Dudley/Ro(o)s consanguinity
Kennwalrus
Okay, here's a serious, on-topic problem that I hope you folks can help me
with. (It's of no great importance, but then, what is?) Caveat: this will
take some telling! If easily bored, move on ...
Humphrey Dudley, esq. (...1448-51...), of Hunmanby, Yorkshire, is given by old
pedigrees (if at all) as son of John Sutton V (1380-1406). Several things lead
me to conclude that this is wrong, and that he was in fact son of John Sutton
VI alias Dudley (1400-1487).
Humphrey is first seen in a marriage dispensation: "1448, Dec. 8.
Dispensation for Humphrey, son of John lord Dudley, and Alianor, daughter of
Sir Robert Roos, knt., to marry. Related in 3rd and 4th degrees. Citing
dispensation of [Pope] Nicholas V. *Dominus perdonavit feoda contemplatione
domini baronis de Dudley*." [Source: "Testamenta Eboracensia," *Surtees
Society*, 45(1865):330.]
Observations: (a) that he's first seen in 1448, on the occasion of his
marriage, already suggests a man born later than 1406. (b) Though in 1448
"lord Dudley" was, and had for decades been, John Sutton VI, Humphrey's called
not "brother," but "son of John lord Dudley." _Prima facie_, he'd seem to have
been son of John Sutton VI, not V. (c) John Sutton VI was a chief henchman of
Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, from c1423; it appears that he named a son, born
in the mid 1420s, after his master, the name Humphrey not having appeared
earlier, AFAIK, among Suttons/Dudleys.
(Query: what does the Latin sentence at the end of the dispensation signify?)
There's nothing, by the way, to indicate that Humphrey wasn't his father's
eldest. The baronial title eventually devolved *via* Sir Edmund Sutton alias
Dudley, son of John Sutton VI alias Dudley, and no Humphrey appears in the
(much-mutilated) will of John Sutton VI alias Dudley, but this is presumably
due simply to Humphrey having dsp, vp; he's not seen after 1451. (A younger
brother, Oliver [...1458/9-1469], in the event dsp surv, but at one point set
up arms differenced with a mullet, indicating that he was, or thought he was
going to be, the 3rd brother, by birth-order, in his generation to found a male
line. [The remaining brother, William Dudley, Bishop of Durham, was a cleric
from the get-go and shouldn't have figured in his brothers' calculation of
armorial differences, in any event.])
FWIW, Humphrey Dudley appears in two other documents: (a) In a Close of 8 Mar
1449, he, with wife Eleanor, is given seisin of her purparty of a third part of
the manor of Hunmanby, Yorkshire, held by Robert Roos, knight, at his death [in
1443], at which point his daughters and next heirs were Margery, wife of John
Wittilbury, esq., of full age, and Eleanor, then "within age." Eleanor "has
now [1449] proved her age." [Query: what age, in this context, would that
be?] (b) In a Fine of 19 Apr 1451, "John Lord de Dudley" is granted, "by
mainprise of Humphrey Dudley of the county of York, esq.," the keeping of all
the lands late of Henry Grey, until the "full age" of the latter's son and
heir, Richard. [Sources: published calendars of Close and Fine Rolls.]
Humphrey Dudley's immediate AT (compiled years ago from secondary sources I can
now [owing to disability] neither list nor check nor supplement; please correct
me if I've slipped a cog):
2. John Sutton VI alias Dudley (1400-87)
3. Elizabeth (Berkeley) Cherleton (<1408-1478)
4. John Sutton V (1380-1406)
5. Constance Blount
6. Sir John Berkeley of Beverstone
7. Elizabeth Betteshorne
8. John Sutton IV
9. Joan [ ] (thought possibly Fitz-Alan/Arundel)
10. Sir Walter Blount
11. Sancha de Ayala (for whom, see recent article by Nat Taylor and Todd
Farmerie in *NEHGR*, 152(1998):36-48)
12. Thomas de Berkeley
13. Katherine de Cliveden
14. John Betteshorne
15. Goda [ ]
16. John Sutton III
17. Katherine de Stafford
18.
19.
20. Sir John Blount
21. Eleanor Beauchamp
22. Diego Gomez de Toledo
23. Ines Alfonso de Ayala
24.-31. [don't think I proceeded this far]
The AT of Eleanor Ro(o)s seemed altogether more problematic, as my sources were
old pedigrees, _sans_ documentation; and there seemed some doubt as to who,
exactly, Sir Robert Ros was.
My problem is this: can anybody flesh out the two ATs in a degree sufficient
to explain the '3rd- and 4th-degree' consanguinities between Humphrey and
Eleanor, and/or to shed light, even in a probabilistic fashion, on the
suggestion that Humphrey's #9, Joan, was a Fitz-Alan/Arundel?
I have *some* (questionable and contradictory) material on Eleanor's ancestry,
available on request. In any event, my computer's just about to cut me short.