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OT: Edward III Descents for Earl Haig/Noel Coward thru Veitch
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Brad Verity
Apr 15, 2014, 11:51:27 AM4/15/14
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Many thanks to Peter de Lorial, Leo van de Pas, and especially to John Higgins, for adding Edward III lines to the posted ancestry of Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax (b. 1926), specifically through her mother Marjory Morse Perkins (1900-1992). I didn't have Marjory's ancestry in my database, except for her parents, and John has been very helpful, and sent to me offlist some Veitch & Stewart of Traquair material & links so that I can get started.
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:02:35 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Expanding upon Brad's lengthy list, I can provide two additional Edward III descents for Alison Trappes-Lomax - both through her mother Marjory Emily Morse, for whom no such descents had previously been noted.
> John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset [V2 in Bard's part 2 post] and his wife Margaret Holand had a daughter MM3
> MM3. Joan Beaufort (d. 15.VII.1445); m. (1) James I, K. of Scotland (before 1.VIII.1394-21.II.1437)
> MM4. James II, K. of Scotland (16.X.1430-3.VIII.1460); m. 2.VII.1449 Marie of Geldern
> MM5. Mary Stewart (b. 1451, d. V.1488); m. (2) before IV.1474 (his 2nd) James Hamilton, 1st Lord Hamilton (d. 16.XI.1479)
> MM6. Elizabeth Hamilton (d. after IV.1531); m. contract 9.IV.1494 (his 2nd) Matthew Stuart, 11th Earl of Lennox (d. 9.IX.1513)
> MM7. Margaret Stewart; m. (1) before 13.II.1508/9 (his 2nd of 3) (div. before 25.X.1515) John Fleming, 2nd Lord Fleming (d. 1.XI.1524)
> MM8. Margaret Fleming; m. ca. 24.XI.1529 (his 1st of 3) Patrick Murray of Falahill, Laird of Philiphaugh (d. 1577)
> MM9. Katherine Murray (b. after 1529, d. after 22.V.1594); m. 1552 (his 2nd) James Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan (b. ca. 1520, d. 1594)
> MM10. Nicholas/Nicola Somerville; m. contract 13.IV.1582 Walter Stewart, 1st Lord Blantyre (d. 8.III.1617)
> MM11. William Stewart, 2nd Lord Blantyre (d. 29.XI.1638); m. Helen Scott of Ardross [see NN12 below]
> MM12. Margaret Stewart (d. 1662); m. contract XII.1644/I.1645 (his 1st) John Swinton, 23rd of that Ilk (d. 1679)
> MM13. John Swinton, 25th of that Ilk (d. 1723); m. (1) Sarah Welch of London
> MM14. Frances Swinton; m. Rev. Henry Veitch, minister of Swinton, Berwickshire
The above line MM, as well as its companion line NN, are accurate, but fail for the 1st Earl Haig and for Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax at this generation. There is an entry for Rev. Henry Veitch in the 'Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae', which states "He marr. (1) 29th June 1721, Martha, daugh. of John Gardner, merchant burgess of Edinburgh, and had issue--William, died 1726; John, writer, Edinburgh, ancestor of the Eliock family; James, tenant in Mersington: (2) 25th April 1728, Frances (died 14th Sept. 1741), only surviving child of Sir John Swinton of that Ilk by his first wife, Sarah Welsh, and had issue--Frances, born 26th Aug. 1733 (mart. 29th Oct. 1751, John Watson of Overmains)":
https://archive.org/stream/fastiecclesiu02scotuoft#page/n71/mode/2up
This is borne out by Edinburgh Parish Registers. "Henry Veatch" and "Martha Gardner" were married 29 June 1721 at St Cuthbert Church, Edinburgh:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY9K-NJW
The marriage of "Mr. Henry Veitch, minister at Swinton" and "Mrs. Frances Swinton, d. of late Sir John S. of that Ilk" on "14 Apr. 1728 in S.E. p." appears in the Midlothian (Edinburgh), Scotland, Extracted Parish Records database thru Ancestry.com
And the christening of "Frances Veatch" daughter of "Henry Veatch" on 26 August 1733 at Swinton and Simprin, Berwick, Scotland:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTB4-13D
With the Edward III descents through Frances Swinton not applicable, that just leaves one certain - and probably two - lines of descent from that monarch for the 1st Earl Haig and Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax. They are through Stewart of Traquair and the Veitch families, and the 1st Earl and Alison share these lines with playwright Sir Noel Coward.
Noel Coward's royal line appears in Gary Boyd Roberts's RD500 & RD600. The main source cited is a Veitch pedigree in Philip Hoare's 'Sir Noel Coward: A Biography' (1996). I want to thank John Higgins for sending me a pdf of the pedigree. A portion of the pedigree can be viewed online thru Google Books Preview, here:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=BEOqd8OMleMC&pg=PP13&dq=Lt.+Col.+Henry+Veitch+Zepherina&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JT9NU4jpAcqwygGRm4CIAQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lt.%20Col.%20Henry%20Veitch%20Zepherina&f=false
Unfortunately, Hoare doesn't provide sources for his pedigree, but he does include details, such as the marriage of Alexander Veitch, merchant (d. 1696), grandfather of James Veitch, Lord Eliock, to Christian Tait, that don't appear in any other source, so presumably Hoare did spend some time researching this pedigree.
Other sources on the Veitch family are the accounts in Burke's Landed Gentry, the most recent being in the 104th Edition (1924). As that volume was unavailable to me in Vancouver, I used the previous one in the 103rd Edition (1921). There is also a decent account of the family by James Walter Buchan in his 'A History of Peeblesshire' Volume 3 (1927), p. 440, which is only available snippet view thru Google Books, but has been transcribed by the genealogy website The Tweedie Archive, here:
http://164.177.159.59/html/history_Peeblesshire_1925_Dawyck.htm
The two lines from Edward III are as follows.
Edward III had a son
A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
A2) John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373-1410) m. Lady Margaret Holland (1383-1439, descended from Edward I), and had
A3) Lady Joan Beaufort (c.1403-1445) m. 2) Sir James Stewart of Lorn (c.1383-1451), and had
A4) James Stewart, 1st Earl of Buchan (1442-1499) = Margaret Murray, and had
A5) James Stewart, 1st Laird of Traquair, illegit. (c.1483-1513) m. Katherine Rutherford, and had
A6) William Stewart, 2nd Laird of Traquair (d. aft.1538) m. Christian Hay, and had
A7) James Stewart, 6th Laird of Traquair (d. 1607) m. Katherine Ker (d. 1606), and had 2 daus A8 & B8 (see below)
A8) Janet Stewart m. John Veitch of Dawyck Castle (d. by 1606), and had
A9) Alexander Veitch of Nether Horsburgh (c.1600-aft.1645) m. 2) Margaret Scott (see B10 below), and had
A10) William Veitch of Redpath (d. bef.1721)* m. ???, and had
A11) Rev. Henry Veitch of Swinton (c.1684-1753) m. 1) Martha Gardner (d. by 1728), and had
A12) John Veitch of Torpichen (b. 1722) m. 2) Elizabeth Carse**, and had
A13) Hugh Forester Veitch of Stewartfield House (1777-1837) m. Mary Robertson (1786-1870), and had
A14) Rachel Mackerras Veitch (1820-1879) m. John Haig of Cameron Bridge House (1802-1878), and had 2 sons
A15A) Douglas Haig, 1st Earl Haig (1861-1928)
A15B) William Henry Haig of Cameron Bridge House (1841-1884) m. Emily Martha Newman (1850-1929), and had
A16) Annabel Marjory Haig (1873-1955) m. Arthur Francis Morse of The Mead (1872-1959), and had
A17) Marjory Emily Morse (1900-1992) m. George Algernon Perkins of Bure House (1896-1980, descended from Henry IV), and had
A18) Alison Marjorie Gundrede Perkins (b. 1926) m. Stephen Richard Trappes-Lomax (1913-1982, descended from Charles II)
B8) Margaret Stewart (d. 1625) m. William Burnet of Barns (c.1557-aft.1664), and had
B9) Christian Burnet m. John Scott of Hundleshope (d. c.1625), and had
B10) Margaret Scott (d. 1644) m. Alexander Veitch of Nether Horsburgh (see A9 above)
*William Veitch of Redpath (Generation A10) above is by far the weakest link in the line of descent. Presumably he was the William Veitch referenced in this transaction from 6 April 1703
"Extract charge to Robert, Viscount of Oxfuird, to infeft and seise William Veitch in Ridpath [Redpath] in the lands of Scarlaw, parish of Cranshaws, sheriffdom of Berwick, lands of Newbigging and Swanselaw, parish of Innerweek [Innerwick] in constabulary of Haddington and sheriffdom of Edinburgh, apprised from Christopher Cokburne [Cockburn] of Chousley [Choicelee]. With scroll charter of adjudication":
http://www.riddy.co.uk/Pages/Wills/Pages/OCRedpath.html
Buchan in 1927 states that "William, who was in Redpath" was the third and youngest son of Alexander Veitch of Nether Horsburgh, by his 1st wife Janet Geddes, whom he married in December 1623. BLG 1921 states that William Veitch of Redpath was "the eldest son of the second marriage". If William was of the first marriage, he had to have been born by 1635, for in October of that year his father Alexander Veitch married secondly Margaret Scott.
William's son Rev. Henry Veitch was aged 69 at his 1753 death, so born about 1684, when William was at least age 50, if born to the first marriage of Alexander Veitch to Janet Geddes. We also have no primary evidence from the 17th/18th century that William Veitch of Redpath was the son of Alexander Veitch, only the 20th century account of Buchan and BLG.
Philip Hoare in his 1996 Veitch pedigree, doesn't specify which wife of Alexander Veitch was the mother of the three sons he assigns to him: William (d. 1721), Gavin, and Alexander (d. 1691). There is solid evidence that William Veitch of Redpath and Alexander Veitch of Lyne, merchant and burgess of Peebles (d. 1691) were brothers.
Alexander Veitch of Lyne had a son William Veitch of Eliock House (1671-1747), who became a writer to H.M. Signet:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=CFM8AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=alexander+veitch+of+lyne,+merchant+and+burgess+of+peebles&source=bl&ots=Vd0Vkfqgsk&sig=qWiafLjaTSQhQ-_RUnPtnV6_vew&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rkpNU4KlAbKkyAGu1YD4BQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=alexander%20veitch%20of%20lyne%2C%20merchant%20and%20burgess%20of%20peebles&f=false
William Veitch of Eliock House in turn had a son James Veitch, Lord Eliock (1712-1793), who has a bio in HOP, here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/veitch-james-1712-93
"Lord Eliock died, unmarried, 1st July, 1793. He was a great stickler for the rights of primogeniture, and, although Colonel Veitch was almost like a son to him, he put first in the entail a certain James Veitch, because he was a degree nearer to him in kinship, this James Veitch being a first cousin's son, while Colonel Henry Veitch was a second cousin's son":
https://archive.org/stream/folkloreandgene00wilsgoog#page/n244/mode/2up
[Many thanks to John Higgins, for bringing my attention to the above source]
Col. Henry Veitch (1761-1838), who inherited Eliock House, was the eldest son of John Veitch of Torpichen (Generation A12 above), and John Veitch was indeed a second cousin of Lord Eliock, if their grandfathers William Veitch of Redpath and Alexander Veitch, merchant of Peebles, were brothers, as Philip Hoare has them in his 1996 pedigree.
However, this does leave a bit of chronological difficulty. If the merchant Alexander Veitch (d. 1691) was born of the first marriage of Alexander Veitch of Horsburgh (Generation A9 above) to Janet Geddes, as the Veitch article in BLG 1921, and Buchan in 1927, suggest, then he was born about 1625. Yet his son William Veitch of Eliock House was not born until 1671, almost 50 years later. It's not uncommon for men in the 17th-century to father sons in their 40s and 50s, but it is also a possibility that the brothers Alexander Veitch of Peebles (d. 1691) and William Veitch of Redpath (d. by 1721) were grandsons, not sons, of Alexander Veitch of Horsburgh (living 1645). Still, there's no need to create an extra generation if there is no other evidence for one. Given that Rev. Henry Veitch of Swinton was born a dozen years after his first cousin William Veitch of Eliock House, I lean toward the minister's father William Veitch of Redpath being a son of Alexander Veitch's second marriage to Margaret Scott, as BLG 1921 states, so born after 1635.
This generation clearly warrants much further research. And as Sir Noel Coward descends from Robert Veitch of Bromley (per Hoare in 1996), apparently another son of William Veitch of Redpath, and so brother to Rev. Henry Veitch of Swinton (Generation A11 above), hopefully more evidence will surface.
**The other weak generation in this line of descent is John Veitch "a writer in Edinburgh" as Buchan states in 1927. The only Hugh Veitch, son of John Veitch who appears in the IGI in the proper time period is "Hugh Forester Veitch", born 28 July 1777, christened 26 August 1777 at Torpichen, West Lothian. This Hugh was the youngest of the 8 sons of John Veitch christened at Torpichen - Henry in 1761 (Presumably Col. Henry Veitch who inherited Eliock House from Lord Eliock in 1793), Robert in 1762, another Robert in 1764, William in 1766, Andrew in 1768, James in 1769, Alexander in 1775, and Hugh. A mother, Elizabeth Carse, is named only for Alexander and Hugh. Given that, plus the gap of six years between the christenings of the two youngest sons and their elder brothers, it's likely that Elizabeth Carse was the second wife of John Veitch:
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AVeitch~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AC11671-2
I don't know how to search for 17th and 18th century wills in Scotland, but hopefully some exist for the Veitch family which would help to clarify relationships and solidify the line of descent. But absent those, I'm fairly confident of the Edward III line for the 1st Earl Haig, Sir Noel Coward & Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax as presented above.
> The family of Haig mentioned above is covered extensively (under Haig of Bemersyde and associated families) in Burke's Landed Gentry. Tracing that family back would suggest that there's an additional Edward III descent here, but there's a problem with the line.
> The supposed line is as follows:
> OO3. [same as MM3] Joan Beaufort (d. 15.VII.1445); m. (2) before 21.IX.1439 James Stewart, "the Black Knight of Lorn"
> OO4. James Stewart, 1st Earl of Buchan (d. 1497-1500); (unm.) Margaret Murray
> OO5. Elizabeth Stewart; m. (1) 1507 Mungo Home of Ersiltoun (d. 1513)
> OO6. Isobel Home; m. William Haig, 13th of Bemersyde (d. 9.IX.1513, battle of Flodden)
> OO7. Robert Haig, 14th of Bemersyde; m. Barbara Spottiswoode
> The problem in the line is at OO6 - Isobel Home. Although SP and various Burke's publications indicate that Isobel is the daughter of Mungo Home of Ersiltoun and Elizabeth Stewart, Brad Verity has pointed out (in an offline exchange of posts) that this is chronologically impossible. If Isobel is indeed of this particular Home family, she is probably the sister, rather than the daughter, of Mungo Home - and thus loses the Edward III descent.
Just to elaborate on to what John pointed out above, William Haig of Bemersyde, husband of Isobel Home (Generation OO6 above), was killed at the battle of Flodden in 1513, and their son Robert Haig first appears in record in January 1519, raiding his neighbour's lands, so he was born by 1503 at the latest, and probably a few years earlier:
https://archive.org/stream/haigsofbemersyde00russuoft#page/106/mode/2up
Mungo Home and Elizabeth Stewart were married, before 11 March 1507, according to Scots Peerage:
http://archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun04pauluoft#page/468/mode/2up
But they were not married too much before that date, on which Mungo received payment for the marriage contract. Agnes Stewart, the other daughter of the 1st Earl of Buchan and his mistress Margaret Murray, was married to her first husband the 2nd Earl of Bothwell in 1511, and had borne James IV's illegitimate daughter Lady Janet Stewart a couple years before, about 1508. These dates are consistent with the chronology for Elizabeth Stewart and Mungo Home, who received sasine of his father's lands in 1493, the year of his father's death. I'm not certain how old a man had to be in Scotland to receive sasine, but I'm guessing eighteen years old. The marriage contract of Mungo's parents was dated 20 March 1472, and if he was born a year or so later, he was about age twenty at his father's death. Mungo appears to have died in 1509/10, for his son Sir John Home had sasine of his father's lands, which had been in the hands of the King for thirteen years, in July 1523, and had sasine of his father's barony, which had been in the hands of the King for 18 years, in June 1527. If John was about age 17/18 when he had sasine in 1523, and age 21 when he received the barony in 1527, he was born about 1505/6. This was just about a year and a half before Mungo received payment for the marriage contract. Mungo received the barony of Ersiltoun from James IV in March 1505/6, and I would imagine this grant was around the time of, or shortly following, his marriage to the king's kinswoman Elizabeth Stewart of Buchan. It's worthwhile to note that James IV's affair with Elizabeth's sister Agnes Stewart likely began around this time as well.
So it is chronologically impossible for Isabel Home, wife of William Haig, who was herself a mother by 1503, to have been a daughter of the Mungo Home marriage to Elizabeth Stewart. Given that Mungo himself could not have been born prior to 1472, Isabel could not have been his daughter by an earlier marriage either. Likely she was his sister, as the chronology works well for her, like Mungo, to have been born in the 1470s.
Once more, my thanks to John Higgins for his tremendous help with these complicated Scottish lines.
Cheers, ----Brad
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:02:35 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Expanding upon Brad's lengthy list, I can provide two additional Edward III descents for Alison Trappes-Lomax - both through her mother Marjory Emily Morse, for whom no such descents had previously been noted.
> John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset [V2 in Bard's part 2 post] and his wife Margaret Holand had a daughter MM3
> MM3. Joan Beaufort (d. 15.VII.1445); m. (1) James I, K. of Scotland (before 1.VIII.1394-21.II.1437)
> MM4. James II, K. of Scotland (16.X.1430-3.VIII.1460); m. 2.VII.1449 Marie of Geldern
> MM5. Mary Stewart (b. 1451, d. V.1488); m. (2) before IV.1474 (his 2nd) James Hamilton, 1st Lord Hamilton (d. 16.XI.1479)
> MM6. Elizabeth Hamilton (d. after IV.1531); m. contract 9.IV.1494 (his 2nd) Matthew Stuart, 11th Earl of Lennox (d. 9.IX.1513)
> MM7. Margaret Stewart; m. (1) before 13.II.1508/9 (his 2nd of 3) (div. before 25.X.1515) John Fleming, 2nd Lord Fleming (d. 1.XI.1524)
> MM8. Margaret Fleming; m. ca. 24.XI.1529 (his 1st of 3) Patrick Murray of Falahill, Laird of Philiphaugh (d. 1577)
> MM9. Katherine Murray (b. after 1529, d. after 22.V.1594); m. 1552 (his 2nd) James Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan (b. ca. 1520, d. 1594)
> MM10. Nicholas/Nicola Somerville; m. contract 13.IV.1582 Walter Stewart, 1st Lord Blantyre (d. 8.III.1617)
> MM11. William Stewart, 2nd Lord Blantyre (d. 29.XI.1638); m. Helen Scott of Ardross [see NN12 below]
> MM12. Margaret Stewart (d. 1662); m. contract XII.1644/I.1645 (his 1st) John Swinton, 23rd of that Ilk (d. 1679)
> MM13. John Swinton, 25th of that Ilk (d. 1723); m. (1) Sarah Welch of London
> MM14. Frances Swinton; m. Rev. Henry Veitch, minister of Swinton, Berwickshire
The above line MM, as well as its companion line NN, are accurate, but fail for the 1st Earl Haig and for Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax at this generation. There is an entry for Rev. Henry Veitch in the 'Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae', which states "He marr. (1) 29th June 1721, Martha, daugh. of John Gardner, merchant burgess of Edinburgh, and had issue--William, died 1726; John, writer, Edinburgh, ancestor of the Eliock family; James, tenant in Mersington: (2) 25th April 1728, Frances (died 14th Sept. 1741), only surviving child of Sir John Swinton of that Ilk by his first wife, Sarah Welsh, and had issue--Frances, born 26th Aug. 1733 (mart. 29th Oct. 1751, John Watson of Overmains)":
https://archive.org/stream/fastiecclesiu02scotuoft#page/n71/mode/2up
This is borne out by Edinburgh Parish Registers. "Henry Veatch" and "Martha Gardner" were married 29 June 1721 at St Cuthbert Church, Edinburgh:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY9K-NJW
The marriage of "Mr. Henry Veitch, minister at Swinton" and "Mrs. Frances Swinton, d. of late Sir John S. of that Ilk" on "14 Apr. 1728 in S.E. p." appears in the Midlothian (Edinburgh), Scotland, Extracted Parish Records database thru Ancestry.com
And the christening of "Frances Veatch" daughter of "Henry Veatch" on 26 August 1733 at Swinton and Simprin, Berwick, Scotland:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTB4-13D
With the Edward III descents through Frances Swinton not applicable, that just leaves one certain - and probably two - lines of descent from that monarch for the 1st Earl Haig and Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax. They are through Stewart of Traquair and the Veitch families, and the 1st Earl and Alison share these lines with playwright Sir Noel Coward.
Noel Coward's royal line appears in Gary Boyd Roberts's RD500 & RD600. The main source cited is a Veitch pedigree in Philip Hoare's 'Sir Noel Coward: A Biography' (1996). I want to thank John Higgins for sending me a pdf of the pedigree. A portion of the pedigree can be viewed online thru Google Books Preview, here:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=BEOqd8OMleMC&pg=PP13&dq=Lt.+Col.+Henry+Veitch+Zepherina&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JT9NU4jpAcqwygGRm4CIAQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lt.%20Col.%20Henry%20Veitch%20Zepherina&f=false
Unfortunately, Hoare doesn't provide sources for his pedigree, but he does include details, such as the marriage of Alexander Veitch, merchant (d. 1696), grandfather of James Veitch, Lord Eliock, to Christian Tait, that don't appear in any other source, so presumably Hoare did spend some time researching this pedigree.
Other sources on the Veitch family are the accounts in Burke's Landed Gentry, the most recent being in the 104th Edition (1924). As that volume was unavailable to me in Vancouver, I used the previous one in the 103rd Edition (1921). There is also a decent account of the family by James Walter Buchan in his 'A History of Peeblesshire' Volume 3 (1927), p. 440, which is only available snippet view thru Google Books, but has been transcribed by the genealogy website The Tweedie Archive, here:
http://164.177.159.59/html/history_Peeblesshire_1925_Dawyck.htm
The two lines from Edward III are as follows.
Edward III had a son
A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
A2) John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373-1410) m. Lady Margaret Holland (1383-1439, descended from Edward I), and had
A3) Lady Joan Beaufort (c.1403-1445) m. 2) Sir James Stewart of Lorn (c.1383-1451), and had
A4) James Stewart, 1st Earl of Buchan (1442-1499) = Margaret Murray, and had
A5) James Stewart, 1st Laird of Traquair, illegit. (c.1483-1513) m. Katherine Rutherford, and had
A6) William Stewart, 2nd Laird of Traquair (d. aft.1538) m. Christian Hay, and had
A7) James Stewart, 6th Laird of Traquair (d. 1607) m. Katherine Ker (d. 1606), and had 2 daus A8 & B8 (see below)
A8) Janet Stewart m. John Veitch of Dawyck Castle (d. by 1606), and had
A9) Alexander Veitch of Nether Horsburgh (c.1600-aft.1645) m. 2) Margaret Scott (see B10 below), and had
A10) William Veitch of Redpath (d. bef.1721)* m. ???, and had
A11) Rev. Henry Veitch of Swinton (c.1684-1753) m. 1) Martha Gardner (d. by 1728), and had
A12) John Veitch of Torpichen (b. 1722) m. 2) Elizabeth Carse**, and had
A13) Hugh Forester Veitch of Stewartfield House (1777-1837) m. Mary Robertson (1786-1870), and had
A14) Rachel Mackerras Veitch (1820-1879) m. John Haig of Cameron Bridge House (1802-1878), and had 2 sons
A15A) Douglas Haig, 1st Earl Haig (1861-1928)
A15B) William Henry Haig of Cameron Bridge House (1841-1884) m. Emily Martha Newman (1850-1929), and had
A16) Annabel Marjory Haig (1873-1955) m. Arthur Francis Morse of The Mead (1872-1959), and had
A17) Marjory Emily Morse (1900-1992) m. George Algernon Perkins of Bure House (1896-1980, descended from Henry IV), and had
A18) Alison Marjorie Gundrede Perkins (b. 1926) m. Stephen Richard Trappes-Lomax (1913-1982, descended from Charles II)
B8) Margaret Stewart (d. 1625) m. William Burnet of Barns (c.1557-aft.1664), and had
B9) Christian Burnet m. John Scott of Hundleshope (d. c.1625), and had
B10) Margaret Scott (d. 1644) m. Alexander Veitch of Nether Horsburgh (see A9 above)
*William Veitch of Redpath (Generation A10) above is by far the weakest link in the line of descent. Presumably he was the William Veitch referenced in this transaction from 6 April 1703
"Extract charge to Robert, Viscount of Oxfuird, to infeft and seise William Veitch in Ridpath [Redpath] in the lands of Scarlaw, parish of Cranshaws, sheriffdom of Berwick, lands of Newbigging and Swanselaw, parish of Innerweek [Innerwick] in constabulary of Haddington and sheriffdom of Edinburgh, apprised from Christopher Cokburne [Cockburn] of Chousley [Choicelee]. With scroll charter of adjudication":
http://www.riddy.co.uk/Pages/Wills/Pages/OCRedpath.html
Buchan in 1927 states that "William, who was in Redpath" was the third and youngest son of Alexander Veitch of Nether Horsburgh, by his 1st wife Janet Geddes, whom he married in December 1623. BLG 1921 states that William Veitch of Redpath was "the eldest son of the second marriage". If William was of the first marriage, he had to have been born by 1635, for in October of that year his father Alexander Veitch married secondly Margaret Scott.
William's son Rev. Henry Veitch was aged 69 at his 1753 death, so born about 1684, when William was at least age 50, if born to the first marriage of Alexander Veitch to Janet Geddes. We also have no primary evidence from the 17th/18th century that William Veitch of Redpath was the son of Alexander Veitch, only the 20th century account of Buchan and BLG.
Philip Hoare in his 1996 Veitch pedigree, doesn't specify which wife of Alexander Veitch was the mother of the three sons he assigns to him: William (d. 1721), Gavin, and Alexander (d. 1691). There is solid evidence that William Veitch of Redpath and Alexander Veitch of Lyne, merchant and burgess of Peebles (d. 1691) were brothers.
Alexander Veitch of Lyne had a son William Veitch of Eliock House (1671-1747), who became a writer to H.M. Signet:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=CFM8AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=alexander+veitch+of+lyne,+merchant+and+burgess+of+peebles&source=bl&ots=Vd0Vkfqgsk&sig=qWiafLjaTSQhQ-_RUnPtnV6_vew&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rkpNU4KlAbKkyAGu1YD4BQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=alexander%20veitch%20of%20lyne%2C%20merchant%20and%20burgess%20of%20peebles&f=false
William Veitch of Eliock House in turn had a son James Veitch, Lord Eliock (1712-1793), who has a bio in HOP, here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/veitch-james-1712-93
"Lord Eliock died, unmarried, 1st July, 1793. He was a great stickler for the rights of primogeniture, and, although Colonel Veitch was almost like a son to him, he put first in the entail a certain James Veitch, because he was a degree nearer to him in kinship, this James Veitch being a first cousin's son, while Colonel Henry Veitch was a second cousin's son":
https://archive.org/stream/folkloreandgene00wilsgoog#page/n244/mode/2up
[Many thanks to John Higgins, for bringing my attention to the above source]
Col. Henry Veitch (1761-1838), who inherited Eliock House, was the eldest son of John Veitch of Torpichen (Generation A12 above), and John Veitch was indeed a second cousin of Lord Eliock, if their grandfathers William Veitch of Redpath and Alexander Veitch, merchant of Peebles, were brothers, as Philip Hoare has them in his 1996 pedigree.
However, this does leave a bit of chronological difficulty. If the merchant Alexander Veitch (d. 1691) was born of the first marriage of Alexander Veitch of Horsburgh (Generation A9 above) to Janet Geddes, as the Veitch article in BLG 1921, and Buchan in 1927, suggest, then he was born about 1625. Yet his son William Veitch of Eliock House was not born until 1671, almost 50 years later. It's not uncommon for men in the 17th-century to father sons in their 40s and 50s, but it is also a possibility that the brothers Alexander Veitch of Peebles (d. 1691) and William Veitch of Redpath (d. by 1721) were grandsons, not sons, of Alexander Veitch of Horsburgh (living 1645). Still, there's no need to create an extra generation if there is no other evidence for one. Given that Rev. Henry Veitch of Swinton was born a dozen years after his first cousin William Veitch of Eliock House, I lean toward the minister's father William Veitch of Redpath being a son of Alexander Veitch's second marriage to Margaret Scott, as BLG 1921 states, so born after 1635.
This generation clearly warrants much further research. And as Sir Noel Coward descends from Robert Veitch of Bromley (per Hoare in 1996), apparently another son of William Veitch of Redpath, and so brother to Rev. Henry Veitch of Swinton (Generation A11 above), hopefully more evidence will surface.
**The other weak generation in this line of descent is John Veitch "a writer in Edinburgh" as Buchan states in 1927. The only Hugh Veitch, son of John Veitch who appears in the IGI in the proper time period is "Hugh Forester Veitch", born 28 July 1777, christened 26 August 1777 at Torpichen, West Lothian. This Hugh was the youngest of the 8 sons of John Veitch christened at Torpichen - Henry in 1761 (Presumably Col. Henry Veitch who inherited Eliock House from Lord Eliock in 1793), Robert in 1762, another Robert in 1764, William in 1766, Andrew in 1768, James in 1769, Alexander in 1775, and Hugh. A mother, Elizabeth Carse, is named only for Alexander and Hugh. Given that, plus the gap of six years between the christenings of the two youngest sons and their elder brothers, it's likely that Elizabeth Carse was the second wife of John Veitch:
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AVeitch~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AC11671-2
I don't know how to search for 17th and 18th century wills in Scotland, but hopefully some exist for the Veitch family which would help to clarify relationships and solidify the line of descent. But absent those, I'm fairly confident of the Edward III line for the 1st Earl Haig, Sir Noel Coward & Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax as presented above.
> The family of Haig mentioned above is covered extensively (under Haig of Bemersyde and associated families) in Burke's Landed Gentry. Tracing that family back would suggest that there's an additional Edward III descent here, but there's a problem with the line.
> The supposed line is as follows:
> OO3. [same as MM3] Joan Beaufort (d. 15.VII.1445); m. (2) before 21.IX.1439 James Stewart, "the Black Knight of Lorn"
> OO4. James Stewart, 1st Earl of Buchan (d. 1497-1500); (unm.) Margaret Murray
> OO5. Elizabeth Stewart; m. (1) 1507 Mungo Home of Ersiltoun (d. 1513)
> OO6. Isobel Home; m. William Haig, 13th of Bemersyde (d. 9.IX.1513, battle of Flodden)
> OO7. Robert Haig, 14th of Bemersyde; m. Barbara Spottiswoode
> The problem in the line is at OO6 - Isobel Home. Although SP and various Burke's publications indicate that Isobel is the daughter of Mungo Home of Ersiltoun and Elizabeth Stewart, Brad Verity has pointed out (in an offline exchange of posts) that this is chronologically impossible. If Isobel is indeed of this particular Home family, she is probably the sister, rather than the daughter, of Mungo Home - and thus loses the Edward III descent.
Just to elaborate on to what John pointed out above, William Haig of Bemersyde, husband of Isobel Home (Generation OO6 above), was killed at the battle of Flodden in 1513, and their son Robert Haig first appears in record in January 1519, raiding his neighbour's lands, so he was born by 1503 at the latest, and probably a few years earlier:
https://archive.org/stream/haigsofbemersyde00russuoft#page/106/mode/2up
Mungo Home and Elizabeth Stewart were married, before 11 March 1507, according to Scots Peerage:
http://archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun04pauluoft#page/468/mode/2up
But they were not married too much before that date, on which Mungo received payment for the marriage contract. Agnes Stewart, the other daughter of the 1st Earl of Buchan and his mistress Margaret Murray, was married to her first husband the 2nd Earl of Bothwell in 1511, and had borne James IV's illegitimate daughter Lady Janet Stewart a couple years before, about 1508. These dates are consistent with the chronology for Elizabeth Stewart and Mungo Home, who received sasine of his father's lands in 1493, the year of his father's death. I'm not certain how old a man had to be in Scotland to receive sasine, but I'm guessing eighteen years old. The marriage contract of Mungo's parents was dated 20 March 1472, and if he was born a year or so later, he was about age twenty at his father's death. Mungo appears to have died in 1509/10, for his son Sir John Home had sasine of his father's lands, which had been in the hands of the King for thirteen years, in July 1523, and had sasine of his father's barony, which had been in the hands of the King for 18 years, in June 1527. If John was about age 17/18 when he had sasine in 1523, and age 21 when he received the barony in 1527, he was born about 1505/6. This was just about a year and a half before Mungo received payment for the marriage contract. Mungo received the barony of Ersiltoun from James IV in March 1505/6, and I would imagine this grant was around the time of, or shortly following, his marriage to the king's kinswoman Elizabeth Stewart of Buchan. It's worthwhile to note that James IV's affair with Elizabeth's sister Agnes Stewart likely began around this time as well.
So it is chronologically impossible for Isabel Home, wife of William Haig, who was herself a mother by 1503, to have been a daughter of the Mungo Home marriage to Elizabeth Stewart. Given that Mungo himself could not have been born prior to 1472, Isabel could not have been his daughter by an earlier marriage either. Likely she was his sister, as the chronology works well for her, like Mungo, to have been born in the 1470s.
Once more, my thanks to John Higgins for his tremendous help with these complicated Scottish lines.
Cheers, ----Brad
PDel...@aol.com
Apr 15, 2014, 12:12:23 PM4/15/14
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
You might also peruse the link below which gives you a little more on the
two Veitch marriages 1) Martha Gardner, 2) Frances Swinton, from which
descent from both.
http://www.swintonfamilysociety.org/web%20charts%20Jan%202005/Swint%20Ch.01-
3/SWINTON_Ch01D_Sh1.pdf
yours Aye,
Pg
PS I now have enough on the Harrisons to begin to create an ascendance,
which I will post, although off topic. It seems that the Harrisons are
connected to my family through several Cripps marriages - making me, and hundreds
of relations related, albeit distantly, to the fragrant Noel:))
In a message dated 15/04/2014 16:59:58 GMT Daylight Time, royaldescent@
Veitch's second !
and had sasine!
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject
and the body of the message
two Veitch marriages 1) Martha Gardner, 2) Frances Swinton, from which
descent from both.
http://www.swintonfamilysociety.org/web%20charts%20Jan%202005/Swint%20Ch.01-
3/SWINTON_Ch01D_Sh1.pdf
yours Aye,
Pg
PS I now have enough on the Harrisons to begin to create an ascendance,
which I will post, although off topic. It seems that the Harrisons are
connected to my family through several Cripps marriages - making me, and hundreds
of relations related, albeit distantly, to the fragrant Noel:))
In a message dated 15/04/2014 16:59:58 GMT Daylight Time, royaldescent@
of his father's barony, which had been in the hands of the King for 18
years, in June 1527. If John was about age 17/18 when he had sasine in 1523,
and age 21 when he received the barony in 1527, he was born about 1505/6.
This was just about a year and a half before Mungo received payment for the
marriage contract. Mungo received the barony of Ersiltoun from James IV in
March 1505/6, and I would imagine this grant was around the time of, or
shortly following, his marriage to the king's kinswoman Elizabeth Stewart of
Buchan. It's worthwhile to note that James IV's affair with Elizabeth's
sister Agnes Stewart likely began around this time as well.
So it is chronologically impossible for Isabel Home, wife of William Haig,
who was herself a mother by 1503, to have been a daughter of the Mungo
Home marriage to Elizabeth Stewart. Given that Mungo himself could not have
been born prior to 1472, Isabel could not have been his daughter by an
earlier marriage either. Likely she was his sister, as the chronology works well
for her, like Mungo, to have been born in the 1470s.
Once more, my thanks to John Higgins for his tremendous help with these
complicated Scottish lines.
Cheers, ----Brad
-------------------------------
years, in June 1527. If John was about age 17/18 when he had sasine in 1523,
and age 21 when he received the barony in 1527, he was born about 1505/6.
This was just about a year and a half before Mungo received payment for the
marriage contract. Mungo received the barony of Ersiltoun from James IV in
March 1505/6, and I would imagine this grant was around the time of, or
shortly following, his marriage to the king's kinswoman Elizabeth Stewart of
Buchan. It's worthwhile to note that James IV's affair with Elizabeth's
sister Agnes Stewart likely began around this time as well.
So it is chronologically impossible for Isabel Home, wife of William Haig,
who was herself a mother by 1503, to have been a daughter of the Mungo
Home marriage to Elizabeth Stewart. Given that Mungo himself could not have
been born prior to 1472, Isabel could not have been his daughter by an
earlier marriage either. Likely she was his sister, as the chronology works well
for her, like Mungo, to have been born in the 1470s.
Once more, my thanks to John Higgins for his tremendous help with these
complicated Scottish lines.
Cheers, ----Brad
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject
and the body of the message
al...@mindspring.com
Apr 15, 2014, 7:22:31 PM4/15/14
to
Great work as always, Brad, had one question:
lived to about 107?
B8) Margaret Stewart (d. 1625) m. William Burnet of Barns (c.1557-aft.1664)
Doug Smith
lived to about 107?
B8) Margaret Stewart (d. 1625) m. William Burnet of Barns (c.1557-aft.1664)
Brad Verity
Apr 15, 2014, 8:30:40 PM4/15/14
to
Yes, apparently William Burnet lived to a great age: "He was of immense stature, possessed of great bodily strength, and lived to the age--according to family tradition--of 107 years...In October 1643, William Burnet of Barns disposes certain lands to 'John Burnet, his eldest son and heir apparent, in liferent; and Mr. William Burnet, Treasurer-Clerk, eldest son of the said John, his heirs,' &c.--and in March 1664 he executed a deed of escheat and life rent in favour of 'William Burnet, Treasurer-Clerk, his oye' (or grandson)...William Burnet of Barns (the 'Hoolet') is stated in a MS. account of the family to have died in 1645, but appears to have been alive after that date. The exact time of his death is uncertain, he having made over the property to his son and grandson before his death":
https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalacco00burn#page/n23/mode/2up
Though it's very possible that the March 1664 deed referenced was either misdated, or misread, as a death date for William Burnet in 1645, in his late 80s, is far more realistic than him having lived to age 107.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
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