C.P. Addition: Identity of Lleucu, wife of Geoffrey de Camville

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Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 3, 2005, 9:21:42 PM1/3/05
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Dear Newsgroup ~

William de Brewes (or Breuse) IV and his wife, Maud de Clare, are often
assigned a daughter, Lleucu, wife of Geoffrey de Camville (died 1219),
of Llanstephan Castle, Carmarthenshire. This affliation is made due to
the fact that Lleucu de Camville is known to have been a granddaughter
of William de Brewes IV's father, William de Brewes III, who granted
her property in Ireland in marriage (see Shirley, Royal and Other Hist.
Letters Ill. of the Reign of Henry III 1 (1862): 60-61 [letter
discussing lands in Ireland claimed by Lleucu as her maritagium]; cf.
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 3).

William de Brewes III and his wife, Maud de Saint Valéry, had a large
family of children, many of whom married and raised families. Lleucu
de Camville could conceivably be the child of any one of these couples.
Recent research has located evidence which indicates Lleucu was the
daughter of Gruffydd ap Rhys (died 1201), Prince of South Wales, by his
wife, Maud (died 1210), daughter of William de Brewes III (see Jones,
Brut y Tywysogyon (Board of Celtic Studies 6) (1941): 154; Dict. of
Welsh Biog.(1959): 318-319 (biog. of Gruffydd ap Rhys); Bartrum Welsh
Gens. 300-1400 (1980) [Rhys ap Tewdwr 6]). Specifically, in the
period, 1293/1308, Lleucu's grandson, Geoffrey de Camville, 1st Lord
Camville, and his son, William, wrote the King and Council regarding
the lands in Cardigan of Owain ap Gruffydd, "whose heirs they were"
(see Rees Cal. of Ancient Petitions Rel. Wales (Board of Celtic
Studies, Hist. & Law Ser. 28) (1975): 150-151). Owain ap Gruffydd of
Cardiganshire was the eldest son of Gruffydd ap Rhys and Maud de Brewes
(see Dict. of Welsh Biog.(1959): 689-690 (biog. of Owain ap
Gruffydd). At the date of the Camville letter, the lands of Owain ap
Gruffydd had been permanently forfeited by his male heirs for rebellion
against King Edward I of England.

For further particulars regarding the Camville and Brewes families,
please see my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for
publication in June 2005.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the 17th Century
colonial American immigrants who are descended from Geoffrey de
Camville and his wife, Lleucu:

1. Henry Corbin.

2. Muriel Gurdon.

3. Anthony Savage.

4. Amy Willis.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net

the...@aol.com

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Jan 3, 2005, 10:23:39 PM1/3/05
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Monday, 3 January, 2005


Dear Douglas,

Yet another interesting find - many thanks, yet again. I wonder
if you have a chance to Leucha the Mohaut family, perhaps that missing
connection (wife of ) might yet be resolved.

Re: the descents from Geoffrey de Camville and his wife Lleucu,
following is a pedigree giving the descent from same to the emigrant
Jane Lowe and her family. A few more emigres to add to your list.....

Cheers,

John


1 Geoffrey de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1219[1]
Father: William de Camville
Mother: Aubree Marmion (->1232)

of Clifton, co. Stafford[1]

Spouse: Leuca[1]
Death: 1236[1]

Children: William (-1260)

Other Spouses NN


1.1 William de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1260[1]

of Clifton Campville, co. Stafford, Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen,
Fedamore, co. Limerick and Caher, co. Tipperary[1]
2nd son
the lands of Clifton , disputed with half-brother Richard, adjudged to
him; received quitclaim of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen from
grandmother
Aubree, 1228[1]

Spouse: Lucy[1]
Death: aft 14 Aug 1284[1]

Children: Geoffrey (-<1308)


1.1.1 Geoffrey de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Sep 1308[1]
Occ: Lord Camville

of Clifton Campville, co. Stafford & c.
summoned to Parliament from 24 June 1295 to 3 Nov 1306 by writs
directed
'Galfrido de Camvilla', whereby held to have become Lord Camville[1]

had custody of Blagdon, Somerset (restored to stepson William Martin on
his death, 1308(Sanders, p. 15)[2]

Spouse: Maud de Brian
Birth: 25 Dec 1242[1]
Death: bef 1280[1]
Father: Guy de Brian
Mother: Eve de Tracy

Children: William (<1268-<1338)


1.1.1.1 William de Camville
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 26 Oct 1268[1]
Death: bef 27 Jul 1338[1]
Occ: Lord Camville

of Clifton Campville, co. Stafford, Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen,
Fedamore, co. Limerick and Caher, co. Tipperary
2nd Lord Camville
summoned to Parliament from 4 Mar 1308/09 to 16 Jun 1311[1]

Children: Maud (->1338)


1.1.1.1.1 Maud de Camville[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 27 Jul 1338[1]

one of 5 daughters and coheiresses[1]

Spouse: Richard de Vernon
Death: bef 3 Jun 1323[1]
Father: Sir Richard de Vernon (->1323)

Children: Sir William (-<1378)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William de Vernon
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 29 Sep 1378[4]

of Haddon and Harleston, co. Derby
succeeded his grandfather[4], noted also in CP Vol III (Camville),
pp. 4-5[1]

Spouse: Margaret de Stopford[4]
Father: Robert de Stopford

Children: Sir Richard (-1376)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Richard de Vernon
----------------------------------------
Death: 1376[5]

of Haddon and Harleston, co. Derbys.[4]

Spouse: Juliana de Pembrugge[4]
Birth: ca 1348[5]
Death: bef May 1409[5]
Father: Roger de Pembrugge (-<1364)
Mother: Juliana

Children: Sir Richard (ca1367-ca1400)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Richard Vernon
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1367[5]
Death: ca 1400[4]

of Haddon and Harleston, co. Derbys.

Spouse: Joan Griffith
Birth: bef 1372[6]
Father: Sir Rhys ap Griffith (-1380)
Mother: Elizabeth de Stackpole (-<1377)

Children: Sir Richard (ca1394-<1451)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Richard Vernon
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1394[4]
Death: bef 23 Aug 1451[5]

of Ayleston, co. Leics., and Tong, co. Salop
Speaker of the Parliament (Leicester) 1425/26
Sheriff of Derby 1425; M.P. for Derbyshire[4]

Spouse: Benedicta Ludlowe
Father: Sir John Ludlowe

Children: Agnes


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Agnes Vernon
----------------------------------------
Burial: Ashbourne, co. Derbys.[7]

Spouse: John Cokayne
Birth: ca 1422[7]
Death: ca 1505[4],[7]
Father: Sir John Cokayne (-1438)
Mother: Isabel Shirley (->1459)

Children: Thomas (-1488)
Roger
Beatrice


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Thomas Cokayne
----------------------------------------
Death: 1488, slain at Pooley Park, co. Derbys. (d.v.p.)[7]

of Ashbourne and Pooley, co. Derby
heir apparent of his father

Spouse: Agnes Barlow
Father: Robert Barlow
Mother: Margaret Delves

Children: Sir Thomas (ca1479->1537)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Thomas Cokayne
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1479[7]
Death: aft 4 Apr 1537[4],[7]
Burial: St. Oswald's, Ashbourne, co. Derby

knight, of Ashbourne, co. Derby
fought at Battle of Tournai, 1513[4]

Spouse: Barbara FitzHerbert
Father: John FitzHerbert
Mother: Margaret Babington

Children: Jane


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Jane Cokayne[4]
----------------------------------------

'...Jane, elder daughter of Sir Thomas Cokayne of Ashbourn.'
(Cox., p. 252)[8]

Spouse: Vincent Lowe
Death: ca 1556[4]
Father: Humphrey Lowe (->1516)
Mother: Margaret Cokayne

Children: Jasper (-1582)
Barbara


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Jasper Lowe
----------------------------------------
Death: 1582[4]

of Park-Hall and Denby, co. Derby[4]

[his holdings in Denby evidently from his wife's maritagium or
inheritance from her mother]

noted by Cox as having acquired Park-Hall 'about the beginning of
Henry VIII's reign' and then being settled on his younger son
(p. 251)[8]

Spouse: Dorothy Sacheverell[4]
Father: William Sacheverell (-1558)
Mother: Mary Lowe

Children: Patrick (ca1561->1617)
Jasper
Nicholas
Robert
Emma
Dorothy
Mary


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Patrick Lowe
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1561[4],[8]
Death: aft 17 Oct 1617[4],[9]

Esq., of Denby, co. Derby[10]

'Patrick Lowe of Denby, Derbyshire', will dated 17 Oct 1617
[PRO PCC PROB 11/130[9] ]

Spouse: Jane Harpur
Father: Sir John Harpur (ca1546-1622)
Mother: Isabella Pierrepont

Children: Vincent (1594->1640)
Isabel


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Vincent Lowe
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1594[10]
Death: aft 1640[10]

Esq., of Denby, co. Derby[10]

Spouse: Anne Cavendish
Father: Henry Cavendish (1550-1616)
Mother: NN

Children: Grace (1614-)
John (1616-1659)
Anne (1618-)
Beth (1626-)
Catherine (1627-)
Henry (1628-)
Dorothy (1630-)
Vincent (1632-)
Jane (1633-1700)
Nicholas (1639-)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1a Jane Lowe*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 14 Oct 1633, Denby, co. Derby[4]
Death: 19 Jan 1700, Middlesex, England[10]
Burial: St. Giles-in-the-Field church, Middlesex
Occ: Lady Baltimore

she m. 1stly Henry Sewall,
2ndly (as 2nd wife) Charles Calvert, Lord
Baltimore[10];[4];[11].

Raised grandson Notley Rozer after death of his father in 1681[12](son
Nicholas Sewall was guardian of Notley Rozer per indenture of
1682[13])

d. intestate, 19 Jan 1700/01 [Barnes, p.2[14] ]

Spouse: Henry Sewall
Birth: aft 1622[4]
Death: bef 17 Apr 1665[4]
Father: Richard Sewall (-<1638)
Mother: Mary Dugdale (1597-ca1648)
Marr: bef 1650, England[15]

Children: Anne (ca1651-1693)
Elizabeth (<1651-<1710)
Nicholas (ca1655-1737)
Mary (1658-1693)
Jane

Other Spouses Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Baltimore


1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England
Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
3. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
4. Robert W. Barnes, "British Roots of Maryland Families," Baltimore:
Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1999.
5. Richard Ledyard, "Pembrugge/Vernon," Dec 9, 2000,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, additional notes and comments,
12/10/2000 by Todd A. Farmerie.
6. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Tuberville heirs," July 31, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
7. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003,
email royala...@msn.com.
8. "The Churches of Derbyshire," Charles Cox, pp. 248-254 provided by
Rosie Bevan.
9. "Public Record Office Archives," : wills proved in the Prerogative
Court of Canterbury, http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/
10. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists"
Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999,
(2nd edition, 1999).
11. "Charles Calvert; article in American National Biography," David W.
Jordan (J. Garraty, M. Carnes, gen editors), Oxford Univ. Press,
1999, Vol. 4, pp. 242-244.
12. Nettie Leitch Major, "Rozer - Young - Carroll - Brent: Colonial
Marylanders "Lost" by the Formation of the District of Columbia,"
Maryland Genealogical Society Bulletin, Vol. 19, No. 4, Fall, 1978
[as corrected, Winter 1979 -Vol. 20, No. 1, p. 93], pp. 293 et seq.
13. Effie Gwynn Bowie, "Across the Years in Prince George's County,"
Richmond: Garrett and Massie, Inc., 1916.
14. "Robert Barnes," "JANE LOWE SEWALL CALVERT: GOVERNOR'S LADY AND
LAND BARONESS ", The Archivist's Bulldog, vol. 13, No. 12
(June 28, 1999) p. 2, The Archivist's Bulldog - Newsletter of the
Maryland State Archives,

http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/refserv/bulldog/bull99/bull13-12/html/bull13-12.html#sewall
15. Debbie Shields, "Shields Genealogy,"
www.debbieshields.com/genealogy/tree12.html
16. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.


Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< regrettable snip of a useful post >>>>>>>>>
>

roger_...@ksg04.harvard.edu

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Jan 7, 2005, 1:41:28 PM1/7/05
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Yes, I also show the immigrant, Robert Abell, as a descendant through
William Vernon, son of Richard Vernon and Benedicta de Ludlowe.......

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 7, 2005, 3:29:00 PM1/7/05
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Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post.

The descent you have set forth for Jane (Lowe) Sewell is based on the
premise that Maud de Camville, wife of Sir Richard de Vernon, was the
mother of Richard's son and heir, William de Vernon. However, my
research indicates that Maud's entire inheritance went to her daughter,
Isabel de Vernon, wife of Sir Richard de Stafford, to the complete
exclusion of Isabel's brother, William de Vernon. As such, it seems
clear that Maud de Camville was the mother only of Isabel de Vernon,
and not of William de Vernon.

For further evidence that this is correct, I find that the tomb of
Isabel de Vernon's descendant, Sir John Stanley (died 1508), displays
various Stanley family quarterings, including Arderne impaling
Stafford, Pype, and Camville, but not Vernon [Reference: Earwaker,
East Cheshire 1 (1877): 277-278]. This heraldic evidence suggests
that Isabel de Vernon, wife of Sir Richard de Stafford, was heiress of
her mother, Maud de Camville, but not of her father.

This information regarding Isabel de Vernon's parentage would be
another new addition to Complete Peerage, albeit indirectly. I
understand Isabel de Vernon's husband, Sir Richard de Stafford, was
summoned to Parliament from 1370, yet for some reason he was not
included in Complete Peerage.

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jan 8, 2005, 10:07:38 AM1/8/05
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Dear Douglas,

you have voiced a valid concern about the descent of the Vernons from
Maud de Camville, given the subsequent devolution of her inheritance.
However, a case can be made to support William de Vernon's maternity.
Firstly, in the Feodary of Tutbury, as reproduced in John Pym Yeatman's
Feudal History of the County of Derby vol.1 section 2, on page 495 we
find "Rich Vernon and Magister Edmund Stafford hold the manors of
Bromcote, Grendon, Shepeye, and Basturley [all in Leics.], for 3 fees."
Edmund Stafford, Bishop of Exeter (1344-1419) was the surviving
legitimate son and heir of Sir Richard Stafford, and Shepeye and
Grendon, at least, were certainly Camville lands; this would imply a
shared Camville descent. In the intricate (but not entirely accurate)
pedigree at page 982* of Nichols's Leicester vol.3 part 2 we have Sir
Richard de Stafford "of Clifton in part" and his son Bishop Edmund
"lord of Clifton by exchange with Richard Vernon and guardians". This
may give a clue- Shaw's Staffordshire vol.1 page 404 gives as an
evidence for the pedigree a "deed of bp.Edm.Staff.cop. in Huntb[ach]
No.2", which evidently dates from 1402-3 and involves Richard de
Vernon, then a minor, son of the late Richard de Vernon of Harleston kt
and his wife Joanna, then living. (If anybody can locate the text of
this deed, it should settle the matter.) Although Richard de Vernon
(dead 1323) was betrothed while a minor to Eleanor, daughter of Giles
de Fenes, she would not appear to be a candidate for William's mother,
as she was dead by 1302 (see, for instance, VCH Bucks, sub Pitchcott)
and William is described as being 10 years old at his father's
inquisition in 1323 (CIPM Edw.II, vi.238). Richard was married to Maud
by 1313, as there is an enfeoffment of "Richard son of Richard de
Vernon and Maud his wife" dated Sunday after the Purification, 6 Edw.II
(HMC Rutland, iv.28).
As for the heraldry, it is significant that the arms of Pype are
mentioned, as although the manor of Pipe was held by the Staffords and
Stanleys, there was no blood succession. The new ODNB describes how
Richard, Lord Stafford of Clifton acquired this manor at the expense of
the blood heir, his mother Margaret (nee Bassett) having remarried to
Sir Thomas Pipe. Stafford's second wife Maud Stafford also brought
claims to the Pipe lands; but again, she was not the mother of his
posterity. So it seems that the shields that Earwaker records represent
the acquisition of lands, by whatever means, by the ancestors of John
Stanley (query whether he was a knight, although his father -also John-
certainly was one). Clifton and other Camville lands (in part?) may
have been a marriage portion, later enhanced by exchange; the arms of
Camville also appear among those of other heiresses on the memorial
brass to Sir William Vernon (d.1467) at Tong, Shropshire, and on all
later such Vernon heraldry.

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jan 8, 2005, 11:53:11 AM1/8/05
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Dear John,

just one small correction to the Vernon descent, and that is the
identification of William de Vernon's wife as Margaret de Stopford.
Despite her continuous presence in Burke's etc, she appears to result
from confusion when an earlier antiquary was (understandably) unaware
that Stopford is the same name -formerly, anyway- as Stockport, and she
is the same woman who appears earlier in the Vernon line. (This was
touched on in the list in Feb 1999.) There is minimal evidence of
William (who died much earlier than 1378, he was dead by 1346- see VCH
Bucks sub Pitchcott) and I know nothing that mentions him with his
wife, but there is a possibility that she is named in connection with
an obscure Cumbrian manor- Rockcliff(e) north of Carlisle. A paper on
that place in the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and
Archaeological Society Transactions, New Series vol.24, pp.57-65 quotes
a final concord of January 1347/8 that mentions the widow of Sir
Richard de Vernon (William's grandfather) as having a third of the
manor in dower; and a third of the remainder was held by "John de
Molyneux, chivaler, and Clementia, his wife", also in dower. The author
(THB Graham) speculates that Clementia was probably the widow of the
successor of Richard, son of Richard de Vernon- ie, William. Maud
Camville, widow of the younger Richard, was also then alive but claimed
dower in other manors. The wife and widow of the elder Richard was
Isabella, daughter of Michael de Hartcla (Harclay) and sister of the
ill-fated Andrew Harclay who was briefly earl of Carlisle, before being
executed in 1322/3. This has proofs in the cited VCH Bucks and,
especially, the mammoth article "Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de
Veteripont, le Franceys and de Vernon" by rev FW Ragg in the
aforementioned CWAAS Transactions- NS vol.12 (1912) with corrections in
NS vol.16 pp.167-8. This assiduously and objectively works through the
le Franceys/de Vernon succession and adds much to the history of the
Vernons' northern lands. The new ODNB adds that Sir Michael de
Harclay's wife was "Joan, daughter of William Fitzjohn, a Yorkshire
landowner".
Hope this is all useful and can lead to further discoveries- thanks for
the good work so far- Matthew

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 8, 2005, 3:04:27 PM1/8/05
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Dear Sir ~

Thank you for your good post. The information you posted was very
helpful.

The records you present certainly give an explanation as to how the
Camville inheritance went to the Stafford family, albeit by a possible
exchange of lands between the Vernon and Stafford families. They do
not immediately explain why the Stanley family (the successors of the
Stafford family) included the Camville arms among their armorial
quarterings. I have seen one instance of a family who quartered the
arms of another family from whom they inherited the lands, but which
they were not directly descended. If so, I suppose it is possible for
someone to quarter the arms of a family whose lands they inherited, but
which they were not technically the heirs. This would be a bit
unusual, to say the least. A more likely explanation is that the
Stanley family quartered the Camville arms in error. When convenient,
can you provide the reference which shows the Camville arms being
included in the memorial brass to Sir William Vernon (d.1467) at Tong,
Shropshire? This would be good evidence that Maud de Camville was
truly the ancestress of the Vernon family.

I searched the A2A Catalogue just now for the exchange deed you
mentioned involving Bishop Edmund de Stafford and Richard de Vernon. I
didn't find the deed in question, but my search was somewhat cursory.
I did find one deed involving Bishop Stafford which is presented below.
As you can see, Bishop Stafford was serving as a trustee for his
nephew, Sir Thomas de Arderne, in this record.

Birmingham City Archives: Elford Hall Collection, MS 3878/31.

Grant dated 10 July 1385 from Thomas Dardene, knt., to Master Edmund de
Stafford, lord of Clyfton, Sir Henry de Tymmore, Canon of the Cathedral
Church of Lichfield, Lady Elizabeth of Berkeley of the manor of
Elleford, with lands in Etheles, Lichefeld, Kynges - bromeley, Alrewas,
together with the advowson of the Church of Elleford. co. Staff. Seal,
wax, red, circ., device, helmet and shield, legend.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jan 8, 2005, 4:22:18 PM1/8/05
to
Dear Douglas,

apologies for neglecting to sign my post, but thank you for your
interest in it. There are several books and guidebooks about the church
at Tong, including the History of Tong, Salop by George Griffiths (2nd
edn 1894) and the History of Tong Church,College and Castle by GH Boden
(2nd rev.edn c.1920) which might contain descriptions of the brass. I
have a photocopy of a drawing of the brass that was in such a guidebook
in the Society of Genealogists in London; unfortunately though I didn't
record its title (I have visited and photographed the tomb however and
can confirm that it is an accurate depiction). Perhaps easier to find,
the Shropshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Transactions,
1st Series vol 5 has an article 'Inscriptions on Tombs in the Parish
Churches of Tong and Donington' with the brass in question discussed on
p327. The Pype arms appear here too, Sir William's wife being another
heiress of the family.
Interestingly, the tomb of Sir John Stanley senior (d.1474 or 1476) at
Elford in Staffordshire can be seen on Rose St Leger-May's website at:
www.genealogy.com/users/s/t/l/Rosemary-St-legermay-Surrey/PHOTO/0016photo.html
and his quarterings include Vernon itself, which can only be a mistake
(perhaps though dating to Victorian restoration of the church). If the
Pype and Camville arms are on the younger Stanley's tomb by an
unconventional heraldic system there is a kind of logic too- they
represent the status and accumulated lands effectively, even if we
eventually decide they shouldn't be there. (In later times a family
might inherit lands by non-blood succesion and promptly take both the
name and arms of the extinct line.)
Best wishes, Matthew Connolly

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jan 8, 2005, 4:32:07 PM1/8/05
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Actually I have just remembered thet the elder Sir John Stanley married
a Vernon, and the shields on his tomb show Stanley impaling the arms of
his wives. Sorry about that.

Todd A. Farmerie

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Jan 8, 2005, 6:18:11 PM1/8/05
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Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com wrote:
> Dear Sir ~
>
> Thank you for your good post. The information you posted was very
> helpful.
>
> The records you present certainly give an explanation as to how the
> Camville inheritance went to the Stafford family, albeit by a possible
> exchange of lands between the Vernon and Stafford families. They do
> not immediately explain why the Stanley family (the successors of the
> Stafford family) included the Camville arms among their armorial
> quarterings. I have seen one instance of a family who quartered the
> arms of another family from whom they inherited the lands, but which
> they were not directly descended. If so, I suppose it is possible for
> someone to quarter the arms of a family whose lands they inherited, but
> which they were not technically the heirs. This would be a bit
> unusual, to say the least.

The Chudleghs of Devon did this, for example, with the Nonant
arms, in spite of the lack of genealogical descent.

taf

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 8, 2005, 11:47:04 PM1/8/05
to
Dear Matthew ~

This evening I was able to check the two books on Tong, Shropshire
which you mentioned in your last post. Both books contain descriptions
of the various Vernon family tombs in the Tong church, including the
coats of arms found at the tombs. The books confirm that several of
the Vernon tombs include the Camville arms (three lions passant). On
the basis of this evidence, it would appear that the Vernon family of
Tong were indeed descendants and heirs of the Camville family. I
appreciate you referring me to these books.

Elsewhere, I find the book, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307), by
Brault, 2 (1997): 90 indicates that Sir William de Camville, father of
Maud (de Camville) de Vernon, bore these arms: Azure, three lions
passant argent, a label gules.

I'm curious to know your interest in the Vernon family. Are you a
descendant of this family?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net

.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

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Jan 9, 2005, 1:37:10 AM1/9/05
to
In message of 8 Jan, "Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com"
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:

> Dear Sir ~
>
> Thank you for your good post. The information you posted was very
> helpful.
>
> The records you present certainly give an explanation as to how the
> Camville inheritance went to the Stafford family, albeit by a possible
> exchange of lands between the Vernon and Stafford families. They do
> not immediately explain why the Stanley family (the successors of the
> Stafford family) included the Camville arms among their armorial
> quarterings. I have seen one instance of a family who quartered the
> arms of another family from whom they inherited the lands, but which
> they were not directly descended. If so, I suppose it is possible for
> someone to quarter the arms of a family whose lands they inherited,
> but which they were not technically the heirs. This would be a bit
> unusual, to say the least. A more likely explanation is that the
> Stanley family quartered the Camville arms in error.

The Nevilles used to (they may still, I do not know) quarter both the
arms of Brittany and those of Clavering (aka FitzRoger) and in neither
case were the Nevilles descended from heiresses of those families.
There are other errors of quartering in other families and arguments
from quarters require solid underpinning by genealogical evidence, not
the other way round.

(For Clavering, see Fox-Davies' Armorial Familes, 7th Edn, Vol II, p.
1643 for Rice and p. 1897 for Talbot.)

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Jan 9, 2005, 8:16:57 AM1/9/05
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is a revised list of the 17th Century colonial American


immigrants who are descended from Geoffrey de Camville and his wife,

Lleucu, daughter of Gruffydd ap Rhys, Prince of South Wales.

1. Robert Abell.

2. Henry Corbin (two descents).

3. Muriel Gurdon.

4. Henry, Jane, and Nicholas Lowe.

5. Anthony Savage.

6. Amy Willis.

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

unread,
Jan 9, 2005, 4:28:56 PM1/9/05
to
Dear Douglas,

I'm glad those references worked out and that you traced them so
quickly. If the original deed of Bishop Edmund Stafford concerning
Clifton has disappeared, the transcript mentioned in Shaw's
Staffordshire may still exist in the papers of John Huntbach or
Stebbing Shaw held at the William Salt Library in Stafford; or it may
have been printed somewhere in the William Salt Society's Staffordshire
History Collections (or even elsewhere in Shaw's book, as I only have
the extracts I made a while ago).
My grandmother was a Vernon, of a junior branch based at Clontarf in
Dublin; looking at their pedigrees it became clear that no two agreed,
so I began to investigate in more detail. I am sure there will always
be far more to discover, and some areas that can never be
satisfactorily dealt with. Excellent news about the Lleucu evidence
though.
Best wishes, Matthew

Rose

unread,
Jan 11, 2005, 12:41:02 PM1/11/05
to


Dear Douglas,


>I have seen one instance of a family who quartered the
> arms of another family from whom they inherited the lands, but which
> they were not directly descended

According to my research the Stanley family were directly descended
from the Camville family through Sir John Stanley's (d. 1508)
grandmother, Maud de Arderne. Maud de Camville (married to Sir Richard
Vernon) was the 2 x great grandmother of Maud de Arderne.

Rose

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

unread,
Jan 11, 2005, 3:11:52 PM1/11/05
to
Hello Rose,
yes, I should clarify that there was no question over the fact of the
Stanley descent from Camville; it was the Vernons' descent under
scrutiny, and the heraldry in consequence of that. Only the Pype arms
appear to be on the Stanley tomb without any direct descent. Apologies
for any ambiguity-
Best, Matthew

Mayt...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 11, 2005, 3:20:50 PM1/11/05
to
Hello Mathew,

I have only just seen this string and picked up that issue on the Stanley
family. Thank you for claryifing. It does get rather confusing at times!

Rose

Rick Eaton

unread,
Jan 11, 2005, 4:11:54 PM1/11/05
to
I don't think that this question has been answered:

Are the Vernons and Verduns the same family.

The bit of heraldry I've seen seems to suggest they are.

Rick Eaton


Alex Maxwell Findlater

unread,
Jan 12, 2005, 1:51:59 AM1/12/05
to
These arms were called arms of inferior dominion. They were quite
common on the continent and also in Scots armory. See Innes of
Learney, Stevenson or Woodward for an explanation.

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

unread,
Jan 12, 2005, 6:24:18 AM1/12/05
to
Re: Vernon and Verdon, it seems to be coincidence that as well as
similar names they both (in certain lines) bear 'fretty' coats. They
are presumed to derive their names from the distinct places of Vernon
and Verdun (although Dr Keats-Rohan mentions Vaire-sur-Mer, Calvados as
a possible alternative origin for Richard de Vernon in her 'Domesday
People'). Further, the first examples I know of of a Vernon 'fretty'
coat are a grant of 1298-9 by Richard de Vernon sealed fretty, a canton
(Dictionary of British Arms- Medieval Ordinary vol 2, ed Woodcock et
al. 1996, p225) and a deed of 1302-3 by Richard de Vernon, kt bearing
"a fine impression of his seal (fretty, a canton)" (HMC Rutland iv.29);
this Richard was paternally a le Francis, and FW Ragg in his "Maud's
Meaburn and Newby" p361 notes the similarity of the medieval arms of
the de Cliburn family (argent, fretty with a chief sable), the de
Cliburns also deriving paternally from this le Francis family. The
earlier William de Vernon of Harlaston, etc sealed variously with "two
bars" and "a lion passant to sinister coward" (Dictionary of British
arms- Medieval Ordinary vol 1 ed. Chesshyre & Woodcck 1992, pp 16 and
187) and perhaps also with "an animal with a fleur de lis behind it "
(HMC Rutland iv.25). So it seems the fretty coat of Sir Richard did not
derive from his (maternal) Vernon ancestry.

Janet Ariciu

unread,
Jan 12, 2005, 8:11:08 AM1/12/05
to
Question is this Richard de Vernon that talking about?
Richard de Vernon, son of Warine, died in his father lifetime, and m?d c17
Henry H. Avice, daughter (and with her sister Eilzabeth) coheir of William
de Avenil o fhaddon. Co. Derby. On that date William de Avenil granted a
charter in which he name his daughter Avice, wife of Richard de Vernon, and
another daughter who married Simon Bassett. Yeaman places this Richard as a
son of William de Vernon, Earl of Devon Fl. 1155 by his wife Lucia dau and
heir of Richard de Vernon of St. Sauveur in the Colentin. This Richard had a
grant of lands in Tidewell Co. Derby, from John Count of Mortain (later King
John), in 4 Richard. Richard had the custom of the county of Lancaster, and
at his death was buried in Linton Priory. Richard died before his father and
left four sons, Warne, Baron of Shipbroke m?d had issue: Warnie succeeded
his grandfather as Baron of Shipbroke m?d Auda, daughter and coheir of
William Malback. He in turn had two son Warnie and Ralph) Ralph, a priest;
Sir William and Robert (it may have been his son William who married Alice,
daughter and heir of William Avenil of Haldon. He had a daughter Hawise who
m?d 1st her cousin, Richard, son of William de Vernon and 2nd Gilbert le
Francis.

Richard de Vernon; married 1171 Avice, daughter and coheir of William de
Avenell, of Haddon, Derbys, and dvp. [Burke's Peerage]

Janet


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mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

unread,
Jan 12, 2005, 9:28:04 AM1/12/05
to
The Sir Richard de Vernon who bore the 'fretty' arms in 1298 was son of
the Gilbert le Francis and Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon who
appear at the end of your cited pedigree. Otherwise I'm afraid the rest
is a bit muddled, as it splices together the Vernons of Haddon and
Shipbrook, and there is still no proof as far as I know (and I would
welcome any) of how they are connected (if at all). Ditto the earls of
Devon; all three families produced contemporaneous Richard de Vernons
but attempts to conflate them, if tempting, are only conjecture.
Richard de Vernon who married Avice Avenal c.1170 appears in various
records but not in connection with his father, so he must be considered
the first known link in this line. The fact that the Haddon line also
held Harlaston,Staffs and Churchill, Oxon suggests a connection with
the Walter, grandson of Walter de Vernon, who was regranted Harlaston
in 1155; and the Walter who held Churchill at the time of Domesday, the
latter being perhaps the named grandfather of the former. Richard and
Avice had sons William and Robert, William in turn having sons Richard
and Robert. Hawise seems to have been daughter of this latter Robert,
despite often being attributed to his uncle of the same name.

Rick Eaton

unread,
Jan 12, 2005, 4:49:41 PM1/12/05
to
Thanks to mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk for his or her discussion of the
Vernon and Verdun names and families and their arms. This appears to negate
the possibility that the families were identical, which either helps me a
great deal or ruins my day, depending on ones perspective.

Rick Eaton

[NAMERick Eatonmvern...@yahoo.co.ukeaton.noble@sbcglobal.net

mjw...@hidden-knowledge.com

unread,
Jan 13, 2005, 2:20:17 AM1/13/05
to
There are a couple of de Vernons in Oxfordshire in the 1130 Pipe Roll,
including a Richard de Vernon. I seem to recall that he married one of
the Arsic daughters.

Do you know how he was connected with any of the other Vernons?
Haddon, Devon, etc.?

Michael Ward

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

unread,
Jan 13, 2005, 4:10:10 AM1/13/05
to
The Oxfordshire Richard de Vernon of 1130 Pipe Roll is identified as
being of Chinnor, Oxon and Croxton, Cambs, according to VCH Oxon
viii.57-8. Representation passes to Hugh de la Mare or Sans Aver from
Sussex who claimed Chinnor in 1216. As well as Churchill, there were
also Vernons of Hanwell in the same county (ibid ix.115), these latter
being the Shipbrook line. There was a Vernon family at Horningsham,
Wilts, with a Robert de Vernon there in the reign of Henry II; they
also may or may not be connected to any of the others.

Matthew Connolly

Rose

unread,
Jan 13, 2005, 4:40:39 PM1/13/05
to
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Dear Douglas,

>
> Interestingly, the tomb of Sir John Stanley senior (d.1474 or 1476)
at
> Elford in Staffordshire can be seen on Rose St Leger-May's website
at:
>
www.genealogy.com/users/s/t/l/Rosemary-St-legermay-Surrey/PHOTO/0016photo.html
> and his quarterings include Vernon itself, which can only be a
mistake
> (perhaps though dating to Victorian restoration of the church).
> Best wishes, Matthew Connolly

Matthew,

Glad to hear my photo of Sir John Stanley was of use to you! when I
uploaded it I never envisaged it would be useful for identifying family
connections. What would we do without the Internet?

Rose

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jan 23, 2005, 3:17:16 PM1/23/05
to
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Richard de Vernon who married Avice Avenal c.1170 appears in various
> records but not in connection with his father, so he must be considered
> the first known link in this line.

[snip]

> Richard and
> Avice had sons William and Robert, William in turn having sons Richard
> and Robert. Hawise seems to have been daughter of this latter Robert,
> despite often being attributed to his uncle of the same name.

How do you harmonize this with the plea roll pedigree showing
Hawise as daughter of Robert, son of Matilda? The alternatives
seem to be that it is simply erroneous, or that William married
first to Margaret, and second to Matilda. (It works no better to
make Hawise granddaughter of Richard and Avice.)

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jan 23, 2005, 3:17:08 PM1/23/05
to
Janet Ariciu wrote:
> Question is this Richard de Vernon that talking about?
> Richard de Vernon, son of Warine, died in his father lifetime, and m?d c17
> Henry H. Avice, daughter (and with her sister Eilzabeth) coheir of William
> de Avenil o fhaddon. Co. Derby. On that date William de Avenil granted a
> charter in which he name his daughter Avice, wife of Richard de Vernon, and
> another daughter who married Simon Bassett. Yeaman places this Richard as a
> son of William de Vernon, Earl of Devon Fl. 1155 by his wife Lucia dau and
> heir of Richard de Vernon of St. Sauveur in the Colentin.

This is an old hypothesis, but I know of nothing supporting it,
and if I recall correctly, CP shows Richard, son of William and
Lucia, to have left a daughter and heiress, so it really doesn't
work.

Again, IIRC, this theory, as typically presented, misidentifies
the William who married Lucia as Earl, when he was in fact uncle
of the namesake earl (who married Mabel). Further, the pedigree
traces these Earls of Devon in the male line from Baldwin de
Brione and on to Richard I of Normandy, when in fact they descend
from a Vernon family into which married a niece of Gunnor.

Calling Lucia a daughter of Richard de Vernon of St. Sauveur
appears an attempt to explain the Vernon toponym (rendered
necessary by the erroneous male line) while likewise to connect
them with the St. Sauveurs, a favorite target for Norman families.

taf

mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk

unread,
Jan 24, 2005, 6:39:13 AM1/24/05
to

Todd,

this is a good point and needs to be examined. For anyone unfamiliar
with this, it is a plea of 4 Edw.II concerning Pitchcott in Bucks., and
is printed in Wrottesley's 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls' at top of
p.534. In it, Richard de 'Vernun' states that he is son and heir of
Hawys, who married Gilbert Fraunceys; that Hawys was daughter and heir
of Robert, brother and heir of Richard; and that the latter Robert and
Richard were sons of one Matilda de Vernun, described in relation to
the plaintiff as "proavia sua cujus heres ipse est" (his
great-grandmother, whose heir he is). He states that Matilda presented
to Pitchcott in the time of King John, the implication being that she
was then a widow.

If this is accepted as fact, it seems to rule out William de Vernon
(who certainly had sons called Richard and Robert) as the father of
these sons, as he died in the reign of Henry III and so cannot have
left a widow in the previous reign. William was son of Richard de
Vernon and Avice Avenal; this Richard likely was dead in the time of
King John, so perhaps he left (an otherwise unknown) Matilda as his
widow.

This is the basis for the descent given in VCH Bucks iv.89, which then
requires additions to reconcile it with further known facts. William de
Vernon certainly held Pitchcott in 1225 and 1236: yet, if not the
father of the Richard and Robert of the plea, he does not get a mention
in the plea pedigree. Therefore he was not the right heir (as he was
son of Avice and not Matilda) and so would have held it "apparently as
guardian of Hawise daughter of his half-brother Robert Vernon". The
fact that William's son Richard held Pitchcott in the mid-13th century
is explained by his seemingly marrying Hawise, who afterwards married
Gilbert Francis. These deductions seem to be the logical solution
required by the plea pedigree.

However, there are problems. William did have a brother Robert, but he
was definitely son of Richard de Vernon by Avice Avenal- William
confirms the gift, of his father Richard de Vernon and mother Avice
Avenel, of lands in Ashampstead and Adstock, to his brother Robert, in
a charter tentatively dated by Round to the time of King John. The
facts that Robert was a younger brother, that Avice was mother of
William, and that Avice made the gift to Robert, leave no room for any
other mother for Robert. Also, there is no evidence of William having a
brother or half-brother called Richard- although obviously this doesn't
prove anything in itself. As to William only holding Pitchcott as
guardian to Hawise, William's brother Robert in fact outlived William
and witnessed a notification by the latter's executors in 1242. Hawise,
a significant heiress who married in 1257 and whose son and heir was
born c.1262, may well not have been born at the time William held
Pitchcott. And as for Hawise marrying William's son Richard, would a
marriage between first cousins -even of the half-blood- have been
likely at that time?

Perhaps the biggest question raised by the extrapolated pedigree is why
the Avenel lands in Haddon and Adstock didn't revert to the Basset
descendants of Avice Avenel's sister, if the later Vernons did not
descend from Avice. (The same might be said of the lands which came to
the Vernons by William's marriage to Margaret de Stockport; although as
she was not an heiress, the same rules might not apply.)

To look again at William: after his marriage to Margaret de Stockport,
he seems to have married a wife called Alice, and they are named as
both living in 1237. William was dead in 1242, as stated, his younger
son Robert also being a witness to the notification of that date. Could
William, within those five years, have taken a third wife, Matilda, and
had his sons Richard and Robert by her- Robert thus being an infant
witness? It surely seems unlikely. But as it is so far from the time of
King John anyway it wouldn't help the plea pedigree.

So, on the basis of all this I would have to say it is more likely that
the plea pedigree is in error, given that its necessary ramifications
seem to be directly contradicted by the immediate records. It may be
that these pedigrees, like visitations and indeed any pedigree, are
increasingly susceptible to error the further they extend into the
past. The information might even be deliberately wrong, if it helps a
case.

The fact is that William de Vernon in 1225 is the first of the family
on record as a tenant at Pitchcott, with no indication as to how, why
or when he came to be there. For the record, his mother-in-law was
called Matilda and she was a widow in 1206 (ie, temp. John). As already
mentioned, William's wife Margaret de Stockport (daughter of Matilda)
was not an heiress, but the Vernons acquired interests in several
manors in at least 3 counties from the Stockports as a result of the
alliance. Whether Pitchcott was another of these, there seems to be no
proof I can find right now; but this might be an explanation- although
the plea pedigree would still be wrong.

Matthew Connolly

Todd A. Farmerie

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Jan 26, 2005, 12:06:56 AM1/26/05
to
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> The fact is that William de Vernon in 1225 is the first of the family
> on record as a tenant at Pitchcott, with no indication as to how, why
> or when he came to be there.

Anyone out there aware of who held Pitchcott at any earlier time?

I will just add to your analysis that the entire plea roll claim
of inheritance may be 'creative' - IIRC (it has been a while
since I read this) the manner in which the Vernon properties came
to the Franceys was not by simple inheritance, but rather
confiscation and regrant to Gilbert le Fraunceys, along with
Hawise in marriage.

taf

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