Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of Commons

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

A prominent man in the medieval period is Sir John Say (died 1478), of
Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, who held a variety of responsible posts in
his long career in public service: Coroner of the Marshalsea, Yeoman
of the Chamber & Crown, Keeper of Westminster Palace, Chancellor of
the Duchy of Lancaster, Privy Councillor, Under Treasurer of England,
Keeper of the Great Wardrobe, and Speaker of the House of Commons. By
her first marriage to Frederick Tilney, Sir John Say's wife, Elizabeth
Cheyne, is better known as an ancestress of Queen Anne Boleyn.

Contemporary evidence indicates that Sir John Say had two brothers,
[Master] William Say [Dean of St. Paul’s, Master of the Hospital of St
Anthony, London] and Thomas Say, clerk, of London. However, the
parentage of these three brothers has always been shrouded in mystery.

Genealogist n.s. 7 (1890): 57 identifies the parents of Sir John Say
as being John Saye, of Poldington, Bedfordshire, and his wife, Maud.
I've never been able to confirm that alleged parentage.

Recently I came across the lawsuit below dated 1447 which features
John Robberdes and his wife, Alice, as plaintiffs against William
Gawge. The lawsuit involves a debt owed by the said Gawge to Alice
Robberdes' former husband, John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire.
John Say was living in 1439, but dead before 1447.

Possibly this lawsuit would be helpful in unraveling the parentage of
Sir John Say.
'
Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/744, rot. 336d

Term: Hilary 1447
County: London
Writ type: Debt (bond)
Damages claimed: £20
Case type: Bond

Pleading: John and Alice Robberdes state that on 1 October 1439
William Gawge made bond with John Say, now deceased, in £10, but did
not pay JS during his lifetime, and has not paid Alice, widow and
executor of JS, or JR, her new husband, to their damage of £20. They
show the bond in court, and the testamentary letters of JS, by which
they have executry and administration.

Pleading: WG granted licence to imparl to quindene of Easter. Pledges
named.

Case notes: Many of same people appear in another case on this rot,
and two more on rot 340d.
Events Type Place Date
Bond London < England (initial) 01/10/1439
(due) 02/02/1440 < Blessed Virgin Mary, Purification of
(due) 25/12/1440 < Christmas

Individuals Individual Status Occupation Place
Role
Alice Robberdes (f)

Executor, Plaintiff
Henry Wylton (m)

Attorney of plaintiff
John Chapman (m) Yeoman Sywell <
Northamptonshire Surety for defendant
John Robberdes (m)

Plaintiff
John Say (m) dec. Podington <
Bedfordshire Testator
Richard Pittis (m) Gentleman Brigstock <
Northamptonshire Surety for defendant
Thomas Craunfeld (m) Gentleman Brigstock < Northamptonshire
Surety for defendant
William Archebold (m) Husbandman Rushden < Northamptonshire
Surety for defendant
William Gawge (m) Husbandman (lately of) Hinwick <
Bedfordshire Defendant

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier post, I find there is a short biography of
Thomas Saye, originally of Poddington, Bedfordshire, published in The
Eton College Register, 1441-1698 (1943), page 297. I take this Thomas
Saye to be the Thomas Saye, clerk, who was the brother of Sir John
Say. A snippet view of the Eton College Register may be viewed at the
following weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?ei=OXMDT43gLqSYiQKY3ci6Dg&id=RtjOAAAAMAAJ&dq=John+Saye+Poddington&q=Poddington#search_anchor

https://www.google.com/#pq=thomas+saye+rawlinson&hl=en&ds=bo&cp=50&gs_id=j5&xhr=t&q=%22he+was+the+most+noted+mathematician+of+his+time.%22&tok=8S8vsm0Z7hUoSCd5hv32Fg&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&tbm=bks&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=%22he+was+the+most+noted+mathematician+of+his+time.%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=de99282583cf885b&biw=1366&bih=638

According to the Eton College Register, this Thomas Saye was aged 15
in 1443, when he took the oath to obey the statutes. He was elected
scholar of King's College, Cambridge in 1445, and left as fellow in
1458. Rawlinson says "he was the most noted mathematician of his
time. Having given himself up much to the study of the stars, he had a
great opinion of their influence on mankind and writ several pieces in
Latin and English on the subject ..."

Is anyone able to confirm that this Thomas Saye is Sir John Say's
brother? Does the reference to Poddington, Bedfordshire come from the
Eton College Register, or from another secondary source.

If it is from the Register itself, it seems a good bet then that Sir
John Say and his two brothers, William and Thomas, are the children of
the John Saye, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, living 1439, whose widow
and executrix, Alice, married (2nd) before 1447 John Roberts.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Janet Wolfe]

Here is the case on the AALT website, in case you'd like to read it.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm

It appears to be folio 340d rather than 336d. The folio numbers must be
below rather than above the case descriptions on the British History Online
website.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Janet.

I overlooked adding the weblink to the lawsuit for John and Alice
Robberdes. I'm glad to see you provided it. Thank you.

The lawsuit indicates that John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, left
a will. I don't suppose that survived the mists of time.

[Janet Wolfe]

The case does start on folio 336d (it's a bit tricky to read the odd upside
down folio numbers!)

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1467.htm

So the folio numbers are above the case descriptions as one would expect.
The cases on folio 340d is also described on the British History Online
website, below the case on folio 336d.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:16 PM
To: 'Douglas Richardson'; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of
Commons

Here is the case on the AALT website, in case you'd like to read it.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm

It appears to be folio 340d rather than 336d. The folio numbers must be
below rather than above the case descriptions on the British History Online
website.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:55 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

[Janet Wolfe]

The second case (on folio 340d) indicates that Alice's deceased husband John
Say was still alive 20 April 1442, so that narrows the window for his death
date by a couple of years. This second case is shown on AALT in the
following image:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1476.htm

The defendant in the first case was, according to the abstract, "granted
licence to imparl to quindene of Easter." Perhaps one could find what he
pleaded by finding the relevant image, if there is one, in the 1447 Easter
term CP cases.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 6:04 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of
Commons

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Checking the online National Archives Catalogue just now, I found the
following three Chancery suits below which are dated variously
1432-1443, possibly 1467-1470; 1433-1443, or more likely 1467-1472;
and 1433-1443, or more likely 1467-1472. They all appear to concern
the resignation of a parsonage in London by Edward Poynings to Thomas
Say, clerk, after appointing Nicholas Rawlet as curate.

C 1/10/238 Edward Ponyngges, clerk, late parson of St. Austin's. v.
Thomas Say, clerk, William Say, dean of St. Pauls (Powlys), and Sir
John Say, knt.: Actions of trespass in breach of an agreement.:
London. 1432-1443, possibly 1467-1470
C 1/43/271 Nicholas Rawlat, priest v. Master Edward Ponynges, late
parson of St. Austin's, Watling Street, London.: Resignation of the
said parsonage by defendant to Thomas Say, after appointing
complainant as curate.: London. 1433-1443, or more likely 1467-1472
C 1/46/143 Sir Nicholas Rawelet, parson of St. Austyn, London. v. The
mayor and sheriffs of London.: Arrest pending an action for debt
brought by Thomas Say. Corpus cum causa.: London. 1433-1443, or more
likely 1467-1472

The lawsuits would surely all date in the later period, 1467-1472. I
say that because Sir John Say (died 1478) and his known brother,
William Say, Dean of Saint Pauls's, are named together in the first
suit.

William Say didn't become Dean of Saint Paul's until 1457, as
indicated by the record below.

Source: Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1300-1541: volume 5: St Paul's,
London (1963): 4-7.

M. William Say D.Th. 1457-1468. El. 21 Nov. 1457 (transcript of
'Liber G' in Dugdale p. 403; cf. Brooke p. 243). D. 3/24 Nov. 1468
(PCC 26 Godyn; Reg. T. Kempe pt. i f. 115).

Hence it is apparent that all three lawsuits would date from after
1457. But the first lawsuit would have to date from before 1468,
which is the year William Say died. So the first lawsuit definitely
can be dated 1467-8; the other two could be 1467-72.

The following two records both dated 1466 come from Papal Registers.
They apparently relate to this same legal matter as the three Chancery
lawsuits above. In the first record, Thomas Say is identified as
"Thomas Say, clerk, of London." In the second record, he is
identified as "Thomas Say, clerk, of the diocese of Lincoln." My
first thought is that Thomas Say, clerk, named in these proceedings is
Thomas Say, the known brother of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of
the House of Commons. However, in the second petition below, Thomas
Say, clerk, specifically states that he was aged 23 on or about the
time of the accession of the current Pope, which I presume took place
in 1464. If so, this Thomas Say would have been born c.1441, give or
take. That seems a bit young to be Sir John Say's brother, Thomas
Say. Rather, I believe the Speaker's brother to be the Thomas Say, of
Poddington, Bedfordshire, born c. 1428, who is mentioned in the Eton
College Register. While it is true that Sir John Say also had a son
named Thomas, that Thomas can't be the same person as Thomas Say,
clerk, in these petitions, as Sir John Say and his wife, Elizabeth
Cheyne, were married about 11 Nov. 1446, which is too late for Thomas
Say, clerk, to have been their son.

My guess is that Sir John Say the Speaker was born about 1420, as he
first occurs in an account-book of the Controller of the King’s
Household for the year, Michaelmas 1443–4, where he is listed as one
of some 40 valetti camere domini Regis [see Roskell, Parliament &
Politics in Late Medieval England 2 (1981): 153–174 (biog. of Sir John
Say)].

So were there three Thomas Say's?

Source:
Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland,
Volume 12: 1458-1471 (1933): 453 & 545–546:

1466. Non. July. (7 July.)
St. Mark's, Rome.
(f. 257d.) To the archbishop of York, John bishop of Ardfert, residing
in the city of London, and the abbot of St. Peter's, Westminster, in
the diocese of London. Mandate, as below. The recent petition of
Edward Ponynges, rector of St. Augustine's by Watling Strete, London,
contained that although he obtained the said church by canonical
collation, and held it for some time in peace, nevertheless, inasmuch
as Thomas Say, clerk, of London, was hindering his peaceable
possession, he, the said Edward, appealed directly to the apostolic
see, and by way of precaution to the court of Canterbury (fn. 6) ;
that although Edward had caused Thomas to be inhibited by authority of
the said court not to attempt anything to his prejudice whilst the
said appeal was pending, nevertheless, in contempt of the appeal and
inhibition, and upon Thomas's false report to Thomas Winterburne,
auditor of the court of causes of Thomas archbishop of Canterbury,
that Edward was wrongfully detaining possession of the said church,
the said auditor, without citing Edward, by an unjust sentence
declared, at Thomas's instance, the induction which had been made of
Edward to have been and to be null, wherefore Edward has appealed anew
to the said see. The pope, therefore, orders the above three to summon
Thomas Say and others concerned, hear both sides, taking cognizance
also of the principal matter, and decide what is just, without appeal,
causing their decision to be observed by ecclesiastical censure.
Humilibus supplicum votis. (N. and A. de Cortesiis. | N. xiiii.de
Bonaparte.) [1⅓ pp.]

1466. 3 Id. Aug. (11 Aug.)
St. Mark's, Rome.
(f. 172d.) To the archdeacon of Berkshire (Barkschirie) in the church
of Salisbury, dwelling in the city of London. Mandate, as below. The
recent petition of Thomas Say, clerk, of the diocese of Lincoln,
contained that after Pius II had granted to Vincent Clementis,
collector of the papal Camera in England, faculty to dispense any
persons of the realm on account of defect of age to hold, after
attaining their twenty third year, a benefice with cure [see Cal.
Papal Letters, Vol. XI, p. 23], the said collector dispensed the said
Thomas accordingly. Subsequently, after the accession of the present
pope, on the voidance of the parish church of St. Augustine without
the gate of the cemetery (cimpiterii) of the church of London, the
said Thomas, then in his said twenty-third year, obtained collation of
it by authority of the ordinary, but, inasmuch as the pope revoked all
such collectors’ faculties to dispense, in cases in which they had not
yet taken effect, some doubt whether the said dispensation was not
therefore revoked, and whether the said Thomas had not obtained the
said church uncanonically. The pope therefore orders the above
archdeacon to summon those concerned, and, after inquiry, to declare
and decree that the said dispensation was and is not revoked by the
said revocation of faculties, and that Thomas could and can receive
and retain the said church by virtue of the said dispensation.Sic
decet Iesu Christi vicarium. (Hug. and Ja. Prats. | Hug. xxiiii.
Folani, prothon. Bisuntin., etc.) [2 pp.]

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[MILLARD A.R.]

> From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
> Sent: 03 January 2012 21:46

>
> As a followup to my earlier post, I find there is a short biography of
> Thomas Saye, originally of Poddington, Bedfordshire, published in The
> Eton College Register, 1441-1698 (1943), page 297. I take this Thomas
> Saye to be the Thomas Saye, clerk, who was the brother of Sir John
> Say. A snippet view of the Eton College Register may be viewed at the
> following weblinks:

<snip>

> According to the Eton College Register, this Thomas Saye was aged 15
> in 1443, when he took the oath to obey the statutes. He was elected
> scholar of King's College, Cambridge in 1445, and left as fellow in
> 1458. Rawlinson says "he was the most noted mathematician of his
> time. Having given himself up much to the study of the stars, he had a
> great opinion of their influence on mankind and writ several pieces in
> Latin and English on the subject ..."
>
> Is anyone able to confirm that this Thomas Saye is Sir John Say's
> brother? Does the reference to Poddington, Bedfordshire come from the
> Eton College Register, or from another secondary source.

The remainder of the entry in the Eton College Register is the close of the quote from Rawlinson mostly about his writing, but ending "He was married". The references given are:
Thomas Harwood, Alumni Etonenses 1797
Venn, Alumni Cantabrigienses
Notarial Document in Eton College Library Drawer D6
Bodleian Library Oxford, Rawlinson MSS B 265

Harwood has only the name and date
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ubY8AAAAYAAJ&vq=saye&pg=PA104#v=snippet&q=saye&f=false
Venn provides the 'of Podington' detail
http://www.archive.org/stream/p1alumnicantabri04univuoft#page/25/mode/1up

Very few entries in the Eton College Register seem to give details of parents.

Best wishes

Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy:   http://www.one-name.org/homepages/bodimeade/
My family history:     http://www.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Andrew ~

Thank you for posting these details regarding Thomas Say, of
Poddington, Bedfordshire. Much appreciated.

If I read your comments correctly, the Eton College Register likely
used Venn, Cantabrigienses as its source that Thomas Say derived from
Poddington, Bedfordshire.

Below is a reference to a record dated 1477 in which Master William
Say, Dean of St. Paul's, is styled "brother" of Sir John Say.

Anstey, ed., Epistolae Academicae Oxon. (Registrum F): 1421-1457 Pt. 2
(Oxford Hist. Soc. 36) (1898): 428, which item may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=N_JAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA428

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Jan 6, 3:25 pm, "MILLARD A.R." <a.r.mill...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> > From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalances...@msn.com]

> > Sent: 03 January 2012 21:46
>
> > As a followup to my earlier post, I find there is a short biography of

> > Thomas Saye, originally ofPoddington, Bedfordshire, published in The

> > Eton College Register, 1441-1698 (1943), page 297.  I take this Thomas
> > Saye to be the Thomas Saye, clerk, who was the brother of Sir John
> > Say.  A snippet view of the Eton College Register may be viewed at the
> > following weblinks:
> <snip>
> > According to the Eton College Register, this Thomas Saye was aged 15
> > in 1443, when he took the oath to obey the statutes.  He was elected
> > scholar of King's College, Cambridge in 1445, and left as fellow in
> > 1458.  Rawlinson says "he was the most noted mathematician of his
> > time. Having given himself up much to the study of the stars, he had a
> > great opinion of their influence on mankind and writ several pieces in
> > Latin and English on the subject ..."
>
> > Is anyone able to confirm that this Thomas Saye is Sir John Say's

> > brother?  Does the reference toPoddington, Bedfordshire come from the

> > Eton College Register, or from another secondary source.
>
> The remainder of the entry in the Eton College Register is the close of the quote from Rawlinson mostly about his writing, but ending "He was married". The references given are:
> Thomas Harwood, Alumni Etonenses 1797
> Venn, Alumni Cantabrigienses
> Notarial Document in Eton College Library Drawer D6
> Bodleian Library Oxford, Rawlinson MSS B 265
>

> Harwood has only the name and datehttp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ubY8AAAAYAAJ&vq=saye&pg=PA104#v=sn...
> Venn provides the 'of Podington' detailhttp://www.archive.org/stream/p1alumnicantabri04univuoft#page/25/mode...

>
> Very few entries in the Eton College Register seem to give details of parents.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Andrew
> --

> Andrew Millard - A.R.Mill...@durham.ac.uk

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Weever, Antient Funeral Monuments (1767): 317–318 includes a
transcript of the monumental inscription at Broxbourne, Hertfordshire
for Lady Elizabeth Cheyne (died 1473), wife successively of Frederick
Tilney, Esq. (died c.1446), of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, and John Say,
Knt. (died 1478), of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire. Lady Elizabeth
Cheyne is a lineal ancestress of Queen Anne Boleyn and her daughter,
Queen Elizabeth I.

"Here lyth dame Eliyabeth, somtym wyff to syr John Say, knyght, dawter
to Lawrence Cheyne, esqwyr, of Cambridge shyre. A woman of nobyl
blode, and most nobyl in grace and mannors. She dyed xxv Septemb.
M.cccc.lxxiii, and was enterryed in this parysh church, abyding the
body of her said husband; whos sowls God bring to everlastyng lyff."
END OF QUOTE.

The transcript may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.archive.org/stream/antientfuneralm00weevgoog#page/n517/mode/2up

As noted above, Lady Elizabeth Cheyne is styled "a woman of noble
blood." A review of her ancestry indicates that she was descended on
her father's side from John d'Engaine, 2nd Lord Engaine, and on her
mother's side from Reynold de Grey, Knt., 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin, and
John le Strange, Knt., 2nd Lord Strange of Blackmere. This would
surely entitle her to be styled "of noble blood."

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Elizabeth Cheyne, by one of her two
marriages:

Essex Beville, Mary Bourchier, Charles Calvert, Humphrey Davie, Muriel
Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce,
Herbert Pelham, William Rodney, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton
(husband of immigrant, Anne Derehaugh), John West

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The book, Obituary Roll of William Ebchester and John Burnby, Priors
of Durham (Surtees Soc. 31) (1856) includes a list of letters of
fraternity granted by the Prior and Convent of Durham Cathedral.

Among the persons who appear on this ancient list is Lady Katherine
Pabenham (died 1436), widow successively of William Cheyne, Knt., and
Thomas Aylesbury, Knt. Lady Katherine was the paternal grandfather of
Lady Elizabeth Cheyne, wife of Frederick Tilney, Esq., and John Say,
Knt. As such, she is an ancestress of Queen Anne Boleyn and her
daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

The second person below is Master William Say, Dean of St. Paul's
(died 1468) [brother of Sir John Say], which William was granted
letters of fraternity for kindness shown to Durham College. William
Say had a distinguished career, which explains why he is here
respectfully called "venerable and circumspect."

pg. 109: "1423. 15 May. To the honourable lady the Lady Katherine de
Aylesbury, of the county of Lincoln." END OF QUOTE. This record may

be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=kh88AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA109

pg. 111: "1468. 25 April. To the venerable and circumspect man Mr.
William Say, Professor of the Sacred Page. Kindnesses to our College
of Oxford." END OF QUOTE. This record may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=kh88AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA111

Does anyone know what a Professor of the Sacred Page is?

[wjhonson]

On Jan 8, 2:08 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~

>
> This record may be viewed at the
> following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=kh88AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA111
>
> Does anyone know what a Professor of the Sacred Page is?
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Professor of the Sacred Page was merely the older title of what was
later simply or otherwise called a Doctor of Divinity.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Janet (and others) ~

I found another image on AALT which pertains to the 1447 lawsuit of
John Roberdes and Alice his wife, widow and executrix of John Say, of
Podington, Bedfordshire. The weblink is provided below:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm

Elsewhere I note that there is a reference to John Say, Esquire, of
Podington, Bedfordshire in the published 1568 Visitation of London,
pp. 80-81.

According to the snippet views of this visitation, John Say, of
Podington, Bedfordshire married a daughter of Colbroke and had issue a
son Robert Saye. This family is traced for several generations in the
pedigree which follows.

https://www.google.com/#pq=podington+john+say&hl=en&ds=bo&cp=39&gs_id=kw&xhr=t&q=Visitation+Poddington+John+Say+Colbroke&tok=jDTTrJiC_xm8tH6p7mfcxA&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&tbm=bks&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Visitation+Poddington+John+Say+Colbroke&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=fd15e019f456dc4d&biw=1366&bih=609

http://books.google.com/books?ei=OGYKT8raFuTRiAKE98miCQ&sqi=2&id=wF9mAAAAMAAJ&dq=Visitation+Poddington+John+Say&q=Robert+Say#search_anchor

According to the London visitation, the arms of the Say family of
Podington, Bedfordshire were: Per pale azure and gules, three chevrons
argent voided counter-changed.

According to VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 438, the arms of Sir John Say
(died 1478), of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire were: Party azure and gules
three cheverons or voided gules and azure).

I assume it is due to the similarity of arms that people have assumed
that John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, might be the father of Sir
John Say (died 1478), of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire. I don't know if
the John Say who heads the London visitation pedigree is the same
person as John Say, of Podington, living 1442, who left a widow,
Alice, but if so, the visitation might be an indication that Alice was
a Colbroke by birth.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

According to Chris Phillips' great website, Some Notes on Medieval
English Genealogy (http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/
CP_25_1_6_74.shtml#24), there is an existing fine which shows that
John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, and Richard Huet, clerk,
purchased one messuage and 60 acres of land in Hinwick (in Podington),
Bedfordshire in 1408. The image of the original document at AALT can

be viewed at the following weblink:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/CP25no1/CP25_1_6/IMG_1029.htm

CP 25/1/6/74, number 24.

County: Bedfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from the Purification of the Blessed Mary, 9 Henry
[IV] [9 February 1408].
Parties: John Say of Podyngton' and Richard Huet, clerk, querents,
and William Parker of Sharnebrook and Joan, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 1 messuage and 60 acres of land in Hynwyk.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: William and Joan have acknowledged the tenements to be the
right of Richard, as those which Richard and John have of their gift,
and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of
Joan to John and Richard and the heirs of Richard for ever.
For this: John and Richard have given them 20 marks of silver.

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions,
intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: John Say, Richard Hewett, William Parker, Joan Parker
Places: Podington, Sharnbrook, Hinwick (in Podington)

The above fine suggests that John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire was
old enough to have been the father of Master William Say, Dean of
Saint Paul's, which William is a known brother of Sir John Say (died
1478), of Broxbourne, Bedfordshire. I estimate that Master William
Say was born circa 1410, as he was first admitted as a scholar at
Winchester College in 1425. I assume the John Say in the fine above
above is the same person as John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire,
living 1442, dead by 1447, whose widow, Alice, married John Robberdes.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my original post in this thread, I cited a lawsuit dated 1447 which
reference I supplied as Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/744, rot. 336d.

I inadvertedly neglected to say that I pulled the citation of this
lawsuit from the series of abstracts of law suits entitled "Court of
Common Pleas: The National Archives, CP40 - 1399-1500." These
abstracts are available at British History Online website (http://
www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=1272).

Janet and I have since supplied references to the online images of the
original lawsuit available on the AALT website.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my posts on Elizabeth (Cheyne) (Tilney) Say and her grandmother,
Katherine (Pabenham) (Cheyne) Aylesbury, I stated that the two women
were ancestral to Queen Anne Boleyn and her daughter, Queen Elizabeth
I. I should have added that they are also ancestral to Queens Jane
Seymour and Katherine Howard, and to King Edward VI of England.

[Douglas Richardson]

On Jan 8, 9:23 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Janet (and others) ~
>
> I found another image on AALT which pertains to the 1447 lawsuit of
> John Roberdes and Alice his wife, widow and executrix of John Say, of
> Podington, Bedfordshire.  The weblink is provided below:
>
>    http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm

Janet ~

I just read your posts again and see that you provided three images to
the lawsuit involving John Robberdes and his wife, Alice, namely 1467,
1475, and 1476. I didn't see the post for the 1475 weblink.

Thanks for sharing these weblinks with me. Do you descend from Sir
John Say or his wife, Elizabeth Cheyne?

[Janet Wolfe]

Douglas, I do not, to my knowledge, descend from Sir John Say or his wife,
Elizabeth Cheyne, but I still have a lot of missing ancestors in my
database.

I think I just happened to be practicing reading the odd Roman numerals at
the bottom of the CP40 folios (the rot. numbers) when you posed your
question. I was thinking it would be useful for someone to link the
abstracts on the British History Online website to the images of the CP40
documents on AALT.

For example, for the case about William Hexstall and his (second) wife Joan,
former wife and executor of Roger Elmbrigge, one could provide the following
information:

The Easter 1447 and Easter 1448 Common Pleas suit abstracted on British
History Online at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118108#s6
is available on AALT in the following images
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no741/aCP40no741fronts/IMG_0225.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no745/aCP40no745fronts/IMG_0805.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no745/aCP40no745fronts/IMG_0806.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no745/bCP40no745dorses/IMG_1794.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no745/bCP40no745dorses/IMG_1795.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no745/aCP40no745fronts/IMG_0807.htm

(I thank Matt Tompkins for finding the AALT images of this case for me and
showing me how to use the "rot." numbers to find AALT images of CP40 cases.)

By the way, I think the Joan in the case above is likely the mother of
Margaret Hexstall who married (1) William Whetenhall and (2) Henry Ferrers
and was an ancestress of various "gateway" immigrants discussed in Magna
Carta Ancestry and/or Plantagenet Ancestry.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:57 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of
Commons

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a well written and well researched biography of Sir John Say
(died 1478), Speaker of the House of Commons, by J.S. Roskell
published in his book, Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval
England, 2 (1981): 153–174. This biography may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=k95Sra3I56oC&pg=PA153

Mr. Roskell discusses the origin of Sir John Say in a paragraph on
page 154:

"It is not known for sure who were John Say's parents or when he was
born, but it is possible that he was descended from the family of
Geoffrey, Baron de Ssy (c.1305-59), himself a descendant of William de
Say and his wife Beatrice, sister of Geoffrey de Mandeville, Earl of
Essex. On occasion he is referred to as "Fiennes the Speaker"; and it
seems likely that he was closely connected with the family of James
Fiennes, Lord Saye and Sele, who was himself descended from a younger
daughter of Geoffrey, Baron de Say. He may have been the son of John
Say of Podington (Beds). [Reference: Wedgwood, op. cit., Biographies,
744]. He was certainly the brother (probably the younger brother) of
William Say, doctor of theology, formerly of New College, Oxford, who
by 1449 was Dean of the King's Chapel and Master of the Hospital of
St. Antony in London, and who retained these preferments, even after
his election as Dean of St. Paul's (in 1457) and his appointment as
Archdeacon of Northamptonshire (in 1464), down to his death in 1468,
when John Say acted as his executor. It is probable that the Speaker,
as well as his brother, had attended the schools of Oxford as a member
of the University." END OF QUOTE

In footnote 2 on page 172, Roskell adds the following comment:

"R. Clutterbuck (The History and Antiquities of the County of
Hertford, iii, 196) makes [Sir] John [Say] son of Sir John Heron,
nephew and heir of William [Heron] Lord Say, manorial lord of
Sawbridgeworth, to be father of Sir John Say, but this John Heron was
only nine years old in 1420, much later than which date the Speaker is
hardly likely to have been born. DNB, xvii, 876." END OF QUOTE.

Basically, Roskell discusses three theories which have been advanced
for Sir John Say's origins:

1. That he was descended from the baronial Say family of Kent.
2. That he was the son of John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire.
3. That he was the son of John Heron, Esq., died 1468, of
Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, Crawley, Eschot, and Hedgeley,
Northumberland, Eppleton (parish of Houghton-le-Spring), Morton, and
Twizel, Durham.

The first theory above was advanced by Roskell himself who says it is
"possible." However, this theory can be rejected, as the coat of arms
borne by Sir John Say doesn't match the arms of the baronial Say
family. Had the Speaker been descended from the baronial Say family,
he would have proudly employed the arms of the earlier baronial
family.

The second theory above was advanced by Wedgwood. I haven't checked
Wedgwood's source, but his information may have been taken from an
article in Genealogist n.s. 7 (1890): 57 which identifies Sir John
Say's parents as John Saye, of Poldington, Bedfordshire, and his wife,
Maud. Roskell says it "may" be true. Regarding this theory, Roskell
was probably arguing out of lack of records, as virtually nothing was
known of the Say family, of Poddington, Bedfordshire at the time
Roskell wrote. This theory appears to have merit, as the coat of arms
borne by the Speaker were apparently similar to those borne by the
Poddington family. The existence of the earlier John Say, of
Poddington, has now been confirmed. Furthermore, it is known that the
Speaker had a second brother, Thomas Say, who is likely the Thomas Say
who attended Eton College. Thomas Say is alleged by Venn to be from
Poddington, Bedfordshire.

The third theory above was advanced by the historian Clutterbuck.
This theory is also presented in a pedigree of the Heron family found
in Dodds, History of Northumberland 14 (1935): 410–411 (Heron ped.).
Clutterbuck was basically grasping at straws. He noted that Sir John
Say the Speaker acquired the manor of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire
following the death in 1468 of John Heron, Esq. This John Heron was
the 1st husband of Agnes Saint John, King Henry VII's forgotten aunt,
who has been the topic of another recent thread. Clutterbuck knew
that John Heron, Esquire, was the nephew and heir of an earlier Sir
William Heron, who was Lord Say in right of his 1st wife, Elizabeth
Say, the lineal heir of the baronial Say family. He reasoned that if
the manor of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire held by Sir William Haron,
Lord Say, went to John Heron, Esquire, and, then from John Heron,
Esquire, the manor went to Sir John Say the Speaker, that there must
be a connection between these families. Clutterbuck erred in his
theory, as it can be shown that John Heron's heir was not Sir John Say
the Speaker at all, but rather a distant cousin, Sir William Heron.
There appears to have been no connection at all between Sir John Say
the Speaker and John Heron, Esq. (husband of Agnes Saint John). The
transfer of the manor of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire to Sir John Say
was by purchase, not by inheritance.

So we are left with the Say of Poddington theory as the most viable
theory of the origins of Sir John Say. Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of Commons, had three
known sons, William, Knt., Thomas, Esq., and [Master] Leonard Say.
Several sources I've consulted online state that the second son,
Thomas Say (died 1497), was of Liston Hall, Essex and was a knight.

Fortunately, there is an inquisition post mortem available for this
Thomas Say. The inquisition clearly indicates that Thomas Say was the
owner of Liston Hall, Essex at the time of his death, but he was only
an esquire, not a knight. The inquisition post mortem is published in
Calendar of Inquisitions Henry VII, 1 (1898): 508, and may be viewed
at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xPMLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA508&lpg=PA508

The inquisition indicates that Thomas Say, Esquire, died 26 June 1497,
and left a son and heir, William, then aged 6. The inquisition
specifically names Thomas Say's wife, Joan, his father, Sir John Say,
his brothers, William and Leonard Say, and several sisters. The
inquisition indicates that Thomas Say, Esquire, died seised of three
manors, Liston Overhall, Liston Netherhall, and Liston Weston, all in
Essex.

It appears that Thomas Say's son, William, died young before c.1510,
as indicated a Pardon Roll of King Henry VIII published in Letters and
Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 1: 1509-1514
(published 1920), pp. 256-273:

10 July. Robert Husey, of Old Lafford or Oldslefforde, Linc., esq.,
and Anne his wife, and Wm. Clopton, of Longmelford, Suff., esq., and
Elizabeth his wife, the wives being sisters and heirs of Wm. Say, s.
and h. of Thomas Say, esq." END OF QUOTE

The above item may be consulted on the British History Online website
at the following weblink:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=102635&strquery=%22Thomas%20Say%22

Thus it would appear that Thomas Say, Esquire (died 1497), had one
son, William Say, and two daughters, Anne, wife of Robert Hussey,
Knt., and Elizabeth, wife of William Clopton, Esq.

The family of Anne Say and her husband, Sir Robert Hussey, Knt. (died
1546), of Halton, is presented in Cole, History of the Manor and
Township of Doddington (published 1897), pp. 83-85. This material

may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jTEVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA83

According to this source, Sir Robert Hussey and his wife, Anne Say,
had six children in all: one son, Thomas, and five daughters, Margaret
(wife of Henry Sutton and William Thorold, Esq.), Anne (wife of
Matthew Thimelby, Esq., and Robert Savile, Knt.), Mary (wife of John
Monson, Esq., and Simon Hall), Dorothy (wife of Ralph Quadring and
John Massingberd, Esq.), and Elizabeth (wife of Robert Horsman, Esq.).

On page 83 there is a transcript of an epitaph for Sir Robert Hussey
which states he married Anne Say "unam Haeredum .... Thome Say, de
Lyston, Mil." Here Thomas Say is incorrectly styled a knight.

Elsewhere there is another record of this family which correctly
states that Thomas Say was an esquire. This record is found in
Cochran, Second Catalogue of Manuscripts (1837): 126, and may be

viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=sLEQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126

This item consists of an indenture dated 1572 issued by John Mounson,
Esquire, son and heir of Mary Hall, wife of Simon Hall of North
Carleton, co. Lincoln, Esquire. John Mounson identifies his mother
Mary as "one of the four daughters and heirs of Anne Hussey," which
Anne in turn is identified as "one of the daughters and heirs of
Thomas Say, Esquire, brother of William Say, Knight."

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a pedigree of the Say family published in Mundy, Middlesex
Peds. (H.S.P. 65) (1914): 160–161. This pedigree may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://www.archive.org/stream/middlesexpedigre65mund#page/160/mode/2up

This pedigree gives the following information regarding Sir John Say
(died 1478), Speaker of the House of Commons:

“Sr John Say, knt. vnder Threaseror of England, [1] = Elizabeth or
Issabell da. & heire of Lawrance Cheney widdow of Frederick Tilney,
[2] = Agnes da. of John Danvers of Cothrop, renupt Sr John Frey.” END
OF QUOTE.

Sir John Say the Speaker is placed in the pedigree as a branch of the
Say family of Ickenham, Middlesex, whose ancestry is traced back to a
certain Hugh Say, of unknown place, who married _____, a daughter and
heiress of Robert Colebrooke. Sir John Say the Speaker is placed as
the brother of this Hugh Say in the pedigree, they allegedly being the
sons of a William Say.

Just why Sir John Say's family is attached to the Say family of
Ickenham, Middlesex is not explained, but from other sources I've
learned that the Say family of Ickenham bore the same coat of arms as
Sir John Say the Speaker.

The Middlesex pedigree appears to be a variant version of the 1568
Visitation of London which commences with John Say, of Poddington,
Bedfordshire, who married ____, daughter of _____ Colbroke.

The information regarding the children of Sir John Say the Speaker in
the Middlesex pedigree can not have come from the Speaker's immediate
family, as there are two striking errors in the pedigree. First error
is that his son, Thomas, is called "Sir Thomas Say, Kt." whereas I
have shown in another post in this thread that Thomas Say was an
esquire, not a knight. Second error is that Sir John Say's second
son, Leonard Say, who was a churchman is styled "Deane of Pauls,"
whereas it was actually Sir John Say's brother, [Master] William Say,
who was Dean of St. Paul's.

The following question arises: Did John Say, of Poddington,
Bedfordshire, marry a daughter of [Robert?] Colbroke, or was it Hugh
Say? Was she an heiress?

[Philip Cheyney]

Douglas Richardson wrote Jan 9, 4:23 am

>According to VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 438, the arms of Sir John Say
>(died 1478), of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire were: Party azure and gules
>three cheverons or voided gules and azure).

and on Jan 11, 8:32 pm

>Just why Sir John Say's family is attached to the Say family of
>Ickenham, Middlesex is not explained, but from other sources I've
>learned that the Say family of Ickenham bore the same coat of arms as
>Sir John Say the Speaker.

Many of the VCH volumes are a little cavalier in their treatment of
the heraldry for the families they discuss. They give sources for the
genealogy but nothing for the heraldry. In addition, many volumes
were written BW (= before Wagner), and so did not have access to the
sources that Sir Anthony's work and encouragement made available.

All the medieval evidence collated by the Dictionary of British Arms
ii. p 532, where it specifies the tinctures, is unanimous. Sir John
Say's arms were: per pale azure and gules, three chevrons argent
voided counterchanged gules and azure, i.e. the chevrons were edged
silver and not, as in VCH, gold.

Douglas, please would you be kind enough to give your source for the
arms of the Say family of Ickenham.

Philip

[John]

On Jan 12, 12:58 am, Philip Cheyney <philip.chey...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

From the 1634 visitation of Oxfordshire (harleian Society, Visitation
series, 5:252), the arms of Say of Blechingdon, Oxon, and Ickenham,
Middlesex:

Per pale azure and gules, three chevrons argent voided of the field

The same description appears in Burke's General Armory, which uses the
Oxon visitation as its source.

[Philip Cheyney]

On Jan 12, 5:44 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>From the 1634 visitation of Oxfordshire (harleian Society, Visitation
>series, 5:252), the arms of Say of Blechingdon, Oxon, and Ickenham,
>Middlesex:

>Per pale azure and gules, three chevrons argent voided of the field

Very many thanks.

I note that (a) these arms are not the same as Speaker Say's;

(b) the visitation was made some hundred and fifty years after Speaker
Say's death and there is no mention of these arms in the visitations
of 1574 or 1566;

(c) there are no other quarters added, which suggests (but not
strongly) that the arms were fairly new;

and (d) there is no evidence of these arms in any of the sources used
by the Dictionary of British Arms (i.e. before 1530).

Philip

[Douglas Richardson]

Philip ~

The Say pedigree in Middlesex Pedigrees gives the impression that the
Say family of Ickenham, Middlesex was claiming kinship to Sir John Say
the Speaker. The two families were probably related to one another.
My guess, though, is that that the exact connection between the two
families had been forgotten by the time the Middlesex pedigree was
compiled.

John Say, of Hinwick (in Poddington), Bedfordshire, who is the
presumptive common ancestor of the two families, died testate shortly
before 1447, but I believe his will no longer exists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Jan 12, 11:51 am, Philip Cheyney <philip.chey...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2012 there was a lengthy discussion on the newsgroup regarding the parentage of Sir John Say, of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire (died 1478). Sir John held a variety of responsible posts in his long career in public service: Coroner of the Marshalsea, Yeoman of the Chamber & Crown, Keeper of Westminster Palace, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Privy Councillor, Under Treasurer of England, Keeper of the Great Wardrobe, and Speaker of the House of Commons. By her first marriage to Frederick Tilney, Sir John Say's wife, Elizabeth

Cheyne, is better known as an ancestress of Queen Anne Boleyn.

I previously noted that Genealogist n.s. 7 (1890): 57 states that Sir John Say was the son of John Saye, of "Poldington," Bedfordshire, and his wife, Maud. Unfortunately, no documentation was provided at the time for that statement.

In 2012 I located a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1447 whereby a John Robberdes and his wife, Alice, widow and executrix of John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire sued William Gawge, of Hinwick (in Poddington), Bedfordshire regarding a bond which the said Gawge made with John Say in 1439, which was still unpaid. As pointed out by Janet Wolfe, the 1447 lawsuit indicates that John Say, of Poddington, was still alive 20 April 1442. I've copied an abstract of the 1447 lawsuit below. The original may be viewed at the following weblinks kindly provided by Janet Wolfe:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1467.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm

I felt reasonably certain that I had located the correct father of Sir John Say (died 1478), but I've wanted see better evidence.

Recently I located yet another lawsuit dated 1448 involving the same John Robberdes and his wife, Alice. In this new lawsuit, John Robbardes [sic] & Alice his wife, widow and executrix of John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, late Citizen and grocer of London, sued Roger Wylde, of Yelden, Bedfordshire, husbandman in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £40. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/748, image 1675d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/bCP40no748dorses/IMG_1675.htm).

From this new lawsuit, we learn that John Say, Alice Robbardes' former husband, was a Citizen and grocer of London, in addition to his being of Poddington, Bedfordshire. Assuming we have the correct parentage of Sir John Say identified, this new information that John Say, of Poddington, was a London citizen and grocer, surely explains why Sir John Say's known brother, Master William Say, Dean of St. Paul's, was stated to be of "Aldgate Without" in London in 1425 when he entered Winchester School as a young man in 1425. The reason is because their father, John Say, of Poddington, was a London resident.

Besides the new lawsuit, I've located two additional pieces of evidence concerning John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, Citizen and grocer of London. The first record is a fine involving John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire dated 1408. An abstract of the fine is copied further below. The second record concerns John Say, grocer, evidently of London, and is dated 1425:

In 1425 Henry Honyman, fishmonger and Katherine his wife, widow of John Aylesham, grocer issued an acquittance to John Say, grocer, and John Faryngdon, administrators of the goods and chattels of the said John Aylesham, on the receipt of 80 marks [see Thomas, Calendar of Plea and Memoranda Roll 1413–1437 (1943): 182].

One further comment. There is a pedigree of the Say family in Mundy, Middlesex Pedigrees (H.S.P. 65) (1914): 160–161. In that pedigree, Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons, is specifically identified as the brother a certain Hugh Say, whose wife is identified as ".... da. and heire of Robert Colebrooke." The Say pedigree can be viewed at the following weblink:

https://archive.org/stream/middlesexpedigre651914#page/160/mode/2up

I recently attempted to learn what I could regarding the Say-Colbroke couple. My research indicates that Robert Colbroke (or Colbrooke), ironmonger of London, occurs in 1423 and 1430. He is the plaintiff in two Common Pleas lawsuits in 1430. He died testate (see Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1437 below). He married Joan, daughter of Richard Wodecock. In 1434 Robert Colebroke's widow, Joan, married (as his 2nd of three wives) Sir Hugh Wyche, Alderman, Citizen, and mercer of London, who subsequently served as Mayor of London in 1461-2. Sir Hugh Wyche died in 1466. [see Wedgwood Hist. of Parliament 1 (1936): 945–946 (biog. of Hugh Wyche)].

It is certain that Robert Colbroke and his wife, Joan, had a daughter who married a Saye, as Robert Colbroke is specifically called great-grandfather in the 1517 will of a certain Hugh Say, of London, mercer. Hugh Say's will specifically states that Robert Colbroke was his father's mother's parent. But which Say male did Robert Colbroke's daughter marry?

If we trust the Middlesex pedigree, Miss Colbroke married Hugh Say, son of a William Say.

However, Vistations of London 1568, 1569–90 (H.S.P. 109-10) (1957): 99–100 includes yet another Say pedigree. It states the following:

"John Say of Podington in the cowntie of Bedford esquyre maried the doughter of Colbroke and had yssue Robert Saye. Robert Saye Sonne and heire of John Say had yssue Hugh Saye."

Once again we have a connection between the Say family of Poddington, Bedfordshire and the Colbroke family of London. But in this pedigree, Miss Colbroke is stated to have married "John Say of Podington" not Hugh Say.

There is a full transcript of the 1517 will of Hugh Say of London, mercer available online at the following weblink:

http://research-information.bristol.ac.uk/files/3021170/2011saywill.pdf

In the editorial comments which precede the transcript of the will, the editor indicates that Hugh Say the testator's father was probably the Robert Say who was Sir Hugh Wyche's apprentice and who followed him into the Mercers Company. I believe that is correct. This agrees with the Visitations of London pedigree.

If we accept that Hugh Say (the 1517 testator) was the grandson of John (or Hugh) Say, of Poddington, by his wife, Miss Colbroke, then the question arises is this John (or Hugh) Say the same person as John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, who was Grocer of London (living 1442), who left a widow, Alice, who remarried to John Robberdes (or Robbardes)? My guess is they are different men, possibly son and father. If that is the case, then I assume the John (or Hugh) Say with a Colbroke wife was younger than the John Say (living 1442) who left a widow, Alice. If the two men are son and father, it could mean that John Say (living 1442) may have had two sons named John, one who married Miss Colbroke and one who became the Speaker of the House of Commons. Having two sons of the same name is not unknown in the medieval period.

What ever the relationship between these two wings of the Say family is, it is clear from the Visitation of London that the family of Hugh Say (the 1517 testator) bore the same coat of arms as the family of Sir John Say (died 1478), who was Speaker of the House of Commons. And, both sets of family are alleged to be from Poddington, Bedfordshire. That much is clear. So Poddington, Bedfordshire would seem to be the ancestral home alright.

Beyond these scraps of information, I've also established that Robert Colbroke the ironmonger had another daughter and heiress, Eden, who married Arthur Ormesby, Esq. The will of Eden's husband, Arthur Ormesby, Esq., is dated 2 August 1467, proved 15 November 1468 (P.C.C., 25 Godyn). In his will, Arthur Ormesby specifically states that his wife, Eden, is the "daughter and heir of Robert Colbroke and Johanne his wife." Mention is also made of Eden's step-father, Sir Hugh Wyche. A full transcript of the will is published in Sussex Archaeological Collections and may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://archive.org/stream/surreyarchaeol43surr/surreyarchaeol43surr_djvu.txt

Elswhere I find that "Dame Eden Ormesby" is mention in an early Chancery proceeding dated 1465-83, which record I've copied below. Given that Eden (Colbroke) Ormesby was living c.1467, and that her father Robert Colbroke was living in 1423-30, I would have to guess that any sister of Eden's married to a Say was at least one generation later than John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, citizen and grocer of London, who occurs 1408, 1425, 1442, who left a widow Alice. Therefore the husband of the Colbroke daughter can not have been the mother of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. Sister-in-law perhaps, but certainly not his mother.

I still believe that John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, now identified as Citizen and grocer of London, is the father of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. Hopefully additional records can be located to prove this conclusively.

Finally, I might say that by calling Eden Ormesby a "dame" in her Chancery lawsuit, this means she had at least one other marriage to a knight.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +
1. Source: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_6_74.shtml#24; Special thanks go to Chris Phillips for this abstract.

Feet of Fine

CP 25/1/6/74, number 24.
County: Bedfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from the Purification of the Blessed Mary, 9 Henry [IV] [9 February 1408].
Parties: John Say of Podyngton' and Richard Huet, clerk, querents, and William Parker of Sharnebrook and Joan, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 1 messuage and 60 acres of land in Hynwyk.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: William and Joan have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of Richard, as those which Richard and John have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Joan to John and Richard and the heirs of Richard for ever.
For this: John and Richard have given them 20 marks of silver.

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: John Say, Richard Hewett, William Parker, Joan Parker
Places: Podington, Sharnbrook, Hinwick (in Podington)

2. In 1437 Robert Clopton, Citizen and draper of London, and Richard Marchall, Citizen and ironmonger of London, executors of the will of Robert Colbroke, late Citizen and ironmonger of London, and Hugh Wyche, Citizen and mercer of London, and Joan his wife, who was the wife of Robert Colbroke, Citizen and Ironmonger of London, [and] co-executrix with the said Robert Clopton and Richard of the said will, sued Stephen Sengester, Gent., of Kempsyng, Kent, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 40s.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/705, image 1133d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no705/bCP40no705dorses/IMG_1133.htm).

3. Source: Online Discovery catalogue

Reference: C 1/31/3
Description:
Short title: Eden v The Mayor of London.
Plaintiffs: Dame Eden Ormesby, late the wife of Arthur Ormesby.
Defendants: The mayor and sheriffs of London.
Subject: Action brought by [Simon Hardby] on a bond: detention of documents by the wife of Matthew Philip, late the wife of William Lemyng, or the executors of the said Lemyng. Petition for writ of `certiorari.': London..
SFP
Date: 1465-1471, or perhaps 1480-1483
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post today, I said the following:

"Therefore the husband of the Colbroke daughter can not have been the mother of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. Sister-in-law perhaps, but certainly not his mother."

I meant to say: "Therefore the Colbroke daughter (wife of Hugh or John Say) can not have been the mother of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. She was perhaps his sister-in-law, but certainly not his mother."

I've located a couple more references to Eden Colbroke, wife of Athur Ormesby, Esq. In the first item below, Arthur Ormesby and his wife, Iden [sic], are plaintiffs in a Chancery lawsuit.

The second item below is a reference to an inquisition post mortem for Eden (Colbroke) Ormesby, here she is called Edith Ormesby. If Eden Ormesby died without issue (as I think probable), then her heir would be her nephew Robert Say or great-nephew, Hugh Say the testator of 1517. This should be revealed in her inquisition post mortem.

There is brief note on the Ormesby family in Notes and Queries, 10th Series, 8 (1907): 389, which may be read at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=PmEEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389

Among other things, the note states that the inquisition of Edith [sic] Ormsby was taken 20 Nov. 1480.

The third and fourth items below concern Robert Colbroke, ironmonger. They are dated 1421 and 1422. Robert Colbroke and his wife, Joan Wodecock, were the parents of two daughters, ____ (wife of Hugh or John Say) and Eden (wife of Arthur Ormesby, Esq.).

In the book, Columbus Myth: Did Men of Bristol reach America before Columbus? (1991): 112, we learn that Sir Hugh Wyche took on an apprentice named Robert Say in 1452, which Robert subsequently became a full member of the Mercers Company. I believe this Robert Say is the young grandson of Robert Colbroke and his wife, Joan Wodecock. If we make sense of the respective Say pedigrees in the Visitations of Middlesex and London, this Robert Say would presumably be a nephew of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons.

The same book and page states that Sir Hugh Wyche (husband of Joan Wodecock, widow of Robert Colbroke) was "closely associated" with Sir John Say. If I understand the pedigrees correctly, then Sir John Say's brother (be it Hugh or John) was married to Sir Hugh Wyche's Colbroke step-daughter.

Finally, I should mention that there is a Ralph Say, Citizen and grocer of London, who occurs in the same time period as John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, who was Citizen and grocer of London. I presume they are near related. Ralph Say, the London grocer, occurs as early as 1406. See the following weblink:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/chamberlain-roger

The Bede Roll of the Fraternity of St Nicholas, ed. NW James and VA James (London, 2004), pp. 1-26 includes references in footnotes to both Ralph Say and his wife, Katherine:

"Probably the Ralph Say, citizen and grocer, with property in St Martin Pomeroy and St Swithin parishes. He left a will (no probate) of 28 November 1447 (Guildhall MS 9171/4, f. 264r). His widow Katherine appears among admissions before 1449 (20) and deaths for 1457 (53)."

"Among deaths for 1457 (53). Presumably the Katherine Say, widow of Ralph Say, with property in St Antholin and St Lawrence Jewry, who appears among deaths before 1448 (25). She requested burial with her late husband in the church of St Antholin by her will of 29 October 1457, proved 15 March 1458 (Guildhall MS 9171/5, f. 240r)." END OF QUOTE.

It would appear that Ralph Say and his widow, Katherine, both left wills. If Ralph Say is near related to Sir John Say as I suspect, he is probably named in Ralph Say's will.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +

1. Source: Online Discovery catalogue

Reference: C 1/31/118
Description:
Short title: Ormesby v Ryplyngham.
Plaintiffs: Arthur Ormesby and Iden his wife, John Stokker, John Broker, Robert Cotes, Blaunche Northamton, Rose Northamton, and Elizabeth Northamton.
Defendants: Thomas Ryplyngham, John Metheley, and John Hawe, arbitrators.
Subject: Breach of promise to make an award in writing between complainants and Thomas Batter and Isabel his wife, relative to a tenement called the `Lyon Keye,' in St Botolph beside Billingsgate. London

Date: 1465-1471, or perhaps 1480-1483
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

2. Source: Online Discovery catalogue

Reference: C 140/75/30
Description: Chancery: Inquisitions Post Mortem, Series I, Edward IV
Ormesby, Edith Lincs
Date: 20 Edw IV

Held by: The National Archives, Kew

3. Source: Online Discovery catalogue

Reference: ACC/0312/75
Title: Feoffment by John Salle clerk, Thomas atte Hyde of South Stoke Co. Oxon and Richard Holm, citizen and Woolmonger to William Sevenoke, grocer, Robert Colbroke, ironmonger and John Payable, mercer of lands called Canuteloneffeld in Herfeld, Rogers atte Wode, Hilles the Lord and Briddeslond etc. Boundaries given.
Description:
3 seals.
Date: 15 Dec. 9 Hen.V. 1421
Held by: London Metropolitan Archives: City of London, not available at The National Archives

4. Source: Online Discovery catalogue

Reference: ACC/0312/79
Title: Confirmation of feoffment by William Sevenoke, grocer, Robert Colbroke, ironmonger, John Payable, merchant, all citizens of London, to William Brekespere, citizen and merchant of London and Alianor his wife, of the lands, tenements, etc. which the 1st parties had of John Salle, clerk, Thomas atte Hyde of South Stoke parish in Oxon and Richard Holm citizen and woolmonger of London by deed of 15th Dec. 9 Hen.V. Dated at Harefield 29 July 10 Hen.V. [1422].
Description:
Witnesses named. Chirograph indenture. No signatures. 3 seals appended. [?merchants' marks].
Date: 29 July 10 Hen.V. 1422
Held by: London Metropolitan Archives: City of London, not available at The National Archives

[Nathan Murphy]

Hi Doug,

Here are a few links and film numbers that might prove useful:

> In the book, Columbus Myth: Did Men of Bristol reach America before Columbus? (1991): 112, we learn that Sir Hugh Wyche took on an apprentice named Robert Say in 1452, which Robert subsequently became a full member of the Mercers Company.

Robert Say's 1452/3 apprenticeship:
http://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=mrc&event_id=MCEB2515

Robert Say, Master, Mercer's Co., accepting an apprentice in 1479:
http://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=mrc&event_id=MCEB2149

> "Probably the Ralph Say, citizen and grocer, with property in St Martin Pomeroy and St Swithin parishes. He left a will (no probate) of 28 November 1447 (Guildhall MS 9171/4, f. 264r). His widow Katherine appears among admissions before 1449 (20) and deaths for 1457 (53)."
>
> "Among deaths for 1457 (53). Presumably the Katherine Say, widow of Ralph Say, with property in St Antholin and St Lawrence Jewry, who appears among deaths before 1448 (25). She requested burial with her late husband in the church of St Antholin by her will of 29 October 1457, proved 15 March 1458 (Guildhall MS 9171/5, f. 240r)." END OF QUOTE.

These Guildhall probate references correspond to the Commissary Court of London (London Division). They should both appear on FHL Microfilm 94093 in volumes 4 and 5 of the registered copy wills: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/283866

Best,

Nathan

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Nathan - Thanks for posting this information. Much appreciated. Best always, Douglas Richardson