King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of Rothesay
Douglas Richardson
I've located references to kinship between the Plantagenet kings and
the Scottish royal family which I'm unable to explain.
I find that Robert II, King of Scotland, was called "Illustris
Principis, Roberti Consanguinei nostri de Scotia" [illustrious prince,
Robert our kinsman of Scotland] in 1373 by King Edward III of England
[Reference: Thomas Rymer, Foedera 7 (1728): 2–3, 9–10].
Likewise, I find that King Robert II's grandson, David, Duke of
Rothesay, was similarly styled "kinsman" by King Richard II of England
[Reference: Thomas Rymer, Foedera 8 (1727): 82].
Does anyone have any idea what the kinship might be involved here?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Phil Moody
Margaret, the kings of England have been related to the Kings of Scotland on
the distaff side. Even King Stephen had a relationship to the Scottish throne
via another line.
Robert the Bruce was descended from David (I) through the distaff side as
well; so they were all descendants of Malcolm (III) and St. Margaret.
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:15 PM
Subject: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I've located references to kinship between the Plantagenet kings and
> the Scottish royal family which I'm unable to explain.
>
> I find that Robert II, King of Scotland, was called "Illustris
> Principis, Roberti Consanguinei nostri de Scotia" [illustrious prince,
> Robert our kinsman of Scotland] in 1373 by King Edward III of England
> [Reference: Thomas Rymer, Foedera 7 (1728): 2-3, 9-10].
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, Phil, et al.,
This acknowledgment by Edward III of a kinship with Robert II of Scots is
interesting indeed. Assuming that a relationship of 4th cousin (5th degree)
is alluded to, there is some error (or a very interesting unidentified
ancestor) in the accepted ancestry of Robert II. Otherwise, the definition of who
would be recognized as 'consanguineus' by Edward III requires reexamination.
As to the 'accepted ancestry of Robert II', I have provided an AT of same
below, reflecting the known ancestors to his great-great grandparents. There
are obvious lacunae, incl. the unknown spouse of Neil, Earl of Carrick
(himself an acknowledged 'consanguineus' of King John as I recall). I am left with
the knowledge that an absolute answer is not at hand, but I can suggest a
previously dismissed solution: that the wife of Donald, Earl of Mar (Elen, #15
below) was in fact a daughter of Llywelyn, prince of Aberffraw (aka North Wales)
by his Joan, illegitimate daughter (later legitimated) of King John of
England.
If this was in fact the case, the relationship would show as follows:
Isabella of = John of England ~ ________
___________________I I _ _ _ _
I I
Henry III of England Llywelyn Fawr = Joan of
I P of Wales I England
I I
Edward I Donald of Mar = Elen
I I
I I
Edward II Robert _the_ = Isabel
I Bruce I of Mar
I I
EDWARD III Marjory = Walter the
KING OF ENGLAND Bruce I Stewart
I
ROBERT II
KING OF SCOTS
This relationship would be that of 3rd cousin 1x removed - near the 'far
edge' (say 4th cousin X times removed) of recognized kinship of the time, as
is now understood.
I will look later, but if someone of the list wishes meanwhile to
'dredge up' prior discussions of the identification of Donald of Mar's wife, this
issue can be reexamined in light of Douglas' Foederal find.
Good luck, and good hunting (to us all).
John *
______________________
1 Robert II of Scotland. Born on 2 Mar 1315 in Paisley.[1] Robert II
died in Dundonald Castle, Carrick (co. Ayr) on 19 Apr 1390.[1]
Buried in Scone, Athol (co. Perth).[1]
King of Scots, 1371 -1390.
Lord High Steward of Scotland, 1327 - 1371
fought at Halidon Hill, 19 Jul 1333
succeeded uncle (David II) as King of Scots, 1371
he m. 1stly Elizabeth Mure,
2ndly Euphemia of Ross[1]
cf. Scots Peerage (Kings of Scots)[1],
Thompson and Hansen 13(1):92 #1078, 14(2):207 #1152[2]
On 22 Nov 1347 when Robert II was 32, he married Elizabeth Mure.[1]
2 Walter Stewart. Walter died on 9 Apr 1326.[3],[1]
Born in 1292.[1] Occupation: Lord High Steward of Scotland.
Lord High Steward 1309-1327[1]
commander (nominal-active commander, Sir James Douglas) of the right
schiltrom at Bannockburn, 24 June 1314 (Barrow p. 322)[4]
Regent of Scotland during King Robert's expedition to Ireland, 1316[1]
Surety of the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[4]
he m. 1stly Marjory Bruce,
2ndly Isabel Graham
In 1315 when Walter was 23, he married Marjory Bruce.[1]
3 Marjory Bruce. Marjory died on 2 Mar 1315 in in childbirth.[1]
first wife
captured with Queen Elizabeth of Scots (her stepmother) and other family
members at Tain by William, Earl of Ross, Sept. 1306; following her
delivery to English justice, she was
' .. at first ordered by King Edward to be kept in a similar cage
[to that housing her aunt Mary Bruce and the Countess Isabel of
Buchan] in the Tower of London, and not to be allowed to speak
to anyone, or be spoken to by anyone, save the Constable of the
Tower. For some unrecorded reason Edward revoked this horrifying
piece of savagery, and Marjorie Bruce was sent to the Yorkshire
Gilbertine nunnery at Watton.' [G.W.S. Barrow, pp. 230-1, citing
Palgrave, Docs. Hist. Scot., 359; and the Chronicle of Guisborough,
369][4]
following the English defeat at Bannockburn, June 1314, she and others
were exchanged for Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex[4]
4 James le Steward. James died in 1309.[1] Occupation: Lord High Steward
of Scotland.
Lord High Steward 1283-1309[1]
created Sheriff of Kintyre [Kintyre, Bute, the Cumbraes and prob. Arran]
under the ordinance of 1293[4]
Guardian of the kingdom of Scots (elected at the Parliament at Scone,
April 1286)[4]
supporter of King Robert the Bruce - attended the Scots Parliament at
St. Andrews, March 1308/9 (Barrow p. 265)[4]
James married Giles (Egidia) de Burgh.
5 Giles (Egidia) de Burgh.
'Egidia, sister of Richard de Burgh'
(SP I:14, citing Cal. Doc. Scot., ii. No. 847)[1]
6 Robert I 'the Bruce'. Born on 11 Jul 1274 in prob. Turnberry,
Carrick, Scotland.[4] Robert I 'the Bruce' died in Cardross Castle,
Dumbartons., Scotland on 7 Jun 1329, he was 54.[4]
King of Scots, 1306-1329.
'Robert the Bruce'
[England] of Writtle and Hatfield, Essex & c.[5]
Earl of Carrick on his father's resignation 9 Nov 1292
murdered cousin John Comyn of Badenoch at Dumfries, 10 Feb 1305/6[4]
his manors of Hatfield Regis, Writtle (and Great Baddow), Essex
'taken into the king's hands', 6 March 1305/6 [forfeited] -
Farrer, HKF II:47[6]
crowned King of Scots 25 Mar 1306 at Scone
victor of Bannockburn , 24/5 Jun 1314[4]
ref. Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland, G.W.S.
Barrow
Robert I 'the Bruce' married Isabel of Mar.
7 Isabel of Mar.
1st wife[1]
8 Alexander le Steward. Alexander died in 1283, he was 69.[1] Born in
1214.[1] Occupation: Lord High Steward of Scotland.
steward of Scotland
one of the Regents of Scotland during the minority of Alexander III,
1255
commander of the right wing against Haakon of Norway, Battle of Largs,
1263 (SP I:13)[1]
Alexander married Jean of Bute.
9 Jean of Bute.
10 Walter de Burgh. Walter died on 28 Jul 1271.[5] Occupation: Earl
of Ulster.
Lord of Connaught; Earl of Ulster, 1266-1271
'Item Ob. dominus W. de Burgo comes Ultonie et dominus Conactie
prothdolor [sic] v. Kal. Augusti in die sanctorum Nazarii et Celsi.'
Annales de Monte Fernandi, 1271[7]
ca 1257 Walter married Aveline FitzJohn.[8]
11 Aveline FitzJohn. Aveline died ca 20 May 1274.[8]
sister and coheiress of Richard, Lord FitzJohn
12 Robert Bruce. Robert died bef 4 Apr 1304, he was 60.[4],[5] Born
in Jul 1243.[5] Occupation: Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris;
Lord Brus.
Earl of Carrick, de jure uxoris
[England] of Writtle and Hatfield, Essex & c.[5]
performed homage and had livery of his father's English lands,
4 Jul 1295
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by writ directed
'Roberto de Brus comiti de Carrik'[5]
summoned to Parliament (England) from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
'Roberto de Brus', held thereby to have become Lord Brus[5]
Earl of Carrick in right of his wife; resigned Earldom to son, 9
Nov 1292; Lord of Annandale 1292-1304[4]
In 1271 when Robert was 27, he married Marjorie of Carrick.[5]
13 Marjorie of Carrick. Marjorie died bef 9 Nov 1292.[4] Occupation:
Countess of Carrick suo jure.
her husband resigned the Earldom of Carrick to his son 9 Nov 1292,
following her death[5]
14 Donald of Mar. Donald died aft 25 Jul 1297.[9] Occupation: Earl
of Mar ca 1281-1297.
Earl of Mar
Gael. Domhnall
Donald married Elen.
15 Elen. Elen died aft Feb 1294.[9]
reported by the historian Fordun as a daughter of 'Llywelyn, Prince of
Wales' (taken to be Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, aka Llywelyn Fawr).
This identification presents chronological difficulties, given her
reputed birthdate (1234), the reported date of her son Colban
MacDuff [by first husband Malcolm, Earl of Fife] ca. 1250 and
additional children by Donald, Earl of Mar from ca. 1272 onward[9]
she m. lstly Malcolm, Earl of Fife,
2ndly Donald, Earl of Mar
16 Walter le Steward. Walter died in 1241.[1] Occupation: seneschal
and justiciar of Scotia.
Walter married Beatrix of Angus.
17 Beatrix of Angus.
18 Seumas mac Angus. Seumas died in 1210. Occupation: master of Bute.
Seumas married NN.
19 NN.
20 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 17 Feb 1242.[10] Occupation:
Lord of Connaught.
Lord of Connaught 1206-1227; Justiciar of Ireland 1228-1232
bef 21 Apr 1225 Richard married Giles (Egidia) de Lacy.[10]
21 Giles (Egidia) de Lacy. Giles (Egidia) died aft 1242.[10]
her maritagium included 5 cantreds in Eoganacht: a fine of 21 April
1225 made by one William de Worcester obtained a mandate to the
Justice of Ireland to give seisin of certain lands,
'...salvo Ric'o de Burgo quinto cant'do scil cantredo de Joganach
Cassel que Walt's de Lascy dedit ei i maritagiu cu Egidia filia
sua; salvo dno Regi homag pdci Rici de Burg de tenemto qd de dno
R. tenet inf' pdcos cantredos.' [Excerpta I:128][11]
22 Sir John FitzGeoffrey. Sir John died on 23 Nov 1258.[8] Occupation:
lord of Berkhamsted, Justiciar of Ireland.
of Shere, co. Surrey and Fambridge, co. Essex
created Justiciar of Ireland, 4 Nov 1245 (held office until 1256);
received from Henry III the manor of Whaddon, 14 Nov 1242, and
the cantred of the Isles in Thomond before 3 Sept 1254[5]
2nd husband of Isabel le Bigod [5]
aft 1229 Sir John married Isabel le Bigod.
23 Isabel le Bigod.
she m. lstly Gilbert de Lacy
2ndly Sir John fitz Geoffrey
24 Robert Bruce. Born in 1210.[4] Robert died in Lochmaben Castle on
31 Mar 1295, he was 85.[5],[4] Buried on 17 Apr 1295 in Guisborough
Priory.[5] Occupation: Lord of Annandale.
Lord of Annandale
[England] of Writtle and Hatfield, Essex & c.[5]
allegedly designated successor of Alexander II, c. 1251[4]
supporter of King Henry III in England, April 1264 at Nottingham;
fought at Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264 (captured by de Montfort's
forces) - ransomed by son Robert[4]
his brother (or son) Richard de Brus had grant of the marriage and
custody of the lands of Ralph de Tosny, 8 August 1265 * [probable
as reward for support of King Henry III at Evesham and before -
originally granted to Humphrey de Bohun and Edmund of Lancaster,
12 May 1264][5]
* order for William de St. Omer to delivery him to
'Richard' de Brus, 19 Sept 1265 [CP Vol. XII/I,
Tony, p. 773 and note b, citing Cal. Patent Rolls and
Close Rolls][5]
competitor for the Scottish succession, 1292[1]
In 1292, the market at Ireby, Cumberland was held by ' Robert de Brus,
the elder, and Cristiana his wife,' the heir of the grantee [William
de Ireby] under a charter granted by King Henry III, 29 Nov 1236
(QW, p. 124).[12]
abt 1240 when Robert was 30, he married Isabel de Clare[1].
25 Isabel de Clare.[1] Born on 8 Nov 1226.[5] Isabel died bef 10 May
1275, she was 48.[5]
1st wife[1]
26 Neil of Carrick. Neil died in 1256. Occupation: Earl of Carrick.
Earl of Carrick
Gael. Niall [Latin: Nigellus]
co-Lord of the Glens of Antrim[1]
28 William of Mar. William died in 1281. Occupation: Earl of Mar - 1281.
chamberlain of Scotland
'In 1270 he was sent to England, accompanied by the Abbot of
Dunfermline, on a mission for the recovery of the Earldom of
Huntingdon. By a charter dated at Falkland on the 23rd of January,
1268, witnessed by his sons, Donald and Duncan, he confirmed to the
canons of St Andrews the grants made to them by his grandfather,
Morgund, Earl of Mar, of the church of Tarland, and by his grandmother,
Countess of Mar, of the church of Migvie; and, further, granted an acre
of land, lying between the church and the castle of Migvie, for a manse
to the vicar serving the cure.'
he m. lstly Elizabeth Comyn,
2ndly Muriel of Strathearn (Sanders, pp. 100-1)[13]
William married Elizabeth Comyn.
29 Elizabeth Comyn.
identified as mother of Donald of Mar [Young, p. 159][14]
lst wife of Donald, Earl of Mar
1. "The Scots Peerage," Sir James Balfour Paul, ed.. 1904-1914
(9 volumes).
2. Neil D Thompson and Charles M Hansen, ""A Medieval Heritage: The
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England"," The Genealogist,
2:157-168, 3:25-44, 3:175-194, 4:144-158, 5:64-72, 5:226-239,
6:100-103, 6:148-165,, 7-8:137-143, 9:40-44, 10:73-85, 11:63-72,
11:184-193, 12:83-90, 12:250-256, 13:92-99, 13:252-256, 14:81-84,
14:207-210, 15:99-103, 15:220-224, 16:93-98, 16:227-231, 17:61-64,
a graphical summary of this ambitious project provided by the
Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, URL:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/
3. Leo van de Pas, "Stewart Saga - TWO," Dec 12, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
4. "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland," G. W. S.
Barrow, Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
5. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain
and the United Kingdom.
6. "Honors and Knights' Fees," William Farrer, Litt.D., London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:,
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
7. "Annales de Monte Fernandi," (annals of the monastery of Domus
Strada, co. Mayo), University College Cork,
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L100005/
project CELT: The Corpus of Electronic Texts.
8. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen
Pub Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
9. John Ravilious, Tim Powys-Lybbe & others, "Elen ferch Llywelyn and
the Earls of Mar," Nov 21, 2001, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cf.
early discussion by Suzanne Doig, Richard Borthwick & others (SGM,
1997-98).
10. "Juliane Fitz Maurice, wife of Thomas de Clare," Douglas Richardson,
RootsWeb list message (GEN-MEDIEVAL-L), 20 Feb, 2000.
11. "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," Charles Roberts, The Commissioners
of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835,
full title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi
asservatis, Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
12. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
13. "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327,"
I. J. Sanders, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
14. "The Comyns: Robert the Bruce's Rivals, 1212-1314," Alan Young,
Tuckwell Press (East Linton, Scotland), 1997.
_______________________
* John P. Ravilious
wils...@paradise.net.nz
Henry II, King of England Hamelin, 5th Earl of Surrey
John I, Lackland, King of England Isabel Plantagenet
Henry III, King of England Hugh, 3rd Earl of Norfolk Bigod
Edward I, King of England Isabel Bigod
Edward II, King of England Avelina FitzJohn
Edward III, King of England Egidia de Burgh
Walter, 6th Hereditary Steward
Robert II, King of Scots.
Robert II, King of Scots. Stewart
is the 5th cousin, twice removed of
Edward III, King of England
On 8 Aug 2003 12:15:12 -0700, royala...@msn.com (Douglas
Richardson) wrote:
Researching: Lowther of Lowther,Westmoreland:Clifford Yks:Brennan,Ballyhack,Wexford:Fitzgibbon,of French Park Rosscommon:Prendergast Waterford:Rowsell & Gregory, Yeovill Som:Wilson,Stockholm:Peters,Hamburg
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
Yes, it's true that the English kings were descended from Malcolm
Canmore, King of Scotland. However, this is far too distant a
relationship for them to have acknowledged in the late 1300's. As a
general rule, kings acknowledged kinship when it fell within the 5th
degree of kinship (4th cousin). Once a kinship was more distant than
this, no acknowledgement was made of the relationship.
As such, it would appear that King Edward III of England and King
Robert II of Scotland share some other kinship in their ancestry than
what is presently known. It should fall somewhere within the 5th
degree of kinship.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
moody...@cox.net ("Phil Moody") wrote in message news:<005c01c35de6$5d9c6e20$1a69...@tu.ok.cox.net>...
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, Phil, et al.,
An avenue for resolving the relationship between Robert II,
King of Scots and Edward III of England (found by Douglas
Richardson in Foedera - 1st post in this thread) has been
identified.
One near relation of Robert II has been identified as being
related to Edward I of England, with the relationship not yet
resolved. In Douglas Richardson's as-yet unpublished manuscript
for "Plantagenet Ancestry (3rd ed)", there is evidence found in
the Chancery Warrants. One document in that collection records
that Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326) was styled by
Edward I as "king's cousin" [1]. The existence of this
relationship is further supported in the published Letters of
Edward [II], Prince of Wales, which Douglas also cites as
identifying this same Richard de Burgh (called "Earl of Ulster"
in the specific letter) as "cousin" [2].
The ancestry of Richard de Burgh is relatively well known,
with the significant exception of his great-grandmother, the wife
of William de Burgh, lord of Connaught (d. 1205). She was
previously identified as a daughter of Donnell/Domnall O'Brian,
king of Thomond: this has been corrected, as shown by Stewart
Baldwin (and possibly others) to show that this individual was
possibly a wife of William de Burgh, but not the mother of his
heir and successor in Connaught, Richard de Burgh (d. before 17
Feb 1242/3) [3]. The identity of the mother of Richard de Burgh,
ancestor of the Earls of Ulster, then reverted to "unknown".
It now appears likely that this unidentified wife of William
de Burgh was well connected with the royal house of England. This
would not be the sole example of such high association for the de
Burgh family in that generation - witness the marriages of Hubert
de Burgh, to the Countess of Gloucester as well as a daughter of
King William _the Lion_ [4].
Given the chronology both for William de Burgh and his
immediate descendants, I would suggest his wife was likely an
otherwise unidentified illegitimate daughter of Henry II of
England. Such a connection would yield the following
relationships:
~~~ NOTE: The following chart is conjectural ~~~
Eleanor = Henry II ~ _________
of Aquitaine I of England I
_______________I _ _ _ _ _
I I
John of England William de Burgh = NN
I d. 1205 I
I ____________I
I I
Henry III of England Richard de Burgh = bef 21 Apr 1225
I d. bef Feb 1242/3 I
I _____________I
I I
* EDWARD I of Walter de Burgh = Aveline FitzJohn
England d. 28 July 1271 I
I ____________________I________
I I I
* EDWARD II of RICHARD DE BURGH Giles (Egidia)
England d bef 29 Jul 1326 = James the Stewart
I * "Cousin" [E I, E II] I
I = Margaret [de Guines ?] I
I ____I_______ I
I I I I
** EDWARD III of V Elizabeth Walter the Stewart
England = Robert _the_ = Marjory Bruce
I Bruce (2nd wife) I
V I I
V ROBERT II
KING OF SCOTS
** "Our Cousin" [E III]
If such was the relationship of the de Burghs of Ulster to the
royal family of England, Richard de Burgh (d. 1326) was 2nd cousin
1x removed to Edward I and 3rd cousin to Edward II, both of whom
addressed him as "cousin". Robert II of Scotland, addressed by
Edward III of England as "our cousin", would then have been 4th
cousin 1x removed to that English king. Interestingly, it would
also make Elizabeth de Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I (the Bruce) of
Scotland, a 2nd cousin 2x removed to her captor (in 1306) Edward
I of England.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
________________
NOTES
[1] Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: Medieval and
Colonial Families of Plantagenet Descent (publication pending),
p. 13. Citation: Cal. Chancery Warrants (1927):261.
[2] Ibid., p. 15. Citation: H. Johnstone, Letters of Edward
Prince of Wales, 1304-1305 (1931): 17.
[3] Stewart Baldwin, <Re: Donnell O'Brien, king of Thomond>,
SGM, 29 August 2001. In part this reads,
" The primary source making the claim that William de Burgh married
a daughter of Domnall Mór is the Book of Lecan (an early fifteenth
century manuscript), folio 82r. It is in a genealogical tract on
the sept known as Uí Maine (later Hy-Many), and was given with an
English translation in John O'Donovan's "The Tribes and Customs
of Hy-Many" (Dublin, 1843), p. 44 (Irish) and p. 45 (English
translation). The full text of the relevant paragraph is as
follows:
Irish:
Sé meic Domnaill Moir, mic Taidg Taillten, .i. Concobar, ocus
Tadg Find Maigi Ruscach, ocus Eogan, ocus Tomas Espoc, ocus
Lochlaind, ocus Diarmaid. Ingen Domnall Moir h-I Bhriain, mathair
an t-seisir sin, ocus derbsiur di mathair Fheidlimid, mic
CathailCroib-deirg, ocus derbsiur eli doib mathair Ricaird, mic
Uilliam Find, o fuil Clann Ricaird.
[Note: The manuscript contains numerous abbreviated forms, which
are silently expanded by O'Donovan. For example, the word "ocus"
is always an ampersand in the manuscript. There are a few cases
where lenition (given by a following "h" in modern Irish) is given
as a dot over the letter by O'Donovan, and I have given it by a
following "h", due to the lack of the relevant symbols on computer
keyboards.]
O'Donovan's English translation:
Domhnall Mor, the son of Tadhg Taillten, had six sons,
viz., Conchobhar, Tadhg Finn of Magh Ruscach, Eoghan, Thomas the
Bishop, Lochlainn, and Diarmaid. The daughter of Domnall Mor
O'Brien was the mother of these six sons, and her sister was the
mother of Feidlimidh, the son of Cathal Croibhdherg [Charles the
Redhanded] O'Conor, and another sister was the mother of Rickard,
son of William Finn, from whom are the Clann-Rickard.
[Notes: In a note at the bottom, O'Donovan gives 1263 as the date
of death for Thomas the Bishop. O'Donovan has apparently
modernized the spellings of the names to nineteenth century forms.
The anglicization of "Charles" for "Cathal" would have been later,
and it is not likely that Cathal would have been known as "Charles"
in his own lifetime. The bracket after "Redhanded was misplaced by
O'Donovan, and should have been put after "O'Conor", which is also
not in the manuscript.]
The tract, as it exists now, could not have been written before
the year 1378, for it refers (p.49 of O'Donovan's translation) to
a "Muichertach the Bishop" who is known to have become bishop in
that year. On the other hand, the writer was giving an account of
the sept Uí Maine, and there would have been no obvious motive for
him to invent a mother for Richard de Burgh. Thus, it seems likely
that he was either updating an earlier account, or had some other
written source for the statement.
However, even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the
above account from the Book of Lecan is correct as it is given,
there is another problem, and that is that the descents from this
family which are relevant to most people follow through William's
son Richard (d. 1243), so the marriage, even if true, does not do
much good (for the purposes of tracing ancestry from Domnall)
unless this Richard can be shown to be a son of that marriage.
In the genealogical table in volume 9 of "A New History of
Ireland", p. 170, the Clanricard line of the Burkes is traced
back to a certain Richard "the younger", who is then given
(with a dotted line) as a possible younger son of William de
Burgh (d. 1205), and thus as a same-named brother of Richard
(d. 1243), ancestor of the de Burgh earls of Ulster. A note
at the bottom the page of that genealogical table states:
"The origins of the Clanricard line are not absolutely proven,
but the descent given is that of the best Irish genealogical
sources, and is not contradicted by contemporary sources."
Thus, if this is correct, the statement of the Book of Lecan
would apply to the younger Richard, and not to the Richard who
died in 1243, who would then likely be a son of William by another
marriage. Thus, if we accept the account of the Book of Lecan as
being accurate, it would apply to the Richard who died in 1243
only if it could be shown that he (and not a younger brother of
the same name) were the ancestor of the Burghs of Clanricard. "
[4] CP VII:133-142, sub Kent.
Reedpcgen
>Canmore, King of Scotland. However, this is far too distant a
>relationship for them to have acknowledged in the late 1300's. As a
>general rule, kings acknowledged kinship when it fell within the 5th
>degree of kinship (4th cousin).
>degree of kinship (4th cousin). Once a kinship was more distant than
>this, no acknowledgement was made of the relationship.
I think that's a rather tenuous, if not dangerous assumption, at least where
king's are concerned. When one is referring to a "blood relation" and such
connection is well known to all (St. Margaret and her ancestry), why should
such a reference not be made, especially if the king might not have immediately
been aware of a more obscure maternal trail, instead of making reference to an
important historical relationship.
"As a general rule...." A general rule is exactly that, general. It's
dangerous to get stuck in one's mind that something HAS to be a certain way
(such as the assumption that 'friend' also meant kinsman) and then discard the
obvious (IMHO).
Paul
GRHa...@aol.com
Edward I, King of England
Henry III, King of England
John "Lackland", King of England
Henry II, King of England
Geoffrey V Count of Anjou, Count of Anjou
Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster
Avelina FitzJohn
Isabel Bigod
Hugh Bigod, Earl of Norfolk
Ida (Isobel) Plantagenet
Hamelin
Geoffrey V Count of Anjou
I believe this would make the relationship as 3rd cousins, twice removed.
Gordon Hale
Phil Moody
Thank you for the clarification. Here we are looking for possible
relationships to people more than a thousand years old, and we view these
connections as valid relationships. This being my perspective of
relationships; I obviously misunderstood the context of your question:-)
Let me take this opportunity to clarify something David Webb brought to my
attention. King Stephen was not directly descended from Malcolm (III), but it
was his wife who was Malcolm's grand-daughter. Another fine example of my
faulty recollection:-)
The...@aol.com
Dear Gordon, Dot, et al.
The relationship between the de Burgh family and the Kings of England
(13th-14th centuries) would not be found through the Bigod family, at least
not as we know it through the mother of the MC Surety, Hugh le Bigod, Earl
of Norfolk (d. bef 18 Feb 1224/5).
Ida, wife of Roger and mother of Hugh, certainly had Plantagenet
connections, but this was as mistress to Henry II and mother of William
Longespee (cf. various SGM threads, esp. of 2002/3). If she was the
daughter of Henry's half-brother Hamelin, well, that sounds more Hapsburg
than Henryesque.
Might I ask, whence the identification of Hugh's mother as a child of
Hamelin? From an earlier SGM thread:
" In CP Vol XII/I, under Surrey, the total issue of the marriage of Hamelin
and Isabel (p. 500, note g) appear to be four, as follows:
.1. William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey, d. 27 May 1240
[ancestor of subsequent Earls of Surrey, not to mention the first Lord
Percy and subsequent Earls of Northumberland, the latter FitzAlan Earls of
Arundel, and a cast too numerous to mention]
.2. Ela de Warenne, who m. 1) Robert de Newburn, and 2) William FitzWilliam
of Sprotborough
.3. Isabel de Warenne, who m. 1)Robert de Lascy, and 2) Gilbert de L'Aigle,
lord of Pevensey
.4. Maud, who m. 1) Henry de Hastings [as above mentioned], and 2)Henry de
Stuteville, of Eckington, co. Derby
[by her first husband, ancestress of subsequent Counts of Eu; and through
her granddaughter Maud d'Eu or de Lusignan, wife of Humphrey de Bohun, 2nd
Earl of Hereford (d. 1275), also an extensive cast of characters including
King Henry V of England, and Thomas de Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick (d.
1369)] " [1]
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] John Ravilious, <Hamelin d'Anjou, Earl of Surrey - a FitzWilliam
Ancestor ?>, SGM, 18 Nov 2001.
* John P. Ravilious
Phil Moody
I think you have a fair point. The thought occurred to me, perhaps we could
use England's claim to the French throne as a litmus test of how far Monarch's
viewed familial relationships. I know to little about the English claim to the
French throne, but perhaps someone is aware of whence it began, and when
England finally gave up any pretense to the French throne. How distantly
related were the Kings of England and France removed from one another when
this issue was resolved?
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
The...@aol.com
Dear Phil, et al.,
The claim to the French throne by the English monarchs stems from Edward
II's marriage to Isabella (the She-wolf to some) of France, daughter of Philip
IV.
Philip III of France
_______________I__________________
I I
Philip IV Charles of Valois
_________________________________ I_________
I I I I I
Louis Philip Charles Isabella Philip VI
X V IV = Edward II
I of England
I I
I I
John (Jean) I Edward III
The daughters of the sons of Philip IV were passed over, as the throne
went (with the exception of Jean I, King in 1316) from brother to brother.
With the death of Charles IV in 1328, the direct male Capetian line had
daughtered out, and cousin Philip of Valois was chosen as the next King (reigned
1328-1350).
The contest really got into gear in 1337, with added friction between the
government of Edward III of England and that of Philip VI in Paris with
regard to Edward's lands in France. The claim of Edward III is technically based
on primogeniture, vs. the claim (in Paris) to adhere to 'Salic' law with
inheritance in the male line only.
Of course, in Plantagenet Poker, a few hundred cavalry and archers (with
a few thousand infantry) beats Dieu et Mon Droit. Not just a Highland
tradition: just ask Guillaume le Conquerant.
Cheers,
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Jeffery A. Duvall
claim to the French throne, at the outset of the Hundred Years War, wasn't
it through his mother Isabelle of France? As the grandson of Philip IV and
nephew of the last three (adult) Capetian kings (Louis X, Philip V, and
Charles IV), Edward III maintained that his claim to the French throne was
superior to that of his rival Philip VI (founder of the Valois dynasty) who
was also the grandson of a French king (Philip III), but only the first
cousin of those same last three Capetian monarchs.
So unless I've missed something, by the time you get to the generation of
Henry V, you're dealing with ggg-grandchildren of Philip IV. Of course
Henry V married another French princess and arranged to have himself (and
thus his son and heir, Henry VI) recognized as the heir to the French throne
in 1420 with the Treaty of Troyes. By the mid-15th century, however, the
English were more or less confined to Calais and were never in a position to
push their claims to the French crown.
Still, according to one of my books (*Lines of Sucession: Heraldry of the
Royal Families of Europe*), the English monarchs continued to style
themselves Kings of France until 1801...
Jeff Duvall
Phil Moody
Thank you for explaining the origin of England's claim to the French throne!
Let me see if I understand the situation. For the purpose of measuring the
consanguinity of the two rival Monarchs, we would use Philip (III) as the
common ancestor of both lines? If this is the beginning, then we just need to
establish the end to determine how far removed these Monarch's were when
England gave up their claim to France.
PAF Gives this relationship at the outset: Philip VI FRANCE and Edward III
ENGLAND are 1st cousins 1 time removed. Their common ancestors are Philip III
FRANCE. I do not have a good grasp of how to calculate consanguinity, but
would it be the same as the relationship calculated by PAF?
Best wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
The...@aol.com
Dear Phil,
In essence, because the counting of degrees of
consanguinity starts with siblings, you will basically
have one number higher (in determining degrees of
consanguinity) than you will in counting "degrees" of
cousinage:
Examples:
Cousin Description Consanguinity
(1)
Philip VI of 1st cousins, 2nd &
France -> once removed 3rd degrees
Edward III of
England
(3)
Jean II (son of 2nd cousins 3rd degree
Philip VI) -> [also desc. as
Edward III of "3rd & 3rd"]
England
Not sure how the PAF program will present things, but
this is how the two forms of relationship description
"relate" to one another.
Hope this is helpful.
Cheers,
John
Phil Moody
Thank you the explanation. Now let me see if I understood you correctly.
If PAF calculates this relationship: Henry V ENGLAND and Philip VI FRANCE are
1st cousins 4 times removed. Their common ancestors are Philip III FRANCE;
then in effect, the consanguinity would be in the 5th degree?
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
Doug McDonald
[and on to Robert II of SCotland, with no quibble]
> Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster
> Avelina FitzJohn
> Isabel Bigod
> Hugh Bigod, Earl of Norfolk
> Ida (Isobel) Plantagenet
> Hamelin
> Geoffrey V Count of Anjou
>
> I believe this would make the relationship as 3rd cousins, twice removed.
>
> Gordon Hale
And it would make Richardson's book a lot bigger, if
Robert II was a descendent on Geoffrey!
I have left the ancestry of Countess Ida out of
my own files, as I never was happy with that all that
long thread. And I have "vast" numbers of descents from Robert II.
Doug McDonald
Rick Eaton
Your wrote:
> I may be going out on a limb here, but if you're referring to Edward III's
> claim to the French throne, at the outset of the Hundred Years War, wasn't
> it through his mother Isabelle of France?
It is a long limb; you are most safe. And. I believe that you are quite
right: Edward III held the Duchy of Aquitaine, it was through his mother
that he claimed of seniority in succession to the French throne in in his
name that his bellicose mother acted so often. He was, indeed, the
great-grandson of Philip III, and grandson of Philip IV and Joan of
Champagne and Vavarre. Your statement that Edward believed he had a superior
claim is supported in many histories, not the least of which is Anthony
Tuck's "Crown and Nobility," second edition, published 1999 by Blackwell),
which I am in the middle of now.
Still studying so that I can attempt to keep up with you geniuses :-)
By the way, does anyone know if the relationship between Mortimer and
Isabella produce any offspring?
Rick Eaton
Douglas Richardson
The kings of England appear to have been very well informed as to
their names and identities of their near kinsfolk. When the
ancestries of the other parties are fully known, the kinship of people
addressed as "king's kinsman" or "king's kinswoman" usually falls
within the 4th degree of kinship (3rd cousins), and, almost never
beyond the 5th degree of kinship (4th cousins), at least on one side
of the relationship.
I'm uncertain as to why the 5th degree was the litmus test of kinship.
I assume it had to do with the church's prohibition on marriages that
were 4th degree or closer. Whatever the explanation, I can cite many,
many examples to prove that the 5th degree of kinship was the usual
limit as to whether or not the king acknowledged a relationship. Once
a kinship moved past the 5th degree on both sides, it was not
acknowledged by the king.
When I have a chance later today, I'll try to post some examples of
how the process of acknowledging kinship worked in this time period.
Hopefully some other posters can share examples of their own.
Douglas Richardson
You're almost certainly on the right track singling out the Burgh
family as being the link to the English royal family in the ancestry
of King Robert II of Scotland. As you have noted, King Robert II's
great-uncle, Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, was styled "king's
kinsman." In this case, it appears that the Burgh family's kinship to
the English royal family has been largely ignored, because it can not
be readily explained. Regardless, the kinship must have been fairly
close, if King Robert II was related in the 5th degree on at least one
side to King Edward III of England.
It goes without saying, John, that I'm very impressed with your
analysis. Also, your charts are extremely helpful. Keep up the good
work!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<18d.1dfa79...@aol.com>...
Douglas Richardson
Regarding Wilson's chart below and Gordon's chart in his post, there
is a mistake in the pedigree that both of you have set forth.
Hamelin, Earl of Surrey, was NOT the grandfather of Hugh Bigod, Earl
of Norfolk.
For an accurate account of Earl Hamelin's children, I recommend you
read the material on Hamelin's family found in the book, Early
Yorkshire Charters, volume 8 (1949): 1–26. This book is authoritative
and well documented.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wils...@paradise.net.nz wrote in message news:<3f344bce...@news.paradise.net.nz>...
> Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou. Plantagenet
>
> Henry II, King of England Hamelin, 5th Earl of Surrey
>
> John I, Lackland, King of England Isabel Plantagenet
>
> Henry III, King of England Hugh, 3rd Earl of Norfolk Bigod
>
> Edward I, King of England Isabel Bigod
>
> Edward II, King of England Avelina FitzJohn
>
> Edward III, King of England Egidia de Burgh
>
> Walter, 6th Hereditary Steward
>
> Robert II, King of Scots.
> Robert II, King of Scots. Stewart
>
> is the 5th cousin, twice removed of
>
> Edward III, King of England
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8 Aug 2003 12:15:12 -0700, royala...@msn.com (Douglas
> Richardson) wrote:
>
> >Dear Newsgroup ~
> >
> >I've located references to kinship between the Plantagenet kings and
> >the Scottish royal family which I'm unable to explain.
> >
> >I find that Robert II, King of Scotland, was called "Illustris
> >Principis, Roberti Consanguinei nostri de Scotia" [illustrious prince,
> >Robert our kinsman of Scotland] in 1373 by King Edward III of England
> >[Reference: Thomas Rymer, Foedera 7 (1728): 2?3, 9?10].
Douglas Richardson
You have have correctly identified King Robert II's great-grandmother
as Ellen, wife of Donald, Earl of Mar (died 1297). This Ellen is
known to have been previously married to Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife
(died 1266). Most sources state that Ellen was the daughter of
Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales.
It appears, however, that Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, actually had two
marriages, not one as usually supposed. He married first about 1230
and certainly before 1237 to an unknown daughter of Llywelyn, Prince
of North Wales. This first wife was evidently the mother of Malcolm's
two sons, Colban [8th Earl of Fife] and Macduff [References: J.
Stephenson, Chronica de Mailros [Chronicle of Melrose] (1835): 142
(wife of Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, identified as daughter of
Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales; C. Innes, Carte Monialium de
Northberwic (1847): 16-17 (document dated 6 July 1237 mentions
"Maurice, servant of the Countess of Fife")].
Following the death of Malcolm's first wife, he married (2nd) Ellen
_____, evidently a much younger woman. She survived him at his death
in 1266, and married (2nd) Donald, Earl of Mar, by whom she had five
children. Ellen was still living in 1295 [References: J. Balfour,
Scots Peerage 4 (1907): 9-10 (sub Fife); 5 (1908): 577-578 (sub Mar)].
Andrew MacEwen of Maine suspects that Malcolm, Earl of Fife's first
wife was Susanna, a known daughter of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales,
by his wife, Joan of England. Susanna was living unmarried in England
in 1228, just before Earl Malcolm married a daughter of Prince
Llywelyn. This matter deserves further study.
Special thanks go to Andrew MacEwen for generously sharing his
thoughts and source material on this matter with me. Andrew is the
essence of the expression "gentleman and scholar."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<10e.24de2d...@aol.com>...
Gordon Kirkemo
I don't recall posting on this subject, but thanks for thinking of me. I
checked my files and found I have Ida Plantagenet as a husband for Roger II
Bigod. My files indicate one source was a posting by Ray Phair on 7/3/02
that I do not have ready to hand. The other is AR7 that simply identifies
her as Ida.
A quick check of the archives turned up a posting by TAF in response to a
related question that might shed some light on this. TAF indicated that
Isabel de Warenne (Plantagenet?) and Ida Plantagenet were one and the same.
Both are listed as married to Roger B. I've included that exchange below.
Perhaps this might explain some of the confusion?
Gordon
CNIDR Isearch-cgi 1.20.06 (File: 106)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:13:58 -0700
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Message-ID: <3C58E0A6...@interfold.com>
Subject: Re: Hamelin Plantagenet
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ajhoward wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone
>
> I am seeking information regarding Hamelin Plantagenet. From World Family
> Tree, I have the following information taken from the World Family Tree
> Volume 4, Pedigree 4004
>
> Hamelin Plantagenet
> Wife: Isabelle Warenne
> Children:
>
> Isabel Warenne
> Born: WFT Est. 1148-1175
> Married: WFT Est. 1168-1198
> Died: WFT Est. 1198-1262
> Spouse: Roger II Bigod
> ?? De Warren
> Born: WFT Est. 1157-1189
> Married:
> Died: WFT Est. 1165-1271
> Spouse: Gilbert De Aquila
>
> From the same Volume 4 but pedigree 2519 there is the following extra
child:
>
> Ida Plantagenet
> Born: WFT Est. 1146-1173
> Married: Bef. 1190
> Died: WFT Bef. 1195-1261
> Spouse: Roger Bigod
>
> Is Isabel and Ida one and the same person??
Yes.
<snip>
-----Original Message-----
From: The...@aol.com [mailto:The...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 9:01 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
Friday, 8 August, 2003
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
* John P. Ravilious
______________________________
Nathaniel Taylor
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
Do the souces cited give positive evidence that the Earl of Fife had two
different wives, or is the argument for two wives based on the
chronological difficulty of the same woman bearing children to both men?
Nat Taylor
Phil Moody
Edward (II)'s daughter Joan married David (II), King of Scots. His parents
were Robert (I) and Elizabeth de Burgh. Would not a dispensation be necessary
if they were already related?
I also see that Edward (III)'s son Lionel of Antwerp married an Elizabeth de
Burgh; so where does she fit in the de Burgh hypothesis? This line produced
King Edward IV, Edward V and Elizabeth of York's marriage to King Henry (VII).
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
John Ravilious
Comments are interspersed below.
moody...@cox.net ("Phil Moody") wrote in message news:<001001c35ea0$5f922f20$1a69...@tu.ok.cox.net>...
> Dear Doug:
>
> Edward (II)'s daughter Joan married David (II), King of Scots. His parents
> were Robert (I) and Elizabeth de Burgh. Would not a dispensation be necessary
> if they were already related?
~ If my theory is correct as to the de Burgh descent is correct,
David II of Scots and Joan of England would have been related
in
the 6th and 5th degrees (4th cousins 1x removed). I believe
this
was one degree beyond their being required to receive
dispensation
for marriage at that time.
>
> I also see that Edward (III)'s son Lionel of Antwerp married an Elizabeth de
> Burgh; so where does she fit in the de Burgh hypothesis? This line produced
> King Edward IV, Edward V and Elizabeth of York's marriage to King Henry (VII).
See below:
Eleanor = Henry II ~ _________
of Aquitaine I of England I
_______________I _ _ _ _ _
I I
John of England William de Burgh = NN
I d. 1205 I
I ____________I
I I
Henry III of England Richard de Burgh = bef 21 Apr 1225
I d. bef Feb 1242/3 I
I _____________I
I I
* EDWARD I of Walter de Burgh = Aveline FitzJohn
England d. 28 July 1271 I
_____I___________ ______I______________________
I I I I
*EDWARD II of Joan = Gilbert RICHARD DE BURGH Giles
(Egidia)
England I de Clare d bef 29 Jul 1326 = James
the
__I_____ I * "Cousin" [E I, E II]
Stewart
I I I = Margaret [de Guines ?] I
I Joan = David I ____I_______ I
I (+) II I I I I
I I I I I
**EDWARD III of Elizabeth = John de Elizabeth Walter
the
England de Clare I Burgh = Robert_the_ Stewart
=
I I Bruce (2nd wife) Marjory
Bruce
I I I I
I William de Burgh David II ROBERT
II
I Earl of Ulster KING OF SCOTS KNG OF
SCOTS
I ____________I = Joan of ** "Our
Cousin"
I I England [E III]
Lionel = Elizabeth
of I de Clare
Antwerp I
I
V
I note that John de Burgh and Elizabeth de Clare (daughter of
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester, d. 1295, by Joan, daughter of
Edward I) would have been related in the 5th degree by the indicated
common descent from Henry II.
~ Also, if the identification of Margaret de Guines by John Carmi
Parsons is correct, this same couple (John de Burgh and
Elizabeth)
were also related in th 5th degree by common descent from Aubri
II
de Dammartin and Maud de Clermont (great-grandparents of
Eleanor of
Castile; theoretically great-great grandparents of Margaret
[de Guines], wife of Richard de Burgh).
>
> Best Wishes,
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:03 PM
> Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
> Rothesay
>
>
>
<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hope the foregoing is helpful.
John
Douglas Richardson
I believe it's possible that William de Burgh's unknown wife was the
daughter not of King Henry II, but rather of his son, King John.
King John had many illegitimate children born over the course of his
adult life. His eldest known illegitimate child, Geoffrey, first
surfaces in 1200 and was clearly acting as an adult by 1204.
If John had an illegitimate daughter of the same age as Geoffrey, she
would have just enough time to marry William de Burgh, produce a
child, and then have William de Burgh die in 1205.
Also, given that we have so many illegitimate sons for King John and
know so few daughters, it stands to reason that we are missing the
names of a few of his daughters.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
the...@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote in message news:<55712d2e.0308...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Phil,
>
> Comments are interspersed below.
>
>
>
> moody...@cox.net ("Phil Moody") wrote in message news:<001001c35ea0$5f922f20$1a69...@tu.ok.cox.net>...
> > Dear Doug:
> >
> > Edward (II)'s daughter Joan married David (II), King of Scots. His parents
> > were Robert (I) and Elizabeth de Burgh. Would not a dispensation be necessary
> > if they were already related?
>
>
> ~ If my theory is correct as to the de Burgh descent is correct,
> David II of Scots and Joan of England would have been related
> in
> the 6th and 5th degrees (4th cousins 1x removed). I believe
> this
> was one degree beyond their being required to receive
> dispensation
> for marriage at that time.
>
Douglas Richardson
Andrew MacEwen of Maine doesn't believe that Ellen, the surviving wife
of Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, to be the same wife he had back in the
1230's. The reason for this is simple. After Malcolm's death in
1266, Ellen married (2nd) Donald, Earl of Mar, and had five children.
If correct, Ellen would have been born no earlier than 1235. If so,
she could not possibly be Malcolm's wife who is named in the 1237
reference I cited. On the other hand, we know that Llywelyn had a
daughter, Susanna, who was living in 1228 in England. She would
easily fit the chronology to be Malcolm's 1st wife in 1237.
If you wish to pursue this matter further, I suggest you contact
Andrew MacEwen directly. He is the resident expert on all things
Scottish.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
P.S. I like your website, by the way.
Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nathanieltaylor-80...@news02.east.earthlink.net>...
Nathaniel Taylor
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
> Dear Nat ~
>
> Andrew MacEwen of Maine doesn't believe that Ellen, the surviving wife
> of Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, to be the same wife he had back in the
> 1230's. The reason for this is simple. After Malcolm's death in
> 1266, Ellen married (2nd) Donald, Earl of Mar, and had five children.
> If correct, Ellen would have been born no earlier than 1235. If so,
> she could not possibly be Malcolm's wife who is named in the 1237
> reference I cited. On the other hand, we know that Llywelyn had a
> daughter, Susanna, who was living in 1228 in England. She would
> easily fit the chronology to be Malcolm's 1st wife in 1237.
Thank you; I suspected that this was essentially a chronological
argument. Pity there is no lead on the identity of Elen, mother-in-law
of Robert 'the' Bruce.
Nat Taylor
dot
In the book "The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland" There is a chart in
the Appendices, Descent to Marjorie Bruce mother of Robert II.
Stewart. king of Scots page 431
according to this chart the answer to'
> Pity there is no lead on the identity of Elen, mother-in-law
>of Robert 'the' Bruce.
is, Helen daughter of Llewelyn II(the last) Prince of Wales
Widow of Malcoln 7th earl of Fife d:1266
Helen is shown to descend from Iago (Jacob) king of Gwynedd Wales d:
1039 Donald 6th earl of Mar d: 1297 is shown to descend from Duncan I
king of Scots d: 1040
I have read lots of comments on this newsgroup about the author
Prince Michael of Albany
but nothing about the charts, I do not have the books in our local
library do double check, even the book Douglas Richardson advised me
to read "Early Yorkshire Charters" Vol 8 1949 just 2 days ago, this
is not listed in New Zealand.
I do try to comment on threads but get shot down in flames by the
loud mouths for the comments,
and since I have changed my email address I was spam free till I made
a comment a month ago. I was getting 80+ a day. since my comments a
month ago they are rolling back in.
If you want any other info plese advise
kind regards
Brendan Wilson
Researching: Lowther of Lowther,Westmoreland:Clifford Yks:Brennan,Ballyhack,Wexford:Fitzgibbon,of French Park Rosscommon:Prendergast Waterford:Rowsell & Gregory, Yeovill Som:Wilson,Stockholm:Peters,Hamburg
Douglas Richardson
I've learned that Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, was styled
"queen's kinsman" by Queen Eleanor of Castile [Reference: Calendar of
Documents Rel. to Ireland, vol. 1, No. 2102]. As noted earlier in
this thread, Earl Richard was elsewhere styled "king's cousin" by
Eleanor's husband, King Edward I [Reference: Cal. Chancery Warrants
(1927): 261 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled "king's
cousin")]. For Earl Richard to be kinsman to both the king and queen,
this suggests that Richard de Burgh likely shared the same ancestry
which Queen Eleanor and King Edward had in common. In this case,
Queen Eleanor and King Edward I are known have had a common descent
from King Henry II of England.
It should be noted that on other occasions, King Edward I carefully
distinguished when he was addressing people related only to his wife.
For examples of his wife's relatives being so stipulated, see Calendar
of Close Rolls, 1279–1288 (1902): 79, 159 (Jacob [James] de Ispannia
styled "queen's kinsman"; James de Ispannia styled "nephew of the
queen the king's consort"), 342 (Alfonsus de Ispannia styled "kinsman
of Queen Eleanor, the King's consort"); Calendar of Chancery Warrants
(1927): 27 (Sir Reynald, Count of Guelders, Duke of Limburg styled
"kinsman of the king's consort, [Eleanor]"), 100 (Sir Ingeram de
Fynles [Fiennes] styled "cousin to Eleanor formerly the king's
consort").
This information fits John Ravilious' hypothesis that Richard de
Burgh's paternal grandmother was an illegitimate daughter of King
Henry II of England. As I've noted in an earlier post, the chronology
would also permit Richard de Burgh's grandmother to be an illegitimate
daughter of King John of England. Either descent would make Richard
de Burgh kinsman to both King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile.
As noted elsewhere, Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, was likewise
styled "cousin" by Edward I and Eleanor's son, Edward, Prince of Wales
(future King Edward II) [Reference: H. Johnstone, Letters of Edward
Prince of Wales 1304–1305 (1931): 17].
The royal Burgh connection is almost certainly the explanation for why
King Robert II of Scotland, great nephew of Richard de Burgh, was
called "kinsman" by King Edward III. A shared descent from either
King Henry II or King John would create a kinship between these
parties of at least the 5th degree on one side.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03081...@posting.google.com>...
John Ravilious
Dear Douglas, et al.,
The information you've found in the prior post, re: Richard de Burgh
being a kinsman of BOTH Edward I of England and his Queen, Eleanor of
Castile, will certainly help in establishing how the de Burghs (and
particularly Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, d. 1326) and King Robert
II of Scots were related to Edward I (and III).
The near descents shared by Edward I and Eleanor of Castile are four:
1. Henry II of England
____________I_____________
I I
John of England Eleanor = Alfonso VIII of Castile
I I
Henry III of England Berengaria = Alfonso IX of Leon
I I
I Ferdinand III of Castile
I_______________________ (and Leon)
I I
Edward I = Eleanor
3rd & 4th degrees (2nd cousins, 1x removed)
2. Louis VI of France
______________I________________________
I I
Louis VII = Constance Pierre/Peter
of France I of Castile seigneur de Courtenay
_________I I__________
I I
Alix = Guillaume Aymer Taillefer = Alice
___I C of Ponthieu C of Angouleme I
I I
Marie = Simon de John = Isabella
_____I Dammartin of England I of Angouleme
I I
I I
Joan = Ferdinand III Henry III
I of Castile/Leon of England
I_____________ ____I
I I
Eleanor = Edward I
5th degree (4th cousins)
3. 1) Berengaria = Alfonso VII = 2) Richilda
of Barcelona I of Leon I of Poland
______________I and Castile I___________
I I
Ferdinand II of Leon Alfonso II = Sancha
I of Aragon I_____
I I
Alfonso IX of Leon (as above) Alfons II
I of Provence
I ______________I
I I
Ferdinand III of Castile Ramon-Berenguer IV
and Leon of Provence
I I
I Eleanor = Henry III
I_________________ ______I of England
I I
Eleanor = Edward I
5th & 4th degrees (3rd cousins 1x removed)
4. Amadeus III of Savoy
______________________I_____________________
I I
Humbert III Alfonso Enriquez = Mahaut
of Savoy K of Portugal I of Savoy
I I
I I
Thomas I Ferdinand II = Urraca
of Savoy of Leon I
I (as above) I_________
I I
Beatrice = Ramon Berenguer IV Alfonso IX
I of Provence of Leon
I _________I
I I
Eleanor = Henry III Ferdinand III
I of England of Castile and Leon
I_______ ___I
I I
Edward I = Eleanor
5th degree (4th cousins)
The last three might theoretically infer that the de Burgh
relationship could originate somehow with a link to France, Savoy or
Leon/Castile. However, these more distant relationships would stand at
the far limit of a recognizable relationship (for the age), not to
mention the extremely unlikely union required between an unknown
daughter of Amadeus III of Savoy, Alfonso VII of Leon/Castile or
Louis VI of France and the Anglo-Norman noble, William de Burgh.
The probability (in terms of chronology, proximity and 'motive'
- given King John's connection to William de Burgh, his loyal servant
in Ireland) seems to lie in an illegitimate child of Henry II (or
possibly, of John himself).
Good luck, and good hunting.
John
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03081...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I've learned that Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, was styled
> "queen's kinsman" by Queen Eleanor of Castile [Reference: Calendar of
> Documents Rel. to Ireland, vol. 1, No. 2102]. As noted earlier in
> this thread, Earl Richard was elsewhere styled "king's cousin" by
> Eleanor's husband, King Edward I [Reference: Cal. Chancery Warrants
> (1927): 261 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled "king's
> cousin")]. For Earl Richard to be kinsman to both the king and queen,
> this suggests that Richard de Burgh likely shared the same ancestry
> which Queen Eleanor and King Edward had in common. In this case,
> Queen Eleanor and King Edward I are known have had a common descent
> from King Henry II of England.
>
> It should be noted that on other occasions, King Edward I carefully
> distinguished when he was addressing people related only to his wife.
> For examples of his wife's relatives being so stipulated, see Calendar
> of Close Rolls, 1279?1288 (1902): 79, 159 (Jacob [James] de Ispannia
> styled "queen's kinsman"; James de Ispannia styled "nephew of the
> queen the king's consort"), 342 (Alfonsus de Ispannia styled "kinsman
> of Queen Eleanor, the King's consort"); Calendar of Chancery Warrants
> (1927): 27 (Sir Reynald, Count of Guelders, Duke of Limburg styled
> "kinsman of the king's consort, [Eleanor]"), 100 (Sir Ingeram de
> Fynles [Fiennes] styled "cousin to Eleanor formerly the king's
> consort").
>
> This information fits John Ravilious' hypothesis that Richard de
> Burgh's paternal grandmother was an illegitimate daughter of King
> Henry II of England. As I've noted in an earlier post, the chronology
> would also permit Richard de Burgh's grandmother to be an illegitimate
> daughter of King John of England. Either descent would make Richard
> de Burgh kinsman to both King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile.
> As noted elsewhere, Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, was likewise
> styled "cousin" by Edward I and Eleanor's son, Edward, Prince of Wales
> (future King Edward II) [Reference: H. Johnstone, Letters of Edward
> Prince of Wales 1304?1305 (1931): 17].
>
> The royal Burgh connection is almost certainly the explanation for why
> King Robert II of Scotland, great nephew of Richard de Burgh, was
> called "kinsman" by King Edward III. A shared descent from either
> King Henry II or King John would create a kinship between these
> parties of at least the 5th degree on one side.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SNIP <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
James Dempster
>Wednesday, 13 August, 2003
>
>
>Dear Douglas, et al.,
>
> The information you've found in the prior post, re: Richard de Burgh
> being a kinsman of BOTH Edward I of England and his Queen, Eleanor of
> Castile, will certainly help in establishing how the de Burghs (and
> particularly Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, d. 1326) and King Robert
> II of Scots were related to Edward I (and III).
>
> The near descents shared by Edward I and Eleanor of Castile are four:
>
<big snip>
Sorry to but in from the cheap seats with something that will no doubt
lead up blind alleys, but this thread has reminded me of something
that came up in the last Tak Tent (newsletter of the Heraldry Society
of Scotland).
In it is a short description of GO MS 36 "Scottish Nobility E" a
document held by the Chief Herald of Ireland. It probably dates from
the early seventeenth century so its not contemporary with events, but
it does have an exceedingly unusual coat of arms for Elizabeth de
Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I of Scots. The illustration of these arms
in "Tak Tent" is less than 1cm square but here is a best efforts
description.
The arms are as follows
Quarterly
1st Argent two lions passant Sable
2nd & 3rd Azure a round object Or (its probably a buckle but it may be
something else). Imagine the head of a Celtic cross where the centre
of the cross is missing. A circle with four straight lines crossing
it, two vertical and two horizontal, which do not meet in the middle
to form a cross. Any cross bar may be too fine, but they do look very
like the round buckles in Armorial de l'Europe de la Toison d'Or
4th Gules a swan Argent
Over all an escutcheon of Hungary, Barry Argent and Gules impaling
Azure upon a triple mount a patriarchal cross Argent.
The usual arms of the de Burghs were hardly obscure but here they have
been ignored completely, not only that but the armorial was compiled
by the Anglo-Irish heraldic establishment rather than a foreign herald
who might have been reliant on heresay. These rather amazing arms for
the Earl of Ulster do seem to be saying something about how they saw
themselves or how later generations of the Anglo-Irish saw them that
might have been missed before.
I have no ideas if any of the families that link Edward I and Eleanor
of Castille, discussed by those much more expert than me, had anything
like these arms, or a claim to Hungary, but I thought it might be
useful to throw this in.
The St Andrews Fund for Scottish Heraldry hopes to publish a critical
edition of the MS at some point in the future but it may be some years
off.
James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
Douglas Richardson
I can confirm the arms of Hungary which you mention in your post.
According to the book, Roll of Arms Henry III, ed. by T.D. Tremlett et
al. (H.S.P., vols. 113-114) (1967), pg. 169, the editor states that
"two coats have been borne for the kingdom of Hungary," namely Barry
argent and gules, AND, Gules a patriarchal cross argent, "which may or
may not stand on a triple mount vert." The editor relates that the
cross appeared under Bela IV, 1235-1270, then disappeared, but
reappeared under Sigismund III, 1386-1437.
I suspect the fourth set of arms you cited involving a swan are for a
family descended from the Counts of Boulogne such as the Counts of
Guines. No arms bearing a swan are found in armorials I checked of
English families for the reigns of King Henry III and Edward I. I
believe the swan arms are probably foreign, just like the arms for
Hungary.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
James Dempster <use...@talksinsentences.nospam.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<rrvkjv88bfjif18e6...@4ax.com>...
James Dempster
Richardson) wrote:
>Dear James ~
>
>I can confirm the arms of Hungary which you mention in your post.
>According to the book, Roll of Arms Henry III, ed. by T.D. Tremlett et
>al. (H.S.P., vols. 113-114) (1967), pg. 169, the editor states that
>"two coats have been borne for the kingdom of Hungary," namely Barry
>argent and gules, AND, Gules a patriarchal cross argent, "which may or
>may not stand on a triple mount vert." The editor relates that the
>cross appeared under Bela IV, 1235-1270, then disappeared, but
>reappeared under Sigismund III, 1386-1437.
>
>I suspect the fourth set of arms you cited involving a swan are for a
>family descended from the Counts of Boulogne such as the Counts of
>Guines. No arms bearing a swan are found in armorials I checked of
>English families for the reigns of King Henry III and Edward I. I
>believe the swan arms are probably foreign, just like the arms for
>Hungary.
>
>Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Sorry, maybe my post was a little obscure.
I knew immediately that I saw the illustration in Tak Tent that the
arms were those of Hungary, and the significance of the swan.
My point was that the complex arms are those attributed to Elizabeth
de Burgh, which suggests to me that there was some sort of tradition
linking her with a family that would have borne at least some variant
of these arms. I can understand an early 17th century document making
heraldic mistakes such as adding a later quartering not borne by the
member of the family concerned, but the arms shown have no obvious de
Burgh attributes.
Why make up such complex arms when the de Burgh arms were known and
variants borne by many Burkes in 17th century Ireland?
Someone thought that Elizabeth was entiled to decidedly Flemish
looking arms with an escutcheon of Hungary, maybe as heiress of her
mother. Whilst it may be a dead end, or a red herring, it strikes me
as a clue as to where to look for the missing royal kinsfolk. I am not
expert in the de Burghs or those Flemings who might have had right to
an escutcheon of Hungary, but since such a possibility for her
ancestry had not been mentioned, I thought the source and the pointer
it gives might be useful.
Douglas Richardson
I think it's rather clear now that the family of Richard de Burgh,
Earl of Ulster (died 1326), was closely related to the English royal
family. But how? You have suggested that Earl Richard de Burgh's
paternal great-grandmother was an illegitimate daughter of King Henry
II. Actually I think a better candidate for the father of this woman
is King Richard I. Richard I is known to have had a bastard son,
Geoffrey. King John also accused Richard of being the father of
another son, Henry, who John appears to have later acknowledged as his
own bastard. Obviously if Richard I had a bastard son, he could also
have had a bastard daughter.
If Richard I was father-in-law to William de Burgh, it would still
make Edward III related to Robert II, King of Scotland, in the 5th
degree on at least one side. This works for me. What do you think?
Can you do a kinship chart for us showing Richard I as a possible
father of William de Burgh's wife?
The Burghs can't have been related to the English kings through Queen
Eleanor of Provence, as one of her near kinswomen is known to have
married Richard, the elder son of Richard de Burgh (died 1243). This
Richard de Burgh died soon after marriage without issue and was
succeeded by his brother, Walter de Burgh (died 1271) [References:
Margaret Howell, Eleanor of Provence (1998): 53, 108 (Alice, wife of
Richard de Burgh [died 1248], probable kinswoman of Queen Eleanor);
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 171, footnote e (sub Ulster)];
Matthew of Paris, Matthći Parisiensis Monachi Sancti Albani Historia
Anglorum 3 (Rolls Ser. 44) (1869): 25].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<18d.1dfa79...@aol.com>...
> Eleanor = Henry II ~ _________
> of Aquitaine I of England I
> _______________I _ _ _ _ _
> I I
> John of England William de Burgh = NN
> I d. 1205 I
> I ____________I
> I I
> Henry III of England Richard de Burgh = bef 21 Apr 1225
> I d. bef Feb 1242/3 I
> I _____________I
> I I
> * EDWARD I of Walter de Burgh = Aveline FitzJohn
> England d. 28 July 1271 I
> I ____________________I________
> I I I
> * EDWARD II of RICHARD DE BURGH Giles (Egidia)
> England d bef 29 Jul 1326 = James the Stewart
> I * "Cousin" [E I, E II] I
> I = Margaret [de Guines ?] I
> I ____I_______ I
> I I I I
> ** EDWARD III of V Elizabeth Walter the Stewart
> England = Robert _the_ = Marjory Bruce
> I Bruce (2nd wife) I
> V I I
> V ROBERT II
> KING OF SCOTS
> ** "Our Cousin" [E III]
>
>
> If such was the relationship of the de Burghs of Ulster to the
> royal family of England, Richard de Burgh (d. 1326) was 2nd cousin
> 1x removed to Edward I and 3rd cousin to Edward II, both of whom
> addressed him as "cousin". Robert II of Scotland, addressed by
> Edward III of England as "our cousin", would then have been 4th
> cousin 1x removed to that English king. Interestingly, it would
> also make Elizabeth de Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I (the Bruce) of
> Scotland, a 2nd cousin 2x removed to her captor (in 1306) Edward
> I of England.
>
> Good luck, and good hunting.
>
> John *
>
>
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, et al.,
As per your request, the following chart reflects the
relationships between Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326)
and his great-nephew, King Robert II of Scots (d. 1390), and
their acknowledged kinsmen, Kings Edward I, II and III of
England, IF the wife of William de Burgh of Connaught (d. 1205)
and mother of his heir Richard (d. 1242/3) was an illegitimate
daughter of Richard 'Coeur-de-Lion', King of England (d. 1199).
The relationships between those individuals whose
relationships were so recognized (see earlier posts in this
thread) would then stand as follows:
1. Edward I of England, to Richard
de Burgh, Earl of Ulster
(styled 'cousin') 2nd cousins 2x removed;
or, 3rd & 5th degrees
2. Edward II of England, to
Richard de Burgh
(styled 'cousin') 3rd cousins 1x removed;
or, 4th & 5th degrees
3. Edward III of England, to
Robert II, K of Scots
(styled 'our cousin') 4th cousins 2x removed;
or, 5th & 7th degrees
Such relationships would (I think we all agree) certainly
have been recognizable, and recognized, at the time between men
of this rank.
Most interestingly, if this is borne out, it would provide
a very wide range of living descendants for the one leader of
the Third Crusade not previously known to have any (likely
including most readers of this list).
Good luck, and good further hunting.
John *
P.S. - This would also mean, amongst other relationships, that
John de Burgh (who dvp in 1313, see (1) below) and his
wife Elizabeth de Clare (granddaughter of Edward I) would
have been related in the 6th and 5th degrees.
____________________________
~~~ NOTE: The following chart is conjectural ~~~
Eleanor = Henry II
of Aquitaine I of England
___I_______________________________
I I
Richard I of England John of England
_ _ _ _ I I
I I
NN (illeg.) = William de Burgh Henry III of England
__________I I
I I
Richard de Burgh Edward I of England
d. bef Feb 1242/3 * "cousin"
I I
I I
Walter de Burgh = Aveline FitzJohn Edward II of England
d. 28 Jul 1271 I * "cousin"
_______________I__________ I
I I I
RICHARD DE BURGH Giles/Egidia Edward III of England
d bef 29 Jul 1326 = James the ** "Our Cousin"
* "Cousin" [E I, E II] Stewart
___I_____________ I_________
I I I
John de Elizabeth Walter the Stewart
Burgh = Robert _the_ = Marjory Bruce
(1) Bruce I
I
Nathaniel Taylor
> ... Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326) was styled by
> Edward I as "king's cousin" [1]. ...
>
> The ancestry of Richard de Burgh is relatively well known,
> with the significant exception of his great-grandmother, the wife
> of William de Burgh, lord of Connaught (d. 1205). ...
> The identity of the mother of Richard de Burgh,
> ancestor of the Earls of Ulster, then reverted to "unknown".
>
> It now appears likely that this unidentified wife of William
> de Burgh was well connected with the royal house of England. ...
>
> Given the chronology both for William de Burgh and his
> immediate descendants, I would suggest his wife was likely an
> otherwise unidentified illegitimate daughter of Henry II of
> England. Such a connection would yield the following
> relationships:
This is interesting, and perhaps I missed another element of this thread
where other possible options were eliminated. But could you (or
someone) post a 3 or 4-generation AT of this 'king's cousin' Richard de
Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326)? Is the paternal great-grandmother the
only hole with a potential tie-in?
Nat Taylor
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat,
As per your request.
Cheers,
John
_________________________
1 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 29 Jul 1326 in Athassel.
Occupation: Earl of Ulster 1271-1326.
3rd Earl of Ulster
abt 1280 Richard married Margaret de Guines.
2 Walter de Burgh. Walter died on 28 Jul 1271.
Occupation: Earl of Ulster.
Lord of Connaught; Earl of Ulster, 1266-1271
'Item Ob. dominus W. de Burgo comes Ultonie et dominus Conactie
prothdolor [sic] v. Kal. Augusti in die sanctorum Nazarii
et Celsi.' Annales de Monte Fernandi, 1271
ca 1257 Walter married Aveline FitzJohn.
3 Aveline FitzJohn. Aveline died ca 20 May 1274.
sister and coheiress of Richard, Lord FitzJohn
4 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 17 Feb 1242.
Occupation: Lord of Connaught.
Lord of Connaught 1206-1227; Justiciar of Ireland 1228-1232
bef 21 Apr 1225 Richard married Giles (Egidia) de Lacy.
5 Giles (Egidia) de Lacy. Giles (Egidia) died aft 1242.
her maritagium included 5 cantreds in Eoganacht: a fine of 21
April 1225 made by one William de Worcester obtained a mandate
to the Justice of Ireland to give seisin of certain lands,
'...salvo Ric'o de Burgo quinto cant'do scil cantredo de Joganach
Cassel que Walt's de Lascy dedit ei i maritagiu cu Egidia filia
sua; salvo dno Regi homag pdci Rici de Burg de tenemto qd de
dno R. tenet inf' pdcos cantredos.' [Excerpta I:128]
6 Sir John FitzGeoffrey. Sir John died on 23 Nov 1258.
Occupation: lord of Berkhamsted, Justiciar of Ireland.
of Shere, co. Surrey and Fambridge, co. Essex
created Justiciar of Ireland, 4 Nov 1245 (held office until 1256);
received from Henry III the manor of Whaddon, 14 Nov 1242, and
the cantred of the Isles in Thomond before 3 Sept 1254
2nd husband of Isabel le Bigod
aft 1229 Sir John married Isabel le Bigod.
7 Isabel le Bigod.
she m. lstly Gilbert de Lacy
2ndly Sir John fitz Geoffrey
8 William de Burgh. William died in 1205.
Occupation: Lord of Connaught.
William married NN.
9 NN.
wife identified in some sources as daughter of Domnall Mor O'Brien
(shown not to be mother of William's heir, Richard de Burgh)
10 Walter de Lacy. Walter died bef 24 Feb 1240.
Occupation: Lord of Meath.
of Meath, Ireland; Ludlow, Weobley and Ewyas, co. Hereford
Constable of Hereford Castle
' Walter Lacy', named as one of the 'faithful men...ordainers and
executors' of the will of King John, dated Newark, 18 October
1216 [Warren p. 255]
re: his wife, she founded the priory of Aconbury in memory of her
mother
bef Nov 1200 Walter married Margaret de Braose.
11 Margaret de Braose. Margaret died aft 1254.
she founded the priory of Aconbury in memory of her mother
12 Geoffrey FitzPiers. Geoffrey died on 14 Oct 1213.
Occupation: Earl of Essex 1199-1213.
sheriff of Northampton, Essex and Hertford
Justiciar of England 1198-1213
he m. lstly Beatrix de Say,
2ndly (as 2nd husband) Aveline de Clare
bef 29 May 1205 Geoffrey married Aveline de Clare.
13 Aveline de Clare. Aveline died bef 4 Jun 1225.
she m. lstly William de Munchensy,
2ndly Geoffrey fitz Piers (2nd wife)
14 Hugh le Bigod. Hugh died bef 18 Feb 1224.
Occupation: Earl of Norfolk.
of Framlingham, Norfolk
3rd Earl of Norfolk; Surety of the Magna Carta
1st husband of Maud le Marshal
In 1207 Hugh married Maud le Marshal.
15 Maud le Marshal. Maud died on 27 Mar 1248. Buried in
Tintern Abbey.
eldest daughter and coheir of brother Walter, Earl of Pembroke
she m. lstly Hugh le Bigod,
2ndly William de Warenne (2nd wife)
her inheritance included the lordship of Chepstow, co. Monmouth
20 Hugh de Lacy. Hugh died on 25 Jul 1186 in Ireland.
Occupation: Lord of Meath.
of Meath, Ireland
companion of Henry II is his visitation of Ireland (landed at
Waterford, 18 Oct 1171)
received grant of the lordship of Meath
Justiciar of Ireland, 1172 - April 1173
summoned to Normandy, during the rebellion of the Young King,
April 1173
Justiciar of Ireland again, May 1177 - 1184
Hugh married Rose de Monmouth.
21 Rose de Monmouth.
or, 'Rohese'
first wife
22 William de Braose. William died in Sep 1211 in Corbeil, France.
Buried in Abbe St-Victoire, Paris.
Occupation: lord of Brecon.
of Bramber, Sussex
lord of Braose [Briouze], Normandy, of Abergavenny and Brecon;
lord of Limerick, in Ireland
received Kington, co. Hereford before 1195 (Sanders, p. 57)
acquired Tetbury, co. Glocs. :
' ...Tetbury was granted to William de Breuse
[Glos RO D566/T1/1; cf Rot. Cur. Reg. (Rec. Com.) ii 177],
possibly on his marriage* to Maud de St Valery, and was
confiscated in 1208 after his quarrel with King John.'
[*I can only think VCH should have said "in consequence of his
marriage", not "on his marriage", as that marriage must have
taken place long before c.1191] ' - C. Phillips
supporter of King John - captured Arthur of Brittany at Mirebeau,
1 Aug 1202
received grant of Gower in recognition of his services
suspicions raised against him; ca. 1208 he fled the King's will in
fear (his wife and son captured, imprisoned and allegedly starved
to death)
William married Maud de St. Valery.
23 Maud de St. Valery. Maud died in 1210.
probably had Tetbury, co. Glocs. as her maritagium (subsequently
granted to her husband William de Braose, most likely ' in
consequence of her marriage' - C. Phillips )
captured by royal forces in pursuit of her husband; held to have
been starved to death (together with son William) by order of
King John, 1210
24 Piers de Lutegareshale.
of Cherhill, co. Wilts.
1st husband
forester, possibly of the royal forest at Ludgershall Castle,
Wiltshire
Piers married Maud.
25 Maud.
previously held to have been daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville
(disputed, as investment of Geoffrey fitz Piers to Earldom of
Essex held to have been in right of his wife) - proven to have
been a misinterpretation, by Todd A. Farmerie
she m. lstly Piers de Lutegarshale,
2ndly Hugh de Bocland
26 Roger de Clare. Roger died in 1173.
Occupation: Earl of Hertford.
succeeded his brother as Earl of Hertford 1152-1173
1st husband of Maud de St. Hilary
Roger married Maud de Saint Hilary.
27 Maud de Saint Hilary. Maud died on 24 Dec 1193. Buried in
Priory of Great Carbrooke, Norfolk.
'Matildis de Sancto Jacobo'
heiress of Norfolk lands of her father.
'Her fee is entered separately in her husband's [Roger de Clare]
Carta in 1166.' DD, p. 690
she m. 1stly Roger de Clare,
2ndly William D'Aubigny
28 Roger le Bigod. Roger died bef 2 Aug 1221.
Occupation: Earl of Norfolk.
of Framlingham, Norfolk
2nd Earl of Norfolk
Steward of England
'comite Rogero Bigot' , witness to grant of Roger de Lascy,
constable of Chester, to his burgesses of Pontefract of free
burgage and the liberties and free laws which the king's
burgesses of Grimsby enjoy, 6 June 1194 [Boynton, citing
EYC I:209-211 - original in the possession of the mayor and
corporation of the borough of Pontefract].
Surety of the Magna Carta
Made gift of land at East Bergholt, Suffolk to Dodnash Priory.
Re: this gift, and the identification of the parentage of
'Countess Ida', mother of William Longespee, Douglas Richardson
wrote:
' It is odd that Roger Bigod would have land in this place and
also that he would donate it to a Tony-related religious house,
unless his wife Ida were a member of this family.'
See also contributions by Paul Reed and others at SGM.
Roger married Ida (de Tosny ?).
29 Ida (de Tosny ?).
not married to Henry II (by whom she was the mother of William
Longespee, Earl of Salisbury)
subsequently married to Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk
her identification by her son as 'the Countess Ida' was the primary
lead upon which further research has been based: she was, by
marriage, Ida, Countess of Norfolk.
Ray Phair provided the following information on 3 July 2002:
' As it turns out there is evidence that Ida countess of Norfolk
was William's mother. Among the prisoners captured at the
battle of Bouvines, Flanders, in 1214 was Ralph Bigod, described
as a brother of William (Longespee) earl of Salisbury [3].
[3] "Les registres de Philippe Augustus", ed. J. W. Baldwin, 1992,
miscellanea no. 13 " '
Her parentage as theorised (identification as the daughter of Ralph
de Tosny) is reasonable but unproven (see SGM posts by Paul C.
Reed, FASG, Douglas Richardson and others).
Note: gift of land by husband Roger le Bigod of East Bergholt lands
to Dodnash priory [East Bergholt being associated with the de
Tosny family]
See SGM discussions, 2000-2002 concerning this identification
30 William Marshal. Born abt 1146. William died in Caversham on 14
May 1219, he was 73. Buried in Temple Church, London.
Occupation: Earl of Pembroke and Marshal of England.
4th son (2nd son by 2nd wife)
knight of the household of the Young King (prince Henry) incl.
during his rebellion, following his death became a knight of the
household of King Henry II 1183. Attended Henry II at his death,
escorted body to interment at Fontevraud 1189.
Marshal of England upon death of brother, March 1193/94 ; Regent
of England 11 Nov 1216-1219 (supporter of King John)
supporter of King John at Runnymede, 1215.
'William Marshal earl of Pembroke', named as one of the 'faithful
men...ordainers and executors' of the will of King John, dated
Newark, 18 October 1216 [Warren p. 255]
3rd Earl of Pembroke; also lord of Longueville and Orbec (de jure
uxoris)
aft 6 Jul 1189 when William was 43, he married Isabel de Clare.
31 Isabel de Clare. Isabel died in 1220. Buried in Tintern Abbey.
Occupation: Countess of Pembroke suo jure.
heiress of her brother Gilbert, Earl of Pembroke
40 Gilbert de Lacy. Gilbert died aft 1163.
assumed name of de Lacy
received grant of de Lacy lands from Henry II
42 Baderon de Monmouth. Baderon died bef 1176.
of Monmouth castle, co. Monmouth
grantor to the Knights Hospitallers for the soul of his wife,
before 1166 (DD p. 591, citing Pipe Roll, 12 Hen II, 83-hf)
Baderon married Rohese de Clare.
43 Rohese de Clare. Rohese died bef 1166.
44 William de Braose. William died ca 1192.
Occupation: lord of Bramber and Brecon.
of Bramber, Sussex
William married Bertha of Hereford.
45 Bertha of Hereford.
2nd daughter and coheiress (carried lordship of Brecknock as her
portion)
46 Bernard de St. Valery. Bernard died ca 1191.
of Tetbury, co. Glocs., Studley, co. Bucks., and Beckley and Horton,
co. Oxon.
in 1166-7 he paid a fine for livery of Beckley and Horton [his father
then already being deceased]
made gifts of land to Oseney Abbey, 1182-1189
called Reginald in other sources (possible confusion with his son)
' In 1186 he was one of the signatories to the delimitation of the
county of Amiens, acknowledging that he held Saint-Valery as a
fief of Philip Augustus of France.' DD, p. 698, citing RRAN III,
no. 329
cf. VCH Gloucestershire 11:264 as to tenure of Tetbury
Bernard married Maud.
47 Maud. Maud died ca 1151.
probably lst wife (reference made to her as 'late wife' in gifts of
Bernard de St. Valery to Oseney Abbey, before 1190)
52 Richard de Clare. Richard died on 15 Apr 1136 in near Abergavenny
(slain).
Occupation: lord of Clare and Tonbridge.
Lord of Clare
founder of the priory of Tonbridge
held erroneously to have been Earl of Hertford (see CP Vol III
-Clare, p. 243)
the assize of 1130 (Pipe Roll 30 Hen I) records:
" Essex.... And the same [Richard Fitz-Gilbert] owes 200m. of silver
for the help that the king gave him in connection with his debt to
the Jews."
" London and Middlesex....
Rabbi Joseph (Rubi Gotsce), the Jew, and Jacob and Manasseh
render account of 6m. of gold that the king will help them against
Richard Fitz-Gilbert in the matter of his debts...."
Richard married Adeliza of Chester.
53 Adeliza of Chester.
brought lands in Northampton and Lincoln as her marriage portion
captured at Abergavenny by the Welsh when her husband was slain,
15 Apr 1136; rescued by Miles of Gloucester
she m. lstly Richard de Clare,
2ndly Robert de Condet/Cundy
54 James de Saint Hilary. James died bef 1154.
of Dalling, Great and Little Carbrooke, Norfolk & c.
[CP Vol V -Essex, pp. 124-125]
seigneur of St. Hilaire du Harcouet
answered for his father's lands in co. Oxon, 1129/30 (DD p. 690,
citing Pipe Rolls)
gave 10 librates of land to the abbey of Savigny, 1138
(CP Vol VI -Hertford, p. 500n) (Sanders, p. 44)
James married Aveline.
55 Aveline.
56 Hugh le Bigod. Hugh died bef 9 Mar 1176.
Occupation: Earl of Norfolk.
of Framlingham, Norfolk
served as royal Steward under Henry I
created 1st Earl of Norfolk in Dec 1140
Inherited Yorkshire estates of Berengar de Toeni (Tosni) through
mother, including tenancy-in-chief in Lincolnshire and the
Norman lands at Conches and Tosny
Maternity of son uncertain according to some authors - charter
cited in CP Vol IX (Norfolk), p. 585n calls his mother 'the
Countess Juliana'
m. 1stly Juliana de Vere,
2ndly Gundred, presumed daughter of Roger, Earl of Warwick)
Hugh married Juliane de Vere.
57 Juliane de Vere. Juliane died bef 1183.
lst wife
evidently the marriage was annulled (Juliana's second husband,
Walkelin Maminot, d. in 1182)
60 John fitz Gilbert. John died bef 1173.
of Winterbourne Monkton, co. Gloucs.
hereditary Master Marshal
as John fitz Gilbert, attested charters under King Henry I
'John the Marshal owes Ł22 13s 4d for his father's office and land.'
Barlow (cites Pipe Roll, 31 Henr. I)
accounted for the daughter of Walter Pipard and his lands also in
1129/30 (DD p. 1029); repudiated first wife Adelicia/Adeline, ca.
1141
rebelled against King Stephen, 1152 (son William given as a hostage)
also called John fitz Gilbert
he m. lstly Aline Pipard,
2ndly Sibyl of Salisbury
John married Sibyl de Salisbury.
61 Sibyl de Salisbury.
2nd wife of John le Marischal
62 Richard 'Strongbow' de Clare. Richard 'Strongbow' died in Dublin
on 20 Apr 1176, he was 46. Born ca 1130. Buried in Holy
Trinity (Christ Church Cathedral), Dublin.
Occupation: Earl of Pembroke.
of Cardigan and Striguil, and Chepstow, co. Monmouth
leader of English invasion of Ireland; Earl of Pembroke
Attested treaty between King Stephen and Duke Henry of Normandy
(later Henry II), 1153.
Landed at Waterford 23 Aug 1170 and captured same, then captured
Dublin and restored Dermot to throne.
Assumed kingship of Leinster until intervention of Henry II of
England, 1172 (received grant of lordship of Leinster in fee
from King Henry II)
' 1169. Ricardus Strangulensis comes [...]-mundum juvenem quendam
e familia sua cum 10. militibus circa calendas Maii in
Hyberniam praemisit, ipse autem cum 1200. militibus in
vigilia Sancti Bartholomei subsequebatur. Hic Ricardus
filius fuit Gilberti Comitis Strongulensis, id est,
Chepstowe, olim Strogull, et Isabelle matertere Malcolmi
regis, et Gulielmi regis Scotiae, et Spei David comitis,
postridie autem festi urbem caepit, ibique Dermitii filiam
in uxorem duxit. Murcardus [Murcardi?] filius Laginiae
principis [princeps?] ab Henrico auxilium petiit, cui fidei
sacramentum et vinculum servitutis praestitit Dermitius.'
Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1169 [pp. 13-14]
'1171. Ricardus comes praemisit in Hyberniam Remundum circa calendas
Maias, cum equitibus 10. Sagittariis 70. is ipse in vigilia
Bartholomei subsequebatur ut predictum est; Weisfordiam vi
capit; Evam Dermicii filiam in uxorem ducit; recta Dublinum
contendit, urbemque expugnat. ' Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1171
held lands as lord of Longueville and Orbec
ca 26 Aug 1171 when Richard 'Strongbow' was 41, he married Aoife
[Eva] ingen Diarmaid, in Waterford.
63 Aoife [Eva] ingen Diarmaid. Aoife [Eva] died ca 1189.
'Evam Dermicii filiam', Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1171
heiress of Leinster
Styled Countess of Ireland, 1185; Countess of Striguil, 1186
80 NN.
father, name unknown
NN married Emma de Lacy.
81 Emma de Lacy.
identified as daughter of Walter de Lacy by T. Powys-Lybbe
(citing DNB)
84 William fitz Baderon. William died bef 1138.
of Monmouth castle
tenant in chief in Monmouthshire at Domesday Book, 1086:
the castle of Monmouth was held by ' William son of Wihenoc's brother
Baderon by 1086.' DD, p. 592
86 Gilbert de Clare. Gilbert died ca 1117.
Occupation: lord of Clare, Tonbridge and Cardigan.
Lord of Clare
lord of Ceredigion (Cardigan) by grant from King Henry I, ca 1110
'...domino Gileberto Ricardi filio, avunculi eius..' (mortuary roll
of Abbot Vitalis of St. Swithin's, Winchester - as uncle of Meen
de Fougeres)
Gilbert married Adeliza de Clermont.
87 Adeliza de Clermont.
also Alice
88 Philip de Braose. Philip died bef 1156.
Occupation: lord of Bramber.
of Bramber, Sussex
conquered Radnor and Builth in Wales, ca. 1093
arrested for treason and deprived of his lands by Henry I, 1110;
pardoned and restored to his lands, 1112
Philip married Aenor de Totnes.
89 Aenor de Totnes.
name given in some sources as Aenor
coheiress of her father: from the holdings of her descendants, it
is evident these included Barnstaple and Totnes, Devon
(or a moiety thereof)
90 Miles fitz Walter. Miles died on 24 Dec 1143. Buried in chapter
house of Llanthony priory.
Occupation: Earl of Hereford.
Constable of England
hereditary Sheriff of Gloucester; received in 1121 with Sibyl de
Neufmarche 'all the lands of her father and mother after their
death or before if they so willed it', including the lordship of
Brecknock
Joined the Empress Matilda in 1139, created by her Earl of Hereford
on 25 July 1141
enfeoffed by Brian fitz Count with the castle and honour of
Abergavenny by the service of 3 knights' fees, 1141/2 (Sanders,
p. 7)
bef 29 May 1121 Miles married Sibyl de Neufmarche.
91 Sibyl de Neufmarche. Sibyl died aft 24 Dec 1143. Buried in
chapter house of Llanthony priory.
brought lordship of Brecknock to her husband
92 Reginald de St. Valery. Reginald died bef 1168.
of Tetbury, co. Glocs.
seneschal of Normandy, 1146- 1153
he received a grant of Beckley, co. Oxon. and other lands of the
d'Ivry family (escheated to the crown) from King Henry I, before
1135(Sanders, pp.9-10)
lands forfeit under King Stephen due to support of Matilda; restored
by King Henry II, as the honour of St. Valery
benefactor of nunnery at Fontevraud with son Bernard before 1154
made a gift of the church of Northleigh ['Legis'], co. Oxon. to the
monks of St. Mary of Eynsham
'...pro salute Henrici regis & A. regine & liberorum suorum, & pro
mea & Bernardi filii mei salute & pro animabus patris & matris
mee & antecessorum & benefactorum meorum...', ca. 1154-61
[Salter I: 131]
a crusader; fought at the siege of Caesarea, 1158
given custody of the castle of Harenc by King Baldwin (DD p. 698,
citing Robert de Torigni)
he d. shortly after 1164, acc. to K. Keats-Rohan
[his son Bernard fined for having livery of his father's lands
in Horton and Beckley, 1167/8]
* said by Hollister to have supported William II ('Rufus'), King of
England against his brother Robert, 1091 - either very young at the
time, or confusion for a near relation [using his name instead of
his father's, perhaps] (p. 69)
104 Gilbert de Clare. Gilbert died ca 1117.
Occupation: lord of Clare, Tonbridge and Cardigan.
Lord of Clare
lord of Ceredigion (Cardigan) by grant from King Henry I, ca 1110
'...domino Gileberto Ricardi filio, avunculi eius..' (mortuary roll
of Abbot Vitalis of St. Swithin's, Winchester - as uncle of Meen
de Fougeres)
Gilbert married Adeliza de Clermont. [see #86 above]
105 Adeliza de Clermont. [see #87 above]
also Alice
106 Ranulf III of the Bessin. Ranulf III died ca 1129. Buried in
St. Werburg's, Chester.
Occupation: viscount of the Bessin and the Avranchin;
Earl of Chester.
also styled Ranulf le Meschin
commander of the first wing (army of Henry I) at
battle of Tinchebrai, 28 Sept 1106
held 'extensive lands in Cumberland' , which he
surrendered to Henry I upon his receiving the
earldom of Chester, 1121
Earl of Chester and vicomte of the Avranchin 1121-1129 (successor to
cousin Richard of Avranches, d. 1120 in the White Ship)
Ranulf III married Lucia of Alkborough.
107 Lucia of Alkborough. Born ca 1070. Lucia died in 1141, she was
71.
heiress of Alkborough, co. Lincs. & c.
also known as 'Lucy of Bolingbroke'
she m. lstly Ivo Taillebois,
2ndly Roger fitz Gerold,
3rdly Ranulf of the Bessin
widow of Roger Fitz Gerold, and mother of William de Roumare, earl
of Lincoln
identified by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan as the daughter and heir of Turold
the Sheriff [confirming suggestion by R. E. G. Kirk in 'The
Countess Lucy' :The Genealogist, n.s. 5 (1888)], noting several
pieces of evidence including:
'A revealing phrase from the Register of Spalding Priory
reads: 'mortuo quia dicto Thoraldo relicta sibi herede Lucia
predicta' [at his death Turold left an heir, the aforesaid Lucy].
the Pipe Roll of 30 Hen I records:
" Lincolnshire...
Lucy, countess of Chester, renders account of Ł266. 13s. 4d.
for the land of her father. In the treasury Ł166. 13s. 6d.
And she owes Ł100; also 500m. of silver that she need not
take a husband inside five years. And the same countess
renders account of 45m. of silver for the same agreement,
to be given to whom the king pleases. To the queen 20m.
of silver. And she owes 25m. of silver. And the same
lady owes 100m. of silver that she may hold justice in
her court among her own men.... "
108 Harscoit de Saint Hilary. Harscoit died aft 1121.
of Field Dalling, Norfolk and Tansor, co. Northants.
seigneur de St. James et St.-Hilaire-du-Harscouet, Brittany
[his lands absorbed by Normandy before 1090 - DD, p. 689]
'Harscoit vicecomes', witness to a charter from William, count of
Mortain
to Sainte-Trinite de Fougeres before 1106 (DD p. 689, citing Chartes
de Fougeres, no. x)
112 Roger le Bigod. Roger died in Sep 1107.
of Earsham, Suffolk (held of Bishop Stigand), ca 1071;
sheriff of Norfolk and possibly Suffolk, at time of Domesday Book,
1086
Roger married Adeliza de Tosny.
113 Adeliza de Tosny. Adeliza died aft 1135.
sister and co-heiress of Berengar de Toeni (Tosni), succeeding to
Belvoir after c. 1115/1118
2nd wife
114 Aubrey de Vere. Born bef 1090. Aubrey died in London (slain in
riot) on 15 May 1141, he was 51. Buried in Colne Priory, Essex.
Occupation: chamberlain of England 1133-1141.
of Great Addington and Drayton, Northants.
held manor of Twywell, Northants. of the Abbot of Thorney
sheriff of London and Middlesex 1121
given grant of hereditary title of Master Chamberlain of England by
Henry I, July 1133
joint sheriff with Richard Basset of Surrey, Cambridge, Hunts.,
Norfolk, Suffolk, Bucks. and Bed. from 1129
Aubrey married Adeliza de Clare.
115 Adeliza de Clare. Adeliza died ca 1163 in St. Osyth's Priory
(a nun).
died a nun, St. Osyth's Priory
120 Gilbert Giffard. Gilbert died bef 1130.
of Winterbourne Monkton, co. Gloucs. at Domesday Book, 1086
"..Gilbert the king's marshal."
"Norman, Domesday tenant of Glastonbury Abbey,
identified in the Tax Return for Selkley Hundred. He
occurs in Winton Domesday (p. 44, no. 63)..."
122 Walter fitz Edward. Walter died in 1147 in Bradenstoke, Wilts.
(d. a monk).
of Chitterne, co. Wilts.
sheriff of Wiltshire; founder of priory of Bradenstoke, Wilts.
Retired as a canon of Bradenstoke, d. and buried there 1147
Walter married Sibyl de Chaworth.
123 Sibyl de Chaworth.
124 Gilbert de Clare. Gilbert died ca 6 Jan 1147. Buried in Tintern
Abbey.
Occupation: Earl of Pembroke.
lord of Cardigan and Striguil; inherited Bienfaite and Orbec
(Normandy); received lordship of Pembroke (forfeited by Arnulf
de Montgomery) ca 1136
inherited Chepstow, co. Monmouth from uncle Walter fitz Richard, 1138
created Earl of Pembroke 1138 by King Stephen
Generally supporter of Stephen, except during rebellion over
confiscated estates of nephew Gilbert of Hertford 1147
Gilbert married Isabel de Beaumont.
125 Isabel de Beaumont. Isabel died aft 1171.
one-time mistress of Henry I of England (CP Vol VII -Leicester)
'...Isabelle matertere Malcolmi regis, et Gulielmi regis Scotiae,
et Spei David comitis,..' [Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1169]
126 Diarmaid mac Murchad. Diarmaid died ca 1 May 1171.
Occupation: King of Leinster.
also known as 'Dermot MacMurrough'
last Irish King of Leinster (and clan chief of Ua Cennselaigh).
Restored to his throne by son-in-law Richard 'Strongbow, 1170
Nathaniel Taylor
> Thursday, 14 August, 2003
>
>
> Dear Nat,
>
> As per your request.
<chomp>
Thanks.
I suppose, to cross every I and dot every T with any two figures calling
each other cousin, should one not also investigate the ahnentafels of
their then-spouses, to see if there be a possible 'cousin by marriage'
tie? Or would this definitely *not* be grounds for such terms of
kinship to be applied in the 13th-14th century?
Nat Taylor
The Williams Family
Here's the requested AT. Enjoy!
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
1. Richard de Burgh, 2nd Earl of Ulster. b. ca. 1259. m. bef. 27 Feb 1280/81 to Margaret (de Burgh?). d. 29 Jul 1326 in the
monastery at Athassel & was bu. shortly bef. 29 Aug. (CP XII/2: 173-177).
2. Walter de Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster. b. ca. 1230. m. ca. 1257. d. 28 Jul 1271 at Galway Castle & bu. in the monastery at
Athassel. (CP XII/2: 171-173).
3. Aveline fitz John. d. ca. 20 May 1274 & bu. in Dunmow Priory. (CP XII/2: 173).
4. Richard de Burgh, Lord of Connaught. m. bef. 21 Apr 1225. d. shortly bef. 17 Feb 1242/3 in Gascony. (CP XII/2: 171-172).
5. Jill (Egidia) de Lacy. (CP XII/2: 171-172).
6. Sir John fitz Geoffrey, Justiciar of Ireland. m. bef. 12 Apr 1234. d. 23 Nov 1258. (CP V: 433-434).
7. Isabel of Norfolk. (CP V: 433-434).
8. William de Burgh, Lord of Connaught. d. 1205-06. (CP XII/2: 171-172).
9.
10. Walter de Lacy, Lord of Meath.
11.
12. Geoffrey fitz Piers, 1st Earl of Essex. m. bef. 29 May 1205. d. 14 Oct 1213 & bu. in Shouldham Priory. (CP V: 122-125).
13. Aveline de Clare. d. bet. 22 Nov 1220 & 4 Jun 1225. (CP V: 124-125).
14. Hugh le Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk. m. prob. bef. Lent 1207. d. 11-18 Feb 1224/5. (CP IX: 589-590).
15. Maud Marshal. d. 27 Mar 1248. (CP IX: 590).
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat (et al.),
As I understand it, this would not be necessary (in the present instance)
for two reasons:
1. If the relationship had been to (or via) a spouse,
that would evidently have been indicated. To quote
Douglas R. (from 13 August in this thread),
" It should be noted that on other occasions, King
Edward I carefully distinguished when he was
addressing people related only to his wife. For
examples of his wife's relatives being so
stipulated, see Calendar of Close Rolls, 1279–1288
(1902): 79, 159 (Jacob [James] de Ispannia styled
"queen's kinsman"; James de Ispannia styled
"nephew of the queen the king's consort"), 342
(Alfonsus de Ispannia styled "kinsman of Queen
Eleanor, the King's consort"); Calendar of
Chancery Warrants (1927): 27 (Sir Reynald, Count
of Guelders, Duke of Limburg styled "kinsman of
the king's consort, [Eleanor]"), 100 (Sir Ingeram
de Fynles [Fiennes] styled "cousin to Eleanor
formerly the king's consort")."
2. In addition to the relationship indicated between
Richard de Burgh (d. 1326) and Kings Edward I and II,
we also have Edward III addressing King Robert II
of Scots (d. 1390), great-nephew of Richard de
Burgh, as "our cousin" in 1373 (see Douglas
Richardson, first post in this thread).
It appears quite certain that, unless we are dealing with multiple
unknown relationships to the Angevin kings of England, there is a common (and not
overly remote) ancestor between Richard de Burgh and Robert II of Scots on one
side, and the English kings on the other.
All the best,
John
Doug McDonald
>
>
> It appears quite certain that, unless we are dealing with multiple
> unknown relationships to the Angevin kings of England, there is a common (and not
> overly remote) ancestor between Richard de Burgh and Robert II of Scots on one
> side, and the English kings on the other.
If this turns out to be provable, it is a quite large thing.
Robert II is a common "best" royal gateway ancestor,
and for quite a while he was thought to be mine. Note that if
you count the basis on death date, Robert II wins over Edward III.
This finding improves the "English" royal ancestry obtained
through Robert II.
(Note that I now have found other paths for my gateway ancestor,
Rev. Robert Rose of Virginia, which lead directly to Robert III
and Edward III).
Doug McDonald
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I think it's rather clear now that the family of Richard de Burgh,
> Earl of Ulster (died 1326), was closely related to the English royal
> family. But how? You have suggested that Earl Richard de Burgh's
> paternal great-grandmother was an illegitimate daughter of King Henry
> II. Actually I think a better candidate for the father of this woman
> is King Richard I. Richard I is known to have had a bastard son,
> Geoffrey. King John also accused Richard of being the father of
> another son, Henry, who John appears to have later acknowledged as his
> own bastard. Obviously if Richard I had a bastard son, he could also
> have had a bastard daughter.
So because he could have had a bastard daughter, how, exactly,
does that make him a "better candidate"? Your 'fifth degree'
rule would cover a link to any royal relative back to Geoffrey of
Anjou. He had known bastards, Henry had known bastards, John had
known bastards, Hamelin had known children, etc. Is your choice
of Richard anything more than whim?
taf
Reedpcgen
As we noted earlier, until 1215, it was required that all ancestry was
theoretically known SEVEN generations. Richard de Burgh was born about 1259,
BUT the knowledge of extended family that was required two generations before
certainly wouldn't have suddenly died out, especially knowledge of a connection
to the royal family, which likely would have a higher probability of being
preserved generation by generation.
To suddenly latch onto Richard I and claim a child beyond what there is
documentation for is folly (IMHO).
If theorizing a common link was through a royal person, such as Henry I or
Richard I, why not go further back, as descent from a king would be remembered
longer than five generations (I could name all my great-great-grandparents when
I was a boy).
Paul
Nathaniel Taylor
[Nat Taylor earlier wrote:]
> > I suppose, to cross every I and dot every T with any two figures calling
> > each other cousin, should one not also investigate the ahnentafels of
> > their then-spouses, to see if there be a possible 'cousin by marriage'
> > tie? Or would this definitely *not* be grounds for such terms of
> > kinship to be applied in the 13th-14th century?
> As I understand it, this would not be necessary (in the present instance)
> for two reasons:
>
> "... King
> Edward I carefully distinguished when he was
> addressing people related only to his wife. "
>
> 2. In addition to the relationship indicated between
> Richard de Burgh (d. 1326) and Kings Edward I and II,
> we also have Edward III addressing King Robert II
> of Scots (d. 1390), great-nephew of Richard de
> Burgh, as "our cousin" in 1373 (see Douglas
> Richardson, first post in this thread).
>
> It appears quite certain that, unless we are dealing with multiple
> unknown relationships to the Angevin kings of England, there is a common (and
> not overly remote) ancestor between Richard de Burgh and Robert II of Scots on
> one side, and the English kings on the other.
I continue to advocate a broad and systematic approach to this promising
kinship question. One point to emphasize is that, even if consanguinity
to Edward's wife can be ruled out, still the apparent hole in the Burgh
of Ulster ancestry could be matched to ANY chronologically acceptable
person in the ancestry of Edward I: not just a royal bastard in his
paternal line. So, are there ANY OTHER people ancestral or collateral
to Edward I who might plausibly have been able to furnish a daughter who
married a Burgh? Does she HAVE to have been a Plantagenet bastard: how
about a legitimate or illegitimate daughter, or first or second cousin,
of ANY ONE of Edward's great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents?
To be sure, many of these candidates were not in Britain so perhaps we
can rule them out; but can we be sure that this Burgh bride could not
have been of continental origin?
Nat Taylor
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat,
There are some not-too-far continental possibilities; and
no, I don't think it impossible that a continental connection
(illegitimate or otherwise) would hold the key.
The following are some 'close' common relationships that
Eleanor of Castile and Edward I of England held, aside from
their common descent from Henry II of England (see prior post
in this same thread, 13 August 2003):
1. Louis VI of France
______________I________________________
I I
Louis VII = Constance Pierre/Peter
of France I of Castile seigneur de Courtenay
_________I I__________
I I
Alix = Guillaume Aymer Taillefer = Alice
___I C of Ponthieu C of Angouleme I
I I
Marie = Simon de John = Isabella
_____I Dammartin of England I of Angouleme
I I
I I
Joan = Ferdinand III Henry III
I of Castile/Leon of England
I_____________ ____I
I I
Eleanor = Edward I
5th degree (4th cousins)
2. 1) Berengaria = Alfonso VII = 2) Richilda
of Barcelona I of Leon I of Poland
______________I and Castile I___________
I I
Ferdinand II of Leon Alfonso II = Sancha
I of Aragon I_____
I I
Alfonso IX of Leon (as above) Alfons II
I of Provence
I ______________I
I I
Ferdinand III of Castile Ramon-Berenguer IV
and Leon of Provence
I I
I Eleanor = Henry III
I_________________ ______I of England
I I
Eleanor = Edward I
5th & 4th degrees (3rd cousins 1x removed)
3. Amadeus III of Savoy
______________________I_____________________
I I
Humbert III Alfonso Enriquez = Mahaut
of Savoy K of Portugal I of Savoy
I I
I I
Thomas I Ferdinand II = Urraca
of Savoy of Leon I
I (as above) I_________
I I
Beatrice = Ramon Berenguer IV Alfonso IX
I of Provence of Leon
I _________I
I I
Eleanor = Henry III Ferdinand III
I of England of Castile and Leon
I_______ ___I
I I
Edward I = Eleanor
5th degree (4th cousins)
Certainly, if there was a relationship (parent or spouse of
William de Burgh) connected to one of these three families,
that would provide an 'alternative' to the Plantagenet
connection being bandied about. My earlier suggestion (of a
likely descent from a child, illegitimate, of Henry II) is
based on probability, given (A) proximity [William de Burgh
being Anglo-Norman], (B) chronology [contemporary with John
of England] and (C) opportunity, or 'motive [his relationship
with John, in his service in Ireland ca. 1185-1205]. The
possibility exists of a French, Savoyard or Castilian/Leonese
connection, but probability seems to favor the Angevin as
more likely.
Cheers,
John
Malinda Jones
Manor with the Lyte arms impaled with the Washington arms
http://www.stratford.co.uk/sulgrave/
http://www.inspirationalimports.com/WashingtonAncestryGenealogy.htm
~malinda
Tim Powys-Lybbe
The...@aol.com wrote:
> Thursday, 14 August, 2003
>
>
> Dear Nat,
>
> As per your request.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
Thanks for this; it has provided some extensions to my files.
>
> _________________________
>
>
> 1 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 29 Jul 1326 in Athassel.
> Occupation: Earl of Ulster 1271-1326.
>
> 3rd Earl of Ulster
2nd earl?
>
> abt 1280 Richard married Margaret de Guines.
>
<big snip>
I can't find any reference to connect Maud to No 46. Can you assist?
<snip>
> 46 Bernard de St. Valery. Bernard died ca 1191.
>
> of Tetbury, co. Glocs., Studley, co. Bucks., and Beckley and Horton,
> co. Oxon.
>
> in 1166-7 he paid a fine for livery of Beckley and Horton [his father
> then already being deceased]
>
> made gifts of land to Oseney Abbey, 1182-1189
> called Reginald in other sources (possible confusion with his son)
>
> ' In 1186 he was one of the signatories to the delimitation of the
> county of Amiens, acknowledging that he held Saint-Valery as a
> fief of Philip Augustus of France.' DD, p. 698, citing RRAN III,
> no. 329
>
> cf. VCH Gloucestershire 11:264 as to tenure of Tetbury
>
> Bernard married Maud.
>
<snip>
> 63 Aoife [Eva] ingen Diarmaid. Aoife [Eva] died ca 1189.
>
> 'Evam Dermicii filiam', Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1171
>
> heiress of Leinster
Eva was not an heiress in the classical sense, though she indeed
inherited great possessions. She had brothers with issue (CP X, 356,
note (a) ).
> Styled Countess of Ireland, 1185; Countess of Striguil, 1186
> 80 NN.
>
> father, name unknown
>
> NN married Emma de Lacy.
>
> 81 Emma de Lacy.
>
> identified as daughter of Walter de Lacy by T. Powys-Lybbe
> (citing DNB)
I have found a few other books since then, notably Keats-Rohan's
"Domesday Descendants", Sanders' "English Baronies" and Wightman's "The
Lacy Family" and then Chris Phillips has done some real research on the
matter.
The upshot is that it is no longer certain that Emma was the Lacy
parent of Gilbert: it might have been her brother Roger (K-R, DP, 404)
it might have been anyone.
<final snip>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
John Ravilious
Dear Tim,
Glad to hear the prior post was of use.
Comments/responses are interspersed below.
Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message news:<79a4862...@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
> In message <1c9.dd8ccd...@aol.com>
> The...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Thursday, 14 August, 2003
> >
> >
> > Dear Nat,
> >
> > As per your request.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John
>
> Thanks for this; it has provided some extensions to my files.
>
> >
> > _________________________
> >
> >
> > 1 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 29 Jul 1326 in Athassel.
> > Occupation: Earl of Ulster 1271-1326.
> >
> > 3rd Earl of Ulster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> 2nd earl?
No, 3rd Earl by my count. I show Richard de Burgh (d. bef 6 Nov
1248), brother of Walter and uncle of this Richard (d. 1326), as 1st
Earl of Ulster, succeeded by Walter (d. 28 Jul 1271) as 2nd Earl.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> >
> > abt 1280 Richard married Margaret de Guines.
> >
>
> <big snip>
>
> > 22 William de Braose. William died in Sep 1211 in Corbeil, France.
> > Buried in Abbe St-Victoire, Paris.
> > Occupation: lord of Brecon.
> >
> > of Bramber, Sussex
> > lord of Braose [Briouze], Normandy, of Abergavenny and Brecon;
> > lord of Limerick, in Ireland
> >
> > received Kington, co. Hereford before 1195 (Sanders, p. 57)
> >
> > acquired Tetbury, co. Glocs. :
> > ' ...Tetbury was granted to William de Breuse
> > [Glos RO D566/T1/1; cf Rot. Cur. Reg. (Rec. Com.) ii 177],
> > possibly on his marriage* to Maud de St Valery, and was
> > confiscated in 1208 after his quarrel with King John.'
> > [*I can only think VCH should have said "in consequence of his
> > marriage", not "on his marriage", as that marriage must have
> > taken place long before c.1191] ' - C. Phillips
> >
> > supporter of King John - captured Arthur of Brittany at Mirebeau,
> > 1 Aug 1202
> >
> > received grant of Gower in recognition of his services
> >
> > suspicions raised against him; ca. 1208 he fled the King's will in
> > fear (his wife and son captured, imprisoned and allegedly starved
> > to death)
> >
> > William married Maud de St. Valery.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > 23 Maud de St. Valery. Maud died in 1210.
> >
> > probably had Tetbury, co. Glocs. as her maritagium (subsequently
> > granted to her husband William de Braose, most likely ' in
> > consequence of her marriage' - C. Phillips )
> >
> > captured by royal forces in pursuit of her husband; held to have
> > been starved to death (together with son William) by order of
> > King John, 1210
>
> I can't find any reference to connect Maud to No 46. Can you assist?
> <snip>
>
> >>>>>>>>>> 46 Bernard de St. Valery. Bernard died ca 1191.
Concerning the identification of Maud de St. Valery as daughter
of Bernard, this is based somewhat on onomastic evidence (cf. St.
Valery names - Reginald, Maud, Lauretta/Loretta introduced into de
Braose line with Maud's children) and largely on the identification of
Tetbury, co. Gloucs. - a holding of Bernard de St. Valery - as the
maritagium of Maud.
Cf. the SGM thread <Re: Maud de Beauchamp, wife of Robert
Marmion> (Chris Phillips, Cris Nash, John Ravilious & c.), Sept 2002.
This thread includes the citation provided by Chris Phillips of Cal.
Inq. Misc., vol. 1, p. 534 (C. Inq. Misc. File 64. (29.) ),
identifying relationship of William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick (d.
1298), to Bertha de Braose/Breuse; also, VCH Gloucestershire 11:264,
as to relationship of William de Braose d. 1211 to the family of Maud
de St. Valery and the tenure of Tetbury.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > of Tetbury, co. Glocs., Studley, co. Bucks., and Beckley and Horton,
> > co. Oxon.
> >
> > in 1166-7 he paid a fine for livery of Beckley and Horton [his father
> > then already being deceased]
> >
> > made gifts of land to Oseney Abbey, 1182-1189
> > called Reginald in other sources (possible confusion with his son)
> >
> > ' In 1186 he was one of the signatories to the delimitation of the
> > county of Amiens, acknowledging that he held Saint-Valery as a
> > fief of Philip Augustus of France.' DD, p. 698, citing RRAN III,
> > no. 329
> >
> > cf. VCH Gloucestershire 11:264 as to tenure of Tetbury
> >
> > Bernard married Maud.
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> > 63 Aoife [Eva] ingen Diarmaid. Aoife [Eva] died ca 1189.
> >
> > 'Evam Dermicii filiam', Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1171
> >
> > heiress of Leinster
>
> Eva was not an heiress in the classical sense, though she indeed
> inherited great possessions. She had brothers with issue (CP X, 356,
> note (a) ).
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
True enough; although, one might argue Diarmaid's (Dermot's)
agreements with Richard de Clare (aka Strongbow) constituted his
disinheritance of his sons in favor of Aoife.
(An argument best won on the field......)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> > Styled Countess of Ireland, 1185; Countess of Striguil, 1186
>
>
> > 80 NN.
> >
> > father, name unknown
> >
> > NN married Emma de Lacy.
> >
> > 81 Emma de Lacy.
> >
> > identified as daughter of Walter de Lacy by T. Powys-Lybbe
> > (citing DNB)
>
> I have found a few other books since then, notably Keats-Rohan's
> "Domesday Descendants", Sanders' "English Baronies" and Wightman's "The
> Lacy Family" and then Chris Phillips has done some real research on the
> matter.
>
> The upshot is that it is no longer certain that Emma was the Lacy
> parent of Gilbert: it might have been her brother Roger (K-R, DP, 404)
> it might have been anyone.
>
> <final snip>
Thanks for that; I'll have to delve into the SGM archives a bit
later (hopefully the leads in Sanders will also help in this).
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson
In the quarterings of Elizabeth de Burgh, wife of Robert I, King of
Scotland, I note that you list the following arms in the first
position:
Argent two lions passant Sable
While arms containing two lions passant are rather common, I note that
King John bore two lions passant as his arms when he was lord of
Ireland [Reference: Coat of Arms 7 (1962): 18–24]. I also find that
King John used two lions passant on his seal [Reference: Archćologia
Ćliana 3rd Ser. 17 (1920): 265, 282–286].
While Elizabeth de Burgh was certainly not King John's heiress, it
strikes me that the arms listed for Elizabeth de Burgh are
representative of various marriages in her ancestry, as opposed to the
normal quarterings which reflect marriages only to women who were
heiresses.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
James Dempster <use...@talksinsentences.nospam.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<rrvkjv88bfjif18e6...@4ax.com>...
Alexander Malinowski
> 2. 1) Berengaria = Alfonso VII = 2) Richilda
> of Barcelona I of Leon I of Poland
Who is that Richilda of Poland?
Leo van de Pas
Richza/Rikinsa daughter of Wladislaw II of Poland and Agnes of Oesterreich.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Manoel Cesar Furtado
the granddaughter of Boleslaus III of Poland and the daughter of Ladislaus
I, prince of Cracow. Agnes was daughter of Leopold, Margrave of Austria.
Best regards,
Manoel Cesar Furtado
The Bibliographer
More usually spelled Ryksa or Rikissa. She was the daughter of Wl/adysl/aw
II Wygnaniec, King of Poland, Prince of Krako'w and S'lask
(1105-1159); and the granddaughter of Bolesl/aw III Krzywousty
(1086-1138).
Several dates have been offered for her birth, and she is missing from a
number of the more-abridged tables of the House of Piast, but her
historical position is without doubt. For a brief, but good, discussion of
her relationships and life, see Kasimierz Jasin'ski, <Rodowo'd Piasto'w
S'la,skich>, vol. I (Wroclaw: Wroclawskie Towarzystwo Naukowe, 1973),
pages 56-57.
For centuries, she was ignored or relegated to an occasional
footnote. Interest in her revived at the end of the nineteenth century,
however, with the beginning of the large emigration of Poles to the United
States, because she is George Washington's nearest Polish ancestor -- a
fact not lost by Polish antiquarians and historians.
For a good discussion of that relationship see Mariusz Grabek, "Among
Many, the Polish Lineage of George Washington," in <ZGODA: The Official
Publication of the Polish National Alliance of North America> vol. 120,
no. 2 (15 January 2001), page 16.
Grabek, a remarkable young researcher and writer, is a former student of
mine.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"