Parentage of Joan Skelton, wife of Robert de Roos, Knt., of Gedney, Lincolnshire

[John Watson]

Dear all,

Back in 2010, in this group there was a rather heated exchange regarding the ancestry of Eleanor Roos, daughter and co-heiress of Robert Roos of Gedney, Lincolnshire. The argument revolved around whether her mother was Joan Tilliol, daughter of Alice Ireby by her first husband, Geoffrey Tilliol, or Joan Skelton, daughter of Alice Ireby and her second husband, Sir John Skelton.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2010-12/1291190225

In the blue corner, supporting the Skelton solution was Douglas Richardson, and in the red corner, supporting Tilliol was John Higgins, citing History of Parliament.

One of the documents that Douglas mentioned in support of his argument was John Denton's History of Cumberland, edited by Angus J. L. Winchester [Surtees Soc., vol. 213], which he described as a bit of a mish mash of information. This document was previously published in 1887 by the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society and is available at archive.org.

https://archive.org/details/tractseries02cumb

Among the mish mash perhaps Douglas overlooked one contemporary document in Denton's history which to me supports the view that Eleanor Roos' mother was Joan Skelton. This document is an agreement in medieval French between Sir John Skelton and Alice his wife, previously the wife of Geoffrey Tilliol, Katherine the daughter and heir of Geoffrey Tilliol, and Sir Robert Muncaster, concerning a mortgage given by Geoffrey Tilliol to Robert Muncaster for properties near Torpenhow, Cumberland.

[25 January 1405] "Sachent touz gentz que Sr John de Skelton chivalere Alice sa feme jadis feme a Geffray Tilliol et Katine que feust la fille & heir le dit Geoffray ont receuz de Robert Mulcastre par lez mayns Mons. William de Clifford en le nom et al oeps la dite Katine deuz centz et cynquant marcz par queuz toutz les terres et tenz le dit Robert in Whytrigg Belises & Thornebanke en la ville de Torpenhoue feurent myses en mortgage al dit Geffray & ses heirs & assignez par le dit Robert John Mason & John de Arkilby Chapellaynes par le dit some come appt par les endentes en dit morgage Des queuz deuz cent & cynquant marcz lez dit John de Skelton Alice & Katine comma en le nome la dite Katine eux convenont estre paiez et lez ditz Robert de Mulcastre & William de Clifford Chivaliers les heirs & exec eut acquitent per y costes. En tesmoignage de quel chose a parties dy ceste fait endente les parties avant ditz entchangeablement ount mys les sealx ensemblement ovesque les sealx de Monsr William de Legh, Monsr William de Osmunderlaue, William Denton, John Pardishow, William Beauchamp, Robert del Highmore, et dautres adonques & illoeques presentz et la dit paiement eust duement fait tesmoignantz Don a Whytrigg sursdit en le fest de sente Paule lappoistel lan du reigne le Roy Hen quat puis le conquest Dengleterre sisme.

Et outre ceo lez ditz John de Skelton Chivalr Alice sa feme & Katrine file & heir le dit Geffray relessent & quit clamant par y cestes a lez ditz Robert de Mulcastre & Sr William de Clifford Chivalers a eux & les heirs & assignez a toutz temps tout le droit & clame qils ou ascun de eux ont ou ad en lez ditz terres & tenz de Whitrig Belises & Thorneback ove lez appertenancez.

R. S. Ferguson, ed., An Accompt of the most considerable Estates and Families in the county of Cumberland, from the conquest unto the beginning of the reign of K. James [the First] by John Denton of Cardew, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society, Tract Series, no. 2 (1887), 176.

Now my medieval French may not be the best but I can definitely read that Katherine was the daughter and heir of Geoffrey Tilliol. She is not described as a co-heir. If Geoffrey Tilliol had another daughter, then the last part of the document, which is a quit-claim should also have included her.

This leads me to the conclusion that Douglas is correct in his reasoning that Joan, the mother of Eleanor Roos was a daughter of Alice Ireby and her second husband, Sir John Skelton and was not another daughter of Geoffrey Tilliol.

I will now stand well back as the protagonists come out swinging.

Best regards,
John

[Douglas Richardson]

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 3:32:23 AM UTC-7, John Watson wrote:
< Dear all,

< Back in 2010, in this group there was a rather heated exchange regarding the <ancestry of Eleanor Roos, daughter and co-heiress of Robert Roos of Gedney, <Lincolnshire. The argument revolved around whether her mother was Joan <Tilliol, daughter of Alice Ireby by her first husband, Geoffrey Tilliol, or <Joan Skelton, daughter of Alice Ireby and her second husband, Sir John Skelton.

< http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2010-12/1291190225

< One of the documents that Douglas mentioned in support of his argument was <John Denton's History of Cumberland, edited by Angus J. L. Winchester [Surtees <Soc., vol. 213], which he described as a bit of a mish mash of information. <This document was previously published in 1887 by the Cumberland and <Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society and is available at <archive.org.

< https://archive.org/details/tractseries02cumb

<Among the mish mash perhaps Douglas overlooked one contemporary document in <Denton's history which to me supports the view that Eleanor Roos' mother was <Joan Skelton. This document is an agreement in medieval French between Sir <John Skelton and Alice his wife, previously the wife of Geoffrey Tilliol, <Katherine the daughter and heir of Geoffrey Tilliol, and Sir Robert Muncaster, <concerning a mortgage given by Geoffrey Tilliol to Robert Muncaster for <properties near Torpenhow, Cumberland.

< [25 January 1405] "Sachent touz gentz que Sr John de Skelton chivalere Alice <sa feme jadis feme a Geffray Tilliol et Katine que feust la fille & heir le <dit Geoffray ont receuz de Robert Mulcastre par lez mayns Mons. William de <Clifford en le nom et al oeps la dite Katine deuz centz et cynquant marcz par <queuz toutz les terres et tenz le dit Robert in Whytrigg Belises & Thornebanke <en la ville de Torpenhoue feurent myses en mortgage al dit Geffray & ses heirs <& assignez par le dit Robert John Mason & John de Arkilby Chapellaynes par le <dit some come appt par les endentes en dit morgage Des queuz deuz cent & <cynquant marcz lez dit John de Skelton Alice & Katine comma en le nome la dite <Katine eux convenont estre paiez et lez ditz Robert de Mulcastre & William de <Clifford Chivaliers les heirs & exec eut acquitent per y costes. En <tesmoignage de quel chose a parties dy ceste fait endente les parties avant <ditz entchangeablement ount mys les sealx ensemblement ovesque les sealx de <Monsr William de Legh, Monsr William de Osmunderlaue, William Denton, John <Pardishow, William Beauchamp, Robert del Highmore, et dautres adonques & <illoeques presentz et la dit paiement eust duement fait tesmoignantz Don a <Whytrigg sursdit en le fest de sente Paule lappoistel lan du reigne le Roy Hen <quat puis le conquest Dengleterre sisme.

< Et outre ceo lez ditz John de Skelton Chivalr Alice sa feme & Katrine file & <heir le dit Geffray relessent & quit clamant par y cestes a lez ditz Robert de <Mulcastre & Sr William de Clifford Chivalers a eux & les heirs & assignez a <toutz temps tout le droit & clame qils ou ascun de eux ont ou ad en lez ditz <terres & tenz de Whitrig Belises & Thorneback ove lez appertenancez.

< R. S. Ferguson, ed., An Accompt of the most considerable Estates and Families < in the county of Cumberland, from the conquest unto the beginning of the
< reign of K. James [the First] by John Denton of Cardew, Cumberland and
< Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society, Tract Series, no. 2
< (1887), 176.

< Now my medieval French may not be the best but I can definitely read that <Katherine was the daughter and heir of Geoffrey Tilliol. She is not described <as a co-heir. If Geoffrey Tilliol had another daughter, then the last part of <the document, which is a quit-claim should also have included her.

The above document is elsewhere mentioned in Roskell's biography of Sir Geoffrey Tilliol in House of Commons 1386-1421, vol. 4 (1992). Roskell's comments read as follows:

"By February 1401, Sir Geoffrey's widow, Alice [Ireby], had married the influential Cumbrian landowner, John Skelton*, who arranged through an intermediary for the entire sum of 250 marks to be paid to Katherine Tilliol, one of Sir Geoffrey's two young daughters and coheirs, while himself contracting another mortgage with Muncaster." END OF QUOTE

Generally speaking, in this time period, if Sir Geoffrey Tilliol left more than one daughter, then his known surviving daughter, Katherine, should have been styled "one of the daughters and heirs" of Geoffrey Tilliol in the above document, rather than "the daughter and heir." As you say, this specific language implies that Katherine was the sole surviving daughter and heiress of Geoffrey Tilliol. Roskell, if he was careful, should have caught the intent of this document. Alas he did not.

< This leads me to the conclusion that Douglas is correct in his reasoning that <Joan, the mother of Eleanor Roos was a daughter of Alice Ireby and her second <husband, Sir John Skelton and was not another daughter of Geoffrey Tilliol.

I don't think it has ever been in doubt (except by Roskell) that Joan, wife of Sir Robert de Roos, was the half-sister of Katherine Tilliol above. Joan and Katherine were half-sisters, they sharing the same mother, Alice Ireby, but different fathers.

Joan Roos is specifically identified as the daughter of Alice Ireby by her 2nd husband, Sir John Skelton, in a Common Pleas lawsuit dated Hilary term, 19 Henry VI [1440-41] abstracted in Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905): 372, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromple00wrotrich#page/372/mode/2up

The pleadings in this lawsuit relate that John de Skelton and Alice his wife levied a fine in 8 Henry IV [1406-7], by which Alice's two manors of High Ireby and Embleton, Cumberland had been settled on the said John and Alice his wife, and the heirs of their bodies. It is further stated that they left one daughter, Joan, who was the mother of Eleanor Roos. By their actions, John Skelton and his wife, Alice, had excluded Alice's older daughter by another husband, namely Katherine Tilliol, from Alice's inheritance.

Given that the fine stipulates that Alice's lands were settled on her issue by John Skelton, and given that Eleanor Roos (daughter of Joan) was then in ownership, the direct implication is that Eleanor Roos was a legitimate descendant of Alice's marriage to John Skelton. I believe the original lawsuit sets out the actual descent, so the descent is both implied and specified in the lawsuit.

John - If you need help in locating the original Common Pleas lawsuit, by all means, please let me know. In the meantime, thank you for sharing your findings.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah