulpho ut filio et heredi. Et de isto Radulpho cuidam Willelmo
ut fratris et heredi. Et de Willelmo cuidam Nicholao ut filio et
heredi. Et de Nicholao isti Rogero ut avunculo quia non habuit
heredem de corpore suo" END OF QUOTE.
The Roger de Somery living in 1240 is clearly the one who married c.
1232 to Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de
Chaucombe.
> The two pieces of evidence cited above by DR simply say that Ralph de
> Somery and his wife Margaret had a son Roger.
records was Bradfield, Berkshire which was held by the Somery family
of Dudley (in Segdley), Worcestershire. As such, we can be certain
that the Roger de Somery who had a mother Margaret and a nephew,
William de Englefield, in the period c.1235-1247 is same person as
Roger de Somery, of Dudley. Furthermore, Alan de Englefield is
clearly stated in the second record I cited as having married Ralph de
Somery's daughter. I might add that the Englefield family were
subtenants of the Somery family, of Dudley, which again confirms the
identification of the people involved in these records.
<They do not confirm that this Roger was the Roger who died in 1273.
that he had two wives, Nichole d'Aubeney and Amabil de Chaucombe. The
inquisition also makes clear that at the time of his death in 1273, he
was holding Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire in right of of his 1st
wife, Nichole's inheritance. Following Roger de Somery's death, this
manor was divided in 1274 between Nichole d'Aubeney's four surviving
daughters. That is established fact.
<And the three piece of evidence mentioned by DR don't address the
parentage of the Roger they refer to at all.
You're deliberately ignoring the evidence of the Fine Rolls which I
put right in your path.
The Fine Rolls make it clear that until 1272 Roger de Somery, of
Dudley, had not been succeeded by anyone. Rather he was living and
controlled his own estates from c.1229 until his death in 1273.
Had there been an intervening Roger de Somery, this would have been
reflected in the Fine Rolls. The Fine Rolls further indicate that
Nichole d'Aubeney had been survived by an unnnamed son, living c.1253,
and that he subsequently disappears from the records. The name of
that son, Ralph de Somery, is supplied from other records [see my
earlier post and the record cited below].
Here are the records in which Fine Rolls items which record the death
of Nicholas de Somery in 1229, and his succession before 1233 by his
uncle, Roger de Somery (died 1273):
1. Date: 4 July 1229. Concerning the land formerly of Nicholas son of
Perceval. Order to the sheriff of Worcestershire to take into the
king’s hand without delay all land in his bailiwick formerly of
Nicholas, son of Perceval de Somery, who is dead, and to keep it
safely until the king orders otherwise, saving his property and
chattels found in the same land to R. earl of Chester and Lincoln.
2. Date: 4 July 1229. Concerning the land formerly of Nicholas son of
Perceval. It is written in the same manner to the sheriff of
Staffordshire.
3. Date: 7 June 1233. Concerning lands to be taken into the king’s
hand. Because at this Pentecost last past Roger de Somery did not come
to the king so that he could gird him with the belt of knighthood,
order to the sheriff of Worcestershire to take the honour of Dudley
and the other lands of the same Roger in his bailiwick into the king’s
hand without delay, and to keep them safely with all chattels found
therein, so that nothing is removed therefrom until the king orders
otherwise. END OF QUOTE.
<Accordingly they don't support an argument in
< either direction on the first issue - unless you presuppose that
there
< was only one Roger here.
uninformed opinion. The evidence clearly shows that the Roger de
Somery living in 1240 is the same person as married (1st) Nichole
d'Aubeney and (2nd) Amabil de Chaucombe.
> I agree that that the possible conclusion suggested by the second
> issue above is rather speculative at this time: whether Roger de
> Somery (d. 1273) had one wife or two.
wives. His inquisitions clearly states that he had two wives. That
is contemporary evidence.
> DR also says in his subsequent post that "Nichole d'Aubeney's share of
> the Chester estates was subsequently divided between her four
> surviving daughters, Margaret, Joan, Mabel, and Maud." What evidence
> supports this?
properties.
There is additional evidence that Nichole d'Aubeney had a son, Ralph
de Somery (not Roger), who died early without issue. This information
is found in an ancient pedigree of the family of the Earls of Chester
published in Stubbs, Chronicle of the Reigns of Edward I and Edward II
1 (Rolls Ser.) (1882): 126–127 (sub Annales Londoniensis). This may
be veiwed at the following weblink:
books.google.com/books/reader?
id=GlvSAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&pg=GBS.PA126
This pedigree specifically states that Nichole d'Aubeney had one son,
Ralph, and four daughters, Margaret, Joan, Elizabeth, and Maud:
"Nicholaa [d'Aubeney] nupsit Rogero [de Someri] et habuit quemdam
filium Radulphum qui mortuus erat ante patrem suum, et habuit quator
filias, Margaretam, Johannam, Elizabetham et Matilldam; Margareta
nupsit Radulpho de Basset juniori, Johanna nupsit Johanni Lestrange,
Elizabeth Waltero de [Souli], Matillda Henrico de Erdyntone." END OF
QUOTE.
I wish to thank Charles Cawley for bringing this important record to
my attention.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 8, 2012, 2:03:43 PM4/8/12
to
In an earlier post today, I referred to Dudley (in Segdley),
Worcestershire.
Actually Dudley is located in Sedgley, Staffordshire.
DR
Worcestershire.
Actually Dudley is located in Sedgley, Staffordshire.
DR
Douglas Richardson
Apr 8, 2012, 2:58:23 PM4/8/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
I might add that Charles Cawley's Medlands database shows that Sir
Roger de Somery (died 1273) had two sons by his 2nd wife, Amabil de
Chaucombe, namely Roger, born in 1255, and Percival.
As evidence, Mr. Cawley cites a charter of Roger de Somery, son of Sir
Roger de Somery, dated 1277-8, which charter was witnessed by Roger's
brother, Perceval de Somery. A transcript of this charter was
published in Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Volume 8
(1887): 177. It may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JgIVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177
I might add that Charles Cawley's Medlands database shows that Sir
Roger de Somery (died 1273) had two sons by his 2nd wife, Amabil de
Chaucombe, namely Roger, born in 1255, and Percival.
As evidence, Mr. Cawley cites a charter of Roger de Somery, son of Sir
Roger de Somery, dated 1277-8, which charter was witnessed by Roger's
brother, Perceval de Somery. A transcript of this charter was
published in Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Volume 8
(1887): 177. It may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JgIVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177
John
Apr 8, 2012, 8:29:09 PM4/8/12
to
Comments are inserted below....
On Apr 8, 10:47 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> My comments are interspersed below. DR
>
> On Apr 8, 10:41 am, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > There are two separate issues here, which shouldn't be confused:
>
> Then don't confuse them.
Ummm...I've been very clear that there arr two issues here - in fact,
I made this distinction and have stuck to it. However, since it seems
to confuse you, I'll focus solely on the first (and more important)
issue of the parentage of Roger de Somery who d. 1273 and accept the
statement of CP (and other sources) that this Roger had two wives.
>
> > 1) Whether Roger de Somery (d. 1273) was the son or the grandson of
> > Ralph de Somery and Margaret le Gras. Carter, followed by Hunt, makes
> > the argument that he was the grandson, not the son.
>
> The contemporary records don't bear out Hunt's contention. Historians
> often make poor genealogists.
>
> Hunt either ignored or suppressed evidence that Margaret le Gras' son,
> Roger de Somery, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
> and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe.
It's hard to see how you can make any educated assessment of Hunt's
work since, by your own earlier statement, you've accessed the work
only via snippet views in Google Books. In fact, if you had read the
book rather than just the snippets and followed up on its sources, you
would see quickly (as I mentioned previously) that Hunt has not
"ignored or suppressed evidence" that Roger de Somery (d. 1273) had
two wives. On the contrary, he agrees with this conclusion. The
question is the parentage of this Roger. Before you denigrate - and
misstate - Hunt's work (without reading it), you should follow up on
the sources he cited. Perhaps you might reach a different conclusion.
It's also ironic that you are now so derogatory toward Hunt's work
when you previously cited him, without qualification or question, to
support your conclusion regarding Margaret le Gras. Could it be that
your opinion of him has changed because he now disagrees with you on
another matter - a matter which you haven't yet fully researched?
>
> For example, Complete Peerage (which Hunt saw) quotes the following
> record which shows that Margaret le Gras' son, Roger de Somery, was
> living in 1240:
>
> PRO Assize Roll 1174 Staffordshire pleas, 1240, Dugdale, Warwickshire
> p. 608 m.4
>
> "Descendit de Gervasio Paenel cuidam Hawisie ut sorori et heredit. Et
> de Hawise cuidam Radulphus ut filio et heredi. Et de Radulpho cuidam
> alii Radulpho ut filio et heredi. Et de isto Radulpho cuidam Willelmo
> ut fratris et heredi. Et de Willelmo cuidam Nicholao ut filio et
> heredi. Et de Nicholao isti Rogero ut avunculo quia non habuit
> heredem de corpore suo" END OF QUOTE.
>
> The Roger de Somery living in 1240 is clearly the one who married c.
> 1232 to Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de
> Chaucombe.
No, it's NOT clear that this Roger is the one who married twice -
unless you've already proved the non-existence of another Roger, which
you haven't.
Roger was the Roger who died in 1273" - again, unless you've already
proved the non-existence of another Roger, which you haven't.
Roger who died in 1273. That's an assumption.
None of these records prove that the Roger who was the uncle of
Nicholas de Somery was the Roger who died in 1273. That's an
assumption.
>
> <Accordingly they don't support an argument in
> < either direction on the first issue - unless you presuppose that
> there
> < was only one Roger here.
>
> I don't presuppose anything. I go strictly by the evidence, not
> uninformed opinion. The evidence clearly shows that the Roger de
> Somery living in 1240 is the same person as married (1st) Nichole
> d'Aubeney and (2nd) Amabil de Chaucombe.
No, it doesn't clearly show that - unless you want it to show that.
[snip of information regarding the two wives of Roger (d. 1273) which
is not pertinent to the question of his parentage]
> > DR also says in his subsequent post that "Nichole d'Aubeney's share of
> > the Chester estates was subsequently divided between her four
> > surviving daughters, Margaret, Joan, Mabel, and Maud." What evidence
> > supports this?
>
> I've cited clear evidence for the descent of Nichole d'Aubeney's
> properties.
Yes, I see that you posted this evidence, from Rushen's book on
Chipping Camden, earlier this morning, at approximately the same time
I was composing the post to which you are replying above. Thank you
for posting this - the two posts essentially crossed in midstream, so
to speak. Incidentally, Grazebrook's 1882 article on the feudal
barons of Dudley has considerably more information on the IPM of Roger
de Somery (d. 1273) than is provided by Rushen - including the IPM
statement that Roger was the grandson, not the son, of Ralph and
Margaret.
[snip of further information regarding the two wives of Roger (d.
1273) which is not pertinent to the question of his parentage]
It's unfortunate that participation in this group has dwindled to the
point where there is no input from others on an issue like this -
which would definitely not have been the case a few years ago.
Without such additional input, i suspect that a continued discussion
of this matter will not be fruitful. But perhaps I'll be proved wrong
- we'll see....
On Apr 8, 10:47 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> My comments are interspersed below. DR
>
> On Apr 8, 10:41 am, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > There are two separate issues here, which shouldn't be confused:
>
> Then don't confuse them.
I made this distinction and have stuck to it. However, since it seems
to confuse you, I'll focus solely on the first (and more important)
issue of the parentage of Roger de Somery who d. 1273 and accept the
statement of CP (and other sources) that this Roger had two wives.
>
> > 1) Whether Roger de Somery (d. 1273) was the son or the grandson of
> > Ralph de Somery and Margaret le Gras. Carter, followed by Hunt, makes
> > the argument that he was the grandson, not the son.
>
> The contemporary records don't bear out Hunt's contention. Historians
> often make poor genealogists.
>
> Hunt either ignored or suppressed evidence that Margaret le Gras' son,
> Roger de Somery, married (1st) c.1232 Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney
> and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de Chaucombe.
work since, by your own earlier statement, you've accessed the work
only via snippet views in Google Books. In fact, if you had read the
book rather than just the snippets and followed up on its sources, you
would see quickly (as I mentioned previously) that Hunt has not
"ignored or suppressed evidence" that Roger de Somery (d. 1273) had
two wives. On the contrary, he agrees with this conclusion. The
question is the parentage of this Roger. Before you denigrate - and
misstate - Hunt's work (without reading it), you should follow up on
the sources he cited. Perhaps you might reach a different conclusion.
It's also ironic that you are now so derogatory toward Hunt's work
when you previously cited him, without qualification or question, to
support your conclusion regarding Margaret le Gras. Could it be that
your opinion of him has changed because he now disagrees with you on
another matter - a matter which you haven't yet fully researched?
>
> For example, Complete Peerage (which Hunt saw) quotes the following
> record which shows that Margaret le Gras' son, Roger de Somery, was
> living in 1240:
>
> PRO Assize Roll 1174 Staffordshire pleas, 1240, Dugdale, Warwickshire
> p. 608 m.4
>
> "Descendit de Gervasio Paenel cuidam Hawisie ut sorori et heredit. Et
> de Hawise cuidam Radulphus ut filio et heredi. Et de Radulpho cuidam
> alii Radulpho ut filio et heredi. Et de isto Radulpho cuidam Willelmo
> ut fratris et heredi. Et de Willelmo cuidam Nicholao ut filio et
> heredi. Et de Nicholao isti Rogero ut avunculo quia non habuit
> heredem de corpore suo" END OF QUOTE.
>
> The Roger de Somery living in 1240 is clearly the one who married c.
> 1232 to Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney and (2nd) c.1254 Amabil de
> Chaucombe.
unless you've already proved the non-existence of another Roger, which
you haven't.
>
> > The two pieces of evidence cited above by DR simply say that Ralph de
> > Somery and his wife Margaret had a son Roger.
>
> Actually they do. One of the pieces of property involved in these
> records was Bradfield, Berkshire which was held by the Somery family
> of Dudley (in Segdley), Worcestershire. As such, we can be certain
> that the Roger de Somery who had a mother Margaret and a nephew,
> William de Englefield, in the period c.1235-1247 is same person as
> Roger de Somery, of Dudley. Furthermore, Alan de Englefield is
> clearly stated in the second record I cited as having married Ralph de
> Somery's daughter. I might add that the Englefield family were
> subtenants of the Somery family, of Dudley, which again confirms the
> identification of the people involved in these records.
>
> <They do not confirm that this Roger was the Roger who died in 1273.
>
> The inquisition post mortem of Roger de Somery in 1273 makes it clear
> that he had two wives, Nichole d'Aubeney and Amabil de Chaucombe. The
> inquisition also makes clear that at the time of his death in 1273, he
> was holding Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire in right of of his 1st
> wife, Nichole's inheritance. Following Roger de Somery's death, this
> manor was divided in 1274 between Nichole d'Aubeney's four surviving
> daughters. That is established fact.
I'll repeat my statement, which you apparently misread: "The two
> > The two pieces of evidence cited above by DR simply say that Ralph de
> > Somery and his wife Margaret had a son Roger.
>
> Actually they do. One of the pieces of property involved in these
> records was Bradfield, Berkshire which was held by the Somery family
> of Dudley (in Segdley), Worcestershire. As such, we can be certain
> that the Roger de Somery who had a mother Margaret and a nephew,
> William de Englefield, in the period c.1235-1247 is same person as
> Roger de Somery, of Dudley. Furthermore, Alan de Englefield is
> clearly stated in the second record I cited as having married Ralph de
> Somery's daughter. I might add that the Englefield family were
> subtenants of the Somery family, of Dudley, which again confirms the
> identification of the people involved in these records.
>
> <They do not confirm that this Roger was the Roger who died in 1273.
>
> The inquisition post mortem of Roger de Somery in 1273 makes it clear
> that he had two wives, Nichole d'Aubeney and Amabil de Chaucombe. The
> inquisition also makes clear that at the time of his death in 1273, he
> was holding Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire in right of of his 1st
> wife, Nichole's inheritance. Following Roger de Somery's death, this
> manor was divided in 1274 between Nichole d'Aubeney's four surviving
> daughters. That is established fact.
pieces of evidence cited above by DR simply say that Ralph de Somery
and his wife Margaret had a son Roger. They do not confirm that this
Roger was the Roger who died in 1273" - again, unless you've already
proved the non-existence of another Roger, which you haven't.
>
> <And the three piece of evidence mentioned by DR don't address the
> parentage of the Roger they refer to at all.
>
> You're deliberately ignoring the evidence of the Fine Rolls which I
> put right in your path.
>
> The Fine Rolls make it clear that until 1272 Roger de Somery, of
> Dudley, had not been succeeded by anyone. Rather he was living and
> controlled his own estates from c.1229 until his death in 1273.
The Fine Rolls do not prove that the Roger living ca. 1229 is the same
> <And the three piece of evidence mentioned by DR don't address the
> parentage of the Roger they refer to at all.
>
> You're deliberately ignoring the evidence of the Fine Rolls which I
> put right in your path.
>
> The Fine Rolls make it clear that until 1272 Roger de Somery, of
> Dudley, had not been succeeded by anyone. Rather he was living and
> controlled his own estates from c.1229 until his death in 1273.
Roger who died in 1273. That's an assumption.
Nicholas de Somery was the Roger who died in 1273. That's an
assumption.
>
> <Accordingly they don't support an argument in
> < either direction on the first issue - unless you presuppose that
> there
> < was only one Roger here.
>
> I don't presuppose anything. I go strictly by the evidence, not
> uninformed opinion. The evidence clearly shows that the Roger de
> Somery living in 1240 is the same person as married (1st) Nichole
> d'Aubeney and (2nd) Amabil de Chaucombe.
[snip of information regarding the two wives of Roger (d. 1273) which
is not pertinent to the question of his parentage]
> > DR also says in his subsequent post that "Nichole d'Aubeney's share of
> > the Chester estates was subsequently divided between her four
> > surviving daughters, Margaret, Joan, Mabel, and Maud." What evidence
> > supports this?
>
> I've cited clear evidence for the descent of Nichole d'Aubeney's
> properties.
Chipping Camden, earlier this morning, at approximately the same time
I was composing the post to which you are replying above. Thank you
for posting this - the two posts essentially crossed in midstream, so
to speak. Incidentally, Grazebrook's 1882 article on the feudal
barons of Dudley has considerably more information on the IPM of Roger
de Somery (d. 1273) than is provided by Rushen - including the IPM
statement that Roger was the grandson, not the son, of Ralph and
Margaret.
[snip of further information regarding the two wives of Roger (d.
1273) which is not pertinent to the question of his parentage]
It's unfortunate that participation in this group has dwindled to the
point where there is no input from others on an issue like this -
which would definitely not have been the case a few years ago.
Without such additional input, i suspect that a continued discussion
of this matter will not be fruitful. But perhaps I'll be proved wrong
- we'll see....
Suzanne St. John
Jul 25, 2014, 9:12:58 PM7/25/14
to
Hello,
I am new to this whole newsgroup venue so please be kind (I know my research results differ from public opinion) but I am researching the de Somery family because my St. John lineage began holding an estate in Dinas Powys, Glamorgan, Wales once held by the de Somery family. I believe this refers to the de Somery of Dudley family. Glamorgan Archaeologist, Howard J. Thomas excavated this property, the manor house and the parish located there and in his report he said it was once held by the de Somery family that went "extinct" in 1320; he says they held Dinas Powys - a large subfee of the original Penmark land held by the Umfreville family. Howard J. Thomas uses the word extinct to refer to the male line ending.
I'm trying to figure out how this estate ended up in the possession of John St. John. Maybe he married a de Somery daughter? I saw one married a Sutton, in a list where only 2 were listed but then I saw something in this post that there may have been 4 daughters (but possibly earlier - it was hard to follow this string).
By 1400, this John St. John built their principal manor house on this plot of land. The estate was originally recorded (circa 1254) "Hukheloleu" which roughly means "ridgeway" or "high path" but it was incorrectly translated to English in later centuries and the incorrect translation remains; often spelled phonetically Ychelley and Uchelola. The Welsh word Uchel-olau translates to "High"-"light" in English; rather than high path or ridgeway. Today, this abandoned medieval village, is commonly known as Highlight.
This John St. John d. 1429 should not be confused with the John St. John of the Fonmon de Port-St. John d. 1424 family. Somehow, when this family moved into Glamorgan Wales in the 1300s, historians / genealogists began merging them as one family with the de Port-St. Johns (I have copies of original records showing where these errors exist). These are two unrelated families until you get back to Normandy circa 1053-1100s.
I have also been bouncing around the idea that de Somery and de Sancto Johanne may be different surnames representing the same family and maybe John St. John d. 1429 obtained the property through direct inheritance. Surnames were often obtained by the properties (de Sancto Johnne means of St. John for example) held by the individual and didn't represent genetic paternal surname descent as seen today. St. John at the edge of the sea (now St. Jean-le-Thomas) and Somery / Someri were estates in Normandy held by those close to William the Conqueror.
Any insight would be most helpful. My best guess is this John St. John married a de Somery daughter and obtained the estate through marriage; because his father died without "acknowledging" him as a son, he lost his St. John family estate to his uncle so upon marriage (I speculate) he built his manor house on this new property which remained in his family until 1728. The Archaeological report believes the h-shaped manor house was built in 1400s to replace a much smaller house that was on land surrounded by a moat.
Warm Regards,
Suz
On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:55:38 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
>
>
> In Charles Cawley's online Medlands database, he states the following:
>
>
>
> "RALPH de Somery (-[Jan/Jul] 1210). m as her first husband, MARGARET
>
> Somery as the earl's sister is not at all certain.
>
> that Ralph de Somery's wife, Margaret, was actually the daughter of
>
> recorded before 1194 between a Ralph de Somery, of the honor of
> National Archives, E 210/2932 (undated confirmation by Roger de Sumeri
>
> (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
I am new to this whole newsgroup venue so please be kind (I know my research results differ from public opinion) but I am researching the de Somery family because my St. John lineage began holding an estate in Dinas Powys, Glamorgan, Wales once held by the de Somery family. I believe this refers to the de Somery of Dudley family. Glamorgan Archaeologist, Howard J. Thomas excavated this property, the manor house and the parish located there and in his report he said it was once held by the de Somery family that went "extinct" in 1320; he says they held Dinas Powys - a large subfee of the original Penmark land held by the Umfreville family. Howard J. Thomas uses the word extinct to refer to the male line ending.
I'm trying to figure out how this estate ended up in the possession of John St. John. Maybe he married a de Somery daughter? I saw one married a Sutton, in a list where only 2 were listed but then I saw something in this post that there may have been 4 daughters (but possibly earlier - it was hard to follow this string).
By 1400, this John St. John built their principal manor house on this plot of land. The estate was originally recorded (circa 1254) "Hukheloleu" which roughly means "ridgeway" or "high path" but it was incorrectly translated to English in later centuries and the incorrect translation remains; often spelled phonetically Ychelley and Uchelola. The Welsh word Uchel-olau translates to "High"-"light" in English; rather than high path or ridgeway. Today, this abandoned medieval village, is commonly known as Highlight.
This John St. John d. 1429 should not be confused with the John St. John of the Fonmon de Port-St. John d. 1424 family. Somehow, when this family moved into Glamorgan Wales in the 1300s, historians / genealogists began merging them as one family with the de Port-St. Johns (I have copies of original records showing where these errors exist). These are two unrelated families until you get back to Normandy circa 1053-1100s.
I have also been bouncing around the idea that de Somery and de Sancto Johanne may be different surnames representing the same family and maybe John St. John d. 1429 obtained the property through direct inheritance. Surnames were often obtained by the properties (de Sancto Johnne means of St. John for example) held by the individual and didn't represent genetic paternal surname descent as seen today. St. John at the edge of the sea (now St. Jean-le-Thomas) and Somery / Someri were estates in Normandy held by those close to William the Conqueror.
Any insight would be most helpful. My best guess is this John St. John married a de Somery daughter and obtained the estate through marriage; because his father died without "acknowledging" him as a son, he lost his St. John family estate to his uncle so upon marriage (I speculate) he built his manor house on this new property which remained in his family until 1728. The Archaeological report believes the h-shaped manor house was built in 1400s to replace a much smaller house that was on land surrounded by a moat.
Warm Regards,
Suz
On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:55:38 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
>
>
> In Charles Cawley's online Medlands database, he states the following:
>
>
>
>
> Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
>
> Salisbury] (-after [1242/43]). The primary source which confirms her
>
> parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. The Complete
>
> Peerage names her and records her marriage but does not the cite the
>
> primary source on which this information is based[1033]. The Pipe
>
> Roll 1210 records that "Margareta que fuit uxor Radulfi de Sumeri"
>
> arranged to pay an instalment of her fine for the assignment of her
>
> dower in midsummer[1034]. She married secondly Maurice de Gant." END
>
> OF QUOTE.
>
>
>
> Marshal, daughter of [JOHN Marshal & his second wife Sibyl of
>
> Salisbury] (-after [1242/43]). The primary source which confirms her
>
> parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. The Complete
>
> Peerage names her and records her marriage but does not the cite the
>
> primary source on which this information is based[1033]. The Pipe
>
> Roll 1210 records that "Margareta que fuit uxor Radulfi de Sumeri"
>
> arranged to pay an instalment of her fine for the assignment of her
>
> dower in midsummer[1034]. She married secondly Maurice de Gant." END
>
> OF QUOTE.
>
>
>
> While Complete Peerage does claim in its Berkeley and Somery accounts
>
> that Margaret, wife of Ralph de Somery, was the sister of William
>
>
> Marshal (died 1219), Earl of Pembroke, I've always found that claim
>
> rather doubtful. Indeed the editor's comments in both the Berkeley
>
> and Somery accounts suggest that the identification of Margaret de
> Marshal (died 1219), Earl of Pembroke, I've always found that claim
>
> rather doubtful. Indeed the editor's comments in both the Berkeley
>
>
> Somery as the earl's sister is not at all certain.
>
>
>
> Recently I came across John Hunt's book, Lordship and the Landscape
>
>
>
> Recently I came across John Hunt's book, Lordship and the Landscape
>
> (1994), which discusses the early history of the Somery family. On
>
> pages 34-35, he presents concrete evidence from the Brooksby Cartulary
>
>
> that Ralph de Somery's wife, Margaret, was actually the daughter of
>
> William le Gras, which William is thought to have been married to a
>
> sister of Earl William Marshal. Thus, it would appear that Margaret
>
> de Somery was the Earl's niece, not his daughter as claimed by
> William le Gras, which William is thought to have been married to a
>
> sister of Earl William Marshal. Thus, it would appear that Margaret
>
>
> Complete Peerage.
>
>
>
> I can only provide partial abstracts from John Hunt's book as Google
>
> Books limit my view of his material. Regardless, this is what I can
>
> glean from the parts of pages 34 and 35 that I can see online:
>
>
>
> "The Marcher connection may also be reflected in the marriage of John
>
> and Hawise's son, Ralph I de Somery, to Margaret. There is a marriage
> Complete Peerage.
>
>
>
> I can only provide partial abstracts from John Hunt's book as Google
>
> Books limit my view of his material. Regardless, this is what I can
>
> glean from the parts of pages 34 and 35 that I can see online:
>
>
>
> "The Marcher connection may also be reflected in the marriage of John
>
>
> recorded before 1194 between a Ralph de Somery, of the honor of
>
> Gloucester, and Margaret, the daughter of William le Gros; William was
>
> a Gloucestershire knight who served the earl of Gloucester and was
>
> married to a sister of William Marshal I, earl of Pembroke (d. 1219).
>
> That this represents ...[part is missing here DR] .... The marriage of
>
> the future baron of Dudley is suggested by two documents surviving in
>
> the Brooksby cartulary. The first is the marriage contract itself, in
>
> which it is stated that William le Gros gave his land at Little Dalby
>
> to Ralph de Somery as part of the marriage agreement. The second is a
> Gloucester, and Margaret, the daughter of William le Gros; William was
>
> a Gloucestershire knight who served the earl of Gloucester and was
>
> married to a sister of William Marshal I, earl of Pembroke (d. 1219).
>
> That this represents ...[part is missing here DR] .... The marriage of
>
> the future baron of Dudley is suggested by two documents surviving in
>
> the Brooksby cartulary. The first is the marriage contract itself, in
>
> which it is stated that William le Gros gave his land at Little Dalby
>
>
> confirmation charter, which may be dated to not earlier than c.1210,
>
> by which William Crassus, Margaret de Somery's brother, confirmed his
> confirmation charter, which may be dated to not earlier than c.1210,
>
>
> widowed sister's grant of lands in ..."). END OF QUOTE.
>
>
>
> widowed sister's grant of lands in ..."). END OF QUOTE.
>
>
>
> That William le Gras' wife was the sister of William Marshal is
>
> supported to three references to kinship between the Gras and Marshal
>
> families. In the first reference below, William le Gras the elder is
>
> styled "consanguineum" by William le Marshal the younger in a letter
>
> dated 1224. In the second reference below, Anselm le Gras, Bishop of
>
> St. David's, is styled "nepos Marescalli" [i.e., kinsman of the Earl
>
> of Pembroke]. William le Gras the elder and Anselm le Gras are
>
> thought to be sons of the earlier William le Gras (living 1210, dead
>
> by 1219), who married Earl Marshal's sister. The son William le Gras
>
> is styled "the elder" or "first born" in records as the earlier
>
> William le Gras had two sons named William. The third reference below
>
> is a record dated 1221-2, in which Joan de Somery, daughter of
>
> Margaret le Gras, is styled "neptem" [kinswoman] by William Marshal
>
> the younger, Earl of Pembroke.
>
>
>
> 1. Shirley, Royal & Other Hist. Letters Ill. of King Henry III 1
>
> (1862) (Rolls Ser. 27): 500-503 [letter of William Marshal, Earl of
>
> supported to three references to kinship between the Gras and Marshal
>
> families. In the first reference below, William le Gras the elder is
>
> styled "consanguineum" by William le Marshal the younger in a letter
>
> dated 1224. In the second reference below, Anselm le Gras, Bishop of
>
> St. David's, is styled "nepos Marescalli" [i.e., kinsman of the Earl
>
> of Pembroke]. William le Gras the elder and Anselm le Gras are
>
> thought to be sons of the earlier William le Gras (living 1210, dead
>
> by 1219), who married Earl Marshal's sister. The son William le Gras
>
> is styled "the elder" or "first born" in records as the earlier
>
> William le Gras had two sons named William. The third reference below
>
> is a record dated 1221-2, in which Joan de Somery, daughter of
>
> Margaret le Gras, is styled "neptem" [kinswoman] by William Marshal
>
> the younger, Earl of Pembroke.
>
>
>
> 1. Shirley, Royal & Other Hist. Letters Ill. of King Henry III 1
>
>
> of an agreement between Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld
>
> concerning a grant and exchange of lands at Bradfield, Berkshire)
> of an agreement between Margaret his mother and William de Englefeld
>
>
> (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Steve Barnhoorn
Jul 28, 2014, 8:19:41 PM7/28/14
to
Looks like David Crouch also came across the same conclusion, Doug:
http://books.google.com/books?id=IOihAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=Brooksby+Cartulary&source=bl&ots=xig8HNPiZF&sig=oqd3DBTn9Hj8xRfaGmifVDGnMh8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BOjWU9yxNsasyAS734DYCw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Brooksby%20Cartulary&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=IOihAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=Brooksby+Cartulary&source=bl&ots=xig8HNPiZF&sig=oqd3DBTn9Hj8xRfaGmifVDGnMh8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BOjWU9yxNsasyAS734DYCw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Brooksby%20Cartulary&f=false
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