Complete Peerage Addition: New evidence for wife of William de Warenne, E...
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, et al.,
The chronology I show for the period concerning the likely
Earl of Arundel to father Maud, wife of William de Warenne
appears as follows:
1. William D'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel, was born
1138 or later (the son of William D'Aubigny and
Adeliza of Louvain, dowager of Henry I of England).
He was styled Earl of Arundel from 1176/7 acc. to
CP.
2. William married Maud de Saint Hilary, 1173 or soon
thereafter. Maud (daughter of James de Saint
Hilary, of Dalling, Norfolk & c. by his wife
Aveline) was the widow of Roger de Clare, Earl of
Hertford (d. 1173) and the mother of the young 4th
Earl of Hertford, Richard de Clare, and his siblings.
3. William D'Aubigny and Maud de Saint Hilary are
(previously) known to have had a son William, who
succeeded his father as Earl of Arundel, and was
a supporter of King John in 1215 together with
William de Warenne (previously husband of Maud whom
you have identified). They also had a daughter
Agnes, identified by Todd in <Re: Albini/Aubigny Line>,
SGM, 21 May 2002.
Given the foregoing, it would appear that a daughter Maud
could likely have been born to William D'Aubigny and Maud de
Saint Hilary as early as 1174, but possibly well into the
1180's. William de Warenne was born in 1165 or later.
Maud D'Aubigny, eldest daughter of William D'Aubigny (d. ca.
1221) and Mabel of Chester, and eldest granddaughter of William
D'Aubigny and Maud de Saint Hilary, was coheiress (in her issue)
to her brother Hugh, Earl of Arundel (d. 1243). Her son Robert
de Tateshal succeeded to Buckenham, Norfolk as part of the
Arundel inheritance (CP Vol. I - Arundel, p. 239n).
It is then most likely that Maud D'Aubigny, wife of this
William de Warenne, was the daughter of the above William
D'Aubigny and Maud de Saint Hilary.
Best regards - and great find.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Patricia Junkin
there a pedigree of the family to be found?
Thank you.
Pat
----------
>From: The...@aol.com
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Addition: New evidence for wife of William de
Warenne, E...
>Date: Wed, Jan 8, 2003, 6:37 AM
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your analysis in your post below. Much appreciated. I
concur with your identification. This new information will be found
in the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry.
I find it coincidental that William de Warenne would crop up at this
junction, as I find in reading Complete Peerage that on 30 Nov. 1206
he was directed to escort the King of Scotland to York [Reference:
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 500 (sub Surrey), citing Rot. Lit.
Pat, pg. 56]. Likewise, in 1220, he was appointed to meet the King of
Scotland at Berwick [Reference: Ibid., pg. 501].
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that William Longespee was "of the
escort to William the Lion, King of Scots, to meet John at York, Nov.
1206." [Reference: Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 379, citing Rot. Lit.
Pat., pg. 56].
If I read the two passages of Complete Peerage correctly, it appears
that William de Warenne and William Longespee were both in the party
chosen to escort William the Lion, King of Scotland, to York in 1206.
I believe that William de Warenne and William Longespee were both
kinsmen of King William the Lion. If anyone has access to the
information, I'd appreciate if they could chart the relationships
between these individuals. My presumption is that William the Lion's
mother, Countess Ida Bigod, was the daughter of Ralph de Tony, by
Margaret, daughter of Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester.
Again, thanks for your analysis, John. You do great work.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<ac.35b02b1...@aol.com>...
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > My presumption is that William the Lion's
> mother, Countess Ida Bigod, was the daughter of Ralph de Tony, by
> Margaret, daughter of Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester.
>
OK, let me get this straight. My recently installed source listings
says that SP says that William the Lion had an illegitimate
daughter Ada, by unknown woman, and Ada married Patrick,
4th Earl Dunbar. I can't check this the requisite volume of SP
has vanished between the time I had it checked out and now.
You are now saying that the mother of William the Lion was
the Countess Ida who married Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk?
So William the Kion was at least half-brother to Hugh Bigod,
3rd of Norfolk, who married Matilda Marshal, granddaughter
of Strongbow and Eve of Leinster?
Is this what you are saying? It is agreed to be correct?
That's not who I show as the mother of William the Lion.
And, of course, you all are still arguing about the ancestry
of the Countess Ida.
Doug McDonald
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas,
Glad we agree...;) I will look up the lineage for the individuals mentioned in your post when back home this p.m., unless someone else jumps in first.
By the bye, I presume it was a slip of the forefinger that caused your identification of Countess Ida as mother of William the Lion (intended was William Longespee, earl of Salisbury) - we know Ida got around, so to speak, but that would make for some hairy haggis....
All the best,
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> I believe that William de Warenne and William Longespee were both
> kinsmen of King William the Lion. If anyone has access to the
> information, I'd appreciate if they could chart the relationships
> between these individuals. My presumption is that William the Lion's
> mother, Countess Ida Bigod, was the daughter of Ralph de Tony, by
> Margaret, daughter of Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester.
On this hypothesis, the three Williams would share a descent from Isabel of
Vermandois, (1) the maternal grandmother of William the Lion, (2) the mother
of William de Warenne's maternal grandfather, and (3) (with the parentage of
Ida as suggested above) she would be the paternal grandmother of William
Longespee's maternal grandmother.
But William Longespee would also be a first cousin of William de Warenne, as
their fathers were half brothers.
Chris Phillips
The...@aol.com
Hello Doug,
Please see my earlier post on this thread - I'm sure Douglas will respond later, but his intent (to name William Longespee, not William the Lion) seems clear.
Sorry re: the missing SP volumes - it is correct, that Ada, natural daughter of William the Lion, married the Earl of Dunbar as you asked. My own ('original') source was also SP. This was the source of the claim by the later Patrick, Earl of Dunbar as a competitor for the Scots crown in 1292.
Good luck, and good hunting.
ADRIANC...@aol.com
Perhaps the James is the same as the following from DP:
Petrus de Sancto Hilario
Son of Harscoit de Saint-James or Saint-Hilaire and Matilda, whom he
succeeded in Normandy. By his wife Assailitte he had issue James, Harscoit,
Henry and Philip, although it Harscoit who succeede him by 1168.
regards,
Adrian
Pat wrote;
> May I enquire, again, of the family of St. Hilary. Who were they and is
> there a pedigree of the family to be found?
> Thank you.
> Pat
>
> ----------
> >From: The...@aol.com
> >To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> >Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Addition: New evidence for wife of William
> de
> Warenne, E...
> >Date: Wed, Jan 8, 2003, 6:37 AM
> >
>
> > Wednesday, 8 January, 2003
> >
> >
Cristopher Nash
>My presumption is that William the Lion's mother, Countess Ida Bigod
Lest dreadful things happen as people copy that, can I take it you
mean William Longespee's mother? For 10 minutes I thought I'd missed
more while abroad than I'd reckoned on.
Cris
--
Patricia Junkin
Thank you so very much for taking the time to reply to my questions about
families I do not see often discussed. I seem to be in the realms of the
unknown with sources varying to degrees on the de Veteriponte line.
Pat
----------
From: <ADRIANC...@aol.com>
To: paju...@erols.com, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Addition: New evidence for wife of William de
Warenne, E...
Date: Wed, Jan 8, 2003, 2:53 PM
Patricia Junkin
According to one source [Reid] William de Veteriponte, son of William Maude
de Moreville confirmed a grant of his father to the monks of Kelso, and
acquired under William the Lion [acceded 1165] the manors of Bolton, in East
Lothian, and Careden [Carriden, Karridin] in West Lothian. "In the 12th
Century Monks of Holyrood Abbey, Edinburgh, were granted a tithe by William
Di Vipont to dig coal from his Carriden estate." Reid suggest that it is
this William who married Emma de St. Hilario [Hilary] and by her had THREE
Williams! Their eldest, William is so described as "the eldest of the three
sons of Emma de St. Hilario" when he granted Holyrood the coal workings of
Carriden in HER lands in Blakness.
Other sources place this Emma as the mother of William who married Maude de
Moreville, so finding a time frame for Emma is most important.
With continued appreciation for your replys.
Pat
----------
>From: ADRIANC...@aol.com
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Douglas Richardson
I didn't mean to confuse anyone with my mistake yesterday. I meant to
say William Longepee's mother was Countess Ida, not William the
Lion's. I'm glad everyone was on their toes and knew who I meant.
In regards to the new identification of Maud d'Aubeney, wife of
William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, I see Charles T. Clay in his
useful series, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949): 25, note 11,
mentions claims that she was the daughter of an Earl of Arundel.
However, he caveats that there "seems to be no corroboration" for
Maud's parentage. Now that concrete evidence has been located to
prove she was a d'Aubeney, she can be unreservedly identified as such
on people's charts without qualification.
By the way, I prefer to use the spelling d'Aubeney for the Earls of
Arundel, which spelling I believe is more accurate than d'Aubigny.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03010...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear John ~
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Can you chart these relationships for
us so we can see the connections visually? Thanks!
DR
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<avhpsl$co1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Todd A. Farmerie
> Perhaps the James is the same as the following from DP:
DD, right?
> Petrus de Sancto Hilario
> Son of Harscoit de Saint-James or Saint-Hilaire and Matilda, whom he
> succeeded in Normandy. By his wife Assailitte he had issue James, Harscoit,
> Henry and Philip, although it Harscoit who succeede him by 1168.
According to most reconstructions, the James de St. Hillary in
question, father of Maud, is not this son of Peter, but rather
Peter's brother James, another son of Harscoit de Saint-James.
taf
Chris Phillips
> Thank you for your good post. Can you chart these relationships for
> us so we can see the connections visually? Thanks!
(1) Descent of William the Lion from Isabel of Vermandois:
Isabel = William de Warenne, earl of Surrey (d. 1138)
Ada = Henry of Scotland
William, King of Scotland, "the Lion"
(2) Descent of William de Warenne from Isabel:
Isabel = William de Warenne, earl of Surrey (d. 1138)
William de Warenne, earl of Surrey (d. 1147/8) = Ela, da of William Talvas,
count of Ponthieu
Isabel = Hamelin, earl of Surrey
William de Warenne, earl of Surrey (d. 1240)
(3) Hypothetical descent of William Longespee from Isabel:
Isabel = Robert, earl of Leicester (d. 1118)
Robert, earl of Leicester (d. 1168) = Amice, da of Ralph de Gael
Margaret = Ralph de Tosny
?
Ida
William Longespee
Chris Phillips
Gordon Banks
internet site that had background on how her father's (Diego Gomez de
Toledo) family fit into the history of that time. Unfortunately, I can't
find it now. Does anyone remember where it was? Thanks.
Douglas Richardson
Thanks for charting this out for us. Much appreciated.
Given the close set of kinships, I'm curious to know the names of
William the Lion's escorts on other occasions. Anyone have those
particulars?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<avkiug$6h2$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Nathaniel Taylor
This does not ring a bell, but there is an e-book on Castilian literary
& political history that puts her uncle Pero Lopez de Ayala into
context. It is Helen Nader, _The Mendoza Family in the Spanish
Renaissance, 1350-1550_ (Rutgers, 1979), of which chapter 3 gives some
context to the world of Pero Lopez. It is online at the "Library of
Iberian Resources Online", the AARHMS site's collection of Iberian
e-books at:
http://libro.uca.edu/mendoza/mendoza.htm
See especially chapter 3, "Pedro Lopez de Ayala and the Formation of
Mendoza Attitudes."
I have done some digging into 14th-century Toledo and Sancha's paternal
family and connections, but have not yet pulled together an article on
this (I expect to do this for print sometime in the next year, but it's
not at the top of the list right now). I'm not aware of any Internet
resources (except one website which has a few photos of a carved doorway
of Sancha's father's palace), but would be interested to learn of any if
you find one.
Nat Taylor
Patricia Junkin
Thank you.
Pat
----------
>From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Addition: New evidence for wife of William de
Warenne, E...
>Date: Thu, Jan 9, 2003, 10:56 AM