Chronology Issues Regarding the Tamworth Line Found in the Visitation of Lincolnshire? Especially in the Leake, Willoughby Generations

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Hello,

Looking at the Tamworth line in the Visitation of Lincolnshire it seems that there are too many generations between the Sir Nicholas Tamworth who married Joan Wyse mentioned by John Watson in his thread and the Margaret Tamworth (dau of John Tamworth) who died around 1476 and was married to Sir Guy Wolston. The number of generations in the Visitation does not seem possible. It seems like there are far too many.

Link to the Tamworth entry in the Visitation of Lincolnshire
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00cook#page/n247/mode/2up

One area where it seems muddy and some confusion may be is in the generations at the bottom of the first page of visitation pedigree.

Nicholas Tamworth = (1st wife) Anne da. to Gilbert, Lo. Lysley (?Lisle)
Sir Nicholas Tamworth, Knight = Anne, da. of the Lord Willoughby
Sir John Tamworth, Knight = Anne, da. and heir to Sir Simon le Lake sive Leake

I came across an excerpt on the parish of Cotham from Thoroton’s History of Nottinghamshire on BHO that was interesting. There is an excerpt that states:
Simon Leek married Joane Talbot daughter and heir of Sir John Talbot of Swannington (widow of Sir Thomas Malory), and that they had 4 daughter and heirs:
Eldest was Mary, second Wife of Sir Gyles D'aubeney
2nd was Margaret who married Sir John Markham
3rd Elizabeth who married Sir Hugh Hercy, of Grove
4th Anne who married Richard Willoughby

The fn.17 to fn. 21 on the page linked below is the portion regarding the Leeks.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol1/pp341-345#anchorn18

Robert Thoroton, 'Parishes: Cotham', in Thoroton's History of Nottinghamshire: Volume 1, Republished With Large Additions By John Throsby, ed. John Throsby (Nottingham, 1790), pp. 341-345. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol1/pp341-345 [accessed 21 January 2017].

There is a biography on the Richard Willoughby within the University of Nottingham: Manuscripts and Special Collections section of their website linked below. It says Richard Willoughby married Anne the daughter of Simon Leek, but they had no issue.

Could Anne daughter of Simon Leek have married a Tamworth also and had children?
Is it possible that the Anne’s in the two generations in the visitation regarding the daughters of Lord Willoughby and Sir Simon Leake were the same person, and that Anne was a wife Willoughby rather than a daughter?

The biography states that Anne Leek d.1467 and that Richard Willoughby d.1471, so if this Anne was married to a Tamworth it would have been an earlier marriage.

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/collectionsindepth/family/middleton/biographies/biographyofrichardwilloughby(-1471).aspx

Even if the Anne’s in the two generations are the same and married a Tamworth, the chronology in the visitations pedigree still does not seem to fit, considering Margaret Tamworth who married Sir Guy Wolston died abt. 1476 and Anne Leek d.1467 and Richard Willoughby d.1471.

Any thoughts or insight would are welcome and appreciated.
Jordan.

[wjhonson]

There was more than one person named Simon Leeke

For example there was one who married Margaret Vaux and is the *grandfather* of the one you cite here who had the four co-heiresses including Anne (Leeke) Willoughby who died in 1467

However the one in the Vis is so vaguely defined in the distant past that he could exist anywhere from one to three hundred years earlier

But the idea that they are the same person is a non-starter

[sass...@charter.net]

could someone explain to me what are Visitation?
than you
debbie

-----------------------------------------From: "Jordan Vandenberg"
To:
Cc:
Sent: 28-Jan-2017 02:05:16 +0000
Subject: Chronology Issues Regarding the Tamworth Line Found in the
Visitation of Lincolnshire? Especially in the Leake, Willoughby
Generations

Hello,

Looking at the Tamworth line in the Visitation of Lincolnshire it
seems that there are too many generations between the Sir Nicholas
Tamworth who married Joan Wyse mentioned by John Watson in his thread
and the Margaret Tamworth (dau of John Tamworth) who died around 1476
and was married to Sir Guy Wolston. The number of generations in the
Visitation does not seem possible. It seems like there are far too
many.

Link to the Tamworth entry in the Visitation of Lincolnshire
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00cook#page/n247/mode/2up

/>

One area where it seems muddy and some confusion may be is in the
generations at the bottom of the first page of visitation pedigree.

Nicholas Tamworth = (1st wife) Anne da. to Gilbert, Lo. Lysley
(?Lisle)
Sir Nicholas Tamworth, Knight = Anne, da. of the Lord Willoughby
Sir John Tamworth, Knight = Anne, da. and heir to Sir Simon le Lake
sive Leake

I came across an excerpt on the parish of Cotham from Thoroton’s
History of Nottinghamshire on BHO that was interesting. There is an
excerpt that states:
Simon Leek married Joane Talbot daughter and heir of Sir John Talbot
of Swannington (widow of Sir Thomas Malory), and that they had 4
daughter and heirs:
Eldest was Mary, second Wife of Sir Gyles D'aubeney
2nd was Margaret who married Sir John Markham
3rd Elizabeth who married Sir Hugh Hercy, of Grove
4th Anne who married Richard Willoughby

The fn.17 to fn. 21 on the page linked below is the portion regarding
the Leeks.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol1/pp341-345#anchorn18
/>

Robert Thoroton, 'Parishes: Cotham', in Thoroton's History of
Nottinghamshire: Volume 1, Republished With Large Additions By John
Throsby, ed. John Throsby (Nottingham, 1790), pp. 341-345. British
History Online
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol1/pp341-345
[accessed 21 January 2017].

There is a biography on the Richard Willoughby within the University
of Nottingham: Manuscripts and Special Collections section of their
website linked below. It says Richard Willoughby married Anne the
daughter of Simon Leek, but they had no issue.

Could Anne daughter of Simon Leek have married a Tamworth also and
had children?
Is it possible that the Anne’s in the two generations in the
visitation regarding the daughters of Lord Willoughby and Sir Simon
Leake were the same person, and that Anne was a wife Willoughby rather
than a daughter?

The biography states that Anne Leek d.1467 and that Richard
Willoughby d.1471, so if this Anne was married to a Tamworth it would
have been an earlier marriage.

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/collectionsindepth/family/middleton/biographies/biographyofrichardwilloughby(-1471).aspx
/>

Even if the Anne’s in the two generations are the same and married
a Tamworth, the chronology in the visitations pedigree still does not
seem to fit, considering Margaret Tamworth who married Sir Guy Wolston
died abt. 1476 and Anne Leek d.1467 and Richard Willoughby d.1471.

Any thoughts or insight would are welcome and appreciated.
Jordan.

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[taf]

On Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 5:24:14 PM UTC-8, sass...@charter.net wrote:
> could someone explain to me what are Visitation?
> than you
> debbie

Debbie,

In this context, the term visitation refers to the heraldic visitations. In the 15th and 16th centuries, the College of Arms sent representatives to the counties to inquire into whether the families using coats of arms had a legitimate right to them. To document their usage, a family would provide a pedigree, tracing themselves to someone who received a grant of these arms, or show that they had been using them from time immemorial. Thus the visitations represent a genealogical snapshot of the gentry of a given county.

There are several issues with the visitations. First of all, the failure to have a sufficient pedigree would require a family to pay for a new grant of arms, so there was a motivation for them to 'improve' their pedigrees. For that matter, they might do so for other reasons as well. Self glorification, social climbing, or legal reasons - I was just talking about one in which a completely fraudulent pedigree was entered, apparently to provide cover against an ongoing lawsuit challenging their rights to the lands that they held.

Also, the originals were deposited in the College of Arms, which is a closed collection. The published versions of the visitations are mostly taken from copies of variable accuracy, sometimes containing transcription errors as well as with additions by the owners of the manuscripts that may not be as accurate as the original material. Thus one must use them with care.

Nonetheless, for the period roughly 1500-1650, they represent an invaluable source.

For published examples, see:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/visitations.shtml

taf

[John Watson]

Dear Jordan,

Have you been able to find any contemporary record of "Sir Thomas Tamworth, kt", shown in the pedigree as son of Sir Nicholas Tamworth and Joan or Jane his wife. I have been unable to find a single record. Either he lived a quiet and peaceful life or he is a figment of someone's imagination.

Regards,

John

[wjhonson]

After reviewing all my notes on this ascent, I agree there is a problem.
It's much too long. I suspect that a side branch has been created as an ascent so the line should be much shorter.

I'm just not sure where to break it apart.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

John,
I have not been able to find anything that links Thomas to Sir Nicholas and Joan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Where I begin to really question it, is above John Tamworth who married Elizabeth Clement. The thread that discusses the quartered Tamworth arms has a link to the arms and they include Clement and some of the other ancestral surnames on the line in the Visitation that branches off from Elizabeth Clement, such as Bell and Holland. There is no mention of any of the paternal names above that John Tamworth, and I have been unable to find any primary evidence for his supposed father's link to Isabel dau. of Jo. Ayscough. What do you think?

[John Watson]

Dear Jordan,

According to a letter and footnotes in Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 13 Part 1, pages 399-400,
Thomas Tamworth died on 30 January 1533, seised of a messuage and and 58 acres of land in Leeke, Lincolnshire, leaving his son and heir, John, aged 8-1/2 years and 60 days. Another John Tamworth (probably the brother of this Thomas) died on 23 December 1539.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000005063163;view=1up;seq=459

See also http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7485459

I don't see how this fits in with the pedigree of Tamworth of Leek at all. I am starting to believe that most of the early part of the pedigree is a work of fiction.

Regards,
John

[wjhonson]

This would be the Thomas who married Elizabeth Denkaringe
The son John would be that one who married Christian Walsingham in 1562 and died in 1569/70

[Jordan Vandenberg]

John,
The Thomas Tamworth you referred to in the last post is the Thomas Tamworth who married Elizabeth Denkaring and was father to John Tamworth (the subject of the Tamworth quartered arms thread). The links below are in reference to this John Tamworth. When you look at the Visitation, this Thomas and his son John are on the 2nd page. There are far too many generations of Tamworth in the pedigree based on what you found on Sir Nicholas who married Joan, and what can be confirmed date wise on the lower part of the pedigree.


https://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/TAM001_s1
https://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/content/tamworth-john

Below is also a biography on the John Tamworth you mentioned son of Thomas and Elizabeth Denkaring.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/tamworth-john-1524-69

[Jordan Vandenberg]

The Visitation Tamworth line is somewhat mirrored in this description in: The History and Antiquities of Boston, and the Villages of Skirbeck ... by Pishey Thompson. I question the validity of either for the top part of the pedigree.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=x8w-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA587&lpg=PA587&dq=John+tamworth%22+history+of+parliament&source=bl&ots=Zs5v7Ehofw&sig=DyBl-u5XkUBaHmOTnIvznmKVyes&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=John%20tamworth%22%20history%20of%20parliament&f=false

[karen sims]

Just for the record here - Elizabeth "Denkaring" was the daughter of
Phillipe De Caruges, Doctor of Physick and servant to our sovereign lord
the king.
His will, dated 1 Apr 1531, proved 24 Feb 1533-34. wife Elizabeth,
daughter Elizabeth and her son John Tamworth. Elizabeth remarried Sir
William Musgrave as his 2nd wife.

Her mother, Elizabeth Fynche, was the daughter of James (Jamys) Fynche,
citizen and sherman of London, will dated 15 Feb 1508-09 proved 20 Jul
1509 - James Fynch had 3 daughters - Elizabeth married to "Philip
Carringe" and 2 unmarried daughters, Margarete and Johane.

Elizabeth (ne: Fynche) De Caruges also has a will, dated and proved 25 Sep
1536 and now the surname is spelled "de Carywgis"
daughter Musgrave, brother (brother-in-law?) Nicholas Waryng and sister
Warying, John Tamworth, my daughter's son, Sir William Musgrave, many other
names

I have also found the surname spelled

On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Jordan Vandenberg <
jordanva...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> John,
> The Thomas Tamworth you referred to in the last post is the Thomas
> Tamworth who married Elizabeth Denkaring and was father to John Tamworth
> (the subject of the Tamworth quartered arms thread). The links below are in
> reference to this John Tamworth. When you look at the Visitation, this
> Thomas and his son John are on the 2nd page. There are far too many
> generations of Tamworth in the pedigree based on what you found on Sir
> Nicholas who married Joan, and what can be confirmed date wise on the lower
> part of the pedigree.
>
>
> https://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/TAM001_s1
> https://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/content/tamworth-john
>
> Below is also a biography on the John Tamworth you mentioned son of Thomas
> and Elizabeth Denkaring.
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/
> member/tamworth-john-1524-69
>
>
>
>
>

[taf]

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 4:40:54 AM UTC-8, karen sims wrote:
> Just for the record here - Elizabeth "Denkaring" was the daughter of
> Phillipe De Caruges, Doctor of Physick and servant to our sovereign lord
> the king.

Ah!

A set of relevant documents were published in The Genealogist back in the 1870s:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2ss6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA388

Philip was also a Citizen and Draper of London:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-london-middx/vol2/pp16-68

(search page for Caruge)

taf