Princess of scotland to a nobody?

[RAY Montgomery]

To whom it may concern:
I am left scratching my head over this one.
I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
came from? Or his ancestry?
RAY

<br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)

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[The...@aol.com]

Friday, 20 July, 2001

Hello Ray,

The marriage of the mysterious Sir Thomas Ysaak (as I have him) to
Matilda Bruce is something of an oddity - but, given the problems of the
Scottish monarchy following the death of Robert I [aka the Bruce] in 1329, a
large number of possibilities exist [e.g. elopement, strategic removal from
marriageability to a powerful Earl, etc.].

One theory is that he was of Jewish [converted] origin in the male
line, but this is only based on his 'surname' [bad usage] of Ysaak or mac
Isaac.

From a known genealogical point of view, this is an important marriage
as the daughter of Matilda Bruce married Alan mac Eoin mac Dougal, lord of
Lorn; this descent runs with the Lorn lands to the Stewart Lords of Lorn, and
thereby to the Campbells of Argyll and of Glenorchy.

Wish this helped, re: your original question. Perhaps another on the
list has more on Sir Thomas or the Yitzhak [Isaac] from whom he is alleged to
descend ?

Good luck, and good hunting.

John

[RAY Montgomery]

John;
Your theory? (some one elses?) that he is jewish is also my thought as the
name isaac is a very rare one indeed in scotland. Infact this is the first
time i believe i have ever seen it!
Thanks
RAY

<br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!!

Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)

[Sutliff]

This may not extend anything on your query, but Tuckett's Devonshire
Pedigrees shows a family named Isaak, but does not extend it back to
the period which you are researching. Marshall and Whitmore give
several more volumes with Isaak pedigrees including an Irish family of
this surname. Whether there is a Jewish origin nor link to query, I do
not know.

Best regards,

Hap

[Brad Verity]

Ray and John,

How many children did Robert Bruce have with his second wife Elizabeth
of Ulster?

I know their son David (the next King of Scotland) was born about
1321. I wasn't aware there were other children of the marriage.

Elizabeth of Ulster and her stepdaughter Margery Bruce (from Robert's
first marriage) were captured by the Edward I in 1306, and kept in
England for several years. I don't believe there were any children of
Bruce and Elizabeth before she was captured.

She and Margery were finally released years later, several months
after the Battle of Bannockburn (June 1314), in a prisoner exchange
with Humphrey Bohun, Earl of Hereford (Edward II's brother-in-law).

Chronologically, any children of Bruce and Elizabeth of Ulster could
not be born before 1315.

I didn't realize Robert Bruce had other descendants than those of the
Stewarts through his daughter Margery. Very interesting!

Best regards,

Brad

[James Dempster]

On 20 Jul 2001 07:06:22 -0600, The...@aol.com wrote:

> The marriage of the mysterious Sir Thomas Ysaak (as I have him) to
>Matilda Bruce is something of an oddity - but, given the problems of the
>Scottish monarchy following the death of Robert I [aka the Bruce] in 1329, a
>large number of possibilities exist [e.g. elopement, strategic removal from
>marriageability to a powerful Earl, etc.].
>
> One theory is that he was of Jewish [converted] origin in the male
>line, but this is only based on his 'surname' [bad usage] of Ysaak or mac
>Isaac.
>

I don't know the source of the Ysaak/Isaac/macIsaac but could it be a
scribal error for MacKessock heard as Mac Essock and so on.

A long shot.

James

James Dempster (jdem...@easynet.co.uk)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

[Arthur Murata]

I had run across a woman in my family genealogy during the
medieval period who married into one of my Scottish
families whose name was "Jonel Isaac". I had wondered, as
well, if she might have been Jewish as this seemed an odd
surname for a gentile family in Scotland. Perhaps she was
from the same family under discussion? Is it possible that
non-converted Jews would have been welcome or even
tolerated in Scotland during this time? Bronwen Edwards

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[saraheva...@gmail.com]

This is an old thread, but as a descendant of Matilda & Thomas
I just wanted to pipe up so I get notified if anyone posts again
on it. Thank you.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Sara ~

Below is my current file account regarding Maud de Brus and her husband, Thomas Isaac, Esq. (also known as Thomas son of Isaac). Her given name was Maud. Matilda is the Latin form of her name.

Thomas Isaac appears to have owned no lands in his own right in Scotland, which suggests the possibility that he was from outside of Scotland. He certainly had no title. I suppose he might have been French, as we know that Maud was living in France from 1334 to 1341. Soon after Maud's return to Scotland, she married Thomas Isaac.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

MAUD DE BRUS, daughter by her father’s 2nd marriage. She was sent to France in 1334 along with her brother, King David II of Scotland, and her sister, Margaret, for their safety. They returned to Scotland in 1341. She married after June 1342 but before 1345 THOMAS ISAAC (or YSAK), Esq. They had two daughters, Janet and Katherine. In 1342 Thomas son of Isaac was paid £6 12s. 6d. “until otherwise provided for.” At an unknown date, his wife, Maud, was granted half of the thanage of Formartine and Kintore, Aberdeenshire by her brother, David II, King of Scots. Maud died at Aberdeen 20 July 1353, and was buried in the abbey church of Dunfermline, Fife by her parents. THOMAS ISAAC, Esq., was living in Nov. 1364.

References:

Rymer, Fœdera 6 (1727): 105–106 (Thomas Isaac styled “nobleman” in 1358). Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 5 (1812): 111–129 (sub Earl of Aylesbury). Hodgson, Hist. of Northumberland Pt. 2 Vol. 3 (1840): 6–8 (ped.). Paterson Hist. of Ayr 2 (1852): 271. Riddell, Comments on the Keir Performance with Drumpellier’s Exposition (1860): 189 (“Antecedent entry in the Exchequer Roll of David II., that in 1328 [sic] the Thanedom of Formartin was in the hands of ‘Comitis de Sotherland, et Matilde de Bruce, spouse Thome Isaac; ’ thus confirming Fordun’s account of the marriage.”). Skene, Johannis de Fordun Chronica Gentis Scotorum (Historians of Scotland 1) (1871): 369–370 (“Obiit Matildis de Bruyse, soror domini David regis Scociæ, anno MCCCLIII [1353], apud Abbirden, in festo beatæ Margaretæ virginis, et sepulta est in Dunfermlyn cum parentibus suis,quæ nupsit cuidam armigero, nominee Thomæ Ysaac…”). Stuart & Burnett, Rotuli Scaccarii Regum Scotorum 1 (1878): cxxviii, note 1, 510, 545–546, 551 (Maud de Brus, wife of Thomas Isaac, styled “sister of the king”); 2: 132. Skene, Liber Pluscardensis 1 (Historians of Scotland 7) (1877): 239–240; 2 (Historians of Scotland 10) (1880): 103–104, 184–185. Bain, Cal. Docs. Rel. Scotland 1108–1509 4 (1888): 4. Temple, Thanage of Fermartyn (1894): 20. Scots Peerage 1 (1904): 8 (sub Kings of Scotland). Dunbar, Scottish Kings (1906): 141–142. C.P. 8 (1932): 138–143 (sub Lorn). Fryde, Handbook of British Chron. (1986): 59. Grant & Stringer, Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship & Community (1993): 66, 74–75. TG 12 (1998): 251. Burke’s Landed Gentry of Great Britain (2001): lxiii–lxv (sub Scottish Royal Lineage). Special thanks go to Andrew B.W. MacEwen for his assistance with this account.

[wina...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 20 July 2001 17:31:22 UTC+10, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> To whom it may concern:
> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he

Hi Ray, Jonet Isaac who married John Mac Allan Viscount of Lorn. My 17th GGrandparents
John Mac Allan parents were John De Ergadia Mac Allan wife unknown.
His father was Sir John "of Argyl" De Ergadia. wife unknown
Father of Sir John was Alexander MacEwan De Ergadia wife unknown
His father was Sir Ewen De Ergadia wife unknown
His father was Duncan MacDugal De Ergadia
His father was Dougall Mac Somerled
This is as far as I have gone so far. At least 2 were knigted. They owned castles. This is a little bit of history for you.
Also called Duncan "of Lorn".1 Duncan mac Dugall de Ergadia was born circa 1170. He was the son of Dugall mac Somerled.1 Duncan mac Dugall de Ergadia and Dugall Scrag mac Dugall were acknowledged, at least nominally, the authority of the Norwegian king of the Hebrides; but actually they maintained an almost entire independence, appearing in the northern Sagas under the title of the Sudereyan Kings circa 1207.2 Duncan mac Dugall de Ergadia and Dugall Scrag mac Dugall regained the title to the Isles, lost by them on the death of their father to their uncle Reginald, in 1207.2 Duncan mac Dugall de Ergadia the priory of Archattan before 1248 at Lorn, Scotland.2 He died circa 1248. He witnessed the death of Alexander II "the Peaceful", King of Scotland on 6 July 1249 at Isle of Kerrara, Bay of Oban, Scotland; He was about to commence an attack on the Isles, to suppress an insurrection in the Hebrides, when he sickened of fever, and died.
Now Jonet did well in marrying Robert 11 Stewart son of Sir Robert Stewart Shambothy & Margaret Heiress of Holtkettle.
This line further down get complicated willing to send you any more information if you like.
email me if you would like more.
warm regards Lyn


>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>

[Katherine Kennedy]

The MacIsaac family are a sept of Clan Donald and were hereditary bailiffs for Clanranald. Circumstances might suggest the marriage of Thomas and Matilda's daughter had something to do with their allegiance to Clan Donald. The only MacIsaac I've seen tested was R-M269, so there is nothing to suggest a foreign origin. Of course one sample hardly makes for conclusive evidence. It's also believed some MacIsaacs adopted the name MacDonald.

http://www.moidart.org.uk/datasets/mcisaacs2.htm

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

On Monday, 25 September 2017 15:31:55 UTC+1, Katherine Kennedy wrote:
> The MacIsaac family are a sept of Clan Donald and were hereditary bailiffs for Clanranald. Circumstances might suggest the marriage of Thomas and Matilda's daughter had something to do with their allegiance to Clan Donald. The only MacIsaac I've seen tested was R-M269, so there is nothing to suggest a foreign origin. Of course one sample hardly makes for conclusive evidence. It's also believed some MacIsaacs adopted the name MacDonald.
>
> http://www.moidart.org.uk/datasets/mcisaacs2.htm

Dear Katherine,

I'm not sure it makes sense to associate Thomas Isaac with these Gaelic MacIsaacs/MacKessocks. The discussion of Thomas in the _Exchequer Rolls of Scotland_, i. cxxvii-cxxviii, tentatively suggests an English origin, based on the presence of the surname in the south of England, but it seems to me that another possibility, which they dismiss, is actually rather more likely.

Geographically, the only part of Scotland with which we can firmly associate Thomas Isaac is Aberdeenshire, where his wife was given half of the thanages of Formartine and Kintore [1]. As early as the nineteenth century it was observed - by Kennedy in his _Annals of Aberdeen_ - that a man named Isaac was active in Aberdeen in the generation before Thomas. This fellow is consistently described as "Isaac Clericus", was a burgess and bailie of the burgh, and also left a son "Alexander, dictus Ysaac" [2]. While the name Isaac is more common than one might think in fourteenth-century Scotland (a search of _POMS_ reveals no less than thirty-one Isaacs and related kinsfolk) and that makes any definite identification impossible, I'd be inclined to consider "Isaac Clericus" as a potentially important candidate for Thomas Isaac's father.

All the best,
Kelsey

[1] _Exchequer Rolls_, i. 545. cf. Craig A. Madden, "The Royal Demesne in Northern Scotland During the Later Middle Ages", _Northern Scotland_ 3 (1977): 1-24 at 8.
[2] See the discussion in _Exchequer Rolls_, i. cxxviii, n. 1.

[stevew...@gmail.com]

Folks,
This may be of interest to you. I have a vested interest because Transport Scotland are planning to build a road right through Isaacstown,Keithhall,Inverurie and probably demolish my house. Thomas Isaac is believed to have been the Laird of Isaacstown.

"it is obvious that Bruce and his family had a strong affection for Aberdeen, a much closer and altogether personal attachment than history records. As a family they had first come to Aberdeen on 1306, weary, friendless and destitute. and they had found shelter and loyal friends. Of necessity, the family were obliged to separate. After their betrayal at Tain, the King's sisters Mary and Christian Bruce were handed over to the terrible vengeance of Edward of England and for years these unfortunate ladies were confined in iron cages in one of Edward's strongholds. Towards the close of her life, the heroic Christian Bruce made her home in Aberdeen staying at the "palace" in the Green and taking a close personal interest in the burgh and its "Mither Kirk"

However the Bruce family has an even stronger link with the City for the King's second daughter Matilda married an Aberdeen burgess Thomas Isaacs. Usually described as a "certain squire", Thomas Isaacs would seem to have been Town Clerk of Aberdeen and was probably laird of the small property of Isaacstown near Keithhall, Inverurie. Apart from the fact that Matilda Bruce and her husband Thomas lived in "le chekery" (Exchequer Row) and had two daughters Catherine and Joanna who married John, Lord of Lorn, nothing is known of Matilda's life in Aberdeen where she died on 20 July 1353. Her remains were conveyed to Dunfermline to rest near the tomb of her illustrious father who died in 1329. The year after Matilda's death, her aunt the aging Dame Christian Bruce, as previously noted, donated a jewelled silver chalice to Kirk of St Nicholas. Probably this was given in memory of her niece and it would appear that shortly after making the gift, Christian herself died in Aberdeen. Without doubt Robert the Bruce is Aberdeen's most generous Royal benefactor and while it is true that, unlike the selfless patriot William Wallace, Bruce fought for Scotland only when Scotland's cause was his own, he was a liberally-minded man, a "bonny fechter" and a great king."

Fenton Wyness 1966 - City of the Great North Sea - Aberdeen.
Aberdeen LA&P Reid & Sons 86-87

[cait...@gmail.com]

Can I pm you a family tree?

[ada...@gmail.com]

Hi, I am trying to find out if i am decendant of Thomas Issac (bruce) but get lost around 1500’s any ideas of how i can find links to modern day ancestry?

[Ian Goddard]

On 13/12/18 04:36, ada...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I am trying to find out if i am decendant of Thomas Issac (bruce) but get lost around 1500’s any ideas of how i can find links to modern day ancestry?
>

Work backwards from yourself, not forwards from who you want to be
descended from.

[wjhonson]

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 8:36:11 PM UTC-8, ada...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I am trying to find out if i am decendant of Thomas Issac (bruce) but get lost around 1500’s any ideas of how i can find links to modern day ancestry?

Post what you have so far, starting from yourself and working back, and we will tell you where your mistake lies.

[Kirsten]

Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?

[Peter Stewart]

Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
from the poster.

For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.

Peter Stewart

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[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?

[Peter Stewart]

I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it - but of course
I have no special insight.

In general I think it is a basic fallacy to assume that medieval people
always followed convention in marriage arrangements, much less as we see
norms applying to their circumstances in distant retrospect. For
instance, no doubt "shot-gun" weddings occurred long before there were
shot-guns to enforce them.

As for Thomas Isaac, I doubt that his marriage to Matilda was considered
as disgraceful to the Bruce family and their connections in the 14th
century as it has been by pompous historians since. According to Michael
Penman (The MacDonald Lordship and the Bruce Dynasty, in _The Lordship
of the Isles_, 2014, p. 80) King David II "From his own exile ... may
have had a hand as early as 1352 in MacDougall's marriage to his niece,
Janet (daughter of Thomas Isaac and Matilda Bruce)".

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:17:01 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?

We have pretty much zero information, so one can attribute it to a range of reasons. It could be that Isaac was a knightly companion of her brother. Maybe he lent the king money (though we probably would know this) or was awarded for some other service (like 'el de los Garfios', a relatively obscure local landholder, being given the marriage of a niece by Alfonso X as reward for leading a heroic but ultimately disastrous 'last stand'). Maybe she was mentally or physically disabled. Or moral compromise - i.e. pregnant or otherwise 'tainted' in some manner. Even love, of all things. The near-complete lack of information allows you to conclude whatever you want.

taf

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for the reply, Peter. What did you mean by "I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it"?

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for the reply, Todd.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:

What do you think of Kelsey's 2017 theory that Thomas Isaac's father was Isaac the Clericus?

[Peter Stewart]

A play on shades of meaning - your question used "reason" to mean
motive, my reply used it to mean rationality. The marriage may have come
about from passion or cupidity, rather than from sense or calculation,
for all I know.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

I hadn't thought about it, so perhaps you are more concerned with what I
think than I am.

The clerk Isaac was one of the baillies of Aberdeen in March 1311 (new
style), see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/16819/. Thomas Isaac
was described as noble in September 1358, when he was brother-in-law to
the king. Making these men of widely different status into father and
son would require clearer evidence than just the name Isaac and a link
to Aberdeen in common.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Thanks for the reply, Peter. I suspected so.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]