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C.P. Addition: Agnes de Ferrers, wife of Robert de Muscegros, Knt., and John Fitz Reynold, Knt., Lord Fitz Reynold
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celticp...@gmail.com
Sep 25, 2018, 4:28:40 PM9/25/18
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 307–310 (sub Ferrers), chart foll. 320 (Ferrers-Muscegros ped.) includes a good account of John de Ferrers, Knt., 1st Lord Ferrers of Chartley (died 1312). Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married, between 2 Feb. 1297/8 and 13 Sept. 1300, Hawise, daughter and heiress of Sir Robert de Muscegros, of Stowell, Norton, and Charlton, Somerset, Kemerton and Boddington, co. Gloucester, Hampstead and Aldworth, Berkshire, by his wife, Agnes. She was widow of William de Mortemer, of Bridgwater, Milverton, and Odcombe, Somerset, Crendon, Bucks, &c. (a younger son of Sir Roger de Mortemer, of Wigmore, co. Hereford) who died s.p. shortly before 30 June 1297, but this marriage had not been consummated." END OF QUOTE.
On page 308, footnote c, the following comment is made concerning Hawise de Muscegros' alleged mother, Agnes:
"According to the usual account, this Agnes was da. of William, Earl of Derby, by his second wife, Margaret de Quency. This is obviously impossible, for it would make John [de Ferrers] and Hawise [de Muscegros] first cousins." END OF QUOTE.
In point of fact, there is actually excellent evidence to confirm that Agnes de Ferrers was the daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, by his wife, Margaret, daughter and co-heiress of Roger de Quincy, Knt., 2nd Earl of Winchester, hereditary Constable of Scotland.
Maxwell-Lyte, Historical Notes of Some Somerset Manors (Somerset Rec. Soc. Extra Ser. 1) (1931): 381–382 cites a deed in which Agnes de Muscegros, “lady of Chinnoc,” describes herself as daughter of Margaret de Ferrers, Countess of Derby). The original source for this deed is believed to be British Library, Add. MS, pencil fo. 164.
Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals (1950): 64 includes an abstract of a charter of Agnes de Muscegros, lady of Chinnor, Oxfordshire. In this charter, Agnes specifically refers to Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester, as her grandfather.
"Charter of Agnes de Mussegros, lady of Chinnor, Oxon., in her free widowhood giving to Thame abbey Oxon. one penny of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband, being that penny of rent which Thomas de Duno used to render to her for the yearly rent of 100 shillings which the said Thomas used to receive annually from the abbot and convent of Thame, of the gift of Roger de Quincy, Agnes' grandfather, sometime earl of Winchester, who gave the aforesaid rent of 100 shillings to Reginald de Duno, Thomas's father. Sealing clause. 'Hiis testibus domino Hugone de Pleciis. domino Robert Malet domino Elya de Wytefeld . Thomas de Fell' Nicholas Bursard . Johanne de Boys . Hugone Purton de Tham' . Ricardo Dauers et allis'. (1281 or later). Seal on tag: pointed oval, 1-1/2 x 3/4 in.; green. Three shields of arms suspended from a tree, (i) a lion rampant to sinister; (ii) and (iii) both vair; [SI]GIVLVM IEDETI DE : MV : CEGRO." END OF QUOTE.
That Agnes de Muscegros' land holding came through Roger de Quincy, is borne out by the following record in the Justices Intinerant:
In 1285 Agnes de Mucegros claimed free warren in Chinnor, Oxfordshire and its member Sydenham as Roger de Quincy previously had it.
Reference: Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/705, image 2; Date: 1285 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no705/aJUST1no705fronts/IMG_8337.htm); see also VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80.
Given that the evidence for the parentage of Agnes de Ferrers, wife of Robert de Muscegros is sound, this in turn means she can not have been the mother of Sir Robert's daughter, Hawise de Muscegros. If Agnes had been Hawise's mother as claimed by Complete Peerage, this would have made Hawise the first cousin of her 2nd husband John de Ferrers (who was the grandson of Sir William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby). That this was clearly not the case is proven by the dispensation dated 1300 for the marriage of John de Ferrers and Hawise de Muscegros [see Cal. Papal Letters, vol.1, p.588]. This dispensation provides for a kinship between John de Ferrers and Hawise de Muscegros' 1st husband, William de Mortimer, but makes no mention that John de Ferrers and Hawise de Muscegros were themselves near related.
So what became of Agnes de Ferrers? We know she survived her known husband, Sir Robert de Muscegros, many years. On 8 Jan. 1281 Agnes, late the wife of Robert de Muscegros, came before the king and took oath not to marry without the king's license [Reference: C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 114]. On 9 May 1281 she subsequently had dower assigned to her [Reference: C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 82].
As already noted above, in 1281 or later Agnes in her widowhood gave Thame Abbey Oxon. 1d. of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband [Reference: Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals (1950): 64].
In 1283 Roger de ?Marsinton sued her in the Court of Common Pleas regarding 26s. rent in Keyston, Huntingdonshire.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 87f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0087.htm).
The same year Agnes, widow of Robert de Mucegros, sued Cecily, widow of John de Muscegros, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of two carucates of land in Boddington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her dower; Cecily came into court and said that she held the said tenement in dower of the inheritance of Hawise daughter and heir of the said John [recte Robert] de Mucegros.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 100f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0100.htm).
As noted above, in 1285 Agnes claimed free warren in Chinnor, Oxfordshire and its member Sydenham as Roger de Quincy previously had it [Reference: Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/705, image 2; Date: 1285 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no705/aJUST1no705fronts/IMG_8337.htm); see also VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80].
On 17 April 1287 Agnes had license to remarry for a fine of 200 marks. Reference: Cal. Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 235].
So who did Agnes marry? As far as I know, the name of Agnes' 2nd husband has never been identified in print. Recently, however, I came across a Common Pleas lawsuit which reveals her 2nd husband's name. The lawsuit is dated 1289. It indicates that Agnes, then wife of John Fitz Reynold, was holding woods in two Muscegros family properties, namely Hampstead Sifrewast [i.e., Hampstead Norris] and Aldworth, Berkshire, in right of her dower. Below is an abstract of that lawsuit.
In Easter term 1289 William de Mortimer and Hawise his wife [i.e., Agnes de Ferrers' step-daughter] sued John Fitz Reynold and Agnes his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste and destruction in woods held in dower by Agnes of the inheritance of Hawise in Hampstead Sifrewast and Aldworth, Berkshire to the disinheritance of the said Hawise.
References: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 967d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0967.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 990d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0990.htm).
As for further evidence that Agnes de Ferrers married (2nd) John Fitz Reynold, I find that in 1305 John Fitz Reynold and his wife, Agnes, conveyed the manor of Hampstead Syfrewaste [Hampstead Norris], Berkshire [a Muscegros family manor] to John de Ferrers and Hawise his wife for 100 marks of silver. Reference: National Archives, fine dated 1305 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_9_36-38/IMG_0040.htm).
VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 73–81 comments that on the basis of this fine that Robert de Muscegros [died 1280] either had another daughter who married John son of Reginald or the latter married Robert's widow. Inasmuch as Robert de Muscegros had a widow Agnes and had only one daughter, Hawise, it is clear that John Fitz Reynold was married to Robert de Muscegros' widow.
John Fitz Reynold may readily be identified as Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold [died 1310], who is known to have been survived by a wife named Agnes. A good account of Sir John Fitz Reynold is found in Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 465–467 (sub Fitzreynold). Regarding his wife, Agnes, the following information is provided:
"He married Agnes. He died shortly before 10 Feb. 1309/10. On 10 June 1310 his widow had livery of six hamlets and in co. Brecknock, and on 3 Feb. 1310/1 of 3 1/3 knights' fees, and the advowson of Cathedine, co. Brecknock, and on 8 May 1311 of one-third of the manor of Caldicot, all of which the King had assigned her in dower. She was living 7 Nov. 1312." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere I find that on 20 March 1313 Robert de Sapy and Agnes his wife were pardoned for acquiring without license two parts of the manor of Chinnor, Oxfordshire from Agnes de Muscegros [Reference: Cal. Patent Rolls, 1307–1313 (1894): 557; see also VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80].
It has been commonly assumed that Agnes, wife of Sir John Fitz Reynold, was the mother of his son and heir, Sir Herbert Fitz John. Given that Herbert Fitz Herbert was married in 1291, it is impossible chronologically for him to have been the son of his father's survuving wife, Agnes de Ferrers. As such, it appears that Sir John Fitz Reynold had his son, Herbert, by an unknown first wife.
In summary, the evidence is good that Agnes, surviving wife of Sir Robert de Muscegros, was the daughter of Sir William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby, by his wife, Margaret de Quincy. Following Sir Robert de Muscegros' death in 1280, his wife, Agnes, appears regularly in records until 1287, when she had license to re-marry. In 1289 and 1305 Agnes occurs as the wife of Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold. She was living as late as 1312. It has been falsely claimed that Agnes de Ferrers was the mother of Sir Robert de Muscegros' daughter, Hawise, and also that she was the mother of Sir John Fitz Reynold's son, Herbert. It appears, however, that neither child belongs to her and that Agnes de Ferrers likely died childless.
For interest's sake, I've copied my current file account of Sir Robert de Muscegros, died 1280, and his wife, Agnes de Ferrers. It includes information regarding Agnes de Ferrers' 2nd husband, Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold, died 1310.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
ROBERT DE MUSCEGROS (or MUCEGROS, MUSSEGROS), Knt., of Charlton Musgrove, Norton, and Stowell, Somerset, Boddington and Kemerton, Gloucestershire, Great Finborough, Suffolk, etc., Constable of Bristol Castle, son and heir, born about 1252 (aged 23 in 1275). He fought in Wales in 1272 and 1277. He had livery of his father’s lands 4 June 1275. He married (1st) before 1276 an unidentified wife, _____. They had one daughter, Hawise. In October 1275 Robert handed over his castle of Bunratty in Ireland to the king, on condition that as soon as the contention between the king and his subjects in Ireland is settled, and the said Robert has paid all expenses for its repair, munition, upkeep, and custody while in the king’s hand, it shall be restored to him or his heirs. In 1276–7 John Herreward arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against him and others touching a tenement in Thatcham, Berkshire. In July 1276 Thomas de Clare granted him the manors of Aldworth, Compton, and Hampstead Norris, Berkshire, Alvescot, Oxfordshire, and Cottesmore, Rutland, in exchange for Bunratty Castle, Tradree cantred, and Ui-Corbmaig, all in County Clare, in Ireland. In 1277 he was granted protection, he then going to Wales on the king’s service. In 1277–8 Robert Gobald arraigned an assize of mort d’ancestor against him touching a messuage and land in Stawell, Somerset. He married (2nd) AGNES DE FERRERS, daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, by his 2nd wife, Margaret (or Margery), daughter and co-heiress of Roger de Quincy, Knt., 2nd Earl of Winchester, hereditary Constable of Scotland [see FERRERS 7 for her ancestry]. Her maritagium included the manor of Chinnor, Oxfordshire. They had no issue. In 1278–9 John Bochenel arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against him and Thomas de Clare regarding common of pasture in Hampstead Cyfrevast, Berkshire. Sometime before 1279, he and Sir Robert de Tibetot witnessed a charter of Pain de Chaworth to Godstow Abbey, Oxfordshire. SIR ROBERT DE MUSCEGROS died 27 Dec. 1280. His widow, Agnes, had dower assigned to her 9 May 1281. In 1281 or later Agnes in her widowhood gave Thame Abbey Oxon. 1d. of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband. In 1283 Roger de ?Marsinton sued her in the Court of Common Pleas regarding 26s. rent in Keyston, Huntingdonshire. The same year Agnes sued Cecily, widow of John de Muscegros, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of two carucates of land in Boddington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her dower; Cecily came into court and said that she held the said tenement in dower of the inheritance of Hawise daughter and heir of the said John [recte Robert] de Mucegros. Sometime before October 1283, Richard de Bois, custodian of Corfe Castle, Dorset bought the land late of Robert de Muscegros at Gotowre super Mare [in Studland] and in the nearby warren of Corfe, Dorset for the king’s uses. In 1285 Agnes claimed free warren in Chinnor, Oxfordshire and its member Sydenham as Roger de Quincy previously had it. She had license to remarry for a fine of 200 marks 17 April 1287. Agnes married (2nd) before Easter term 1289 (date of lawsuit) (as his 2nd wife) JOHN FITZ REYNOLD, Knt., Lord Fitz Reynold [see FITZ HERBERT 6], of Blaen Llyfni (in Cathedine), Talgarth, and Bulke-Dinas, Breconshire, Wales, Crookham (in Thatcham) and Leckhampstead (in Chieveley), Berkshire, Haresfield and Southam (in Bishop’s Cleeve), Gloucestershire, Herriard and Wolverton, Hampshire, Hook Norton and Swerford, Oxfordshire, etc., and, in right of his 2nd wife, of Hampstead Norris, Berkshire, son and heir of Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt., of Blaen Llyfni (in Cathedine), Bwlch y Dinas (in Talgarth), and Talgarth, Breconshire, Wales, by his 1st wife, Alice [see FITZ HERBERT 5 for his ancestry]. In 1287 William son of William de la Weye sued him in the Court of Common Pleas that he warranty him regarding the third part of one messuage and lands in Stanford (in Stanford Dingley), Berkshire, which Joan widow of Reynold Fitz Peter claimed in dower. The same year William de Brehuse [Brewes] sued John Fitz Reynold Fitz Peter in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the manor of Manningford, Wiltshire and four virgates of land and 20 acres of meadow in Chirton, Wiltshire, which Joan widow of Reynold Fitz Peter claimed in dower. In Easter term 1289 William de Mortimer and Hawise his wife sued John Fitz Reynold and Agnes his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste and destruction in woods held in dower by Agnes of the inheritance of Hawise in Hampstead Sifrewast and Aldworth, Berkshire to the disinheritance of the said Hawise. He was summoned for military service in Scotland in 1297, 1298, 1299, 1300, 1301, 1302, and 1306. He presented to the prebendal portion of Pontesbury, Shropshire in 1300. He signed the Baron’s letter to the Pope in 1301 as Johannis filius Reginaldi Dominus de Blenleveney. He was summoned to Parliament from 29 Dec. 1299, by writs directed Johanni filio Reginaldi. In 1305 he and his wife, Agnes, conveyed the manor of Hampstead Syfrewaste [Hampstead Norris], Berkshire to John de Ferrers and Hawise his wife. She died without issue before 1297.On 15 Jan. 1310 he surrendered the lordships of Blaen Llyfni, Talgarth, and Bulke-Dinas, Brecomshire to the king, which the king in turn re-granted back to him for life. SIR JOHN FITZ REYNOLD, Lord Fitz Reynold, died shortly before 10 Feb. 1310. On 2 Feb. 1311 his widow, Agnes, was assigned dower. About 1312 she petitioned the king requesting that she not be disturbed in her dower and that justice be commanded regarding her suit in a writ of dower against John de Cherleton regarding the third part of the manor of Pontesbury, Shropshire. She was living 7 Nov. 1312. On 20 March 1313 Robert de Sapy and Agnes his wife were pardoned for acquiring without license two parts of the manor of Chinnor, Oxfordshire from Agnes de Muscegros.
References:
Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 4 (1879–80): 313–319. Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 46 (1886): 300; 47 (1886): 353; 48 (1887): 83; 50 (1889): 236. Dickinson, Kirkby’s Quest for Somerset (Somerset Rec. Soc. 3) (1889): 24, 26. C.C.R. 1307–1313 (1892): 298, 311, 336, 488. C.C.R. 1313–1318 (1893): 32–33, 353–354. C.P.R. 1281–1292 (1893): 80, 217. C.P.R. 1307–1313 (1894): 557. Giffard & Bowett, Regs. of Walter Giffard & Henry Bowett Bishops of Bath & Wells (Somerset Rec. Soc. 13) (1899): 26. Rye, Cal. Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 79. C.P.R. 1272–1281 (1901): 107, 136, 189, 426, 441, 448. C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 74, 82, 114. Clark, English Reg. of Godstow Nunnery, Near Oxford 1 (1905): 122–125. Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 32–33. C.F.R. 1 (1911): 48, 66, 141, 235. C.P. 4 (1916): 308, footnote c; 5 (1926): 307–310. VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 3–8, 15–21, . 73–81. C.P. 5 (1926): 307–310 (sub Ferrers), foll. 320 (Ferrers-Muscegros ped.), 465–467 (sub Fitzreynold). Maxwell-Lyte, Hist. Notes of Some Somerset Manors (Somerset Rec. Soc. Extra Ser. 1) (1931): 379–387 (author refers to a deed in which Agnes de Muscegros, “lady of Cbinnoc,” describes herself as daughter of Margaretde Ferrers, Countess of Derby). Hatton, Book of Seals (1950): 64 (charter dated 1281 or later of Agnes de Mussegros, lady of Chinnor, Oxon., in her free widowhood giving to Thame abbey Oxon. 1d. of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband, being that penny of rent which Thomas de Duno used to render to her for the yearly rent of 100 shillings which the said Thomas used to receive annually from the abbot and convent of Thame, of the gift of Roger de Quincy, Agnes’ grandfather, sometime earl of Winchester; seal on tag: pointed oval, 1-1/2 x 3/4 in.; green. Three shields of arms suspended from a tree, (i) a lion rampant to sinister; (ii) and (iii) both vair; [SI]GIVLVM IEDETI DE : MV : CEGRO). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 205: 6; 393: 4 (sub Muscegros). VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80; 15 (2006): 18–23. Stone, Oxfordshire Hundred Rolls of 1279 (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 46) (1968): 53–54. Brault Rolls of Arms Edward I 2 (1997): 316 (arms of Robert de Musgrove: Or, a lion rampant gules). VCH Somerset 7 (1999): 170–177. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 87f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0087.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 100f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0100.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/51, image 7210 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no51/CP40no51afr/IMG_7210.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/67, image 4005d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no67/bCP40no67dorses/IMG_4005.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/67, image 4023d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no67/bCP40no67dorses/IMG_4023.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 967d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0967.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 990d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0990.htm). National Archives, SC 8/1/39; SC 8/32/1576 (petition dated c.1276 by William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick to King’s council, requesting that although he holds Cottesmore in Rutland in chief of the king, Thomas de Clare has given him to understand that he holds it, and has exchanged it with Robert de Mucegros, who has done homage to the king for it. He requests justice); SC 8/181/9024 (petition dated c.1321 by Edmund de Keynes and Joan, his wife to the king, seeking remedy re. a court case between them and John and Hawise de Bures, seemingly over the manor of Alvescot, Oxfordshire. Following a writ of cosinage, Hawise appeared and showed the charter of the gift of various manors and lands in England and Ireland to her father, Robert de Musgros, by Thomas de Clare) ; SC 8/327/E821 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). National Archives, fine dated 1305 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_9_36-38/IMG_0040.htm).
Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/705, image 2; Date: 1285 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no705/aJUST1no705fronts/IMG_8337.htm).
Child of Robert de Muscegros, Knt., by _____:
i. HAWISE DE MUSCEGROS, married (1st) WILLIAM DE MORTIMER, Knt., of Newbury, Berkshire, Crendon, Buckinghamshire, Bridgwater, Milverton, and Odcombe, Somerset, etc.; (2nd) JOHN DE FERRERS, Knt., 1st Lord Ferrers of Chartley [see FERRERS 9]; (3rd) JOHN DE BURES, Knt., of Boddington, Gloucestershire [see FERRERS 9].
Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 307–310 (sub Ferrers), chart foll. 320 (Ferrers-Muscegros ped.) includes a good account of John de Ferrers, Knt., 1st Lord Ferrers of Chartley (died 1312). Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married, between 2 Feb. 1297/8 and 13 Sept. 1300, Hawise, daughter and heiress of Sir Robert de Muscegros, of Stowell, Norton, and Charlton, Somerset, Kemerton and Boddington, co. Gloucester, Hampstead and Aldworth, Berkshire, by his wife, Agnes. She was widow of William de Mortemer, of Bridgwater, Milverton, and Odcombe, Somerset, Crendon, Bucks, &c. (a younger son of Sir Roger de Mortemer, of Wigmore, co. Hereford) who died s.p. shortly before 30 June 1297, but this marriage had not been consummated." END OF QUOTE.
On page 308, footnote c, the following comment is made concerning Hawise de Muscegros' alleged mother, Agnes:
"According to the usual account, this Agnes was da. of William, Earl of Derby, by his second wife, Margaret de Quency. This is obviously impossible, for it would make John [de Ferrers] and Hawise [de Muscegros] first cousins." END OF QUOTE.
In point of fact, there is actually excellent evidence to confirm that Agnes de Ferrers was the daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, by his wife, Margaret, daughter and co-heiress of Roger de Quincy, Knt., 2nd Earl of Winchester, hereditary Constable of Scotland.
Maxwell-Lyte, Historical Notes of Some Somerset Manors (Somerset Rec. Soc. Extra Ser. 1) (1931): 381–382 cites a deed in which Agnes de Muscegros, “lady of Chinnoc,” describes herself as daughter of Margaret de Ferrers, Countess of Derby). The original source for this deed is believed to be British Library, Add. MS, pencil fo. 164.
Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals (1950): 64 includes an abstract of a charter of Agnes de Muscegros, lady of Chinnor, Oxfordshire. In this charter, Agnes specifically refers to Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester, as her grandfather.
"Charter of Agnes de Mussegros, lady of Chinnor, Oxon., in her free widowhood giving to Thame abbey Oxon. one penny of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband, being that penny of rent which Thomas de Duno used to render to her for the yearly rent of 100 shillings which the said Thomas used to receive annually from the abbot and convent of Thame, of the gift of Roger de Quincy, Agnes' grandfather, sometime earl of Winchester, who gave the aforesaid rent of 100 shillings to Reginald de Duno, Thomas's father. Sealing clause. 'Hiis testibus domino Hugone de Pleciis. domino Robert Malet domino Elya de Wytefeld . Thomas de Fell' Nicholas Bursard . Johanne de Boys . Hugone Purton de Tham' . Ricardo Dauers et allis'. (1281 or later). Seal on tag: pointed oval, 1-1/2 x 3/4 in.; green. Three shields of arms suspended from a tree, (i) a lion rampant to sinister; (ii) and (iii) both vair; [SI]GIVLVM IEDETI DE : MV : CEGRO." END OF QUOTE.
That Agnes de Muscegros' land holding came through Roger de Quincy, is borne out by the following record in the Justices Intinerant:
In 1285 Agnes de Mucegros claimed free warren in Chinnor, Oxfordshire and its member Sydenham as Roger de Quincy previously had it.
Reference: Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/705, image 2; Date: 1285 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no705/aJUST1no705fronts/IMG_8337.htm); see also VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80.
Given that the evidence for the parentage of Agnes de Ferrers, wife of Robert de Muscegros is sound, this in turn means she can not have been the mother of Sir Robert's daughter, Hawise de Muscegros. If Agnes had been Hawise's mother as claimed by Complete Peerage, this would have made Hawise the first cousin of her 2nd husband John de Ferrers (who was the grandson of Sir William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby). That this was clearly not the case is proven by the dispensation dated 1300 for the marriage of John de Ferrers and Hawise de Muscegros [see Cal. Papal Letters, vol.1, p.588]. This dispensation provides for a kinship between John de Ferrers and Hawise de Muscegros' 1st husband, William de Mortimer, but makes no mention that John de Ferrers and Hawise de Muscegros were themselves near related.
So what became of Agnes de Ferrers? We know she survived her known husband, Sir Robert de Muscegros, many years. On 8 Jan. 1281 Agnes, late the wife of Robert de Muscegros, came before the king and took oath not to marry without the king's license [Reference: C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 114]. On 9 May 1281 she subsequently had dower assigned to her [Reference: C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 82].
As already noted above, in 1281 or later Agnes in her widowhood gave Thame Abbey Oxon. 1d. of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband [Reference: Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals (1950): 64].
In 1283 Roger de ?Marsinton sued her in the Court of Common Pleas regarding 26s. rent in Keyston, Huntingdonshire.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 87f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0087.htm).
The same year Agnes, widow of Robert de Mucegros, sued Cecily, widow of John de Muscegros, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of two carucates of land in Boddington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her dower; Cecily came into court and said that she held the said tenement in dower of the inheritance of Hawise daughter and heir of the said John [recte Robert] de Mucegros.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 100f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0100.htm).
As noted above, in 1285 Agnes claimed free warren in Chinnor, Oxfordshire and its member Sydenham as Roger de Quincy previously had it [Reference: Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/705, image 2; Date: 1285 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no705/aJUST1no705fronts/IMG_8337.htm); see also VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80].
On 17 April 1287 Agnes had license to remarry for a fine of 200 marks. Reference: Cal. Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 235].
So who did Agnes marry? As far as I know, the name of Agnes' 2nd husband has never been identified in print. Recently, however, I came across a Common Pleas lawsuit which reveals her 2nd husband's name. The lawsuit is dated 1289. It indicates that Agnes, then wife of John Fitz Reynold, was holding woods in two Muscegros family properties, namely Hampstead Sifrewast [i.e., Hampstead Norris] and Aldworth, Berkshire, in right of her dower. Below is an abstract of that lawsuit.
In Easter term 1289 William de Mortimer and Hawise his wife [i.e., Agnes de Ferrers' step-daughter] sued John Fitz Reynold and Agnes his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste and destruction in woods held in dower by Agnes of the inheritance of Hawise in Hampstead Sifrewast and Aldworth, Berkshire to the disinheritance of the said Hawise.
References: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 967d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0967.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 990d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0990.htm).
As for further evidence that Agnes de Ferrers married (2nd) John Fitz Reynold, I find that in 1305 John Fitz Reynold and his wife, Agnes, conveyed the manor of Hampstead Syfrewaste [Hampstead Norris], Berkshire [a Muscegros family manor] to John de Ferrers and Hawise his wife for 100 marks of silver. Reference: National Archives, fine dated 1305 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_9_36-38/IMG_0040.htm).
VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 73–81 comments that on the basis of this fine that Robert de Muscegros [died 1280] either had another daughter who married John son of Reginald or the latter married Robert's widow. Inasmuch as Robert de Muscegros had a widow Agnes and had only one daughter, Hawise, it is clear that John Fitz Reynold was married to Robert de Muscegros' widow.
John Fitz Reynold may readily be identified as Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold [died 1310], who is known to have been survived by a wife named Agnes. A good account of Sir John Fitz Reynold is found in Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 465–467 (sub Fitzreynold). Regarding his wife, Agnes, the following information is provided:
"He married Agnes. He died shortly before 10 Feb. 1309/10. On 10 June 1310 his widow had livery of six hamlets and in co. Brecknock, and on 3 Feb. 1310/1 of 3 1/3 knights' fees, and the advowson of Cathedine, co. Brecknock, and on 8 May 1311 of one-third of the manor of Caldicot, all of which the King had assigned her in dower. She was living 7 Nov. 1312." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere I find that on 20 March 1313 Robert de Sapy and Agnes his wife were pardoned for acquiring without license two parts of the manor of Chinnor, Oxfordshire from Agnes de Muscegros [Reference: Cal. Patent Rolls, 1307–1313 (1894): 557; see also VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80].
It has been commonly assumed that Agnes, wife of Sir John Fitz Reynold, was the mother of his son and heir, Sir Herbert Fitz John. Given that Herbert Fitz Herbert was married in 1291, it is impossible chronologically for him to have been the son of his father's survuving wife, Agnes de Ferrers. As such, it appears that Sir John Fitz Reynold had his son, Herbert, by an unknown first wife.
In summary, the evidence is good that Agnes, surviving wife of Sir Robert de Muscegros, was the daughter of Sir William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby, by his wife, Margaret de Quincy. Following Sir Robert de Muscegros' death in 1280, his wife, Agnes, appears regularly in records until 1287, when she had license to re-marry. In 1289 and 1305 Agnes occurs as the wife of Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold. She was living as late as 1312. It has been falsely claimed that Agnes de Ferrers was the mother of Sir Robert de Muscegros' daughter, Hawise, and also that she was the mother of Sir John Fitz Reynold's son, Herbert. It appears, however, that neither child belongs to her and that Agnes de Ferrers likely died childless.
For interest's sake, I've copied my current file account of Sir Robert de Muscegros, died 1280, and his wife, Agnes de Ferrers. It includes information regarding Agnes de Ferrers' 2nd husband, Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold, died 1310.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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ROBERT DE MUSCEGROS (or MUCEGROS, MUSSEGROS), Knt., of Charlton Musgrove, Norton, and Stowell, Somerset, Boddington and Kemerton, Gloucestershire, Great Finborough, Suffolk, etc., Constable of Bristol Castle, son and heir, born about 1252 (aged 23 in 1275). He fought in Wales in 1272 and 1277. He had livery of his father’s lands 4 June 1275. He married (1st) before 1276 an unidentified wife, _____. They had one daughter, Hawise. In October 1275 Robert handed over his castle of Bunratty in Ireland to the king, on condition that as soon as the contention between the king and his subjects in Ireland is settled, and the said Robert has paid all expenses for its repair, munition, upkeep, and custody while in the king’s hand, it shall be restored to him or his heirs. In 1276–7 John Herreward arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against him and others touching a tenement in Thatcham, Berkshire. In July 1276 Thomas de Clare granted him the manors of Aldworth, Compton, and Hampstead Norris, Berkshire, Alvescot, Oxfordshire, and Cottesmore, Rutland, in exchange for Bunratty Castle, Tradree cantred, and Ui-Corbmaig, all in County Clare, in Ireland. In 1277 he was granted protection, he then going to Wales on the king’s service. In 1277–8 Robert Gobald arraigned an assize of mort d’ancestor against him touching a messuage and land in Stawell, Somerset. He married (2nd) AGNES DE FERRERS, daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, by his 2nd wife, Margaret (or Margery), daughter and co-heiress of Roger de Quincy, Knt., 2nd Earl of Winchester, hereditary Constable of Scotland [see FERRERS 7 for her ancestry]. Her maritagium included the manor of Chinnor, Oxfordshire. They had no issue. In 1278–9 John Bochenel arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against him and Thomas de Clare regarding common of pasture in Hampstead Cyfrevast, Berkshire. Sometime before 1279, he and Sir Robert de Tibetot witnessed a charter of Pain de Chaworth to Godstow Abbey, Oxfordshire. SIR ROBERT DE MUSCEGROS died 27 Dec. 1280. His widow, Agnes, had dower assigned to her 9 May 1281. In 1281 or later Agnes in her widowhood gave Thame Abbey Oxon. 1d. of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband. In 1283 Roger de ?Marsinton sued her in the Court of Common Pleas regarding 26s. rent in Keyston, Huntingdonshire. The same year Agnes sued Cecily, widow of John de Muscegros, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of two carucates of land in Boddington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her dower; Cecily came into court and said that she held the said tenement in dower of the inheritance of Hawise daughter and heir of the said John [recte Robert] de Mucegros. Sometime before October 1283, Richard de Bois, custodian of Corfe Castle, Dorset bought the land late of Robert de Muscegros at Gotowre super Mare [in Studland] and in the nearby warren of Corfe, Dorset for the king’s uses. In 1285 Agnes claimed free warren in Chinnor, Oxfordshire and its member Sydenham as Roger de Quincy previously had it. She had license to remarry for a fine of 200 marks 17 April 1287. Agnes married (2nd) before Easter term 1289 (date of lawsuit) (as his 2nd wife) JOHN FITZ REYNOLD, Knt., Lord Fitz Reynold [see FITZ HERBERT 6], of Blaen Llyfni (in Cathedine), Talgarth, and Bulke-Dinas, Breconshire, Wales, Crookham (in Thatcham) and Leckhampstead (in Chieveley), Berkshire, Haresfield and Southam (in Bishop’s Cleeve), Gloucestershire, Herriard and Wolverton, Hampshire, Hook Norton and Swerford, Oxfordshire, etc., and, in right of his 2nd wife, of Hampstead Norris, Berkshire, son and heir of Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt., of Blaen Llyfni (in Cathedine), Bwlch y Dinas (in Talgarth), and Talgarth, Breconshire, Wales, by his 1st wife, Alice [see FITZ HERBERT 5 for his ancestry]. In 1287 William son of William de la Weye sued him in the Court of Common Pleas that he warranty him regarding the third part of one messuage and lands in Stanford (in Stanford Dingley), Berkshire, which Joan widow of Reynold Fitz Peter claimed in dower. The same year William de Brehuse [Brewes] sued John Fitz Reynold Fitz Peter in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the manor of Manningford, Wiltshire and four virgates of land and 20 acres of meadow in Chirton, Wiltshire, which Joan widow of Reynold Fitz Peter claimed in dower. In Easter term 1289 William de Mortimer and Hawise his wife sued John Fitz Reynold and Agnes his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste and destruction in woods held in dower by Agnes of the inheritance of Hawise in Hampstead Sifrewast and Aldworth, Berkshire to the disinheritance of the said Hawise. He was summoned for military service in Scotland in 1297, 1298, 1299, 1300, 1301, 1302, and 1306. He presented to the prebendal portion of Pontesbury, Shropshire in 1300. He signed the Baron’s letter to the Pope in 1301 as Johannis filius Reginaldi Dominus de Blenleveney. He was summoned to Parliament from 29 Dec. 1299, by writs directed Johanni filio Reginaldi. In 1305 he and his wife, Agnes, conveyed the manor of Hampstead Syfrewaste [Hampstead Norris], Berkshire to John de Ferrers and Hawise his wife. She died without issue before 1297.On 15 Jan. 1310 he surrendered the lordships of Blaen Llyfni, Talgarth, and Bulke-Dinas, Brecomshire to the king, which the king in turn re-granted back to him for life. SIR JOHN FITZ REYNOLD, Lord Fitz Reynold, died shortly before 10 Feb. 1310. On 2 Feb. 1311 his widow, Agnes, was assigned dower. About 1312 she petitioned the king requesting that she not be disturbed in her dower and that justice be commanded regarding her suit in a writ of dower against John de Cherleton regarding the third part of the manor of Pontesbury, Shropshire. She was living 7 Nov. 1312. On 20 March 1313 Robert de Sapy and Agnes his wife were pardoned for acquiring without license two parts of the manor of Chinnor, Oxfordshire from Agnes de Muscegros.
References:
Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 4 (1879–80): 313–319. Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 46 (1886): 300; 47 (1886): 353; 48 (1887): 83; 50 (1889): 236. Dickinson, Kirkby’s Quest for Somerset (Somerset Rec. Soc. 3) (1889): 24, 26. C.C.R. 1307–1313 (1892): 298, 311, 336, 488. C.C.R. 1313–1318 (1893): 32–33, 353–354. C.P.R. 1281–1292 (1893): 80, 217. C.P.R. 1307–1313 (1894): 557. Giffard & Bowett, Regs. of Walter Giffard & Henry Bowett Bishops of Bath & Wells (Somerset Rec. Soc. 13) (1899): 26. Rye, Cal. Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 79. C.P.R. 1272–1281 (1901): 107, 136, 189, 426, 441, 448. C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 74, 82, 114. Clark, English Reg. of Godstow Nunnery, Near Oxford 1 (1905): 122–125. Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 32–33. C.F.R. 1 (1911): 48, 66, 141, 235. C.P. 4 (1916): 308, footnote c; 5 (1926): 307–310. VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 3–8, 15–21, . 73–81. C.P. 5 (1926): 307–310 (sub Ferrers), foll. 320 (Ferrers-Muscegros ped.), 465–467 (sub Fitzreynold). Maxwell-Lyte, Hist. Notes of Some Somerset Manors (Somerset Rec. Soc. Extra Ser. 1) (1931): 379–387 (author refers to a deed in which Agnes de Muscegros, “lady of Cbinnoc,” describes herself as daughter of Margaretde Ferrers, Countess of Derby). Hatton, Book of Seals (1950): 64 (charter dated 1281 or later of Agnes de Mussegros, lady of Chinnor, Oxon., in her free widowhood giving to Thame abbey Oxon. 1d. of yearly rent in Sydenham, Oxon., in free alms for the health of her soul and that of Robert de Mussegros formerly her husband, being that penny of rent which Thomas de Duno used to render to her for the yearly rent of 100 shillings which the said Thomas used to receive annually from the abbot and convent of Thame, of the gift of Roger de Quincy, Agnes’ grandfather, sometime earl of Winchester; seal on tag: pointed oval, 1-1/2 x 3/4 in.; green. Three shields of arms suspended from a tree, (i) a lion rampant to sinister; (ii) and (iii) both vair; [SI]GIVLVM IEDETI DE : MV : CEGRO). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 205: 6; 393: 4 (sub Muscegros). VCH Oxford 8 (1964): 55–80; 15 (2006): 18–23. Stone, Oxfordshire Hundred Rolls of 1279 (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 46) (1968): 53–54. Brault Rolls of Arms Edward I 2 (1997): 316 (arms of Robert de Musgrove: Or, a lion rampant gules). VCH Somerset 7 (1999): 170–177. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 87f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0087.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/49, image 100f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no49/aCP40no49fronts/IMG_0100.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/51, image 7210 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no51/CP40no51afr/IMG_7210.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/67, image 4005d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no67/bCP40no67dorses/IMG_4005.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/67, image 4023d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no67/bCP40no67dorses/IMG_4023.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 967d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0967.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 990d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/bCP40no78dorses/IMG_0990.htm). National Archives, SC 8/1/39; SC 8/32/1576 (petition dated c.1276 by William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick to King’s council, requesting that although he holds Cottesmore in Rutland in chief of the king, Thomas de Clare has given him to understand that he holds it, and has exchanged it with Robert de Mucegros, who has done homage to the king for it. He requests justice); SC 8/181/9024 (petition dated c.1321 by Edmund de Keynes and Joan, his wife to the king, seeking remedy re. a court case between them and John and Hawise de Bures, seemingly over the manor of Alvescot, Oxfordshire. Following a writ of cosinage, Hawise appeared and showed the charter of the gift of various manors and lands in England and Ireland to her father, Robert de Musgros, by Thomas de Clare) ; SC 8/327/E821 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). National Archives, fine dated 1305 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_9_36-38/IMG_0040.htm).
Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/705, image 2; Date: 1285 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no705/aJUST1no705fronts/IMG_8337.htm).
Child of Robert de Muscegros, Knt., by _____:
i. HAWISE DE MUSCEGROS, married (1st) WILLIAM DE MORTIMER, Knt., of Newbury, Berkshire, Crendon, Buckinghamshire, Bridgwater, Milverton, and Odcombe, Somerset, etc.; (2nd) JOHN DE FERRERS, Knt., 1st Lord Ferrers of Chartley [see FERRERS 9]; (3rd) JOHN DE BURES, Knt., of Boddington, Gloucestershire [see FERRERS 9].
celticp...@gmail.com
Sep 25, 2018, 5:41:56 PM9/25/18
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
I see that Ralph Brooke, Esq., York Herald in Catalogue of Kings, Dukes, etc., of England (1619): 67 (sub Ferrars & Derby) states the following:
"William, Earle Ferrers, married to his second wife, Margaret, daughter and one of the heyres of Roger Quincie Earle of Winchester ... by whom he had issue ... a daughter named Agnes, married to Robert Musegros, sonne of Richard Lord of Derhurst." END OF QUOTE.
Brooke may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PagPtqwRhXkC&pg=PA67
I see that Ralph Brooke, Esq., York Herald in Catalogue of Kings, Dukes, etc., of England (1619): 67 (sub Ferrars & Derby) states the following:
"William, Earle Ferrers, married to his second wife, Margaret, daughter and one of the heyres of Roger Quincie Earle of Winchester ... by whom he had issue ... a daughter named Agnes, married to Robert Musegros, sonne of Richard Lord of Derhurst." END OF QUOTE.
Brooke may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PagPtqwRhXkC&pg=PA67
celticp...@gmail.com
Sep 25, 2018, 10:56:49 PM9/25/18
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
In an earlier post in this thread, I said the following:
"Given that Herbert Fitz Herbert was married in 1291, it is impossible chronologically for him to have been the son of his father's survuving wife, Agnes de Ferrers."
I meant to say:
"Given that Herbert Fitz John was married in 1291, it is impossible chronologically for him to have been the son of his father's surviving wife, Agnes de Ferrers."
For interest's sake, below is a copy of a petition dated 1312 by Agnes de Ferrers, wife of Sir Robert de Muscegros and Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold. This record is available in the online Discovery catalogue.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + +
Petitioners: Agnes Fitz Reynald, widow of John Fitz Reynald.
Reference: SC 8/327/E821
Description:
Petitioners: Agnes Fitz Reynald, widow of John Fitz Reynald.
Name(s): Fitz Reynald, Agnes
Addressees: King.
Nature of request: Fitz Reynald requests that it be ordained that she is not disturbed in her dower and that the justice be commanded to proceed in her suit that she brought by writ of dower against Charlton for the third part of the manor of Pontesbury which was a free tenement of her late husband, as Charlton answered that he held it by gift of the king and the justices have ceased the plea to her great damage.
Nature of endorsement: Let this be sent before the full council.
Places mentioned: Pantesbury (Pontesbury), [Shropshire].
People mentioned: John le Fitz Reynald, late husband of the petitioner; John de Cherleton (Charlton).
Note: The petition is dated to c. 1312 as a clearly related order concerning the provision of the petitioner's dower is dated to 7 November 1312 (CCR 1307-13, p. 488).
Date: [c. 1312]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: French
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Publication note:
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edw II, vol. I, 1307-1313, (Public Record Office, 1892), pp.139, 488 (related enrolled deed, and order relating to the petition)
Select Cases in the Court of King's Bench, vol. II, Edw I, Ed. G.O. Sayles, (Selden Society, vol. LVII, 1938), p.cxxx (entry h) (full edition)
In an earlier post in this thread, I said the following:
"Given that Herbert Fitz Herbert was married in 1291, it is impossible chronologically for him to have been the son of his father's survuving wife, Agnes de Ferrers."
"Given that Herbert Fitz John was married in 1291, it is impossible chronologically for him to have been the son of his father's surviving wife, Agnes de Ferrers."
For interest's sake, below is a copy of a petition dated 1312 by Agnes de Ferrers, wife of Sir Robert de Muscegros and Sir John Fitz Reynold, Lord Fitz Reynold. This record is available in the online Discovery catalogue.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + +
Reference: SC 8/327/E821
Description:
Petitioners: Agnes Fitz Reynald, widow of John Fitz Reynald.
Name(s): Fitz Reynald, Agnes
Addressees: King.
Nature of request: Fitz Reynald requests that it be ordained that she is not disturbed in her dower and that the justice be commanded to proceed in her suit that she brought by writ of dower against Charlton for the third part of the manor of Pontesbury which was a free tenement of her late husband, as Charlton answered that he held it by gift of the king and the justices have ceased the plea to her great damage.
Nature of endorsement: Let this be sent before the full council.
Places mentioned: Pantesbury (Pontesbury), [Shropshire].
People mentioned: John le Fitz Reynald, late husband of the petitioner; John de Cherleton (Charlton).
Note: The petition is dated to c. 1312 as a clearly related order concerning the provision of the petitioner's dower is dated to 7 November 1312 (CCR 1307-13, p. 488).
Date: [c. 1312]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: French
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Publication note:
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edw II, vol. I, 1307-1313, (Public Record Office, 1892), pp.139, 488 (related enrolled deed, and order relating to the petition)
Select Cases in the Court of King's Bench, vol. II, Edw I, Ed. G.O. Sayles, (Selden Society, vol. LVII, 1938), p.cxxx (entry h) (full edition)
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