C.P. Addition: Elizabeth le Strange, wife of Edmund de Saint John and Gerard de Lisle
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 50-51 (sub Lisle) includes a good history
of Sir Gerard de Lisle, Knt., 1st Lord Lisle (died 1360), of Kingston
Lisle (in Sparsholt), Berkshire. The recent identification of Sir
Gerard's first wife, Eleanor de Arundel, has been discussed here on
the newsgroup in earlier posts.
Regarding Sir Gerard's second marriage to Elizabeth, widow of Edmund
de Saint John, Lord Saint John, the following information is provided
by Complete Peerage:
"He married, 2ndly, before 3 July 1354, Elizabeth, widow of Edmund (de
St. John), Lord St. John, of Basing (died a minor, 1347), who held
several manors in dower. For a fine of 100 he was pardoned for
marrying her without license. He [Gerard] died 9 June 1360 ... His
widow married Sir Richard Pembrugge. Sje died 16 Sept. 1362." END OF
QUOTE.
Elsewhere Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 327 (sub Saint John) basically
tells us the same information regarding Elizabeth's fist married to
Edmund de Saint John:
"Edmund (de Saint John), Lord Saint John, ... aged 4 in Feb. 1336/7,
married Elizabeth _____, and died at Calais 18 Aug. 1347. His widow,
who had writ for dower 15 Oct., m. 2ndly (without the King's license)
before 3 July 1354, as his 2nd wife, Gerard (de Lisle), Lord Lisle of
Kingston Lisle, who died 9 June 1360. She married, 3rdly, Sir Richard
Pembrugge (who survived her), and died 14-16 Sept. 1362." END OF
QUOTE.
So who then was this much married woman named Elizabeth?
Actually there is an excellent clue to this woman's identity found in
a pedigree of the Lisle family published in the Visitations of
Surrey. This entry reads as follows:
“Gerrard de Insula 34 E. 3 Dns de Stowe 28 E. 3. = Elizebeth d. of
John Lord Strange of Blakmere widdow of Edm. St John 34 E. 3..”)
[Reference: Benolte et al. Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1623 (H.S.P.
43) (1899): 66–68 (Lisle ped.)].
If the above information is correct, then Elizabeth, 2nd wife of Sir
Gerard de Lisle, would be the daughter of John le Strange, Knt., 2nd
Lord Strange of Blackmere (died 1349), by Ankaret, daughter of William
le Boteler, 1st Lord Boteler of Wem.
Is there additional evidence which proves this identification?
Answer: Yes, there is. Elizabeth's own seal has survived, it being
attached to a document found in the Berkeley Castle Muniments. An
abstract of this document is available on the A2A Catalogue
(www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). It reads as follows:
BCM/B/1/1/4 [3 Sept. 1360]
Dower assignment, 1360
Contents:
Elizabeth widow of Sir Gerard and Warin de Islee, son and heir of the
said Gerard. Tuesday before [the nativity of the Virgin], 34 Edw. III.
Warin has assigned to Elizabeth in dower the manor of Brakken with
appurtenances (Yorks.), and half the manor of Kyngestone and Faulore
(Berks.) [with details of the division].
At: London.
[The document is copied into the Great Cartulary, BMC SB 10, f.
176.]. [Please quote GC3247* at Berkeley Castle Muniments when
requesting this file]. END OF QUOTE.
In private correspondence, Bridget Wells-Furby, an archivist with
Berkeley Castle, tells me that the seal of Elizabeth de Lisle attached
to this document is huge and very impressive. She reports that it
"has five shields of arms, the central one being the lion of the
Lisles, and then the leopards of Lestrange in the lower left, the fess
chequey and crosses of Boteler in the lower right, the two mullets on
a chief of St John in the upper left and the similar mullets on a
chief with crosses in the field of William de Clinton in the upper
right." END OF QUOTE.
So we have a shield with the coats of arms of Elizabeth's two first
husbands, Saint John and Lisle, and the arms of three other families,
Le Strange, Boteler, and allegedly Clinton.
Regarding the final set of arms, Ms. Wells-Furby identifies them as
Clinton which they might well be. Here is a description of a seal
used by Sir William de Clinton, Earl of Huntingdon, which individual
would have been an uncle to Elizabeth le Strange above:
King, Some Observations Rel. Four Deeds at Maxstoke Castle (1861)
(“William de Clinton …. the grantor in the second Deed …. On the seal
appended to this Deed are six crosses crosslet fitchy, and on a chief
two mullets of six points, Clinton: the shield is inclosed in a
foliated circle of nine-foils, and accompanied by six lions rampant of
Leybourne in the area of the seal, two over the shield, and two on
each side, the Earl having married Juliana, daughter and heir of Sir
Thomas Leybourne.”).
The above source may be viewed at the following weblink:
Even so, the arms of Clinton are somewhat similar to those of
Oddingseles which are mentioned in the following source:
Ellis, Catalogue of Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978): 48 (seal of William
de Odingsells dated temp. Hen. III — A shield of arms: a fesse, in
chief two mullets of six points. Legend: +S’ WILL’I de
DODINGESELE.).
In fact, the following source plainly states that the mullets (stars)
on the Clinton arms were in fact derived from the Oddingseles family:
Ellis, A Plea for the Antiquity of Heraldry (1853): 12 (“Thus the
mullets on the arms of Sir John de Clinton were taken from the coat of
Odingsell, his mother.”).
The above source may be viewed at the following weblink:
I mention the similarity in arms between the Oddingseles and Clinton
families as Elizabeth le Strange's mother, Ankaret le Boteler, would
have been a descendant of the Oddingseles family.
As for other evidence, it is obvious that Sir Gerard de Lisle was
quite familiar with the le Strange family of Blackmere, as his first
wife, Eleanor de Arundel, was the sister of Mary de Arundel, wife of
John le Strange, Knt., 4th Lord Strange of Blackmere (he died in
1361). So Sir Gerard de Lisle was well aware of the le Strange
family. John le Strange, 4th Lord Strange of Blackmere, would have
been the brother of Elizabeth le Strange, 2nd wife of Sir Gerard de
Lisle.
One final item: Complete Peerage states that Sir Gerard de Lisle
married his 2nd wife, Elizabeth, "before 3 July 1354." As discussed
in earlier posts here on the newsgroup, there is evidence which proves
this couple were married before 1 July 1351 (date of settlement) and
possibly as early as 29 July 1349 (date of his presentation to
Abbotstone church).
In my next post, I'll discuss the known descendants of Sir Gerard de
Lisle and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
.
Douglas Richardson
In my post just now, I stated that Elizabeth le Strange's uncle was
Sir William de Clinton, Earl of Huntingdon. To be more specific, Earl
William was her great-uncle of the half-blood. Elizabeth le Strange's
mother, Ankaret le Boteler, was the daughter of Earl William's half-
sister, Ela de Herdeburgh.
I'm unable to find an example of the Herdeburgh arms. As such, it may
be that the arms assigned by Bridget Wells-Furby to the Clinton family
found on Elizabeth de Lisle's seal might also have represented the
arms of Earl William's half-sister, Ela de Herdeburgh. As I indicated
in my earlier post, the mullets (stars) on a chief on the Clinton arms
are thought to have come from the arms of Earl William de Clinton and
Ela de Herdeburgh's mother, Ida de Oddingseles. If the Herdeburgh
arms were similar to those of Clinton, they might also have been
differenced by later descendants of Ida de Oddingseles.
Does anyone know the Herdeburgh arms?
Douglas Richardson
Research indicates that Sir Gerard de Lisle, Knt., 1st Lord Lisle
(died 1360), had one child by his 1st marriage to Eleanor de Arundel,
namely Warin de Lisle, Knt., 2nd Lord Lisle.
By his second marriage to Elizabeth le Strange, I find that Sir Gerard
de Lisle had two sons, Richard and Henry de Lisle, both of whom died
young, and one daughter, Elizabeth de Lisle, wife of Edmund Stonor,
Knt.
I've copied below an account of Elizabeth de Lisle and her husband,
Sir Edmund de Stonor. For interest's sake, the following is a list of
the17th Century New World immigrants that descend from the Lisle-
Stonor marriage:
Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston.
There are probably other immigrants who descend from Elizabeth (de
Lisle) de Stonor. One immigrant that has been suggested as a Stonor
descendant is Audrey (Barlow) Almy, of Rhode Island. However, there
is a problem in one generation in the Forster part of her descent
which has not yet been solved.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
ELIZABETH DE LISLE, married EDMUND DE STONOR, Knt., of Stonor (in
Pyrton), Oxfordshire, Bierton, Buckinghamshire, Doughton and Harnhull,
Gloucestershire, Asshe and Penton Mewsey, Hampshire, etc., Sheriff of
Oxfordshire and Berkshire, 1377–8, Knight of the Shire for
Oxfordshire, 1380, son and heir of John de Stonor, Knt. He was born
at Ermington, Devon 28 Sept. 1344. They had three sons, Edmund, John,
and Ralph, Knt., and one daughter, Elizabeth. He was made a ward of
Isabel, Duchess of Bedford (the king’s daughter) 28 Aug. 1361. On 12
Sept. 1365, having proved his age and done homage and fealty, he was
granted seisin of his lands. In 1367 John Corderay, clerk, conveyed
to him a toft, land, meadow, and wood, and 12d. rent in Penton Mewsey,
Hampshire, together with the advowson of the church there. In 1370 he
granted an annual rent out of the manor of Bierton-Stonors (in
Bierton), Buckinghamshire to the Bishop of Winchester. In 1370 he
granted an annual rent out of the manor of Bierton-Stonors (in
Bierton), Buckinghamshire to the Bishop of Winchester. In 1380 he was
on a commission to inquire as to the lands of St. Frideswide’s Priory
at Oxford which had fallen into poverty. He was on the commission of
the peace for Oxfordshire in May 1380. In 1381 he was a commissioner
for unlawful assemblies. During the Peasant’s Revolt in 1381, his
charters, tallies, and muniments were burnt by the rebels at
Gabblecote, Hertfordshire. SIR EDMUND DE STONOR died 25 April 1382.
References:
Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 2 (1894): 492–504. VCH Buckingham 2 (1908):
320–327. VCH Hampshire 4 (1911): 381–384. Kingsford, Stonor Letters
& Papers 1290–1483 1 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 29) (1919): chart opp. vii,
vii-xxi, 11-12 (Edmund de Stonor styled “brother” [frere] by Warin de
Lisle), 16 (Edmund de Stonor styled “cousin” by Gilbert Talbot, 3rd
Lord Talbot). Lamborn, Armorial Glass of the Oxford Diocese 1250–1850
(1949): 16 (Stonor arms: Azure two dances gold and a chief silver).
Stonor, Stonor (1952): chart opp. 80, 95, 107–112. Carpenter,
Kingsford’s Stonor Letters & Papers 1290–1483 (Camden Classic Reprints
1) (1996): 45–46.
Douglas Richardson
I've posted below is a line of descent from King Henry II of England
going down to newly identified Elizabeth le Strange (died 1362), wife
successively of Edmund de Saint John, 3rd Lord Saint John of Basing;
Gerard de Lisle, Knt., 1st Lord Lisle; and Richard de Pembridge, Knt.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
1. HENRY II, King of England, by a mistress, IDA DE TONY.
2. WILLIAM LONGESPÉE, Knt., Earl of Salisbury, married ELA OF
SALISBURY.
3. IDA LONGESPÉE, married WALTER FITZ ROBERT, Knt., of Little Dunmow,
Essex.
4. ELA FITZ WALTER, married WILLIAM DE ODDINGSELES, Knt., of Solihull,
Warwickshire.
5. IDA DE ODDINGSELES, married ROGER DE HERDEBURGH, Knt., of
Prilleston, Norfolk [see CLINTON 6].
6. ELA DE HERDEBURGH, married WILLIAM LE BOTELER (or LE BOTILLER),
Knt., 1st Lord Boteler of Wem.
7. ANKARET LE BOTELER, married JOHN LE STRANGE, Knt., 2nd Lord Strange
of Blackmere.
8. ELIZABETH LE STRANGE, married (1st) EDMUND DE SAINT JOHN, 3rd Lord
Saint John of Basing; (2nd) GERARD DE LISLE, Knt., 1st Lord Lisle;
(3rd) RICHARD DE PEMBRIDGE, Knt., of Orwell, Cambridgeshire, Burgate
and Lyndhurst, Hampshire, etc.
John
There seems to be disagreement or confusion, at least among the Stonor
sources cited, regarding the Lisle daughter who married Edmund Stonor,
as to (a) whether her name was Elizabeth or Margaret, and (b) whether
she was of the 1st or 2nd marriage of Sir Gerard de Lisle (i.e., was
she sister or half-sister of Sir Warin de Lisle). The limited
chronology available seems to better fit the scenario that she was of
the 1st marriage rather than the 2nd as indicated here (without
support).
In any event, the descendants of Edmund Stonor get their Plantagenet
descent in either case, since both of the wives of Sir Gerard de Lisle
are Plantagenet descendants.
John
Further note: the proposition that Elizabeth or Margaret Lisle was a
daughter of the 1st marriage of Sir Gerard de Lisle is also suggested
by some of the notes in the CP account of the Lisle family.
Douglas Richardson
This information comes from Bridget Wells-Furby regarding the given
name of Sir Edmund de Stonor's wife, Elizabeth de Lisle, and her
maternity:
"According to the reference in 'Supplementary Stonor Letters and
Papers' (Camden Miscellany xiii. Camden Soc 3rd ser. 34, 5) it was
Lisle's daughter Elizabeth who married Edmund de Stonor, and her
sister Isabel joined the nunnery of St. Mary's Winchester. I have
suggested that, on chronological considerations, it is most likely
that this Elizabeth was the daughter of Elizabeth Lestrange but I have
no firm evidence." END OF QUOTE.
On the point of which of Gerard de Lisle's wives was the mother of his
daughter, Elizabeth (de Lisle) de Stonor, I can offer the following
observations:
First, we know for a fact that Gerard de Lisle's first wife, Eleanor
de Arundel, was probably living c.1342, in which year Gerard sued his
receiver, John son of Robert de Hulle, regarding various monies
received from various manors, among them Abbotstone, Hampshire and
Walberton, Sussex. These last name properties were held by Gerard de
Lisle in right of his wife, Eleanor's dower from her first Saint John
marriage.
Second, Eleanor de Arundel was certainly deceased sometime before 30
March 1347, when it was reported that Margery, widow of Nicholas de la
Beche, who had been contracted to marry to Gerard de Lisle, Knt., had
been carried off from Beaumes manor (in Swallowfield), Berkshire, by
John de Dalton, Knt., Robert de Holand, Knt., and others. Gerard was
appointed to arrest the marauders, and, fearing bodily harm in the
attempt, was authorized to bear arms. The marriage between Gerard and
Margery was only projected, for Margery subsequently married Dalton.
Third, both of Gerard de Lisle's wives were Saint John widows and he
held the same properties in right of both wives' dower. He and his
second wife, Elizabeth le Strange, were presumably married before
1349, when he presented to the church of Abbotstone, Hampshire. This
presentation was evidently made in right of his second wife,
Elizabeth's dower from her Saint John marriage. Any right to present
to Abbotstone in right of his first wife, Eleanor, would have
terminated on Eleanor's death sometime before 30 March 1347.
Fourth, Gerard de Lisle and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange, were
definitely married before 1 July 1351, on which date a settlement was
made on Gerard de Lisle and his then wife, Elizabeth.
Fifth, it is uncertain exactly when Gerard de Lisle's daughter,
Elizabeth, was born. However, her second born son, John de Stonor, is
known to have been born about 1369. If so, one might "guesstimate"
that Elizabeth de Lisle's first born son, Edmund de Stonor, was born
about 1367. If so, this would place Elizabeth de Lisle's marriage to
Edmund de Stonor as c.1366.
Sixth, in this time period, women were usually married at about aged
13 or 14. If we can accept c.1366 as Elizabeth de Lisle's
approximate date of marriage, this would place Elizabeth's birth at c.
1352 or 1353, which is after the date that Gerard de Lisle married his
2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange.
Seventh, given the above facts and estimates, and the given name,
Elizabeth, I assume that Elizabeth de Lisle was the daughter of Gerard
de Lisle's 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange.
Finally, I might note that Gerard de Lisle's son and heir, Warin, who
was a child of his first wife, Eleanor de Arundel, was born about 1330–
6 (aged variously 24, 26 & 30 in 1360). As such Warin would have been
approximately 18 years older (give or take) than his sister,
Elizabeth. The wide differance in ages is most easily explained by
Warin and Elizabeth being half-siblings to one another.
The above information does not preclude Elizabeth (de Lisle) de Stonor
from being a child of her father's first wife, Eleanor de Arundel, but
it does make it unlikely. On that point, Bridget Wells Furby and I
are in agreement.
John
One fact overlooked in all of this is that the daughter Elizabeth
Lisle is apparently not mentioned as a daughter of the second wife
Elizabeth le Strange in the IPMs of either Sir Gerard de Lisle or his
second wife, although other children of the second wife are mentioned
and the daughter Elizabeth was clearly living at the time of both IPMs
(and unmarried at the time of her father's). No doubt it's possible
to come up with some glib "general rule" that conveniently explains
this omission - similar to the "age at marriage" rule in point six
above, which can be easily and conveniently stated but not so easily
supported by conclusive evidence.
Bridget Wells Furby has stated in the quotation above that it is "most
likely" that Elizabeth was the daughter Elizabeth le Strange. This is
a different conclusion than the one reached in the final paragraph
above, that it is "unlikely" that Elizabeth was the daughter of the
first wife Eleanor Fitzalan [or de Arundel]. If the second wife is
the "most likely" mother, that simply makes the first wife "less
likely" to be the mother - but not necessarily "unlikely". And as
Bridget Wells Furby states clearly, there is "no firm evidence" to
definitively support either conclusion. This sounds more like a case
of "possible" (or maybe even "probable") but "unproven".
Douglas Richardson
< One fact overlooked in all of this is that the daughter Elizabeth
< Lisle is apparently not mentioned as a daughter of the second wife
< Elizabeth le Strange in the IPMs of either Sir Gerard de Lisle or
his
< second wife, although other children of the second wife are
mentioned
< and the daughter Elizabeth was clearly living at the time of both
IPMs
< (and unmarried at the time of her father's). No doubt it's possible
< to come up with some glib "general rule" that conveniently explains
< this omission - similar to the "age at marriage" rule in point six
< above, which can be easily and conveniently stated but not so easily
< supported by conclusive evidence.
It's an unfortunate fact that IPM's usually name surviving male issue
(if such exists) to the exclusion of female issue. But in this
case, there actually is a better reason why female issue was not named
in the IPM's. As I recall, Gerard de Lisle settled property on his
2nd wife, Elizabeth, and their male issue, with reversion to his other
male issue, and then to his right heirs. This kind of settlement had
the effect of excluding female issue from obtaining the lands, as long
as Gerard de Lisle had male issue by either of his wives that
survived. Even though Gerard's two sons by Elizabeth le Strange that
died young, Gerard de Lisle had a son, Warin, that survived from his
1st marriage and he left surviving issue. Thus Warin de Lisle was the
heir of the properties settled on his father's 2nd wife and her issue
to the exclusion of any female issue born of the 2nd marriage. And,
if a person does not stand in position as an heir, they usually aren't
mentioned in an IPM.
> Bridget Wells Furby has stated in the quotation above that it is "most
> likely" that Elizabeth was the daughter Elizabeth le Strange. This is
> a different conclusion than the one reached in the final paragraph
> above, that it is "unlikely" that Elizabeth was the daughter of the
> first wife Eleanor Fitzalan [or de Arundel]. If the second wife is
> the "most likely" mother, that simply makes the first wife "less
> likely" to be the mother - but not necessarily "unlikely". And as
> Bridget Wells Furby states clearly, there is "no firm evidence" to
> definitively support either conclusion. This sounds more like a case
> of "possible" (or maybe even "probable") but "unproven".
"Most likely" means "most likely." I concur with Bridget Wells
Furby.