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Another C.P. Correction: Parentage of Sir Richard Vere, husband of Margaret Percy, Lady Grey of Codnor
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Douglas Richardson
Dec 14, 2011, 7:38:45 PM12/14/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 130 (sub Grey) has a good account of Sir
Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor, who died in 1444. Regarding his
marriage, the following information is given:
"He married before 5 May 1434 Margaret, 2nd daughter and coheiress of
Sir Henry Percy, of Atholl, and cousin [grand-niece] and coheiress of
Philippa, daughter and coheiress of David (of Strathbogie), Earl of
Atholl, widow of Sir Ralph de Percy. He [Henry Grey] died 17 July
1444. His widow [Margaret] married 2ndly Sir Richard Vere, younger
son of John, 12th Earl of Oxford, and died in Sept. 1464." END OF
QUOTE.
As we've seen on numerous occasions in the past, no documentation is
provided by Complete Peerage for the statement of the parentage of Sir
Richard Vere. The reader is left to guess as where Complete Peerage
found this information. That should be a red flag.
The four records below which are taken from the National Archives
Catalogue prove that Margaret Percy's 2nd husband, Sir Richard Vere,
was actually a brother (not a son) to John Vere, 12th Earl of Oxford,
and that Sir Richard Vere died sometime before 30 Jan. 1469. This
means that Sir Richard Vere was actually a younger son of Richard
Vere, K.G., 11th Earl of Oxford, by Alice, 3rd daughter of Richard
Sergeaux, Knt.
Also as indicated below, Sir Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor, and
his wife, Margaret Percy, had a daughter, Elizabeth Grey, who married
a certain Thomas Bodulgate. Elsewhere I find that Biancalana, Fee
Tail & the Common Recovery in Medieval England (2001): 355 shows that
in 1467 Margaret Percy's son and heir, Sir Henry Grey, 7th Lord Grey
of Codnor, sold the manors of Tunworth and Upton, Hampshire to Richard
Illingworth, Knt. The same year Thomas Bodulgate quitclaimed his
interest in the two manors to the same Richard Illingworth and his
son, Richard. The information in Biancalana may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gTSURuIVXwEC&pg=PA355.
As for Sir Richard Vere, I find that he obtained letters of protection
in 1454, he then serving in France in the retinue of his brother, John
Vere, Earl of Oxford. See Report of the Deputy Keeper 48 (1887):
400, which is available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=dAQrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA400
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
C 1/27/144
Scope and content
Richard Veer, knt. v. Robert Foulman, esq.: Detention of a deed of
feoffment of petitioner's manor of Astelens, made on his marriage with
Margaret lady Gray.: Essex.
Covering dates 1460-1465
Held by The National Archives, Kew
+ + + + + + + + + + +
C 131/75/11
Scope and content
Debtor: Richard Vere, knight, the brother of John, Earl of Oxford.
Creditor: Thomas, Lord of Scales, and Elizabeth Grey, the daughter of
Henry, Lord Grey.
Amount: 1000m.
Before whom: Ralph Verney, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 02/08/1445
First term: 25/03/1446
Last term: 25/03/1446
Writ to: Sheriff of Essex
Sent by: Chancery.
Endorsement: The reply of Walter Writtle, esquire, Sheriff: Richard
Vere had no goods or chattels in the bailiwick on the day of the
recognisance, or afterwards. The execution of the rest of the writ
appears in the inquisition.
Covering dates 1468 Oct 1
Note Inquisition and return: Date to be returned: 27/01/1469.
Attached is the inquisition made at Chelmsford in Essex on 24/01/1469
before Walter Writtle, Sheriff. Richard Vere, knight, was seized in
demesne of: a tenement, called Astclyns, and 2 messuages, 300 acres of
land, 20 acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture, 2 acres of woodland,
and a rent of 7s. 3d., in High Ongar, Magdalen Laver, North Weald,
Moreton, and Bobbingworth [all in Ongar Hundred, Essex], worth
altogether £8.
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
+ + + + + + + + + + +
C 131/241/21
Scope and content
Debtor: Richard Veer, knight, the brother of John, Earl of Oxford.
Creditor: Thomas, lord of Scales, Elizabeth Grey, the daughter of
Henry, formerly lord of Grey.
Amount: 1000m.
Before whom: Ralph Verney, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 02/08/1466
First term: 25/03/1467
Last term: 25/03/1467
Writ to: Sheriff of Essex
Sent by: Chancery.
Endorsement: Walter Writtle, esquire, Sheriff, replies that he
delivered on 13.2.1469 to Thomas Bodulgate and Elizabeth [Grey], his
wife, the tenement called Astelyns, 2 messuages, 300 acres of land, 20
acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture, 2 acres of woodland, and a rent
of 7s.3d
Covering dates 1469 Jan 30
Note Inquisition and return: Date to be returned: 16.4.1469 The
Sheriff replied to a previous writ that Richard was dead but on the
day of the recognisance Richard owned a tenement called Astelyns, 2
messuages, 300 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture,
2 acres of woodland, and a rent of 7s. 3d in Ongar, Magdalen Laver,
North Weald Basset, Moreton, and Bobbingworth [Ongar Hundred, Essex].
+ + + + + + + + +
C 1/38/113
Scope and content
Thomas Wynslawe, of London, draper. v. Thomas Bodulgate: Manor of
Astlyns, sold by Sir Richard Veer, knight, to complainant, although
liable under a statute staple to Bodulgate.: Essex.
Covering dates 1433-1443, or more likely 1467-1472
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 130 (sub Grey) has a good account of Sir
Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor, who died in 1444. Regarding his
marriage, the following information is given:
"He married before 5 May 1434 Margaret, 2nd daughter and coheiress of
Sir Henry Percy, of Atholl, and cousin [grand-niece] and coheiress of
Philippa, daughter and coheiress of David (of Strathbogie), Earl of
Atholl, widow of Sir Ralph de Percy. He [Henry Grey] died 17 July
1444. His widow [Margaret] married 2ndly Sir Richard Vere, younger
son of John, 12th Earl of Oxford, and died in Sept. 1464." END OF
QUOTE.
As we've seen on numerous occasions in the past, no documentation is
provided by Complete Peerage for the statement of the parentage of Sir
Richard Vere. The reader is left to guess as where Complete Peerage
found this information. That should be a red flag.
The four records below which are taken from the National Archives
Catalogue prove that Margaret Percy's 2nd husband, Sir Richard Vere,
was actually a brother (not a son) to John Vere, 12th Earl of Oxford,
and that Sir Richard Vere died sometime before 30 Jan. 1469. This
means that Sir Richard Vere was actually a younger son of Richard
Vere, K.G., 11th Earl of Oxford, by Alice, 3rd daughter of Richard
Sergeaux, Knt.
Also as indicated below, Sir Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor, and
his wife, Margaret Percy, had a daughter, Elizabeth Grey, who married
a certain Thomas Bodulgate. Elsewhere I find that Biancalana, Fee
Tail & the Common Recovery in Medieval England (2001): 355 shows that
in 1467 Margaret Percy's son and heir, Sir Henry Grey, 7th Lord Grey
of Codnor, sold the manors of Tunworth and Upton, Hampshire to Richard
Illingworth, Knt. The same year Thomas Bodulgate quitclaimed his
interest in the two manors to the same Richard Illingworth and his
son, Richard. The information in Biancalana may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gTSURuIVXwEC&pg=PA355.
As for Sir Richard Vere, I find that he obtained letters of protection
in 1454, he then serving in France in the retinue of his brother, John
Vere, Earl of Oxford. See Report of the Deputy Keeper 48 (1887):
400, which is available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=dAQrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA400
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
C 1/27/144
Scope and content
Richard Veer, knt. v. Robert Foulman, esq.: Detention of a deed of
feoffment of petitioner's manor of Astelens, made on his marriage with
Margaret lady Gray.: Essex.
Covering dates 1460-1465
Held by The National Archives, Kew
+ + + + + + + + + + +
C 131/75/11
Scope and content
Debtor: Richard Vere, knight, the brother of John, Earl of Oxford.
Creditor: Thomas, Lord of Scales, and Elizabeth Grey, the daughter of
Henry, Lord Grey.
Amount: 1000m.
Before whom: Ralph Verney, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 02/08/1445
First term: 25/03/1446
Last term: 25/03/1446
Writ to: Sheriff of Essex
Sent by: Chancery.
Endorsement: The reply of Walter Writtle, esquire, Sheriff: Richard
Vere had no goods or chattels in the bailiwick on the day of the
recognisance, or afterwards. The execution of the rest of the writ
appears in the inquisition.
Covering dates 1468 Oct 1
Note Inquisition and return: Date to be returned: 27/01/1469.
Attached is the inquisition made at Chelmsford in Essex on 24/01/1469
before Walter Writtle, Sheriff. Richard Vere, knight, was seized in
demesne of: a tenement, called Astclyns, and 2 messuages, 300 acres of
land, 20 acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture, 2 acres of woodland,
and a rent of 7s. 3d., in High Ongar, Magdalen Laver, North Weald,
Moreton, and Bobbingworth [all in Ongar Hundred, Essex], worth
altogether £8.
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
+ + + + + + + + + + +
C 131/241/21
Scope and content
Debtor: Richard Veer, knight, the brother of John, Earl of Oxford.
Creditor: Thomas, lord of Scales, Elizabeth Grey, the daughter of
Henry, formerly lord of Grey.
Amount: 1000m.
Before whom: Ralph Verney, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 02/08/1466
First term: 25/03/1467
Last term: 25/03/1467
Writ to: Sheriff of Essex
Sent by: Chancery.
Endorsement: Walter Writtle, esquire, Sheriff, replies that he
delivered on 13.2.1469 to Thomas Bodulgate and Elizabeth [Grey], his
wife, the tenement called Astelyns, 2 messuages, 300 acres of land, 20
acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture, 2 acres of woodland, and a rent
of 7s.3d
Covering dates 1469 Jan 30
Note Inquisition and return: Date to be returned: 16.4.1469 The
Sheriff replied to a previous writ that Richard was dead but on the
day of the recognisance Richard owned a tenement called Astelyns, 2
messuages, 300 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture,
2 acres of woodland, and a rent of 7s. 3d in Ongar, Magdalen Laver,
North Weald Basset, Moreton, and Bobbingworth [Ongar Hundred, Essex].
+ + + + + + + + +
C 1/38/113
Scope and content
Thomas Wynslawe, of London, draper. v. Thomas Bodulgate: Manor of
Astlyns, sold by Sir Richard Veer, knight, to complainant, although
liable under a statute staple to Bodulgate.: Essex.
Covering dates 1433-1443, or more likely 1467-1472
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Douglas Richardson
Dec 15, 2011, 5:47:55 PM12/15/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following numerous items are taken from the online A2A Catalogue.
They relate to Sir Richard Vere, the husband of Margaret Percy, Lady
Grey, and to his step-daughter and son-in-law, Elizabeth [Grey] and
Thomas Bodulgate. The property which is the subject of these
documents is the manor of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex.
The documents show that in Aug. 1445 Sir Richard Vere, Knt., gave a
bond on the Statute Staple to his wife, Lady Margaret's half-brother,
Thomas Scales, Lord Scales, and to his wife's daughter, Elizabeth
Grey. Although not stated below, the bond was evidently in the amount
of 1,000 marks, as indicated by the documents presented in my first
post. Soon afterwards, on 3 Dec. 1445, the manor of Ashlyns (in High
Ongar), Essex was enfeoffed by Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, and two
others to Alice [Sergeaux], Countess of Oxford, and her son, Sir
Richard Vere. This record confirms once again that Sir Richard Vere,
husband of Margaret Percy, was a younger son of Sir Richard Vere,
enfeoffment [that is, 3 Dec 1445] is indicated by a Chancery
Proceeding I included in my first post, which lawsuit indicates that
Sir Richard Vere sued Robert Foulman, Esq. in the period, 1460-5,
regarding the "detention of a deed of feoffment of petitioner's manor
of Astelens [Ashlyns], made on his marriage with Margaret lady Gray."
Lady Grey's former husband, Sir Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor,
died in 1444.
The documents below show that in 1462 Sir Richard Vere sold the manor
of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex to Thomas Winslow, of London,
draper, although liable under a statute staple to Thomas Bodulgate
(husband of Elizabeth Grey). On 21 Dec 1466, Sir Richard Vere granted
a further release to the said Thomas Winslow. Regardless in Feb. 1469
Walter Writtle, Sheriff of Essex, delivered the "tenement" of Ashlyns,
Essex to Thomas Bodulgate and his wife, Elizabeth, evidently in relief
of the debt created by the bond back in 1445. As shown in my first
post, Thomas Winslow sued Thomas Bodulgate (husband of Sir Richard
Vere's step-daughter, Elizabeth) for the manor of Ashlyns. Presumably
Winslow lost the lawsuit as in August 1469 the documents below show
that Thomas Bodulgate and his wife, Elizabeth [Grey], conveyed the
manor of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex to Walter Wryttle (Writtle).
The manor of Ashlyns presumably passed into Walter Writtle's
possession at that point, as he held the manor at his death.
Thereafter there is no further involvement by either Sir Richard Vere
or the Bodulgates in the manor.
One other thing we learn from the documents below is that Sir Richard
Vere was living as late as 21 Dec. 1466.
'
Archival history:
On sale of the estate, all deeds, except Inquisition post-mortem R.
Hale (P18) were sent to Solicitors to be handed over to the purchaser
Related information: Original lease & release now held Essex R.O. (at
RCP-LEGAC/D/DU149 nos 4-5 (1988)
Administrative history:
The farm was settled on the College by Dr Baldwin Hamey
Contents:
TITLE DEEDS, LEASES and other documents
Bond on the Statute Staple from Sir Richard Veer to Thomas Lord Scales
and Lady Elizabeth Grey. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS BOX, TITLE DEEDS 1 2 Aug
1445
2 Seals.
Language: Latin
Humphry Duke of Cloucester, Walter Sheryngton & Richard Wentworth
enfeoffs Alice Countess of Oxford & Sir Richard Veer her son with the
Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 1a 3 Dec 1445
3 Seals
Language: Latin
Humphry Duke of Gloucester, Walter Sheryngton & Richard Wentworth
appoint Wm. More & Thos. Joye their Attorneys to deliver Seizen of
same Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 2 3 Dec 1445
3 Seals.
Language: Latin
Grant of Ashlyns from Sir Richard Veer to Thomas Lord Scales, Sir Milo
Stapylton & Ralph de la Pole. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 3 6 June
1446
Seal
Language: Latin
An Award of the Manor of Ashlyns by Piers Ardern, Baron of the
Exchequer to Sir Richard Veer. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 4 10
May 1455
2 Seals
Sir Thomas Tyrell, John Lenenthorpe, Wm. Terrell senr. Thomas
Skargehill, Ralph Grey & John Halls release Sir Richard Veer from all
claims in certain lands at Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 5
28 Feb 1456
6 Seals
Language: Latin
Release from same Parties as to Sir Richard Veer from all claims of
other Lands in Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 6 28 Feb 1456
6 Seals
Language: Latin
Bargain & Sale from Sir Richard Veer to Thomas Wynslow of the
Reversion of the Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 7
17 Nov 1462
Seal wanting.
Grant of the Manor of Ashlyns from Sir Mile Stapylton to Sir Richard
Veer and Margaret his wife. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 8 10 Feb
1464
Seal.
Language: Latin
Grant from Sir Richard Veer to Sir John Wedborn and John Wyn slow RCP-
LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 9 17 Sept 1464
Seal.
Language: Latin
Lease from Sir Richard Veer to John Warner for 7 years. RCP-LEGAC/
ASHLYNS, BDL. 3 29 September 1463
Seal.
Grant from Sir John Wedborn & John Wynslow to Sir Richard Veer for
life & Remainder to Tho. Wynslow & others. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE
DEEDS 10 22 Sept 1464
2 Seals
Language: Latin
Release from Sir Richard Veer to the said Thos. Wynslow & others & the
heirs of the said Thomas. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 11 21 Dec
1466
Seal
Language: Latin
Release from John Grene, Walter Wryttell & Wm. Chattock to Thos.
Wynslow, Morgan Buttiller & Martin Fetelyng of all claims in the Manor
of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 12 28 April 1469
3 Seals
Language: Latin
Release from Morgan Buttiller & Martin Fetelyng to the said Thos.
Wynslow of all claims in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE
DEEDS 13 28 July 1469
Seals
Language: Latin
An award by Elizabeth Lady Seales respecting the said Manor between
Thomas Bedulgate & Walter Wryttle. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 14
6 Aug 1469
Seal
Thomas Bodulgate & Elizabeth his wife Grant to Walter Wryttle. RCP-
LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 15 6 Aug 1469
2 Seals
Thomas Wynslow grants the Manor of Ashlyns to Henry Earl of Essex,
William Bourchier, Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer & John Wode. RCP-
LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 16 10 Aug 1469
Seal
Language: Latin
Thomas Wynslow Releases the Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier, Thos.
Bourchier. Robert Plomer and John Wode from all claims & demands in
the Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 17 11 Aug 1469
Seals
Language: Latin
Thomas Bodulgate & Elizabeth his wife Release Henry, Earl of Essex,
Wm. Bourchier, Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer, & John Wode from all
claims & Demands in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 18
11 Aug 1469
2 Seals
Language: Latin
Receipts from Thomas Bodulgate to Walter Wryttle each for 25 Marks.
RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 19 12 Aug 1469 - 6 Oct 1469
2 documents
Language: Latin
Thomas Burgh Releases the said Henry Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier,
Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer & John Wode from all claims & Demands
in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 20 8 Nov 1469
Seal
Language: Latin
Wm. Coryngton and others Release Henry Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier,
Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer & John Wode from all Claims & Demands
in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 21 18 Nov 1469
3 Seals
Language: Latin
The said Henry, Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier, Thomas Bourchier, Robert
Plomer & John Wode Enfeoff Catharine Wryttle for Life with the said
Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 22 26 Nov 1472
5 Seals
Language: Latin
Robert Plomer pursuant to the Will of W. Wryttle Grants the said Manor
to James Walsingham & Eleanor his Wife and Edw. Waldegrave & Grisild
his Wife. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 23 25 Feb 1510
Seal
Language: Latin
The following numerous items are taken from the online A2A Catalogue.
They relate to Sir Richard Vere, the husband of Margaret Percy, Lady
Grey, and to his step-daughter and son-in-law, Elizabeth [Grey] and
Thomas Bodulgate. The property which is the subject of these
documents is the manor of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex.
The documents show that in Aug. 1445 Sir Richard Vere, Knt., gave a
bond on the Statute Staple to his wife, Lady Margaret's half-brother,
Thomas Scales, Lord Scales, and to his wife's daughter, Elizabeth
Grey. Although not stated below, the bond was evidently in the amount
of 1,000 marks, as indicated by the documents presented in my first
post. Soon afterwards, on 3 Dec. 1445, the manor of Ashlyns (in High
Ongar), Essex was enfeoffed by Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, and two
others to Alice [Sergeaux], Countess of Oxford, and her son, Sir
Richard Vere. This record confirms once again that Sir Richard Vere,
husband of Margaret Percy, was a younger son of Sir Richard Vere,
K.G., 11th Earl of Oxford, by Alice, 3rd daughter of Richard Sergeaux,
Knt.
That Sir Richard Vere married Margaret Percy about the date of this
Knt.
enfeoffment [that is, 3 Dec 1445] is indicated by a Chancery
Proceeding I included in my first post, which lawsuit indicates that
Sir Richard Vere sued Robert Foulman, Esq. in the period, 1460-5,
regarding the "detention of a deed of feoffment of petitioner's manor
of Astelens [Ashlyns], made on his marriage with Margaret lady Gray."
Lady Grey's former husband, Sir Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor,
died in 1444.
The documents below show that in 1462 Sir Richard Vere sold the manor
of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex to Thomas Winslow, of London,
draper, although liable under a statute staple to Thomas Bodulgate
(husband of Elizabeth Grey). On 21 Dec 1466, Sir Richard Vere granted
a further release to the said Thomas Winslow. Regardless in Feb. 1469
Walter Writtle, Sheriff of Essex, delivered the "tenement" of Ashlyns,
Essex to Thomas Bodulgate and his wife, Elizabeth, evidently in relief
of the debt created by the bond back in 1445. As shown in my first
post, Thomas Winslow sued Thomas Bodulgate (husband of Sir Richard
Vere's step-daughter, Elizabeth) for the manor of Ashlyns. Presumably
Winslow lost the lawsuit as in August 1469 the documents below show
that Thomas Bodulgate and his wife, Elizabeth [Grey], conveyed the
manor of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex to Walter Wryttle (Writtle).
The manor of Ashlyns presumably passed into Walter Writtle's
possession at that point, as he held the manor at his death.
Thereafter there is no further involvement by either Sir Richard Vere
or the Bodulgates in the manor.
One other thing we learn from the documents below is that Sir Richard
Vere was living as late as 21 Dec. 1466.
'
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
ASHLYNS FARM, HIGH ONGAR, ESSEX [no ref. or date]
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Archival history:
On sale of the estate, all deeds, except Inquisition post-mortem R.
Hale (P18) were sent to Solicitors to be handed over to the purchaser
Related information: Original lease & release now held Essex R.O. (at
RCP-LEGAC/D/DU149 nos 4-5 (1988)
Administrative history:
The farm was settled on the College by Dr Baldwin Hamey
Contents:
TITLE DEEDS, LEASES and other documents
Bond on the Statute Staple from Sir Richard Veer to Thomas Lord Scales
and Lady Elizabeth Grey. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS BOX, TITLE DEEDS 1 2 Aug
1445
2 Seals.
Language: Latin
Humphry Duke of Cloucester, Walter Sheryngton & Richard Wentworth
enfeoffs Alice Countess of Oxford & Sir Richard Veer her son with the
Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 1a 3 Dec 1445
3 Seals
Language: Latin
Humphry Duke of Gloucester, Walter Sheryngton & Richard Wentworth
appoint Wm. More & Thos. Joye their Attorneys to deliver Seizen of
same Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 2 3 Dec 1445
3 Seals.
Language: Latin
Grant of Ashlyns from Sir Richard Veer to Thomas Lord Scales, Sir Milo
Stapylton & Ralph de la Pole. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 3 6 June
1446
Seal
Language: Latin
An Award of the Manor of Ashlyns by Piers Ardern, Baron of the
Exchequer to Sir Richard Veer. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 4 10
May 1455
2 Seals
Sir Thomas Tyrell, John Lenenthorpe, Wm. Terrell senr. Thomas
Skargehill, Ralph Grey & John Halls release Sir Richard Veer from all
claims in certain lands at Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 5
28 Feb 1456
6 Seals
Language: Latin
Release from same Parties as to Sir Richard Veer from all claims of
other Lands in Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 6 28 Feb 1456
6 Seals
Language: Latin
Bargain & Sale from Sir Richard Veer to Thomas Wynslow of the
Reversion of the Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 7
17 Nov 1462
Seal wanting.
Grant of the Manor of Ashlyns from Sir Mile Stapylton to Sir Richard
Veer and Margaret his wife. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 8 10 Feb
1464
Seal.
Language: Latin
Grant from Sir Richard Veer to Sir John Wedborn and John Wyn slow RCP-
LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 9 17 Sept 1464
Seal.
Language: Latin
Lease from Sir Richard Veer to John Warner for 7 years. RCP-LEGAC/
ASHLYNS, BDL. 3 29 September 1463
Seal.
Grant from Sir John Wedborn & John Wynslow to Sir Richard Veer for
life & Remainder to Tho. Wynslow & others. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE
DEEDS 10 22 Sept 1464
2 Seals
Language: Latin
Release from Sir Richard Veer to the said Thos. Wynslow & others & the
heirs of the said Thomas. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 11 21 Dec
1466
Seal
Language: Latin
Release from John Grene, Walter Wryttell & Wm. Chattock to Thos.
Wynslow, Morgan Buttiller & Martin Fetelyng of all claims in the Manor
of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 12 28 April 1469
3 Seals
Language: Latin
Release from Morgan Buttiller & Martin Fetelyng to the said Thos.
Wynslow of all claims in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE
DEEDS 13 28 July 1469
Seals
Language: Latin
An award by Elizabeth Lady Seales respecting the said Manor between
Thomas Bedulgate & Walter Wryttle. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 14
6 Aug 1469
Seal
Thomas Bodulgate & Elizabeth his wife Grant to Walter Wryttle. RCP-
LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 15 6 Aug 1469
2 Seals
Thomas Wynslow grants the Manor of Ashlyns to Henry Earl of Essex,
William Bourchier, Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer & John Wode. RCP-
LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 16 10 Aug 1469
Seal
Language: Latin
Thomas Wynslow Releases the Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier, Thos.
Bourchier. Robert Plomer and John Wode from all claims & demands in
the Manor of Ashlyns. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 17 11 Aug 1469
Seals
Language: Latin
Thomas Bodulgate & Elizabeth his wife Release Henry, Earl of Essex,
Wm. Bourchier, Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer, & John Wode from all
claims & Demands in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 18
11 Aug 1469
2 Seals
Language: Latin
Receipts from Thomas Bodulgate to Walter Wryttle each for 25 Marks.
RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 19 12 Aug 1469 - 6 Oct 1469
2 documents
Language: Latin
Thomas Burgh Releases the said Henry Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier,
Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer & John Wode from all claims & Demands
in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 20 8 Nov 1469
Seal
Language: Latin
Wm. Coryngton and others Release Henry Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier,
Thomas Bourchier, Robert Plomer & John Wode from all Claims & Demands
in the said Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 21 18 Nov 1469
3 Seals
Language: Latin
The said Henry, Earl of Essex, Wm. Bourchier, Thomas Bourchier, Robert
Plomer & John Wode Enfeoff Catharine Wryttle for Life with the said
Manor. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 22 26 Nov 1472
5 Seals
Language: Latin
Robert Plomer pursuant to the Will of W. Wryttle Grants the said Manor
to James Walsingham & Eleanor his Wife and Edw. Waldegrave & Grisild
his Wife. RCP-LEGAC/ASHLYNS TITLE DEEDS 23 25 Feb 1510
Seal
Language: Latin
Douglas Richardson
Dec 16, 2011, 8:49:54 AM12/16/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Further indication of Sir Richard Vere's correct place in the Vere
family pedigree is found in a letter written by John Vere, Earl of
Oxford to John Paston, which letter is dated ?1450. In that letter,
Earl John refers to "Sir Richard de Veer, knyght," as his “welbeloved
brothir.” See Gairdner, Paston Letters 2 (1904): 144, which may
The same letter is also referenced in Horrox, Fifteenth-Century
Attitudes (1994): 65, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oGo4AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA65.
Further indication of Sir Richard Vere's correct place in the Vere
family pedigree is found in a letter written by John Vere, Earl of
Oxford to John Paston, which letter is dated ?1450. In that letter,
Earl John refers to "Sir Richard de Veer, knyght," as his “welbeloved
brothir.” See Gairdner, Paston Letters 2 (1904): 144, which may
viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=R2MaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144
The same letter is also referenced in Horrox, Fifteenth-Century
Attitudes (1994): 65, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oGo4AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA65.
Douglas Richardson
Dec 17, 2011, 8:31:48 PM12/17/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my initial post on Sir Richard Vere, husband of Margaret Percy,
Lady Grey, I presented the evidence of his parentage as a correction
of Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 130 (sub Grey of Codnor).
However, this information is also an addition to the information
provided in Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 236, note c (sub Oxford),
which states that Richard Vere, 11th Earl of Oxford (died 1417), had
but two sons, John, 12th Earl, and Robert, a knight.
It is obvious now that Richard Vere, 11th Earl of Oxford, and his 2nd
wife, Alice Sergeaux, had a third son, namely Sir Richard Vere (living
1466), who married Margaret Percy, Lady Grey.
In my initial post on Sir Richard Vere, husband of Margaret Percy,
Lady Grey, I presented the evidence of his parentage as a correction
of Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 130 (sub Grey of Codnor).
However, this information is also an addition to the information
provided in Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 236, note c (sub Oxford),
which states that Richard Vere, 11th Earl of Oxford (died 1417), had
but two sons, John, 12th Earl, and Robert, a knight.
It is obvious now that Richard Vere, 11th Earl of Oxford, and his 2nd
wife, Alice Sergeaux, had a third son, namely Sir Richard Vere (living
1466), who married Margaret Percy, Lady Grey.
Douglas Richardson
Dec 18, 2011, 1:01:31 PM12/18/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
The various documents I posted this past week relating to Sir Richard
Vere, Knt. (living 1466), of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex reveal
that his wife, Margaret Percy, Lady Grey, had a daughter, Elizabeth
Grey, who married Thomas Bodulgate, living 1469. There is a well
written biography of Sir Thomas Bodulgate (1410-1471), of Tencreek,
Cornwall, King's esquire, lawyer, published in Wedgwood, House of
Parliament, 1 (1936): 87-88. That biography indicates that Sir Thomas
Bodulgate had a wife, Elizabeth, who re-married after his death to
John Welles, Esquire. I've posted a contemporary record further below
dated 1473 which indeed confirms that Elizabeth Grey married (2nd)
John Welles.
It would appear that Elizabeth (Grey) (Bodulgate) Welles died without
issue before 1496. I say that because on the death of her brother,
Sir Henry Grey, 7th Lord Grey of Codnor, in that year, his heirs were
found to be his three aunts, Elizabeth, Eleanor, and Lucy Grey, or
their representatives. Had Elizabeth (Grey) (Bodulgate) Welles been
living in 1496, or if she had left issue, she or they would have been
the heir(s) of her brother, Sir Henry Grey.
As far as I can tell from checking various accounts of the Grey family
of Codnor, Elizabeth (Grey) (Bodulgate) Welles is an all new
descendant of King Edward I of England. Elizabeth Grey possesses a
double descent from King Edward I as follows:
1. King Edward I of England, married (1st) Eleanor of Castile.
2. Joan of Acre, married (1st) Gilbert de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford.
3. Elizabeth de Clare, married (2nd) Thebaud de Verdun, Knt., 2nd Lord
Verdun.
4. Isabel de Verdun, married Henry de Ferrers, 2nd Lord Ferrers of
Groby.
5. Elizabeth de Ferrers, married (1st) David de Strathbogie, 12th Earl
of Atholl [in Scotland], 3rd Lord Strathbogie [in England].
6. Elizabeth Strathbogie, married (1st) Thomas de Percy, Knt.
7. Henry Percy of Atholl, Knt., of Harthill, Yorkshire, married
Elizabeth Bardolf.
8. Margaret Percy, married (1st) Henry Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Codnor.
9. Elizabeth Grey, married (1st) Thomas Bodulgate, Knt., of Tencreek,
Cornwall; (2nd) John Welles, Esq.
1. King Edward I of England, married (1st) Eleanor of Castile.
2. Joan of Acre, married (1st) Gilbert de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford.
3. Elizabeth de Clare, married (3rd) Roger Damory, Knt., Damory.
4. Elizabeth Damory, married John Bardolf, Knt., 3rd Lord Bardolf.
5. William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, married Agnes Poynings.
6. Elizabeth Bardolf, married (2nd) Henry Percy of Atholl, Knt., of
Harthill, Yorkshire.
7. Margaret Percy, married (1st) Henry Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Codnor.
8. Elizabeth Grey, married (1st) Thomas Bodulgate, Knt., of Tencreek,
Cornwall; (2nd) John Welles, Esq.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
SC 8/29/1448
Scope and content
Petitioners: William Shetford
Addressees: Commons of parliament
Places mentioned: Trecorn (Trecorme), Cornwall; Hamet (Hammet),
Cornwall; Douenant (Dannett), Cornwall; Deliowe (Deli), Cornwall;
Deliowbell (Delabole), Cornwall; Delioweboleyn [unidentified],
Cornwall; Deliowecarboleyn [unidentified], Cornwall; Lamelyn,
Cornwall; Barnet, [Hertfordshire]
Other people mentioned: William Bruyen, knight; Joan [Bruyen], sister
and heir of William Bruyen; Edward Shetford, grandfather of
petitioner; Piers [Shetford], father of petitioner; Alice [Bruyen],
sister and heir of William Bruyen; Thomas Bodulgate, kinsman and heir
to Alice Bruyen; Elizabeth [Bodulgate], wife of Thomas Bodulgate; John
Welles, current husband of Elizabeth Bodulgate; Isabel Rescarek,
widow; Joan Coryngton, widow
Nature of request: William Shetford states that his father was wrongly
disseised of his inheritance of half of certain manors in Cornwall by
Thomas Bodulgate, the heir to the other half, and that after Thomas'
death at the battle of Barnet, this disseisin has been continued by
his widow, Elizabeth and her new husband, John Welles, and also Isabel
Rescarek and Joan Coryngton. He asks the commons to ask the king, by
authority of parliament, to authorise the Chancellor and the Justices
of either Bench to call the parties before them and to examine their
right and title, with further provisions for the punishment of any
party found to have done wrong, and for his damages and security in
his possessions, if his title is found to be good.
Endorsement: Let it be sent to the Lords (on face).Let it be done as
is desired (on dorse).
Covering dates [1473]
Note This petition is enrolled on the roll of the parliament summoned
at Westminster in October 1472 (12 Edward IV) and prorogued a number
of times until January 1475 (Rot. Parl. vol. VI, pp.70a-71a).
According to p.70a, this petition was presented on 6 October, 13
Edward IV (1473).
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Former reference (Department) Parliamentary Petition 4027
Legal status Public Record(s)
The various documents I posted this past week relating to Sir Richard
Vere, Knt. (living 1466), of Ashlyns (in High Ongar), Essex reveal
that his wife, Margaret Percy, Lady Grey, had a daughter, Elizabeth
Grey, who married Thomas Bodulgate, living 1469. There is a well
written biography of Sir Thomas Bodulgate (1410-1471), of Tencreek,
Cornwall, King's esquire, lawyer, published in Wedgwood, House of
Parliament, 1 (1936): 87-88. That biography indicates that Sir Thomas
Bodulgate had a wife, Elizabeth, who re-married after his death to
John Welles, Esquire. I've posted a contemporary record further below
dated 1473 which indeed confirms that Elizabeth Grey married (2nd)
John Welles.
It would appear that Elizabeth (Grey) (Bodulgate) Welles died without
issue before 1496. I say that because on the death of her brother,
Sir Henry Grey, 7th Lord Grey of Codnor, in that year, his heirs were
found to be his three aunts, Elizabeth, Eleanor, and Lucy Grey, or
their representatives. Had Elizabeth (Grey) (Bodulgate) Welles been
living in 1496, or if she had left issue, she or they would have been
the heir(s) of her brother, Sir Henry Grey.
As far as I can tell from checking various accounts of the Grey family
of Codnor, Elizabeth (Grey) (Bodulgate) Welles is an all new
descendant of King Edward I of England. Elizabeth Grey possesses a
double descent from King Edward I as follows:
1. King Edward I of England, married (1st) Eleanor of Castile.
2. Joan of Acre, married (1st) Gilbert de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford.
3. Elizabeth de Clare, married (2nd) Thebaud de Verdun, Knt., 2nd Lord
Verdun.
4. Isabel de Verdun, married Henry de Ferrers, 2nd Lord Ferrers of
Groby.
5. Elizabeth de Ferrers, married (1st) David de Strathbogie, 12th Earl
of Atholl [in Scotland], 3rd Lord Strathbogie [in England].
6. Elizabeth Strathbogie, married (1st) Thomas de Percy, Knt.
7. Henry Percy of Atholl, Knt., of Harthill, Yorkshire, married
Elizabeth Bardolf.
8. Margaret Percy, married (1st) Henry Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Codnor.
9. Elizabeth Grey, married (1st) Thomas Bodulgate, Knt., of Tencreek,
Cornwall; (2nd) John Welles, Esq.
1. King Edward I of England, married (1st) Eleanor of Castile.
2. Joan of Acre, married (1st) Gilbert de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford.
3. Elizabeth de Clare, married (3rd) Roger Damory, Knt., Damory.
4. Elizabeth Damory, married John Bardolf, Knt., 3rd Lord Bardolf.
5. William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, married Agnes Poynings.
6. Elizabeth Bardolf, married (2nd) Henry Percy of Atholl, Knt., of
Harthill, Yorkshire.
7. Margaret Percy, married (1st) Henry Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Codnor.
8. Elizabeth Grey, married (1st) Thomas Bodulgate, Knt., of Tencreek,
Cornwall; (2nd) John Welles, Esq.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Source: National Archives Catalogue
SC 8/29/1448
Scope and content
Petitioners: William Shetford
Addressees: Commons of parliament
Places mentioned: Trecorn (Trecorme), Cornwall; Hamet (Hammet),
Cornwall; Douenant (Dannett), Cornwall; Deliowe (Deli), Cornwall;
Deliowbell (Delabole), Cornwall; Delioweboleyn [unidentified],
Cornwall; Deliowecarboleyn [unidentified], Cornwall; Lamelyn,
Cornwall; Barnet, [Hertfordshire]
Other people mentioned: William Bruyen, knight; Joan [Bruyen], sister
and heir of William Bruyen; Edward Shetford, grandfather of
petitioner; Piers [Shetford], father of petitioner; Alice [Bruyen],
sister and heir of William Bruyen; Thomas Bodulgate, kinsman and heir
to Alice Bruyen; Elizabeth [Bodulgate], wife of Thomas Bodulgate; John
Welles, current husband of Elizabeth Bodulgate; Isabel Rescarek,
widow; Joan Coryngton, widow
Nature of request: William Shetford states that his father was wrongly
disseised of his inheritance of half of certain manors in Cornwall by
Thomas Bodulgate, the heir to the other half, and that after Thomas'
death at the battle of Barnet, this disseisin has been continued by
his widow, Elizabeth and her new husband, John Welles, and also Isabel
Rescarek and Joan Coryngton. He asks the commons to ask the king, by
authority of parliament, to authorise the Chancellor and the Justices
of either Bench to call the parties before them and to examine their
right and title, with further provisions for the punishment of any
party found to have done wrong, and for his damages and security in
his possessions, if his title is found to be good.
Endorsement: Let it be sent to the Lords (on face).Let it be done as
is desired (on dorse).
Covering dates [1473]
Note This petition is enrolled on the roll of the parliament summoned
at Westminster in October 1472 (12 Edward IV) and prorogued a number
of times until January 1475 (Rot. Parl. vol. VI, pp.70a-71a).
According to p.70a, this petition was presented on 6 October, 13
Edward IV (1473).
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Legal status Public Record(s)
Message has been deleted
Janet Wolfe
Dec 19, 2011, 2:45:52 AM12/19/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a post
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-12/132423129
1 on 12/18/2011 , Douglas Richardson characterized Elizabeth (Grey)
(Bodulgate) Welles as "an all new descendant of King Edward I of England." I
am curious about the concept of a new descendant from Edward I. I assume he
means a person whose descent from Edward I hasn't been discussed or
published previously.
If so, then I wonder if I should characterize the children of Thomas and
Mary (Knightley) Barnarndiston, and their descendants, as new descendants of
Edward I (assuming no one finds an error in the line I described in a
previous post
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-12/132349466
6). I have not made an exhaustive search of all the published descriptions
of the Barnardiston family, but I did not, for example, find a mention of
the descent from Edward I in the 60-page article "Kedington, alias Ketton,
and the Barnardiston Family" by Richard Almack
(http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=Kedingt
on,+alias+Ketton,+and+the+Barnardiston+Family&source=bl&ots=YjBOXMQxQ9&sig=_
2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6AE
wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston%
20Family&f=false) in Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology,
Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
Knightley (See
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knightley-s
ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
(http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knightley-
valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
(Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
Parliament website.)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-12/132423129
1 on 12/18/2011 , Douglas Richardson characterized Elizabeth (Grey)
(Bodulgate) Welles as "an all new descendant of King Edward I of England." I
am curious about the concept of a new descendant from Edward I. I assume he
means a person whose descent from Edward I hasn't been discussed or
published previously.
If so, then I wonder if I should characterize the children of Thomas and
Mary (Knightley) Barnarndiston, and their descendants, as new descendants of
Edward I (assuming no one finds an error in the line I described in a
previous post
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-12/132349466
6). I have not made an exhaustive search of all the published descriptions
of the Barnardiston family, but I did not, for example, find a mention of
the descent from Edward I in the 60-page article "Kedington, alias Ketton,
and the Barnardiston Family" by Richard Almack
(http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=Kedingt
on,+alias+Ketton,+and+the+Barnardiston+Family&source=bl&ots=YjBOXMQxQ9&sig=_
2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6AE
wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston%
20Family&f=false) in Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology,
Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
Knightley (See
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knightley-s
ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
(http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knightley-
valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
(Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
Parliament website.)
Janet Wolfe
Dec 19, 2011, 2:50:49 AM12/19/11
to janw...@umich.edu, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sorry, the web links look ok when I'm typing my email, but they seem to get
formatted incorrectly in the post. Perhaps they are too long.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
formatted incorrectly in the post. Perhaps they are too long.
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Janet Wolfe
Dec 19, 2011, 3:10:22 PM12/19/11
to Janet Wolfe, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thanks to a very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123 (all one needs is the
book id and the page number fields from the longer url).
shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123 (all one needs is the
book id and the page number fields from the longer url).
Christopher Ingham
Dec 19, 2011, 3:27:38 PM12/19/11
to
On Dec 19, 3:10 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
> Thanks to a very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
> shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123(all one needs is the
> Thanks to a very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
> shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
>
> book id and the page number fields from the longer url).
>
Annoyingly, links to Google Books apparently now only take one to the
>
front cover.
Christopher Ingham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:janwo...@umich.edu]
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:51 AM
> To: 'janwo...@umich.edu'; 'gen-medie...@rootsweb.com'
> Subject: RE: New Descendants of Edward I
>
> Sorry, the web links look ok when I'm typing my email, but they seem to get
> formatted incorrectly in the post. Perhaps they are too long.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
> [mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:46 AM
> To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: New Descendants of Edward I
>
> In a posthttp://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-12/13...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:janwo...@umich.edu]
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:51 AM
> To: 'janwo...@umich.edu'; 'gen-medie...@rootsweb.com'
> Subject: RE: New Descendants of Edward I
>
> Sorry, the web links look ok when I'm typing my email, but they seem to get
> formatted incorrectly in the post. Perhaps they are too long.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
> [mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:46 AM
> To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: New Descendants of Edward I
>
> 1 on 12/18/2011 , Douglas Richardson characterized Elizabeth (Grey)
> (Bodulgate) Welles as "an all new descendant of King Edward I of England." I
> am curious about the concept of a new descendant from Edward I. I assume he
> means a person whose descent from Edward I hasn't been discussed or
> published previously.
>
> If so, then I wonder if I should characterize the children of Thomas and
> Mary (Knightley) Barnarndiston, and their descendants, as new descendants of
> Edward I (assuming no one finds an error in the line I described in a
> previous posthttp://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-12/13...
> (Bodulgate) Welles as "an all new descendant of King Edward I of England." I
> am curious about the concept of a new descendant from Edward I. I assume he
> means a person whose descent from Edward I hasn't been discussed or
> published previously.
>
> If so, then I wonder if I should characterize the children of Thomas and
> Mary (Knightley) Barnarndiston, and their descendants, as new descendants of
> Edward I (assuming no one finds an error in the line I described in a
> 6). I have not made an exhaustive search of all the published descriptions
> of the Barnardiston family, but I did not, for example, find a mention of
> the descent from Edward I in the 60-page article "Kedington, alias Ketton,
> and the Barnardiston Family" by Richard Almack
> (http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=K...
> of the Barnardiston family, but I did not, for example, find a mention of
> the descent from Edward I in the 60-page article "Kedington, alias Ketton,
> and the Barnardiston Family" by Richard Almack
> on,+alias+Ketton,+and+the+Barnardiston+Family&source=bl&ots=YjBOXMQxQ9&sig=_
> 2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6AE
> wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston%
> 20Family&f=false) in Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology,
> Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
> many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
> example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
> line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
> Knightley (Seehttp://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
> Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
> many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
> example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
> line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
> ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
> (http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
> valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
> second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
> (Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
> Parliament website.)
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
> (Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
> Parliament website.)
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John Dobson
Dec 19, 2011, 3:38:27 PM12/19/11
to Christopher Ingham, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Hi Christopher,
It looks as if your email program deleted a space between the URL and the next word in Janet's message.
This works for me (and I'm in Canada):
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
>>> Christopher Ingham <christop...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 2:27 PM >>>
> on,+alias+Ketton,+and+the+Barnardiston+Family&source=bl&ots=YjBOXMQxQ9&sig=-_
> 2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6A-E
> wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston-%
It looks as if your email program deleted a space between the URL and the next word in Janet's message.
This works for me (and I'm in Canada):
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
>>> Christopher Ingham <christop...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 2:27 PM >>>
> 2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6A-E
> wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston-%
> 20Family&f=false) in Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology,
> Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
> many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
> example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
> line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
> Knightley (Seehttp://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
> ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
> (http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
> valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
> second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
> (Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
> Parliament website.)
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
> many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
> example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
> line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
> Knightley (Seehttp://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
> ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
> (http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
> valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
> second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
> (Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
> Parliament website.)
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
-------------------------------
Wjhonson
Dec 19, 2011, 3:38:47 PM12/19/11
to christop...@comcast.net, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Christopher pay attention to the URL that shows up.
The URL linked below is including the word "(all" you have to manually remove that.
The URL should END with the page field and that's all
Nothing else.
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Ingham <christop...@comcast.net>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 19, 2011 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: New Descendants of Edward I
On Dec 19, 3:10 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
Thanks to a very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123(all one needs is the
book id and the page number fields from the longer url).
nnoyingly, links to Google Books apparently now only take one to the
2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6A?E
wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston?%
20Family&f=false) in Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology,
Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
Knightley (Seehttp://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
(http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
(Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
Parliament website.)
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
------------------------------
Statistics, and Natural History 4 (1864):123-182. This article discusses
many of the descendants of Thomas and Mary (Knightley) Barnardiston (for
example, the "patriot" Sir Nathanial, the first "roundhead" Sir Samuel, a
line of baronets, etc.). Similarly, Mary Knightley's father Richard
Knightley (Seehttp://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
ir-richard-1533-1615) and her brother Valentine
(http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/knig...
valentine-1555-1618) share this descent from Edward I. (Richard Knightley's
second wife was Elizabeth a daughter of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.)
(Many Knightley and Barnardiston bios can be read on the History of
Parliament website.)
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message
Christopher Ingham
Dec 19, 2011, 3:59:27 PM12/19/11
to
On Dec 19, 3:38 pm, "John Dobson" <j.dob...@uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
> Hi Christopher,
>
> It looks as if your email program deleted a space between the URL and the next word in Janet's message.
>
> This works for me (and I'm in Canada):
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123
>
It doesn't work for me (in the USA), although prior to yesterday it
> Hi Christopher,
>
> It looks as if your email program deleted a space between the URL and the next word in Janet's message.
>
> This works for me (and I'm in Canada):
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123
>
would have. Even my saved links to specific pages formatted in this
way direct me the front cover. I have no idea why this is.
Christopher Ingham
>
> Best wishes,
> John Blythe Dobson
>
> >>> Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 2:27 PM >>>
> Best wishes,
> John Blythe Dobson
>
>
> On Dec 19, 3:10 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:> Thanks to a very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
> > shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123(allone needs is the
> On Dec 19, 3:10 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:> Thanks to a very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
> > shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
>
> > 2dcCIBNScffT6xT4iu1z3mSaNY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c9_uTonrFJPVgAfTpoHxCA&ved=0CB4Q6A-E
> > wAA#v=onepage&q=Kedington%2C%20alias%20Ketton%2C%20and%20the%20Barnardiston-%
Janet Wolfe
Dec 19, 2011, 4:21:32 PM12/19/11
to Christopher Ingham, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Hi Christopher, it works for me in the U.S. (i.e., the url goes to the right
page in the book). I did notice that the standard Google book page looks
different. I think this started sometime during the past week. Perhaps
Google is working on a new format and there are still some display glitches.
What one sees may depend on the operating system and browser one uses.
Google must use something like frames, because the url typically does not
change as one pages through a book. I am using Windows 7 and IE 9. Recall
the trouble a user had a week or two ago with finding the download button.
Then a day or two later it worked. In my browser, the download button is now
in the tools menu (accessed via the icon that looks like a gear just above
and to the right of the book image, not the similar tools icon that is part
of the browser program).
page in the book). I did notice that the standard Google book page looks
different. I think this started sometime during the past week. Perhaps
Google is working on a new format and there are still some display glitches.
What one sees may depend on the operating system and browser one uses.
Google must use something like frames, because the url typically does not
change as one pages through a book. I am using Windows 7 and IE 9. Recall
the trouble a user had a week or two ago with finding the download button.
Then a day or two later it worked. In my browser, the download button is now
in the tools menu (accessed via the icon that looks like a gear just above
and to the right of the book image, not the similar tools icon that is part
of the browser program).
Christopher Ingham
Dec 19, 2011, 4:42:35 PM12/19/11
to
On Dec 19, 4:21 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
> Hi Christopher, it works for me in the U.S. (i.e., the url goes to the right
> page in the book). I did notice that the standard Google book page looks
> different. I think this started sometime during the past week. Perhaps
> Google is working on a new format and there are still some display glitches.
> What one sees may depend on the operating system and browser one uses.
> Google must use something like frames, because the url typically does not
> change as one pages through a book. I am using Windows 7 and IE 9. Recall
> the trouble a user had a week or two ago with finding the download button.
> Then a day or two later it worked. In my browser, the download button is now
> in the tools menu (accessed via the icon that looks like a gear just above
> and to the right of the book image, not the similar tools icon that is part
> of the browser program).
>
Thanks for the info. I’ve noticed for the last few days several new
> Hi Christopher, it works for me in the U.S. (i.e., the url goes to the right
> page in the book). I did notice that the standard Google book page looks
> different. I think this started sometime during the past week. Perhaps
> Google is working on a new format and there are still some display glitches.
> What one sees may depend on the operating system and browser one uses.
> Google must use something like frames, because the url typically does not
> change as one pages through a book. I am using Windows 7 and IE 9. Recall
> the trouble a user had a week or two ago with finding the download button.
> Then a day or two later it worked. In my browser, the download button is now
> in the tools menu (accessed via the icon that looks like a gear just above
> and to the right of the book image, not the similar tools icon that is part
> of the browser program).
>
display features, some which seem to be inaccurately disposed to the
extent that they partially conceal and /or block access to other data
and/or features. For example, if there is only one search result, the
upper frame of the page display partially conceals the results text
and prevents linking to the specific page. Hopefully, as you say,
these are glitches needing to be worked out. I hope it’s not because
of incompatibility with my Windows XP (which regularly receives new
program installations).
Christopher Ingham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
>
> [mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Ingham
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 3:59 PM
> To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: New Descendants of Edward I
>
> On Dec 19, 3:38 pm, "John Dobson" <j.dob...@uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
> > Hi Christopher,
>
> > It looks as if your email program deleted a space between the URL and the
> next word in Janet's message.
>
> > This works for me (and I'm in Canada):
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123
>
> It doesn't work for me (in the USA), although prior to yesterday it
> would have. Even my saved links to specific pages formatted in this
> way direct me the front cover. I have no idea why this is.
>
> Christopher Ingham
>
> > Best wishes,
> > John Blythe Dobson
>
> > >>> Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 2:27 PM
>
> > On Dec 19, 3:10 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:> Thanks to a
> very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
> > > shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
>
> > >http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123(alloneneeds is
>
> On Dec 19, 3:38 pm, "John Dobson" <j.dob...@uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
> > Hi Christopher,
>
> > It looks as if your email program deleted a space between the URL and the
> next word in Janet's message.
>
> > This works for me (and I'm in Canada):
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123
>
> It doesn't work for me (in the USA), although prior to yesterday it
> would have. Even my saved links to specific pages formatted in this
> way direct me the front cover. I have no idea why this is.
>
> Christopher Ingham
>
> > Best wishes,
> > John Blythe Dobson
>
> > >>> Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 2:27 PM
>
> > On Dec 19, 3:10 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:> Thanks to a
> very helpful suggestion from Will Johnson, I can now provide a
> > > shorter url for the Barnardiston article in the Suffolk journal:
>
> the
> > > book id and the page number fields from the longer url).
>
> > Annoyingly, links to Google Books apparently now only take one to the
> > front cover.
>
> > Christopher Ingham- Hide quoted text -
> > > book id and the page number fields from the longer url).
>
> > Annoyingly, links to Google Books apparently now only take one to the
> > front cover.
>
John Dobson
Dec 19, 2011, 5:00:58 PM12/19/11
to Christopher Ingham, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I just noticed something interesting. If you view the source code for
the page that Janet mentioned
(http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ), you can see a list of
all the pages in the book. Part of this sequence reads:
PA26
PA26-IA1
PA26-IA2
PA27
This reveals that there are two unnumbered inserts between pages 26 and
27. When using the page navigation buttons, these both simply show as
"Page 26." But knowing the exact references, it is possible to construct
durable links to them, such as:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26-IA1
This particular book has many such inserts, so it's nice to have a way
to link to them directly.
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
>>> Christopher Ingham <christop...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 3:42
PM >>>
the page that Janet mentioned
(http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ), you can see a list of
all the pages in the book. Part of this sequence reads:
PA26
PA26-IA1
PA26-IA2
PA27
This reveals that there are two unnumbered inserts between pages 26 and
27. When using the page navigation buttons, these both simply show as
"Page 26." But knowing the exact references, it is possible to construct
durable links to them, such as:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26-IA1
This particular book has many such inserts, so it's nice to have a way
to link to them directly.
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
PM >>>
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
Christopher Ingham
Dec 19, 2011, 5:09:32 PM12/19/11
to
On Dec 19, 5:00 pm, "John Dobson" <j.dob...@uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
> I just noticed something interesting. If you view the source code for
> the page that Janet mentioned
> (http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ), you can see a list of
> all the pages in the book. Part of this sequence reads:
> PA26
> PA26-IA1
> PA26-IA2
> PA27
>
> This reveals that there are two unnumbered inserts between pages 26 and
> 27. When using the page navigation buttons, these both simply show as
> "Page 26." But knowing the exact references, it is possible to construct
> durable links to them, such as:
>
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26-IA1
>
> This particular book has many such inserts, so it's nice to have a way
> to link to them directly.
>
> Best wishes,
> John Blythe Dobson
>
I'll keep your imformation in mind; but as of this moment your link
> I just noticed something interesting. If you view the source code for
> the page that Janet mentioned
> (http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ), you can see a list of
> all the pages in the book. Part of this sequence reads:
> PA26
> PA26-IA1
> PA26-IA2
> PA27
>
> This reveals that there are two unnumbered inserts between pages 26 and
> 27. When using the page navigation buttons, these both simply show as
> "Page 26." But knowing the exact references, it is possible to construct
> durable links to them, such as:
>
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26-IA1
>
> This particular book has many such inserts, so it's nice to have a way
> to link to them directly.
>
> Best wishes,
> John Blythe Dobson
>
directs me to the "About this book" page.
Christopher Ingham
>
> >>> Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 3:42
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Janet Wolfe
Dec 19, 2011, 5:10:56 PM12/19/11
to John Dobson, Christopher Ingham, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Very clever!! Thanks for noticing and posting this.
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Dobson
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 5:01 PM
To: Christopher Ingham; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: New Descendants of Edward I
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Dobson
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 5:01 PM
To: Christopher Ingham; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: New Descendants of Edward I
I just noticed something interesting. If you view the source code for
the page that Janet mentioned
(http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ), you can see a list of
all the pages in the book. Part of this sequence reads:
PA26
PA26-IA1
PA26-IA2
PA27
This reveals that there are two unnumbered inserts between pages 26 and
27. When using the page navigation buttons, these both simply show as
"Page 26." But knowing the exact references, it is possible to construct
durable links to them, such as:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26-IA1
This particular book has many such inserts, so it's nice to have a way
to link to them directly.
the page that Janet mentioned
(http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ), you can see a list of
all the pages in the book. Part of this sequence reads:
PA26
PA26-IA1
PA26-IA2
PA27
This reveals that there are two unnumbered inserts between pages 26 and
27. When using the page navigation buttons, these both simply show as
"Page 26." But knowing the exact references, it is possible to construct
durable links to them, such as:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=n_UGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26-IA1
This particular book has many such inserts, so it's nice to have a way
to link to them directly.
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
John Blythe Dobson
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Janet Wolfe
Dec 19, 2011, 5:22:57 PM12/19/11
to Christopher Ingham, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Now, back to the original question in this post. Are the Knightleys and
Barnardistons "new" descendants of Edward I? By that I mean, descendants
whose descent from Edward I had not previously been discussed in published
accounts of the families.
Is someone collecting a list of such "new" descendants for some purpose? I
ask because in a post with subject "King Edward I's new descendant,
Elizabeth Grey, wife of Thomas Bodulgate, Knt., and John Welles, Esq." on
12/18/2011, the poster emphasized that Elizabeth Grey was "an all new
descendant" of Edward I, while also noting that this Elizabeth seems to have
died without issue.
I still wonder if a previously unnoticed Knightley or Barnardiston
descendant may be identified among the early New England colonists. Somehow
it would seem odd for these two families to have been prominent supporters
of the Puritans and not to have had some descendant make his or her way to
the New World. On the other hand, I do suppose researchers have looked for
such a possibility because several Barnardiston wills were published in the
Register more than a hundred years ago. (I have not been carefully looking
because my immigrant in this line arrived much later.)
Barnardistons "new" descendants of Edward I? By that I mean, descendants
whose descent from Edward I had not previously been discussed in published
accounts of the families.
Is someone collecting a list of such "new" descendants for some purpose? I
ask because in a post with subject "King Edward I's new descendant,
Elizabeth Grey, wife of Thomas Bodulgate, Knt., and John Welles, Esq." on
12/18/2011, the poster emphasized that Elizabeth Grey was "an all new
descendant" of Edward I, while also noting that this Elizabeth seems to have
died without issue.
I still wonder if a previously unnoticed Knightley or Barnardiston
descendant may be identified among the early New England colonists. Somehow
it would seem odd for these two families to have been prominent supporters
of the Puritans and not to have had some descendant make his or her way to
the New World. On the other hand, I do suppose researchers have looked for
such a possibility because several Barnardiston wills were published in the
Register more than a hundred years ago. (I have not been carefully looking
because my immigrant in this line arrived much later.)
John Dobson
Dec 19, 2011, 5:31:37 PM12/19/11
to Christopher Ingham, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Hi Christopher,
I'm mystified as to why this isn't working for you. It works in Google
Chrome (unsurprisingly), as well as the latest versions of I.E. and
Firefox, even though some members of this group have reported
difficulties in using Firefox with Google Books.
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
>>> Christopher Ingham <christop...@comcast.net> 19-Dec-11 4:09
PM >>>
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
I'm mystified as to why this isn't working for you. It works in Google
Chrome (unsurprisingly), as well as the latest versions of I.E. and
Firefox, even though some members of this group have reported
difficulties in using Firefox with Google Books.
Best wishes,
John Blythe Dobson
PM >>>
Janet Wolfe
Dec 21, 2011, 1:12:40 PM12/21/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In addition to the Barnardiston descent from Edward I via Mary Knightley, I
have noticed that published pedigrees and several other works provide a
descent for the Barnardiston family from Edward III.
1. John of Gaunt with Marie de Saint Hilaire de Hainault
2. Blanche married about 1381 Thomas Morieux of Thorp Morieux, Cosford,
Suffolk
3. Elizabeth Morieux married Edmund Lucas of Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
4. John Lucas married Maud or Christian Brampton, daughter of Walter
Brampton
5. Edmund Lucas
5. John Lucas
6. Thomas Lucas married Elizabeth Kemys, daughter of John Kemys of Raglan,
Monmouthshire, Wales
7. Anne Lucas married Thomas Barnardiston
I have not yet studied all of the claims in this pedigree but secondary
sources quote documents discussing generation 2 (and distinguish this
Blanche from Katherine Swynford's daughter of the same name).
The Barnardiston pedigree continues as follows:
8. Thomas Barnardiston married Mary Walsingham, daughter of Edmund
Walsingham (Lieutenant of the Tower, see History of Parliament)
9. Thomas Barnardiston married Elizabeth Hanchet, daughter of Thomas Hanchet
10. Thomas Barnardiston married Mary Knightley, etc.
have noticed that published pedigrees and several other works provide a
descent for the Barnardiston family from Edward III.
1. John of Gaunt with Marie de Saint Hilaire de Hainault
2. Blanche married about 1381 Thomas Morieux of Thorp Morieux, Cosford,
Suffolk
3. Elizabeth Morieux married Edmund Lucas of Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
4. John Lucas married Maud or Christian Brampton, daughter of Walter
Brampton
5. Edmund Lucas
5. John Lucas
6. Thomas Lucas married Elizabeth Kemys, daughter of John Kemys of Raglan,
Monmouthshire, Wales
7. Anne Lucas married Thomas Barnardiston
I have not yet studied all of the claims in this pedigree but secondary
sources quote documents discussing generation 2 (and distinguish this
Blanche from Katherine Swynford's daughter of the same name).
The Barnardiston pedigree continues as follows:
8. Thomas Barnardiston married Mary Walsingham, daughter of Edmund
Walsingham (Lieutenant of the Tower, see History of Parliament)
9. Thomas Barnardiston married Elizabeth Hanchet, daughter of Thomas Hanchet
10. Thomas Barnardiston married Mary Knightley, etc.
Janet Wolfe
Dec 21, 2011, 1:14:50 PM12/21/11
to janw...@umich.edu, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This didn't get a proper link in the archives website, so I'll post it
again.
again.
-------------------------------
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Janet Wolfe
Dec 21, 2011, 2:23:01 PM12/21/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Visitation of Essex http://books.google.com/books?id=0m1KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235
(also see p. 71)
Visitation of Suffolk
http://www.archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft
(see Lucas and Barnardiston pedigrees, which do not include the earlier
Lucas generations)
I see I have two generations numbered 5, oops!
There are a number of other books that discuss the Lucas family (Google
Thomas Morieux for some of them, also the place names). I don't recall
seeing specific evidence for generations 4-6 that did not rely on the
visitation pedigrees, but there may be several land records mentioned in the
books that are mostly about the places the Lucas family lived. Sorry I don't
have the links handy at the moment. I'll have to study this family when I
have time after the holidays. Meanwhile maybe someone else will notice
something to confirm or disprove the steps in this descent. I haven't even
started to look at court and land records, IPMs, or Patent Rolls, etc., yet.
From: Wjhonson [mailto:wjho...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:21 PM
To: janw...@umich.edu
Subject: Re: Barnardiston Descent from Edward III?
Cite your source exactly for 4 to 5 to 6 below This is problematic
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:janw...@umich.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:15 PM
To: janw...@umich.edu; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Barnardiston Descent from Edward III?
This didn't get a proper link in the archives website, so I'll post it
again.
(also see p. 71)
Visitation of Suffolk
http://www.archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft
(see Lucas and Barnardiston pedigrees, which do not include the earlier
Lucas generations)
I see I have two generations numbered 5, oops!
There are a number of other books that discuss the Lucas family (Google
Thomas Morieux for some of them, also the place names). I don't recall
seeing specific evidence for generations 4-6 that did not rely on the
visitation pedigrees, but there may be several land records mentioned in the
books that are mostly about the places the Lucas family lived. Sorry I don't
have the links handy at the moment. I'll have to study this family when I
have time after the holidays. Meanwhile maybe someone else will notice
something to confirm or disprove the steps in this descent. I haven't even
started to look at court and land records, IPMs, or Patent Rolls, etc., yet.
From: Wjhonson [mailto:wjho...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:21 PM
To: janw...@umich.edu
Subject: Re: Barnardiston Descent from Edward III?
Cite your source exactly for 4 to 5 to 6 below This is problematic
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:janw...@umich.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:15 PM
To: janw...@umich.edu; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Barnardiston Descent from Edward III?
This didn't get a proper link in the archives website, so I'll post it
again.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
John
Dec 21, 2011, 5:27:45 PM12/21/11
to
Annabelle Kemp (1964). Among other things, this discusses the
ownership of properties by the Lucases which appears to confirm the
visitation pedigree of the family.
The problem with this descent, however, is in the connection to John
of Gaunt. The Lucas visitation pedigree says that Edmund Lucas
(living ca. 1359) married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Morieux -
not Sir Thomas. Sir Thomas didn't marry the natural daughter of John
of Gaunt until 1381, and he died in 1387 without issue (his heir was
his sister). I don't what the connection, if any, was between Sir
John and Sir Thomas Morieux, but Sir Thomas was clearly not the
ancestor of the Lucas family.
Janet Wolfe
Dec 21, 2011, 6:43:23 PM12/21/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
John, thanks for the clarifications and for the citation to the Lucas
Genealogy by Annabelle Kemp. I ordered it from interlibrary loan to read
next year. Does Kemp quote the IPM of Thomas Morieux, or is it published
somewhere? (I'll be pleased if the John of Gaunt descent for the Lucas wife
is firmly contradicted.) Various versions of the Lucas pedigree give the
Lucas wife's father's name as John or Thomas Morieux. Chronologically, I
think it would make sense for the Lucas wife to have belonged to an earlier
generation of the Morieux family.
Genealogy by Annabelle Kemp. I ordered it from interlibrary loan to read
next year. Does Kemp quote the IPM of Thomas Morieux, or is it published
somewhere? (I'll be pleased if the John of Gaunt descent for the Lucas wife
is firmly contradicted.) Various versions of the Lucas pedigree give the
Lucas wife's father's name as John or Thomas Morieux. Chronologically, I
think it would make sense for the Lucas wife to have belonged to an earlier
generation of the Morieux family.
John
Dec 21, 2011, 7:11:11 PM12/21/11
to
On Dec 21, 3:43 pm, "Janet Wolfe" <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
> John, thanks for the clarifications and for the citation to the Lucas
> Genealogy by Annabelle Kemp. I ordered it from interlibrary loan to read
> next year. Does Kemp quote the IPM of Thomas Morieux, or is it published
> somewhere? (I'll be pleased if the John of Gaunt descent for the Lucas wife
> is firmly contradicted.) Various versions of the Lucas pedigree give the
> Lucas wife's father's name as John or Thomas Morieux. Chronologically, I
> think it would make sense for the Lucas wife to have belonged to an earlier
> generation of the Morieux family.
>
> John, thanks for the clarifications and for the citation to the Lucas
> Genealogy by Annabelle Kemp. I ordered it from interlibrary loan to read
> next year. Does Kemp quote the IPM of Thomas Morieux, or is it published
> somewhere? (I'll be pleased if the John of Gaunt descent for the Lucas wife
> is firmly contradicted.) Various versions of the Lucas pedigree give the
> Lucas wife's father's name as John or Thomas Morieux. Chronologically, I
> think it would make sense for the Lucas wife to have belonged to an earlier
> generation of the Morieux family.
>
> For information on the Lucas family line, see "Lucas Genealogy", by
> Annabelle Kemp (1964). Among other things, this discusses the ownership of
> properties by the Lucases which appears to confirm the visitation pedigree
> of the family.
>
> The problem with this descent, however, is in the connection to John of
> Gaunt. The Lucas visitation pedigree says that Edmund Lucas (living ca.
> 1359) married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Morieux - not Sir Thomas. Sir
> Thomas didn't marry the natural daughter of John of Gaunt until 1381, and he
> died in 1387 without issue (his heir was his sister). I don't what the
> connection, if any, was between Sir John and Sir Thomas Morieux, but Sir
> Thomas was clearly not the ancestor of the Lucas family.
Kemp does not quote any IPM for Sir Thomas Morieux, nor does she
> Annabelle Kemp (1964). Among other things, this discusses the ownership of
> properties by the Lucases which appears to confirm the visitation pedigree
> of the family.
>
> The problem with this descent, however, is in the connection to John of
> Gaunt. The Lucas visitation pedigree says that Edmund Lucas (living ca.
> 1359) married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Morieux - not Sir Thomas. Sir
> Thomas didn't marry the natural daughter of John of Gaunt until 1381, and he
> died in 1387 without issue (his heir was his sister). I don't what the
> connection, if any, was between Sir John and Sir Thomas Morieux, but Sir
> Thomas was clearly not the ancestor of the Lucas family.
connect him the daughter of John of Gaunt. She is a source which
refers to Elizabeth's father as Sir Thomas or John, and she also says
that the marriage of Edmund Lucas and Elizabeth Morieux took place in
1360 (citing a parish register, I believe). So Clearly Elizabeth
cannot be the daughter of Sir Thomas who married John of Gaunt's
daughter in 1381.
Douglas Richardson
Dec 23, 2011, 2:13:05 PM12/23/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my original post in this thread, I showed that Complete Peerage, 6
(1926): 130 (sub Grey) stated in error that Sir Richard Vere (2nd
husband of Margaret Percy, Lady Grey) was a younger son of John, 12th
Earl of Oxford. Sir Richard Vere was actually Earl John's brother.
Since my original post, I've determined that the same incorrect
information regarding Sir Richard Vere's parentage appears in Complete
Peerage, 1 (1910): 309 (sub Atholl).
Also, on the same page in the Atholl account in Complete Peerage, the
statement is made that Margery [sic] Percy and her 1st husband, Henry
Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor, had "an only child, Henry, 7th Lord."
As shown by evidence presented in other messages in this thread, it is
clear now that Margaret (not Margery) Percy and her 1st husband, Henry
Grey, also had one daughter, Elizabeth Grey, wife of Thomas Bodulgate,
In my original post in this thread, I showed that Complete Peerage, 6
(1926): 130 (sub Grey) stated in error that Sir Richard Vere (2nd
husband of Margaret Percy, Lady Grey) was a younger son of John, 12th
Earl of Oxford. Sir Richard Vere was actually Earl John's brother.
Since my original post, I've determined that the same incorrect
information regarding Sir Richard Vere's parentage appears in Complete
Peerage, 1 (1910): 309 (sub Atholl).
Also, on the same page in the Atholl account in Complete Peerage, the
statement is made that Margery [sic] Percy and her 1st husband, Henry
Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Codnor, had "an only child, Henry, 7th Lord."
As shown by evidence presented in other messages in this thread, it is
clear now that Margaret (not Margery) Percy and her 1st husband, Henry
Grey, also had one daughter, Elizabeth Grey, wife of Thomas Bodulgate,
Knt., and John Welles, Esq.
wjhonson
Oct 27, 2013, 3:44:05 PM10/27/13
to
Two pieces of data fit in here as well.
Elizabeth (Percy) Burgh and her sister Margaret (Percy) Grey were by modern reckoning, in 1432 the co-heiresses to the English Barony of Strabolgi
Elizabeth Percy was the eldest of these two co-heiresses per CP Grey calling her sister the youngest, and also Elizabeth was "aged 20: in 1446 per CP Athole
When Henry Lord Grey died in 1444, his son Henry was found to be his heir "aged NINE" ! (emphasis mine)
It should be fairly clear that Margaret Percy could not be this child's mother
However if Margaret Percy had a daughter herself, this daughter, of the half-blood would not stand to inherit as if she were a full sister to Henry
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