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Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
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Brad Verity
May 18, 2012, 4:51:29 PM5/18/12
to
On May 16, 2:15 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 2) Sir Richard Page, who acquired the manor of Beechwood,
> Hertfordshire, during the Tudor dissolution of the religious houses,
> appears to have a connection to the Burgh (or Borough) family who were
> Lords Burgh of Gainsborough. A pedigree of the Burgh family in
> Foster's edition of the visitations of Yorkshire says that Sir Richard
> Page was son of Sir Henry page and his wife Margaret Daniell. Sir
> Henry in turn was son of another Richard whose wife was beatrix,
> sister of Thomas, 1st Lord Burgh. I don't know how reliable this
> visitation pedigree is, but it's worth considering.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, John. I now have the
pedigree in front of me. It would appear to have been taken in 1584.
It's not clear who the informant was, but it may have been William,
4th Lord Burgh, who died in September of that year, and whose eldest
son is described in the pedigree as "Henricus, primogenitus aetatisque
15". The pedigree begins with Elizabeth Stathbogie, wife first of Sir
Thomas Percy, then of Sir John Scrope. The husbands of her two Scrope
daughters are given accurately; the marriages of Elizabeth Bardolf,
the wife of Sir Henry Percy of Atholl, are given correctly (though the
first name of her first husband is given in the pedigree as 'Rogeri
Dom. Scales', when he was actually Robert, Lord Scales (son of
Roger)); the marriages (two each) of Sir Henry Percy of Atholl's two
daughters are given accurately; and the generations down to William
4th Lord Burgh are also given accurately.
The line for Sir Richard Page runs,
1) "Elizabeth, Dna. Lacy, mater Thomae Burgh, militis, 34 Hen. VI. =
Thomas Burgh" and were parents of
2) "Beatrix, primo nupta ...... Strickland, qui obiit sine prole;
renupta Ricardo Page armigero" who were parents of
3) "Henricus Page, miles = Margareta, dau. and heir of ... Danyell"
who were parents of
4) "Ricardus Page, miles = Elizabetha, soror Johannis comitis
Bathonia" who were parents of
5) "Elizabetha, filia et haeres Ricardi Page, militis = Willielmus
Skipwith, miles" who were parents of
6) "Ricardus Skipwith, miles"
Part of generation #2 above is confirmed by the following marriage
pardon:
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarpatentr14offigoog#page/n213/mode/2up
19 Sept. 1462, Westminster. "Pardon to Richard Page and Beatrice late
the wife of Richard Stirkeland, esquire, tenant in chief of Henry VI,
for their trespass in intermarrying without licence."
Beatrice's first husband was Richard Strickland of Haversham,
Buckinghamshire (died 9 March 1458):
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:RSv_thuvWgIJ:www.girders.net/Sto/Strickland,%2520Richard,%2520(d.1458).doc+Richard+Strickland+of+Haversham&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShlF0bcky2Bp8NpFqz9Z4cY2OejSiT11I6LE0dmFinTc4lJ79w725_813EbIkExFm9iXTm0wuI-h-9cx-p1YHt-No7YHrAia55Uffd3zUh0T4zsxx58lh6qGDpQVhoH2T-uD1RH&sig=AHIEtbRhtbLdEOdnqDqJ9CRn9DQpEjjNog
Both of her husbands Richard Strickland & Richard Page have bios in
Wedgwood's HOP which I can't read because the online version thru the
BYU Library is completely blurry.
One chronological red flag is the generation of Sir Henry Page. The
marriage of Beatrice to Richard Page may have taken place a couple
years before they received the pardon in 1462, but even if they
married later in 1458 (Strickland died in March that year), the
earliest their son Sir Henry Page could have been born is 1459.
Elizabeth Bourchier had to have been born by 1479, the year her father
Lord Fitzwarine died. It's always possible Sir Richard Page was a few
years younger than her, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time
between his birth and his grandparents' marriage. Hopefully the bio
of Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP will provide further clues.
Cheers, --------Brad
> 2) Sir Richard Page, who acquired the manor of Beechwood,
> Hertfordshire, during the Tudor dissolution of the religious houses,
> appears to have a connection to the Burgh (or Borough) family who were
> Lords Burgh of Gainsborough. A pedigree of the Burgh family in
> Foster's edition of the visitations of Yorkshire says that Sir Richard
> Page was son of Sir Henry page and his wife Margaret Daniell. Sir
> Henry in turn was son of another Richard whose wife was beatrix,
> sister of Thomas, 1st Lord Burgh. I don't know how reliable this
> visitation pedigree is, but it's worth considering.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, John. I now have the
pedigree in front of me. It would appear to have been taken in 1584.
It's not clear who the informant was, but it may have been William,
4th Lord Burgh, who died in September of that year, and whose eldest
son is described in the pedigree as "Henricus, primogenitus aetatisque
15". The pedigree begins with Elizabeth Stathbogie, wife first of Sir
Thomas Percy, then of Sir John Scrope. The husbands of her two Scrope
daughters are given accurately; the marriages of Elizabeth Bardolf,
the wife of Sir Henry Percy of Atholl, are given correctly (though the
first name of her first husband is given in the pedigree as 'Rogeri
Dom. Scales', when he was actually Robert, Lord Scales (son of
Roger)); the marriages (two each) of Sir Henry Percy of Atholl's two
daughters are given accurately; and the generations down to William
4th Lord Burgh are also given accurately.
The line for Sir Richard Page runs,
1) "Elizabeth, Dna. Lacy, mater Thomae Burgh, militis, 34 Hen. VI. =
Thomas Burgh" and were parents of
2) "Beatrix, primo nupta ...... Strickland, qui obiit sine prole;
renupta Ricardo Page armigero" who were parents of
3) "Henricus Page, miles = Margareta, dau. and heir of ... Danyell"
who were parents of
4) "Ricardus Page, miles = Elizabetha, soror Johannis comitis
Bathonia" who were parents of
5) "Elizabetha, filia et haeres Ricardi Page, militis = Willielmus
Skipwith, miles" who were parents of
6) "Ricardus Skipwith, miles"
Part of generation #2 above is confirmed by the following marriage
pardon:
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarpatentr14offigoog#page/n213/mode/2up
19 Sept. 1462, Westminster. "Pardon to Richard Page and Beatrice late
the wife of Richard Stirkeland, esquire, tenant in chief of Henry VI,
for their trespass in intermarrying without licence."
Beatrice's first husband was Richard Strickland of Haversham,
Buckinghamshire (died 9 March 1458):
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:RSv_thuvWgIJ:www.girders.net/Sto/Strickland,%2520Richard,%2520(d.1458).doc+Richard+Strickland+of+Haversham&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShlF0bcky2Bp8NpFqz9Z4cY2OejSiT11I6LE0dmFinTc4lJ79w725_813EbIkExFm9iXTm0wuI-h-9cx-p1YHt-No7YHrAia55Uffd3zUh0T4zsxx58lh6qGDpQVhoH2T-uD1RH&sig=AHIEtbRhtbLdEOdnqDqJ9CRn9DQpEjjNog
Both of her husbands Richard Strickland & Richard Page have bios in
Wedgwood's HOP which I can't read because the online version thru the
BYU Library is completely blurry.
One chronological red flag is the generation of Sir Henry Page. The
marriage of Beatrice to Richard Page may have taken place a couple
years before they received the pardon in 1462, but even if they
married later in 1458 (Strickland died in March that year), the
earliest their son Sir Henry Page could have been born is 1459.
Elizabeth Bourchier had to have been born by 1479, the year her father
Lord Fitzwarine died. It's always possible Sir Richard Page was a few
years younger than her, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time
between his birth and his grandparents' marriage. Hopefully the bio
of Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP will provide further clues.
Cheers, --------Brad
John
May 18, 2012, 6:17:46 PM5/18/12
to
>
> 19 Sept. 1462, Westminster. "Pardon to Richard Page and Beatrice late
> the wife of Richard Stirkeland, esquire, tenant in chief of Henry VI,
> for their trespass in intermarrying without licence."
>
> Beatrice's first husband was Richard Strickland of Haversham,
> Buckinghamshire (died 9 March 1458):https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:RSv_thuvWgIJ:www.girders.n...
> 19 Sept. 1462, Westminster. "Pardon to Richard Page and Beatrice late
> the wife of Richard Stirkeland, esquire, tenant in chief of Henry VI,
> for their trespass in intermarrying without licence."
>
> Beatrice's first husband was Richard Strickland of Haversham,
>
> Both of her husbands Richard Strickland & Richard Page have bios in
> Wedgwood's HOP which I can't read because the online version thru the
> BYU Library is completely blurry.
>
> One chronological red flag is the generation of Sir Henry Page. The
> marriage of Beatrice to Richard Page may have taken place a couple
> years before they received the pardon in 1462, but even if they
> married later in 1458 (Strickland died in March that year), the
> earliest their son Sir Henry Page could have been born is 1459.
> Elizabeth Bourchier had to have been born by 1479, the year her father
> Lord Fitzwarine died. It's always possible Sir Richard Page was a few
> years younger than her, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time
> between his birth and his grandparents' marriage. Hopefully the bio
> of Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP will provide further clues.
>
> Cheers, --------Brad
Hi, Brad:
> Both of her husbands Richard Strickland & Richard Page have bios in
> Wedgwood's HOP which I can't read because the online version thru the
> BYU Library is completely blurry.
>
> One chronological red flag is the generation of Sir Henry Page. The
> marriage of Beatrice to Richard Page may have taken place a couple
> years before they received the pardon in 1462, but even if they
> married later in 1458 (Strickland died in March that year), the
> earliest their son Sir Henry Page could have been born is 1459.
> Elizabeth Bourchier had to have been born by 1479, the year her father
> Lord Fitzwarine died. It's always possible Sir Richard Page was a few
> years younger than her, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time
> between his birth and his grandparents' marriage. Hopefully the bio
> of Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP will provide further clues.
>
> Cheers, --------Brad
Thanks for pointing out the biographies of Richard Strickland and
Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP. Instead of going through the BYU
library website, you should be able to access a readable (and
downloadable) copy of Wedgwood through the FHL website, at this link:
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=149282
[watch the line wrap]
Richard Strickland is on page 823 and Richard Page is on page 656.
Both bios mention the wife Beatrice but neither gives her a surname or
mentions a connection to Lord Burgh. The summary of Richard Page's
will given in the bio mentions that a son Edmund Page was his
residuary legatee. No other children are mentioned in the bio, but
that of course doesn't mean that there were no other children.
I agree with you that the chronology raises a question as to whether
Sir Richard Page who mar. Elizabeth Bourchier could be the grandson of
this Richard Page. The earliest reference to Sir Richard Page in his
ODNB entry is 1516, when "he was a knight and a gentleman of the
king's privy chamber", and he was a JP by 1522. I don't know if this
gives us any reliable clues as to his age. The weak link in the
pedigree may be either Henry page to his father or Henry to his son.
And also, as mentioned, the link of the elder Richard Page to the
Burgh family is not confirmed by his HOP bio.
Douglas Richardson
May 18, 2012, 8:49:08 PM5/18/12
to
Kingsford's Stonor Letters and Papers 1290-1483, pg. 61 indicates that
Richard Page (died 1493), Receiver of King Edward IV, of Horton, Kent
[husband of Beatrice, widow of Richard Strickland], left a will dated
22 August 1483, proved 20 October 1493, in which he named Beatrice his
late wife, his son, Edmond, and remainder to his grandson, Richard,
son of his son, Henry.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NcLTndriDR4C&pg=PA61
The above source also indicates that Richard Page (died 1493) was
called "brother" by Philip Fitz Lewis in a letter.
The following Chancery suit proves that Richard Page and Beatrice his
wife had a son Henry ["Herry"] Page who in turn was the father of
Richard Page:
Source: Online Catalogue
National Archives, C 1/106/34
Chancery Proceeding
Date: 1486-1493
Richard Page, son of Herry, son of Richard Page and Beatrice, his
wife. v. Edmund Page, executor of the said Richard, the elder.:
Detention of deeds relating to messuages in London, the manors of
Fillesdon and Burton, lands in Shoram, Dertford, Horton, St. Mary
Crey, Eltham, and Motyngham; and messuages and land in Plymouth and
Plympton.: London, Kent, Devon.
The above lawsuit proves three generations. The lawsuit is dated
1486-1493. But if this date range is correct, the proceeding must
date to 1493, the year that the above mentioned will of Richard Page
[Senior] was probated. Young Richard Page, grandson of Richard Page
[Senior] and Beatrice, appears in this abstract to be suing in his own
right, but he was probably still a minor and represented in the
lawsuit by his guardian who is not named. A copy of the actual
proceeding would probably confirm that young Richard Page was a
minor. The earliest Richard Page could have been born was say 1475.
The following lawsuit probably involves the same family, as Beatrice,
wife of Richard Page [Senior] was previously married to Richard
Stickland.
Source: Online Catalogue
National Archives, C 1/224/62
Chancery Proceeding,
Dated 1493-1500
Walter, son of Thomas, son of Walter, son of Thomas, brother of
Walter, father of Richard Strykeland. v. William Atclyff and
Millicent, his wife, and Richard Page.: Detention of deeds relating to
two messuages and cottages adjoining in the parish of St. Botolph
without Aldersgate, a messuage in Tower Street, seven messuages in the
parish of St. Mary at Hill, and messuages in Thames Street.: London.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Richard Page (died 1493), Receiver of King Edward IV, of Horton, Kent
[husband of Beatrice, widow of Richard Strickland], left a will dated
22 August 1483, proved 20 October 1493, in which he named Beatrice his
late wife, his son, Edmond, and remainder to his grandson, Richard,
son of his son, Henry.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NcLTndriDR4C&pg=PA61
The above source also indicates that Richard Page (died 1493) was
called "brother" by Philip Fitz Lewis in a letter.
The following Chancery suit proves that Richard Page and Beatrice his
wife had a son Henry ["Herry"] Page who in turn was the father of
Richard Page:
Source: Online Catalogue
National Archives, C 1/106/34
Chancery Proceeding
Date: 1486-1493
Richard Page, son of Herry, son of Richard Page and Beatrice, his
wife. v. Edmund Page, executor of the said Richard, the elder.:
Detention of deeds relating to messuages in London, the manors of
Fillesdon and Burton, lands in Shoram, Dertford, Horton, St. Mary
Crey, Eltham, and Motyngham; and messuages and land in Plymouth and
Plympton.: London, Kent, Devon.
The above lawsuit proves three generations. The lawsuit is dated
1486-1493. But if this date range is correct, the proceeding must
date to 1493, the year that the above mentioned will of Richard Page
[Senior] was probated. Young Richard Page, grandson of Richard Page
[Senior] and Beatrice, appears in this abstract to be suing in his own
right, but he was probably still a minor and represented in the
lawsuit by his guardian who is not named. A copy of the actual
proceeding would probably confirm that young Richard Page was a
minor. The earliest Richard Page could have been born was say 1475.
The following lawsuit probably involves the same family, as Beatrice,
wife of Richard Page [Senior] was previously married to Richard
Stickland.
Source: Online Catalogue
National Archives, C 1/224/62
Chancery Proceeding,
Dated 1493-1500
Walter, son of Thomas, son of Walter, son of Thomas, brother of
Walter, father of Richard Strykeland. v. William Atclyff and
Millicent, his wife, and Richard Page.: Detention of deeds relating to
two messuages and cottages adjoining in the parish of St. Botolph
without Aldersgate, a messuage in Tower Street, seven messuages in the
parish of St. Mary at Hill, and messuages in Thames Street.: London.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Wjhonson
May 18, 2012, 11:19:40 PM5/18/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
The solution Brad is to disconnect this Elizabeth from her supposed parents.
I mentioned that before.
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
John
May 18, 2012, 11:20:28 PM5/18/12
to
Richard and Beatrice had a son Henry and a grandson Richard. I wonder
if we can also conclude from this that Henry was already dead in 1493
at the time of the suit and perhaps when the elder Richard died.
The chronology still seems to be very tight (to say the least) for the
younger Richard to be grandson of the elder Richard and Beatrice,
given the death date of Beatrice's first husband Richard Strickland.
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 12:16:33 AM5/19/12
to
>
> 19 Sept. 1462, Westminster. "Pardon to Richard Page and Beatrice late
> the wife of Richard Stirkeland, esquire, tenant in chief of Henry VI,
> for their trespass in intermarrying without licence."
>
> Beatrice's first husband was Richard Strickland of Haversham,
> Buckinghamshire (died 9 March 1458):https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:RSv_thuvWgIJ:www.girders.n...
> 19 Sept. 1462, Westminster. "Pardon to Richard Page and Beatrice late
> the wife of Richard Stirkeland, esquire, tenant in chief of Henry VI,
> for their trespass in intermarrying without licence."
>
> Beatrice's first husband was Richard Strickland of Haversham,
>
> Both of her husbands Richard Strickland & Richard Page have bios in
> Wedgwood's HOP which I can't read because the online version thru the
> BYU Library is completely blurry.
>
> One chronological red flag is the generation of Sir Henry Page. The
> marriage of Beatrice to Richard Page may have taken place a couple
> years before they received the pardon in 1462, but even if they
> married later in 1458 (Strickland died in March that year), the
> earliest their son Sir Henry Page could have been born is 1459.
> Elizabeth Bourchier had to have been born by 1479, the year her father
> Lord Fitzwarine died. It's always possible Sir Richard Page was a few
> years younger than her, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time
> between his birth and his grandparents' marriage. Hopefully the bio
> of Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP will provide further clues.
>
> Cheers, --------Brad
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com
> Both of her husbands Richard Strickland & Richard Page have bios in
> Wedgwood's HOP which I can't read because the online version thru the
> BYU Library is completely blurry.
>
> One chronological red flag is the generation of Sir Henry Page. The
> marriage of Beatrice to Richard Page may have taken place a couple
> years before they received the pardon in 1462, but even if they
> married later in 1458 (Strickland died in March that year), the
> earliest their son Sir Henry Page could have been born is 1459.
> Elizabeth Bourchier had to have been born by 1479, the year her father
> Lord Fitzwarine died. It's always possible Sir Richard Page was a few
> years younger than her, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time
> between his birth and his grandparents' marriage. Hopefully the bio
> of Richard Page in Wedgwood's HOP will provide further clues.
>
> Cheers, --------Brad
>
> -------------------------------
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Aside from the pedigree in the Yorkshire visitations that indicates a
> the message
connection of Sir Richard Page to the Burgh family, we don't yet have
good evidence that the Sir Richard Page who married Elizabeth
Bourchier is the same Richard who is son of Henry and grandson of
another Richard in the visitation pedigree (and in the legal matters
which DR has cited). So it's premature to say that the problem can be
resolved by introducing a second Elizabeth Bourchier - especially
because we have reasonable evidence that one Elizabeth Bourchier
(sister of the Earl of Bath) did marry both Sir Edward Stanhope and
Sir Richard Page.
Douglas Richardson
May 19, 2012, 12:36:17 AM5/19/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
There is helpful biographical information on Sir Richard Page (died
1549) and his wife, Elizabeth Bourchier, published in Nichols,
Literary Remains of King Edward the Sixth 1 (1857): xxx-xxxi.
This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7TUJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR30
Sir Richard Page's wife Elizabeth is there identified as the "dowager
lady Stanhope, the mother of the countess of Hertford."
There is helpful biographical information on Sir Richard Page (died
1549) and his wife, Elizabeth Bourchier, published in Nichols,
Literary Remains of King Edward the Sixth 1 (1857): xxx-xxxi.
This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7TUJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR30
Sir Richard Page's wife Elizabeth is there identified as the "dowager
lady Stanhope, the mother of the countess of Hertford."
Brad Verity
May 19, 2012, 1:59:24 AM5/19/12
to
Douglas,
Thank you for sharing all the information that you've found - it's a
huge help.
Higginbotham wrote a post about him on her blog just a few days ago:
http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/the-fortunate-sir-richard-page/
In it, she mentions that Sir Richard had a sister Margaret whose
married name was Smart, cousins named John Carleton and Anthony
Sondes, and referred to Anne, wife of William Fitzwilliam as his
niece. I couldn't help with the first two, but I was able to explain
the last one. Sir Richard was the uncle by marriage to Anne Sapcote
(c.1508-1576), the wife of William Fitzwilliam. Anne’s father Sir
Richard Sapcote of Elton Hall (1483-1543) was the younger half-brother
of Elizabeth Bourchier, Sir Richard’s wife.
Now we can add that Philip FitzLewis was called "brother" by Richard's
grandfather.
> The following Chancery suit proves that Richard Page and Beatrice his
> wife had a son Henry ["Herry"] Page who in turn was the father of
> Richard Page:
Thanks again for locating both of these lawsuits Douglas. It's great
to have the confirmation of Henry Page. This shows that the 1584
Visitation pedigree was accurate in every generation, and so I'm very
confident that the descent for Sir Richard is as the pedigree states.
I haven't had time to comb all the Calendar Rolls but I did manage to
locate this entry in CPR 1476-1485, pp. 228-229:
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarpatentr12offigoog#page/n234/mode/2up
14 Nov. 1480, Westminster. "Pardon to William Coke of Tamerton
Folyet, co. Devon, 'yeoman,' of his outlawry in the said county for
not appearing with Richard Martyn of Tamerton Folyet, 'yoman,' before
the justices of the Bench to satisfy the king of their ransom for a
trespass committed against William Hastynges, knight, Thomas Burgh,
knight, Ralph Hastynges, knight, and Richard Page at Horsham in the
parish of Tamerton Folyet; these having appeared in court on 13
November by John Elys, their attorney, and acknowledged themselves
satisfied of 23l. 6s. 8d. and the said William having appeared in
person and made fine and afterwards surrendered to the Flete prison,
as Thomas Bryan, knight, chief justice of the Bench, has certified."
So there is confirmation that Sir Thomas Burgh and Richard Page were
parties together in a legal proceeding in 1480, and that, combined
with the overall accuracy of the 1584 Visitation pedigree, makes me
confident that Richard Page's wife Beatrice was indeed Sir Thomas
Burgh's sister.
On May 18, 8:19 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> The solution Brad is to disconnect this Elizabeth from her supposed parents.
> I mentioned that before.
Well, we now know that Sir Richard Page referred to Anne Sapcote
Fitzwilliam as his "niece" (see Susan Higginbotham's blogpost, linked
to above) - a relationship only explained by his wife Elizabeth having
been the daughter of Lord Fitzwarine and Elizabeth Dinham (who m.
2ndly, Sir John Sapcote). Plus the otherwise accurate in almost every
detail Burgh pedigree from the 1584 Viisitation pedigree specifically
describes Elizabeth, the wife of Sir Richard Page, as sister to John,
Earl of Bath. And the Stanhope pedigree from the Visitation of
Nottinghamshire also states she was a daughter of Fulk, Lord
Fitzwarine. Three separate pieces of evidence confirming her
identity.
Granted the chronology is tight, but it does fit. Elizabeth Page, the
only child of Sir Richard Page & Elizabeth Bourchier was born in 1516
(I believe we know her birthdate from the IPM of Elizabeth Bourchier
in 1557). Elizabeth Bourchier could have been born anytime up until
1479, so a 1516 birth does work. It's also noteworthy that Elizabeth
and Sir Richard Page only had one child in more than thirty years of
marriage, further corroboration that she was no young ingenue when she
married Page, but instead close to the end of her childbearing years.
Sir Richard's father Henry was born at some point after 1458, which
does work for him to have fathered a son who in turn was a father in
1516. Everything points to Sir Richard having been younger than
Elizabeth Bourchier, but it was not unusual for a well-off widow to
take a younger husband, and the age difference need not have been more
than five years, and possibly less.
The remaining piece of Sir Richard Page's ancestry to fill in is to
further identify his mother Margaret Daniell. I'm off to Seattle for
the Canada long weekend (with a list of Google Books sources to
download while I'm in U.S. cyberspace), so I'm going to bow out on her
until I'm back early next week. Thanks to everyone for their help
with this topic!
Cheers, ---------Brad
Thank you for sharing all the information that you've found - it's a
huge help.
> The above source also indicates that Richard Page (died 1493) was
> called "brother" by Philip Fitz Lewis in a letter.
Sir Richard Page must be 'in the air'. Author & historian Susan
> called "brother" by Philip Fitz Lewis in a letter.
Higginbotham wrote a post about him on her blog just a few days ago:
http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/the-fortunate-sir-richard-page/
In it, she mentions that Sir Richard had a sister Margaret whose
married name was Smart, cousins named John Carleton and Anthony
Sondes, and referred to Anne, wife of William Fitzwilliam as his
niece. I couldn't help with the first two, but I was able to explain
the last one. Sir Richard was the uncle by marriage to Anne Sapcote
(c.1508-1576), the wife of William Fitzwilliam. Anne’s father Sir
Richard Sapcote of Elton Hall (1483-1543) was the younger half-brother
of Elizabeth Bourchier, Sir Richard’s wife.
Now we can add that Philip FitzLewis was called "brother" by Richard's
grandfather.
> The following Chancery suit proves that Richard Page and Beatrice his
> wife had a son Henry ["Herry"] Page who in turn was the father of
> Richard Page:
to have the confirmation of Henry Page. This shows that the 1584
Visitation pedigree was accurate in every generation, and so I'm very
confident that the descent for Sir Richard is as the pedigree states.
I haven't had time to comb all the Calendar Rolls but I did manage to
locate this entry in CPR 1476-1485, pp. 228-229:
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarpatentr12offigoog#page/n234/mode/2up
14 Nov. 1480, Westminster. "Pardon to William Coke of Tamerton
Folyet, co. Devon, 'yeoman,' of his outlawry in the said county for
not appearing with Richard Martyn of Tamerton Folyet, 'yoman,' before
the justices of the Bench to satisfy the king of their ransom for a
trespass committed against William Hastynges, knight, Thomas Burgh,
knight, Ralph Hastynges, knight, and Richard Page at Horsham in the
parish of Tamerton Folyet; these having appeared in court on 13
November by John Elys, their attorney, and acknowledged themselves
satisfied of 23l. 6s. 8d. and the said William having appeared in
person and made fine and afterwards surrendered to the Flete prison,
as Thomas Bryan, knight, chief justice of the Bench, has certified."
So there is confirmation that Sir Thomas Burgh and Richard Page were
parties together in a legal proceeding in 1480, and that, combined
with the overall accuracy of the 1584 Visitation pedigree, makes me
confident that Richard Page's wife Beatrice was indeed Sir Thomas
Burgh's sister.
On May 18, 8:19 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> The solution Brad is to disconnect this Elizabeth from her supposed parents.
> I mentioned that before.
Fitzwilliam as his "niece" (see Susan Higginbotham's blogpost, linked
to above) - a relationship only explained by his wife Elizabeth having
been the daughter of Lord Fitzwarine and Elizabeth Dinham (who m.
2ndly, Sir John Sapcote). Plus the otherwise accurate in almost every
detail Burgh pedigree from the 1584 Viisitation pedigree specifically
describes Elizabeth, the wife of Sir Richard Page, as sister to John,
Earl of Bath. And the Stanhope pedigree from the Visitation of
Nottinghamshire also states she was a daughter of Fulk, Lord
Fitzwarine. Three separate pieces of evidence confirming her
identity.
Granted the chronology is tight, but it does fit. Elizabeth Page, the
only child of Sir Richard Page & Elizabeth Bourchier was born in 1516
(I believe we know her birthdate from the IPM of Elizabeth Bourchier
in 1557). Elizabeth Bourchier could have been born anytime up until
1479, so a 1516 birth does work. It's also noteworthy that Elizabeth
and Sir Richard Page only had one child in more than thirty years of
marriage, further corroboration that she was no young ingenue when she
married Page, but instead close to the end of her childbearing years.
Sir Richard's father Henry was born at some point after 1458, which
does work for him to have fathered a son who in turn was a father in
1516. Everything points to Sir Richard having been younger than
Elizabeth Bourchier, but it was not unusual for a well-off widow to
take a younger husband, and the age difference need not have been more
than five years, and possibly less.
The remaining piece of Sir Richard Page's ancestry to fill in is to
further identify his mother Margaret Daniell. I'm off to Seattle for
the Canada long weekend (with a list of Google Books sources to
download while I'm in U.S. cyberspace), so I'm going to bow out on her
until I'm back early next week. Thanks to everyone for their help
with this topic!
Cheers, ---------Brad
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 11:58:33 AM5/19/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I've seen no reasonable evidence of that to date.
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 12:14:25 PM5/19/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thank you Douglas this source is very useful for a few things however it introduces more questions than it solves.
It states that *when* Elizabeth Lady Page died in 1557 "her heir" was found to be her daughter Elizabeth than married to William Skipwith of Ormsby and "aged 30 and more"
That helps me shave another 6 years off the birthranges of Elizabeth (Page) Skipwith's children, *however* it asks us to believe that Anne (Stanhope) Seymour's many children were cut off from the inheritence as at least *an* elder, if not *the* elder daughter.
This doesn't speak to Anne being in this line, but rather against it. Let alone that Catherine Verney must have died as well.
This source claims that when Anne the Duchess of Somerset was in the Tower that Lady Page had permission to visit her, and cites
http://books.google.com/books?id=7TUJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR31
See Privy Council Book, MS Addit. 14,026 f139b
It makes me wonder if that source actually states "Lady PAGE the MOTHER of Anne" or simply "Lady Page"
Elizabeth *could* have been Anne's aunt for all that may tell us.
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 12:25:11 PM5/19/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
we don't know the year Anne was born even within ten
we don't know the year Richard was born even within ten
<<Sir Richard was the uncle by marriage to Anne Sapcote
(c.1508-1576), the wife of William Fitzwilliam. Anne’s father Sir
Richard Sapcote of Elton Hall (1483-1543) was the younger half-brother
of Elizabeth Bourchier, Sir Richard’s wife.>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 12:31:06 PM5/19/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
There are also chronologic problems with making Sir Richard the "younger" half-brother of Elizabeth Bourchier. Perhaps someone could locate the IPM for John Lord Dinham who d.s.p. when his four sisters were found to be his co-heiresses in 1509. It may give us their ages
I have moved Sir John Sapcote of Elton, co Hunt to the first husband position for Elizabeth Dinham now, as I have not only that Sir Richard was born by 1467 but his elder brother Sir William Sapcote by 1462 !
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 12:35:22 PM5/19/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
No she was "aged 30 and more" not 40 and more. AND she was her mother's heiress at that time (1557) which throws the whole reconstruction into the air.
I suggest that we have TWO sisters here, Elizabeth Bourchier marries Edward Stanhope and another woman possibly named Elizabeth I suppose as well her sister and the wife of Page. That could neatly explain later confusion on them by the way.
<<Granted the chronology is tight, but it does fit. Elizabeth Page, the
only child of Sir Richard Page & Elizabeth Bourchier was born in 1516
(I believe we know her birthdate from the IPM of Elizabeth Bourchier
in 1557). Elizabeth Bourchier could have been born anytime up until
1479, so a 1516 birth does work.>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 1:13:24 PM5/19/12
to
On May 19, 9:31 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> There are also chronologic problems with making Sir Richard the "younger" half-brother of Elizabeth Bourchier. Perhaps someone could locate the IPM for John Lord Dinham who d.s.p. when his four sisters were found to be his co-heiresses in 1509. It may give us their ages
>
> I have moved Sir John Sapcote of Elton, co Hunt to the first husband position for Elizabeth Dinham now, as I have not only that Sir Richard was born by 1467 but his elder brother Sir William Sapcote by 1462 !
>
>
Ummm... How can Sir John Sapcote be the first husband of Elizabeth
> There are also chronologic problems with making Sir Richard the "younger" half-brother of Elizabeth Bourchier. Perhaps someone could locate the IPM for John Lord Dinham who d.s.p. when his four sisters were found to be his co-heiresses in 1509. It may give us their ages
>
> I have moved Sir John Sapcote of Elton, co Hunt to the first husband position for Elizabeth Dinham now, as I have not only that Sir Richard was born by 1467 but his elder brother Sir William Sapcote by 1462 !
>
>
Dinham, when he died 5 Jan 1500/1 while her first husband, Fulk
Bourchier, Lord Fitzwarin d. 18 Sept 1479? (Dates are from CP
5509-10, which identifies its sources)
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 1:16:11 PM5/19/12
to
one Elizabeth Bourchier (sister of the Earl of Bath) did marry both
Sir Edward Stanhope and Sir Richard Page. You just chosen to
disregard them because they agree with your theory about two Elizabeth
Bourchiers.
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 1:18:00 PM5/19/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
As to Sir Richard Page having a sister Margaret Smart, our intrepid authoress didn't have to search far, since Richard's will was transcribed to the internets twelve years ago.
In this 1547 Will he names his "sister Margaret Page otherwise called by her husband Margaret Smart"
AND he names her son "Jarrad" dwelling at Thurleigh
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 1:23:19 PM5/19/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
"Jarred his illegitimate son by margaret Smart"
http://books.google.com/books?id=4c8_AAAAcAAJ&dq=smart%20of%20thurleigh&pg=PA522#v=onepage&q=smart%20of%20thurleigh&f=true
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 10:18 am
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 1:36:44 PM5/19/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Margaret wife of William Smart, Gerard her son....
http://books.google.com/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&dq=smart%20of%20thurleigh&pg=PA170#v=onepage&q&f=true
http://books.google.com/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&dq=smart%20of%20thurleigh&pg=PA170#v=onepage&q&f=true
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 1:48:00 PM5/19/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sorry John for you some modern author *stating* it is the same thing as "evidence"
That's not evidence for me in the face of conflicting primary evidence
Only when there is no conflicting primary evidence
I've already presented evidence that there is something wrong here
You just choose to ignore it because it doesn't match your *faith*
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
That's not evidence for me in the face of conflicting primary evidence
Only when there is no conflicting primary evidence
I've already presented evidence that there is something wrong here
You just choose to ignore it because it doesn't match your *faith*
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 1:53:50 PM5/19/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Because it's wrong?
Misguided? Incomplete?
Is this your first day on this list?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 10:21 am
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Douglas Richardson
May 19, 2012, 4:18:37 PM5/19/12
to
On May 19, 10:14 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
< Thank you Douglas this source is very useful for a few things
however it introduces more questions than it solves.
<
< It states that *when* Elizabeth Lady Page died in 1557 "her heir"
was found to be her daughter Elizabeth than married to William
Skipwith of Ormsby and <"aged 30 and more"
The IPM probably states that Elizabeth Skipwith was Lady Page's "heir"
< Thank you Douglas this source is very useful for a few things
however it introduces more questions than it solves.
<
< It states that *when* Elizabeth Lady Page died in 1557 "her heir"
was found to be her daughter Elizabeth than married to William
Skipwith of Ormsby and <"aged 30 and more"
to a specific property, presumably a Page family property. This
should not be construed to mean that Lady Page had no other heirs,
especially if they were born to another marriage.
DR
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 5:12:34 PM5/19/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Yes I thought about that. Also it could be that Lady Page held something for her life, so Elizabeth got it, but not really *from* her mother, but merely because she was the next in the line of holders, and really it was because it was from her father.
It's possible as you say, it's just not what *this* source states. So I suppose we need to see the actual IPM now.
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 1:20 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 6:27:30 PM5/19/12
to
On May 19, 10:53 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Because it's wrong?
> Misguided? Incomplete?
> Is this your first day on this list?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 10:21 am
> Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
>
> On May 19, 9:31 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > There are also chronologic problems with making Sir Richard the "younger"
> half-brother of Elizabeth Bourchier. Perhaps someone could locate the IPM for
> John Lord Dinham who d.s.p. when his four sisters were found to be his
> co-heiresses in 1509. It may give us their ages
>
> > I have moved Sir John Sapcote of Elton, co Hunt to the first husband position
> for Elizabeth Dinham now, as I have not only that Sir Richard was born by 1467
> but his elder brother Sir William Sapcote by 1462 !
>
> Ummm... How can Sir John Sapcote be the first husband of Elizabeth
> Dinham, when he died 5 Jan 1500/1 while her first husband, Fulk
> Bourchier, Lord Fitzwarin d. 18 Sept 1479? (Dates are from CP
> 5509-10, which identifies its sources)
>
So which specific fact or facts in the CP account are wrong, and
> Because it's wrong?
> Misguided? Incomplete?
> Is this your first day on this list?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 10:21 am
> Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
>
> On May 19, 9:31 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > There are also chronologic problems with making Sir Richard the "younger"
> half-brother of Elizabeth Bourchier. Perhaps someone could locate the IPM for
> John Lord Dinham who d.s.p. when his four sisters were found to be his
> co-heiresses in 1509. It may give us their ages
>
> > I have moved Sir John Sapcote of Elton, co Hunt to the first husband position
> for Elizabeth Dinham now, as I have not only that Sir Richard was born by 1467
> but his elder brother Sir William Sapcote by 1462 !
>
> Ummm... How can Sir John Sapcote be the first husband of Elizabeth
> Dinham, when he died 5 Jan 1500/1 while her first husband, Fulk
> Bourchier, Lord Fitzwarin d. 18 Sept 1479? (Dates are from CP
> 5509-10, which identifies its sources)
>
what's your specific evidence for this conclusion? And cite your
sources, please. To refresh your memory, check CP 5:509-10 for what
it says.
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 6:47:30 PM5/19/12
to
On May 19, 10:53 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you're proposing here. If Sir
> the message
John Sapcote was the first husband of Elizabeth Dinham, was Fulk
Bourchier, Lord Fitwarin her 2nd husband? if so, was the 1st marriage
ended by a divorce? Or are you proposing that there were two
Elizabeth Dinhams - just as you would have us believe that there were
two Elizabeth Bourchiers? And how does Elizabeth Dinham's 3rd husband
fit into the picture?
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 7:30:49 PM5/19/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I retract the claim that William Sapcote, husband of Anne Semark [sic] was at this point in this family.
I've now found evidence that this William was more likely of the same age as his supposed mother Elizabeth (Dynham) Sapcote
So at least one published source has to be discredited, since as everyone knows my claims come from published sources.
That doesn't tell us where he *does* fit, and only eases the chronologic problem slightly as
Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton (d 1543) still himself has to be an adult already by the supposed time of his mother's marriage in order for his daugher Elizabeth to marry William Alington of Horseheath
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 8:36:22 PM5/19/12
to
Alington (d. at Bosworth 1485) was not the daughter of the Sir Richard
who was son of Sir John Sapcote who married Elizabeth Dinham. And
William Sapcote was almost certainly a brother, not son, of this Sir
John Sapcote 9who was the son of another Sir Richard, for whom Sir
John's son Sir Richard was presumably named). I believe the evidence
for this can be found in Plantagenet Harrison's History of Yorkshire.
The visitation pedigrees for the Sapcotes, as well as those in
Maddison's Lincolnshire, are not to be trusted.
The problems in this family have been discussed several times before
in this group. In fact, back in Dec 2005 you proposed that William
Sapcote was a son of Sir John Sapcote by a marriage prior to the one
with Elizabeth Dinham. I guess this is the claim that you're now
retracting.
So....are you still asserting that Sir John Sapcote was the 1st (and
not the 2nd) husband of Elizabeth Dinham?
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 9:17:11 PM5/19/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
You assert something without citation John.
I can't use that for anything.
Meanwhile I'm working on the Hervey family all day today, so this has to wait now.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
Brad Verity
May 19, 2012, 9:09:51 PM5/19/12
to
> On May 19, 4:30 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > That doesn't tell us where he *does* fit, and only eases the chronologic problem slightly as
> > Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton (d 1543) still himself has to be an adult already by the supposed time of his mother's marriage in order for his daugher Elizabeth to marry William Alington of Horseheath
> > That doesn't tell us where he *does* fit, and only eases the chronologic problem slightly as
> > Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton (d 1543) still himself has to be an adult already by the supposed time of his mother's marriage in order for his daugher Elizabeth to marry William Alington of Horseheath
On May 19, 5:36 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Elizabeth Sapcotts (or Sapcote) who married (as his 2nd wife) William
> Alington (d. at Bosworth 1485) was not the daughter of the Sir Richard
> who was son of Sir John Sapcote who married Elizabeth Dinham. And
> William Sapcote was almost certainly a brother, not son, of this Sir
> John Sapcote 9who was the son of another Sir Richard, for whom Sir
> John's son Sir Richard was presumably named). I believe the evidence
> for this can be found in Plantagenet Harrison's History of Yorkshire.
> The visitation pedigrees for the Sapcotes, as well as those in
> Maddison's Lincolnshire, are not to be trusted.
Back in 2002, Chris Phillips posted on the newsgroup: "William
> Elizabeth Sapcotts (or Sapcote) who married (as his 2nd wife) William
> Alington (d. at Bosworth 1485) was not the daughter of the Sir Richard
> who was son of Sir John Sapcote who married Elizabeth Dinham. And
> William Sapcote was almost certainly a brother, not son, of this Sir
> John Sapcote 9who was the son of another Sir Richard, for whom Sir
> John's son Sir Richard was presumably named). I believe the evidence
> for this can be found in Plantagenet Harrison's History of Yorkshire.
> The visitation pedigrees for the Sapcotes, as well as those in
> Maddison's Lincolnshire, are not to be trusted.
[Alington] married firstly Elizabeth, the daughter of Richard Sapcote,
knight - the marriage settlement, naming her father, was dated 14
November 1468 [British Library, Additional MS 5823, fo 222]."
Crisp, in his pedigree of Alington in the Visitation of England &
Wales Notes Volume 7:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofengl28howa#page/14/mode/2up
says she was "dau. of Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton, co. Huntingdon,
knight, by Anne his wife, dau. of Nicholas, 1st Lord Vaux of
Harrowden".
As John pointed out above, this is incorrect and chronologically
impossible, as the 1st Lord Vaux was born about 1460 (per his bio in
HOP). Presumably Crisp did not have the marriage settlement when he
drew up the pedigree. I would imagine Elizabeth Sapcote Alington
belongs two generations back as the daughter of Richard Sapcote (since
that was her father's name in the marriage settlement), who was the
father of Sir John Sapcote of Elton (c.1448-1501). As these Sapcotes
aren't descended from Edward I, I don't have any info on this earlier
Richard Sapcote and don't know who his wife was.
I took the birthdate of 1483 for Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton (d.
1543) from Kathy Lynn Emerson's website 'A Who's Who of Tudor Women':
http://www.kateemersonhistoricals.com/TudorWomenU-V.htm
Ms. Emerson is a conscientious researcher, and I use the dates she
assigns until I have a chance to look at original documentation, which
I've not yet done for Sir Richard Sapcote.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, -------Brad
Wjhonson
May 19, 2012, 11:00:36 PM5/19/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
From where did you get this "c 1448" for John Sapcote's birth?
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, May 19, 2012 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
John Higgins
May 19, 2012, 11:35:13 PM5/19/12
to
receiving a source citation for information, since throughout this
thread and the related one on Elizabeth Bourchier you've repeatedly
declined to provide sources, despite multiple requests to do so.
And I DID provide you with a source: Plantagenet Harrison's History of
Yorkshire. And here's another one, gratis: check the appropriate
section of VCH (I'm sure you can figure out WHICH section) for
information on the father of Sir John Sapcote (who married Elizabeth
Dinham). It will confirm at least part of the information that has
now been kindly provided by Brad - and give you a better foundation
for your next round of "educated" guesses. And perhaps then you'll be
able to tell us if you still assert that Sir John Sapcote was the 1st
(and not the 2nd) husband of Elizabeth Dinham.
John Higgins
May 20, 2012, 12:11:17 AM5/20/12
to
On May 18, 10:59 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sir Richard Page must be 'in the air'. Author & historian Susan
> Higginbotham wrote a post about him on her blog just a few days ago:http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/the-fortunate-sir-richard...
> Sir Richard Page must be 'in the air'. Author & historian Susan
>
> Cheers, ---------Brad
Brad:
As you say above, Sir Richard Page must be "in the air". I happened
today to come across some references to a 'Richard Page" in
approximately the right time period who is likely our man - albeit
with some rather unsavory connections and reputation.
A new biography of King Henry VII was published last year, by Thomas
Penn titles "Winter King: Henry VII and the Dawn of Tudor england".
There are a few brief mentions of a Richard Page as an associate (Penn
calls him his "sidekick and enforcer") of Edmund Dudley, the notorious
minister of Henry VII who managed a widespread program of extortion
from the king's subjects. The ODNB bio of Edmund Dudley has this to
say about him:
"[H]is role was to manage the king's use of a miscellaneous range of
opportunities for financial exploitation of his greater subjects. He
sold offices, wardships, and licences to marry the widows of tenants-
in-chief; pardons for treason, sedition, murder, riot, retaining, and
other offences. In less than four years he collected some £219,316 6s.
11d. in cash and bonds for future payment."
Edmund Dudley fell from power and was executed, along with Sir Richard
Empson, shortly after the death of his patron Henry VII. The book
doesn't mention the fate of Richard Page, but if he was our Richard
Page he apparently escaped punishment (perhaps because he was in the
service of Cardinal Wolsey) and within a few years became a knight and
a gentleman of the king's privy chamber. Of course, he later had
another brush with death when he was briefly imprisoned at the time
of the fall of Anne Boleyn.
I can't yet say definitely that the Richard Page who was the "sidekick
and enforcer" of Edmund Dudley, but it seems highly likely. And if so
his relationship with Edmund Dudley is an extension of the
biographical data on him in ODNB.
Wjhonson
May 20, 2012, 1:48:41 AM5/20/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I'm not going to search entire works for one phrase John
So your "free" extra help isn't help at all.
Brad Verity
May 20, 2012, 11:55:44 AM5/20/12
to
On May 19, 8:00 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> From where did you get this "c 1448" for John Sapcote's birth?
From his bio in Wedgwood's HOP (pp. 740-741). The bio says Sir John
> From where did you get this "c 1448" for John Sapcote's birth?
was returned as age 50 in the 1498 IPM of his cousin Richard Sapcote
of Gunthorpe. Sir John's own IPM was taken in 1501 (and published in
CIPM Hen. VII vol. 2, pp. 406, 442, which I believe is available
online), and his son and heir Richard was returned as age 18. Sir
John left a will dated 6 Jan. 1501, proved 28 May 1501, where he names
his wife Lady Fitzwarin (whom he makes his executrix), his son
Richard, his daughter Jane, and his daughter-in-law (i.e.,
stepdaughter) Elizabeth Beaumont (the Elizabeth Bourchier who went on
to marry Sir Edward Stanhope & Sir Richard Page).
Cheers, ----------Brad
Brad Verity
May 20, 2012, 11:59:30 AM5/20/12
to
On May 19, 9:11 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I can't yet say definitely that the Richard Page who was the "sidekick
> and enforcer" of Edmund Dudley, but it seems highly likely. And if so
> his relationship with Edmund Dudley is an extension of the
> biographical data on him in ODNB.
Very interesting, John. I was thinking we should contact ODNB &
> I can't yet say definitely that the Richard Page who was the "sidekick
> and enforcer" of Edmund Dudley, but it seems highly likely. And if so
> his relationship with Edmund Dudley is an extension of the
> biographical data on him in ODNB.
Catharine Davies to let them know of the parentage of Sir Richard Page
so that they may revise his bio. We can include this reference that
you've found as well.
Thanks & Cheers, --------Brad
John Higgins
May 20, 2012, 12:49:26 PM5/20/12
to
Sapcote of Elton, Hunts, but does not give a source for this. I
wonder if Wedgwood was depending on the 1613 Hunts visitation, which
is pretty unreliable with respect to the Sapcotes. I mention this
because the account of Elton in VCH Hunts says that Sir John (d. 1501)
was son of Sir Richard (d. 1477). This Sir Richard is clearly
distinct from the Sir Richard (d. ca. 1498) of Gunthorpe, Rutland,
whose IPM mentions Sir John, but the first Sir Richard also seems to
be associated with Burley in Rutlandshire. The identification of the
various Sir Richard Sapcotes, as well as their marriages into the
Fraunceys and Plessington families, is quite confusing.
Wedgwood's account is yet another source which identifies Sir John
Sapcote as the 2md, not 1st, husband of Elizabeth Dinham. This will
of course immediately discredit the account in Will's judgment, since
it disagrees with his predetermined conclusion in this matter. :-)
Wjhonson
May 20, 2012, 4:26:21 PM5/20/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Wedgwood's *account* is not a primary source is it?
However John to satisfy your refusal to comprehend the distinction, I've now located two additional primary sources which highlight John Sapcote's contemporary involvement in the affairs of FitzWarin.
You're probably much too busy to be able to find them I'm sure and will instead rely on regurgitated sources from encyclopedias who quite often screw up what they are reading, since you don't seem to be able to do primary research yourself.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
However John to satisfy your refusal to comprehend the distinction, I've now located two additional primary sources which highlight John Sapcote's contemporary involvement in the affairs of FitzWarin.
You're probably much too busy to be able to find them I'm sure and will instead rely on regurgitated sources from encyclopedias who quite often screw up what they are reading, since you don't seem to be able to do primary research yourself.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 10:17 am
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Richard Page (d. 1549)
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