Sir Leonard Hastings Family Chronology
Brad Verity
Douglas Richardson wrote:
>I think chronology would be useful to examine next. We know that
>Alice Camoys' eldest son, William Hastings, was born about 1431, he
>being age 24 at his father's death in 1455. Alice Camoys' eldest
>daughter, Anne, was contracted to marry Thomas Ferrers on 24 March
>1447/8 [Reference: Hastings MSS, 1:300]. If we assume Anne was
16-18
>years old at the date of this contract which was the normal age for
>women of this station to be married, then it would place Anne's birth
>at about 1430/2.
>Given that Alice Camoys' oldest son was born about 1431, and her
>oldest daughter born about 1430/2, it seems a good bet that Alice
>Camoys married Leonard Hastings in or before 1429. Again
>substracting 16-18 years from 1429, it suggests that Alice Camoys was
>born about 1411/13, well after the date her father Thomas Camoys
would
>have married Elizabeth Mortimer. So, the chronology looks quite good
>that Alice Camoys is Elizabeth Mortimer's daughter.
I have the following from Collins' Peerage:
"Sir Ralph de Hastings by his second Lady, who brought him the manors
of Sutton and Bewick, com. Ebor. was father of five sons and one
daughter, viz. Sir Ralph, Sir Richard, Sir Leonard, who continued the
line, John, Bartholomew, and Maud.
Sir Ralph de Hastings, the eldest son, having engaged in a league
against Henry IV with the magnanimous Owen Glendourdwy, and other
great men, in favour of Edmund Mortimer, Earl of March, the lineal
heir of the crown, was attainted and beheaded, A.D. 1405, without
issue.
Sir Richard de Hastings, second son, obtained a grant of his brother's
forfeited estate, but died in 1437, without issue by his wife
Elizabeth, daughter of Henry, Lord Beaumont, and widow of William,
Lord D'Eincourt, having served in parliament 3 Hen. VI for the county
of York, of which he was sheriff in 1426, and 1434, and also of
Warwickshire and Leicestershire in 1414, 1422, and 1432.
Sir Leonard de Hastings, third son of Sir Ralph, and continuator of
the line, succeeded to the estate upon the death of his brother Sir
Richard, and served the office of Sheriff for the counties of Warwick
and Leicester, A.D. 1454. He departed this life in 1456, leaving by
Alice his wife, daughter of Thomas Lord Camois, four sons and three
daughters, viz. first, Sir William Lord Hastings, his heir; second,
Richard; third, Sir Ralph, of which three afterwards; fourth, Thomas.
Anne, married to Thomas Ferrers, of Tamworth-castle, Esq; Joan, to
John Brokesby, Esq.; and Elizabeth, to Sir John Donne."
I don't have a copy of the previous page, which gives the details on
Leonard Hastings' parents. Do we know who his mother was? She was
the second wife of Leonard's father Sir Ralph - do we have a marriage
year for them, or do we know when Sir Ralph's first wife died? Do we
know when Sir Ralph died? Is there a birth year known for Sir
Leonard?
Leonard's elder brother Sir Ralph was beheaded in 1405, and I'm
guessing he was at least 20 years old since he was involved in the
Glendower rebellion, which would place his birth year at about 1385 or
earlier. Now the Mortimers were right smack in the middle of this
rebellion, so here is a Hastings/Mortimer connection in 1405.
The next brother Sir Richard Hastings seems to have had a successful
public career and certainly made an advantageous marriage with the
widowed Lady D'Eincourt. Do we know when this marriage took place, or
at least when Lord D'Eincourt died? Did Lord and Lady D'Eincourt have
any children? When did Elizabeth, Lady D'Eincourt, die - was it
before or after her second husband Sir Richard Hastings? At what
point would it seem likely that Sir Leonard would inherit the family
estates from his childless brother?
That last question is important because now we come to Sir Leonard
Hastings. We know from the age of his eldest son given in his IPM
that Sir Leonard and his wife Alice were married prior to 1431. Now,
if royal ancestry was a major factor in 15th century marriage
arrangements, what advantage were the Camoys getting from Alice's
marriage to Sir Leonard? If Elizabeth Mortimer was her mother, Alice
was a descendant of Edward III, half-sister of the Eatl of
Northumberland and first cousin to Richard, Duke of York. Why would
she be married to a younger brother of the Hastings family? Yes, Sir
Leonard was heir presumptive to the family estates, but in 1429/30,
was it yet obvious that current family head Sir Richard Hastings would
not likely have any children? I don't see what advantage - 'royal
descent'-wise - this marriage of Alice Camoys to Sir Leonard had for
the remaining Camoys family.
Then we have the children of Sir Leonard Hastings and Alice Camoys.
Their eldest son William was placed in the household of the Duke of
York and became close friends with the Duke's sons, especially the
future Edward IV. A first cousin relationship between Alice and York
would certainly explain why her son was given such an honorable
household placement. But there could be other explanations as well.
Roger, Lord Camoys - a verified first cousin of the Duke of York -
might have helped make the arrangement for his sister's son, even
though the boy was not a blood relative of York. Or simply the fact
that the Hastings family had shown past support to York's Mortimer
relations and were a respectable northern county gentry family could
have been the deciding factor.
And what of the marriages of Sir Leonard and Alice's children? If
'royal blood' was a major factor in marriage alliances, and if Alice
was the daughter of Elizabeth Mortimer, then we should see
distinguished matches for these Hastings. They would be the nephews
and nieces of the Earl of Northumberland, cousins to the Duke of York,
and descendants of Edward III.
The elder two boys made good matches - William to Katherine Neville,
widowed Lady Harington and sister of Warwick the Kingmaker; and second
son Richard Hastings to the widowed heiress of Lord Welles. But
William, Lord Hasting's marriage to Katharine Neville in 1461 was
shown by Rosie Bevan to have been a result of his loyal service and
friendship to new King Edward IV. And if Richard Hastings marriage to
Joan Welles occurred after 1461, it was likely a result of his brother
William's influence.
The third son Sir Ralph Hastings had seven daughters and coheirs, but
Collins Peerage does not name his wife. However, since the Apr. 1464
Hastings/Grey betrothal contract that Douglas posted shows that Ralph
did not have any daughters at that date, I'm assuming his marriage
took place after 1461 and the rise to political power and influence of
his elder brother William, which would overshadow any 'royal descent'
factor. The fourth and youngest son of Sir Leonard and Alice - Thomas
- I have no further information on.
As for the three daughters, all of their marriages most likely took
place before 1461 and their brother William's rise to political
prominence - the marriage of the eldest Anne, contracted in Mar.
1447/8, most certainly did. It is then important to look at who their
husbands were - since 'royal descent' might have been the leading
factor in these arrangements.
Anne's husband Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Castle I'm assuming is a
descendant of Edward I through either the Ferrers of Groby or Ferrers
of Chartley families - perhaps someone can verify this. Not a
particularly distinguished match for a descendant of Edward III and
kinswoman of the Duke of York, but Thomas Ferrers had the manor and
castle of Tamworth, as well as royal blood, so one can argue the
Hastings were not marrying their eldest daughter below her station.
But what of the other two daughters, Joan and Elizabeth? Their
husbands were John Brokesby, Esq. and Sir John Donne - both obscure
gentlemen of no evident royal descent. If royal blood was a leading
factor in marriage arrangements, and if Alice Camoys Hastings brought
a descent from Edward III to her children, how can we explain the
marriages of her two younger daughters? What prestige and royal blood
did Brokesby and Sir John Donne bring to the Hastings family?
The question of Alice Camoys' mother gets curiouser and curiouser.
Chronology does seem to support her being the daughter of Elizabeth
Mortimer, but the 'royal descent' factor in her own marriage and in
the pre-1461 marriages of her children, don't support her being a
descendant of Edward III and first cousin to the Duke of York.
Best regards, ---------Brad Verity
Tim Powys-Lybbe
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
> Dear Group,
<snip of details from Collins' Peerage>
> I don't have a copy of the previous page, which gives the details on
> Leonard Hastings' parents. Do we know who his mother was? She was
> the second wife of Leonard's father Sir Ralph - do we have a marriage
> year for them, or do we know when Sir Ralph's first wife died? Do we
> know when Sir Ralph died? Is there a birth year known for Sir
> Leonard?
I have "Hastings of Hastings" by R J Beevor, an account of the barons of
Hastings, cr. 1461 and the other baronies they married into; that is,
rather scanty on William Hastings' own Hastings ancestry. Anyhow he
says, p. 3, that Sir Ralph was "twice married, 1stly to Isabel, daughter
of Sir Robert de Sadyngton and, 2ndly, to Maud, daughter and co-heir of
Sir Robert de Sutton of Sutton in Holderness." He adds that Leonard was
the third son by the 2nd marriage, succeeding after the death of his
brothers. No dates are given for any of this.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Rosie Bevan
Hastings d.1346 and Margaret de Herle. Margaret brought a moiety of the
barony of Bolebec to the Hastings family on the death of her brother Robert
de Herle (IPM 38 Edw III). She was the sister and heir in her issue of Sir
Robert de Herle (d.1364), of Drakenage and Burton Hastings, Warks. Both were
children of Sir William de Herle (d.1347), of Caldecote, Warks. Ralph
Hastings was retainer of Henry Duke of Lancaster at the wages of forty marks
per annum, to be paid out of the manor of Pickering. In 1372 he was joined
in commission with Thomas Hatfield, Bishop of Durham, Gilbert de Umfraville,
Earl of Angus on the affairs of the Scottish borders. In 1376 he was
employed with the Earl of Warwick on a similar service. In 1377 and again in
1380 he was Sheriff of Yorkshire and governor of York Castle. He married
first Isabel de Sadyngton and presumably had a daughter Margaret d. 1406 who
carried Isabel's inheritance of Nosely, Leics into the Heron family.
Margaret was unmarried when he made his will which is a bit odd considering
she would be at least two years older than Richard Hastings her half brother
then aged about 15 (unless Ralph had two daughters named Margaret). He
married secondly Matilda da. and coheir of Sir Thomas Sutton of Sutton in
Holderness [Surtees Soc. Pubn, v 4].
His will was made at Slingsby on 21 Sept 1397. He mentions his dead father
Ralph, dead mother Margaret, dead wife Isabella de Sadyngton and her father
Robert de Sadyngton. He mentions as living, Matilda his wife, his 'filio meo
seniori' (but not by name), and son Bartholomew. Unfortunately there is no
mention of Leonard. Probate was 25 Feb 1397.[Surtees Soc Pubn, v.4 p.]
IPM RALPH HAYSTINGS, Kt 1401
540 Writs ordering the inquisition below to be sent into chancery 20 and 22
June 1401
Endorsed The escheator received the writs at Richmond on 2 July and
despatched them with the inquisition the following day.
Another writ ordering release of the lands 15 Oct 1401
York ex officio Slingsby 23 June.
Ralph de Hastynges, kt of Slingsby held in his demesne as of fee of Thomas
son and heir of Thomas duke of Norfolk, of his manor of Thirsk by knight
service, the castle and manor of Slingsby with its members in Slingsby,
Coulton, and Howthorpe. The castle and manor of Slingsby are worth 16 L
annually, payable by equal parts at Martinmas and Whitsun, Coulton 40 s and
Howthorpe 8L payable at the same terms.
He died on 27 Oct 1397. Richard de Hastynges, kt, his son and heir, will be
20 years of age on 24 Aug next.
C137/29, no78
E149/76, no.5
In the of IPM of Constance wife of Peter de Mauley the sixth (writ 21 June
1401) is this the following passage.
"She held in dower, of the king in chief by knight service by the assignment
of Thomas de Percy, earl of Worcester, guardian of the lands and heir of
Peter de Mauley, son of Peter son of Peter VI, her husband."
" Bransholme, the castle and manor, Sutton on Hull, the manor and the six
advowsons of the chantries of 6 chaplains celebrating in the the chapel of
Sutton in Holderness, by virtue of a grant by Richard Ravenser, Robert
Lorimer and Thomas de Beverley to Thomas de Sutton, kt, and Agnes his wife,
and the heirs male of their bodies, with remainder in tail male to Peter de
Mauley and Constance his wife, and Peter de Mauley his son and Margery his
wife, with reversion to the right heirs of Thomas de Sutton. Thomas and
Agnes died without heirs male of their bodies. Peter and Margery had issue
Peter to whom the manor and advowsons should descend."
Constance was not mother of Piers VI' son and heir, Piers VII. She married
secondly sir John Godard.
According to CP VIII ; pp567-569, Constance was da. and coheir of Sir Thomas
Sutton and her younger sisters were Agnes and Margery. Margery was married
to Piers de Mauley VII c. 1371 (and so her eldest sister was also
confusingly her step mother in law). It appears that Margary married
secondly William de Aldburgh and they both died in 1391. This poses
something of a problem as to who the Maud de Sutton who married Ralph de
Hastings was, if we are to believe she was of Sutton in Holderness.
The pedigree of Sutton of Holderness in the Visitations of the North,
(Surtees v. 133) taken from a register in the Abbey of Meux contradicts the
above saying that the three daughters of 'Seyrus Lord Sutton' were Maud
married to Sir William Percy, Marie married to Sir John Melton and Custance
married to Sir Peter Demalolac (Piers de Mauley).
CP VIII : p570 states that in the IPM of Piers de Mauley VIII (Ch Inq p. m.
3 Hen V no 54) who died 1415 without issue, the Sutton estate reverted to
Agnes, da and coh. of Sir Thomas Sutton, wife of Sir Edmund Hastings; Sir
John Godard son of Constance Sutton, Constance wife of Sir John Bigod; and
Elizabeth wife of George Salvain. The latter two ladies were daughters of
Margery Sutton.
Tim's source stated that Maud was da. of Sir Robert de Sutton of Holderness
but whether Maud was a Holderness Sutton is questionable. She doesn't seem
to have been an heiress. With the mention of Sir Edmund Hastings, I wonder
if this is a case of mistaken identity here and she is in fact a Dudley
Sutton. Leonard and Bartholomew are very distinctive names and not used
previously in the Dudley Sutton nor Hastings family that I'm aware.
I'm afraid that my resources are exhausted and cannot take the quest
further.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Sir Leonard Hastings Family Chronology
> In message <8ed1b63.01102...@posting.google.com>
> bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
>
> > Dear Group,
>
> <snip of details from Collins' Peerage>
>
> > I don't have a copy of the previous page, which gives the details on
> > Leonard Hastings' parents. Do we know who his mother was? She was
> > the second wife of Leonard's father Sir Ralph - do we have a marriage
> > year for them, or do we know when Sir Ralph's first wife died? Do we
> > know when Sir Ralph died? Is there a birth year known for Sir
> > Leonard?
>
RMe...@aol.com
Earls of Pembroke?
Loyaulte Me Lie,
Rania
Mardi Carter
Holderness"
p. 22: (following an account of the descent of the manor of Bewick
through the Melsa/Meaux family) The manor [Bewick] thus passed by
marriage with Alice, sister and heir of Sir John Meaux, to Ralph
Hastings. Glover, in his Collectanea [Hearlds Coll. p 12],
corroborates this; he says --"Sir Ralph Hastings, in the year 1377
enjoyed the chief manor and lordship of Bewick and Sutton, in
Holderness, which were the lands of Sir John de Meaux, the last of
that name." Sir William Dugdale, in his account of the pedigree of
Hastings, states that - Sir Ralph Hastings, who was high sheriff of
Yorkshire, and governor of the castle of York, a.d. 1377, married, -
first, Isabel, daughter and heir of Sir Robert de Sadington, in
Leicestershire, and for his second wife, Maud, daughter and co-heir of
Sir Robert de Sutton, of Sutton, in Holderness, and she brought him
the manors of Sutton and Bewyke; but how she came to be possessed of
the manor of Bewick does not appear. Tha manor continued in the
possession of the family of Hastings for several generations.
Following this statement is a chart pedigree showing Ralph de
Hastings m. Alice, sole sister and heir of the last John de Meaux by
whom he had Ralph, Richard and Sir Leonard.
p. 327 The Lands of the Archbishop. As early as the reign of Edw. I.
a writ of Quo Warranto was issued to enquire by what right John de
Melsa claimed to have wayf, the assize of bread and ale, &c and
quitance from suit in the county court without permission, and he
answers, &c. that he claimed these rights, &c. in Sutton, in
Holderness, as holding it of the archbishop of York (Plac. Q.W. Ed. I.
p 196). The marriage of Ralph Hastings, with Alice, daughter of the
last Sir John de Meaux, no doubt carried these lands held of the
archbishop as over-lord into that family, for by an inquisition, held
1 Rich. III. Wm. Hastings, knt. held the manor of Sutton, Stoneferry
and Drypool; and by another inquisition, held at the castle of York,
on Friday in Easter week, 8 H. IV. it appears that Wm. Gower, and Wm.
Gibson, clerks and John Hastings de Brunby, and Robert Thornton, Esq.
were seized (in Dominico suo) as of fee, of 21 mess. 16 cott. and 6
bovates of arable 29 1/2 acres of meadow, and 30s rental in vill. de
Sutton, and that they granted the above lands to Sir Ralph Hastings,
knt. father of the above Ralph on whose death they descended to Ralph,
&c. which were held of the archbishop of York, as of his manor of
Beverley, by the service of a pepper corn. This Ralph died and was
succeeded by his brother Richard, aged 24 years (Inq & Esch. B.C.
Library), aged 24 years. How long it remained in this family does not
appear. On 27 H. Viii. the king grants the manor of Sutton and
Stoneferrie, to Marmaduke Constable, knt. (serviento suo) in tale
male, &c. which had relapsed into the king's hands, by the attaint of
Thomas, Cardinal Wolsey, archbishop of York upon the statute of 16
Richard II.
Starting at p 323 are a number of abstracted contemporary documents,
but I find no Sir Robert de Sutton anywhere.
I have not seen mention of a marriage between Ralph de Hastings and
Alice de Melsa (Meaux) in any other source. I am curious as to what
the rest of you make of this.
cbe...@paradise.net.nz (Rosie Bevan) wrote in message news:<0cf501c15dd3$7b9aa6e0$04794fcb@cbevan>...
Mardi Carter
information as Poulson: 1353 - John Meaux died childless, leaving a
sister Alice, married to Ralph de Hastings.