TRYPHOSA LEE and the TRAITORS of RUNNYMEADE
Bryant Smith
She married Stephen Tracy, also from Great Yarmouth, in Leyden
on 2 January 1620/21 and their first daughter, Sarah, was born
there in 1622. They were among the Dissenters who camped in Holland
while arrangements were made to go to America, and Stephen sailed
without Tryphosa (who was pregnant again) on the "Anne," arriving
at Plymouth in 1623. Tryphosa followed with the rest of the family
on the "Jacob" in 1625. It is not clear whether Sarah went with
her father on the "Anne" or later with her mother on the "Jacob."
I believe Sarah, who married George Partridge and is the ancestor
of many Americans today, can trace her ancestry,k through her
mother Tryphosa, to at least two of the villains of Runnymeade.
Neither Tryphosa, nor Stephen (who although he returned to England
was a very active colonist), nor Sarah, nor her husband George
Partridge, is mentioned in the list of "Colonists whose ancestry
is discussed" in the new edition of Weis et al., Magna Carta Sureties
although most of the first ten generations or so of the following
tables are in the book.
Firstly, I offer for criticism a descent from Robert Fitzwalter
of Woodham, the chief traitor:
1 ROBERT FITZWALTER, of WOODHAM
+ROHESE (FITZWALTER)
2 WALTER FITZROBERT
+IDA LONGESPEE b: 1222
3 ELA FITZROBERT aka: ELA FITZWALTER b: circa 1252
+WILLIAM II ODYNGSELLS b: circa 1250
4 MARGARET ODYNGSELLS b: Aft. 1270
+JOHN de GREY b: circa 1271
5 JOHN de GREY b: 9 October 1300 of Rotherfield,
Oxfordshire; 1st Lord Grey of Rotherfield
*2nd Wife of JOHN de GREY:
+AVICE MARMION
6 MAUD GREY b: circa 1338 Rotherfield, Oxfordshire
+THOMAS de HARCOURT b: 1343 Bosworth, Leicestershire
7 THOMAS de HARCOURT b: 1377 Bosworth, Leicestershire
+JOAN FRANCIS aka: JOAN FRANCEYS b: circa 1383 Foremark, Derbyshire
8 RICHARD HARCOURT b: circa 1416 Staunton Harcourt, Oxfordshire
+EDITH SAINT CLAIRE b: circa 1425 Wethersfield, Suffolk
9 ALICE HARCOURT b: circa 1450 Staunton Harcourt, Oxfordshire
+WILLIAM BESSILES b: 1444 Bessiles-Leigh, Berkshire
10 ELIZABETH BESSILES b: circa 1465 Bessiles-Leigh, Berkshire
+RICHARD FETTIPLACE b: circa 1460 Shefford, Berkshire
11 JOHN FETTIPLACE b: circa 1484 Shefford, Berkshire
+DOROTHY DANVERS b: circa 1485 Culworth, Oxfordshire
12 MARGARET FETTIPLACE b: 1514 Shefford, Berkshire
+JOHN HUNGERFORD b: 1513 Down Ampney, Gloucestershire
13 ANTHONY HUNGERFORD b: 1540 Down Ampney, Gloucestershire
+BRIDGET SHELLEY b: 1536 Michaelgrace, Sussex
14 ANNE HUNGERFORD b: 1574 England
+JOOS LEE b: 1566 England
15 TRYPHOSA LEE b: circa 1597 Gr. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Secondly, I offer a double line from the villain William Malet:
1 WILLIAM MALET b: circa 1180 Sheriff of Somerset & Devon
+ALICIA BASSET
2 MABEL MALET
+HUGH de VIVONIA Bet. 1221 - 1232 Seneschal of Gascony
3 WILLIAM de VIVONNE
+MAUD de FERRERS
4 CICELY de VIVONNE
+JOHN BEAUCHAMP b: Bef. 1249
5 ALIANORE BEAUCHAMP
+FULK FITZWARIN b: circa 1250
6 HAWISE FITZWARIN b: circa 1276
+ROBERT de HOO b: circa 1274
7 THOMAS de HOO b: circa 1318
+ISABEL de SAINT LEGER b: 16 June 1320
8 WILLIAM de HOO b: circa 1342
+ALICE SAINT OMER
9 MARGARET de HOO b: 1398 Wethersfield, Suffolk
+THOMAS SAINT CLAIRE b: 1394 Wethersfield, Suffolk
10 EDITH SAINT CLAIRE b: circa 1425 Wethersfield, Suffolk
+RICHARD HARCOURT b: circa 1416 Staanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire
11 ALICE HARCOURT b: circa 1450 Staanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire
+WILLIAM BESSILES b: 1444 Bessiles-Leigh, Berkshire
12 ELIZABETH BESSILES b: circa 1465 Bessiles-Leigh, Berkshire
+RICHARD FETTIPLACE b: circa 1460 Shefford, Berkshire
13 JOHN FETTIPLACE b: circa 1484 Shefford, Berkshire
+DOROTHY DANVERS b: circa 1485 Culworth, Oxfordshire
14 MARGARET FETTIPLACE b: 1514 Shefford, Berkshire
+JOHN HUNGERFORD b: 1513 Down Ampney, Gloucestershire
15 [2] ANTHONY HUNGERFORD b: 1540 Down Ampney, Gloucestershire
+[1] BRIDGET SHELLEY b: 1536 Michaelgrace, Sussex
16 [3] ANNE HUNGERFORD b: 1574 England
+[4] JOOS LEE b: 1566 England
17 [5] TRYPHOSA LEE b: circa 1597 Gr. Yarmouth, Norfolk
2 HELEWISIA MALET aka: Hawise Malet b: 1200
*2nd Husband of HELEWISIA MALET:
+ROBERT MUSCEGROS
3 JOHN MUSCEGROS b: 10 August 1232
+CECILY AVENAL
4 ROBERT MUSCEGROS b: circa 1252
+AGNES de FERRERS
5 HAWISE MUSCEGROS b: 21 December 1276
+JOHN de BURES
6 CATHERINE de BURES b: Bef. 1315
+GILES de BEAUCHAMP b: circa 1302 of Alcester and Powyke
7 JOHN de BEAUCHAMP b: circa 1339
+ELIZABETH ST JOHN
8 ALICE BEAUCHAMP b: circa 1366 Griffe, Warwickshire
+THOMAS BOTILER aka: THOMAS BUTLER, of SUDELEY b: 1362
9 JOAN BOTILER b: 1395 Griffe, Warwickshire
+HAMON BELKNAP b: circa 1394 Griffe, Warwickshire
10 HENRY BELKNAP b: Bet. 1434 - 1435 Griffe, Warwickshire
+MARGARET KNOLLES b: 1432 Sussex
11 ALICE BELKNAP b: circa 1475 Giddy Hall, Sussex
+WILLIAM SHELLEY b: circa 1480 Clapham, Sussex
12 JOHN SHELLEY b: 1506 Clapham, Sussex
+MARY FITZWILLIAM b: 1510 Milton, Kent, England
13 [1] BRIDGET SHELLEY b: 1536 Michaelgrace, Sussex
+[2] ANTHONY HUNGERFORD b: 1540 Down Ampney, Gloucestershire
14 [3] ANNE HUNGERFORD b: 1574 England
+[4] JOOS LEE b: 1566 England
15 [5] TRYPHOSA LEE b: circa 1597 Gr. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
Leslie Mahler
Interesting. This descent isnt found in Gary Boyd Roberts _Royal Descents of
500 Immigrants".
(http://www.aracnet.com/~gwyddon/RD500.htm)
Is this a well documented line, with evidence for each generation,
or is it just a line pedigree found in an old book, without any
documentation??
Leslie
--
Posted from 64.sanjose-03-04rs16rt.ca.dial-access.att.net [12.81.1.64]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
David Greene
ancestry of Tryphosa (Lee) Tracy are unknown. Nothing appears in the
discussions in
Jacobus's Waterman Family, vol. 1, Jacobus's Ackley-Bosworth Acestry, or in
Wakefield's discussions in TAG vol. 51 (1975).
Hence I too would like to know the evidence for Tryphosa's parentage before we
take the discussion further!
DAVID GREENE
--
Posted from r-246.85.alltel.net [166.102.246.85]
D. Spencer Hines
This looks to be yet another Genealogical SWAG, killed by a brutal gang
of stubborn, intransigent, insensitive and mean-spirited facts.
Deus Vult.
What say ye, El Poco Loco?
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"David Greene" <am...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3181e600e70466141b2...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Bryant Smith
> Interesting. This descent isnt found in Gary Boyd Roberts _Royal Descents of
> 500 Immigrants".
> (http://www.aracnet.com/~gwyddon/RD500.htm)
>
> Is this a well documented line, with evidence for each generation,
> or is it just a line pedigree found in an old book, without any
> documentation??
>
the more likely it is that it is just a line pedigree found in an old
book called Weis, Magna Carta Sureties (5th Ed. 1999). The later
ancestry of Anne Hungerford was originally based on an ahnentafel
I found at genserv.com and of which I was very suspicious because
of problems in the de Fiennes part of it (not relevant here), but
I think the Shelley connection was "blessed" in this NG a while back.
I think the key issue is the immediate parentage of Tryphosa Lee.
What is shown about that here is widely accepted by dummies like
me and published in many websites. See
Pedigree chart of Walter Robert Byard
http://www.aros.net/~bbyard/Father.html
Shirley York Anderson's homepage
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~syafam/wlmsanc7.htm
Kunkel FamilyGenealogy Page
http://kunkel.hispeed.com/Kunkel/D0134/I10936.html
KingFamily of Suffield, Ct.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~worths/king/pg02fuller.html
(Bridget Lee [elsewhere a sister of Tryphosa] was the 3rd wife of
Mayflower
passenger Samuel Fuller)
Ahnentafel of Eugene Martin Townsend
http://www.wellswooster.com/evansahn.htm
Family genealogy of Schutt,Cummings,Slagle,&Bell as researched by Fred
Schutt
http://www.gbnf.com/genealog2/schutt/html/d0002/I175.HTM
Mayo Genealogy web site
http://mayogenealogy.com/FamilyCards/WC01/WC01_116.htm
Cassandra's Genealogy Pages
http://www.ida.net/users/hanson26/dat42.htm#9
Ancestors of Verna Lawrence Burch
http://www.uftree.com/UFT/WebPages/elliebu/VERNA/d1/i0011192.htm#i11193
Ahnentafel of Helene (Elwood)
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Lee.html#joo
Independence Day Family Association website
http://farmweb.tripod.com/genealogy/_lee.htm#F36
Ancestors of Shirley Fay Chesley
http://www.xprt.net/~abacus/chesley/pafg18.htm#300
Long Island Genealogy Wesite
http://www.longislandgenealogy.com/kelsey/fam00367.htm
Harry C. Hadaway, Jr., PLYMOUTH & CAPE COD MA GENEALOGY
http://www.gendex.com/users/hhadaway/harry/fam01297.htm
Mr Hadaway cites as sources:
1) Plymouth Colony Its History & People 1620-1691 by Eugene Aubrey
Stratton
2) Birth-Marriage: Hills "Planters" II:64
3) http://www.gendex.com/users/Partridg/Partridge/dat45.htm#3
4) Plymouth County Vital Records, Marriages in the Court Records
5) Plymouth Colony Its History & People 1620-1691 by Eugene Aubrey
Stratton
6) Chrisman Pedigree
7) Genealogical Register of Plymouth Families by William T. Davis 1895
8) http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/w/i/l/Kirby-H-Wilson/GENE6-0012.html
Unfortunately his citation for the birth of Tryphosa is #3 above,
which is "NOT FOUND" anymore.
Yes they (and I) can all be wrong, based on some common erroneous
source recklessly propagated. But the wide acceptance of the
parentage makes it worthy of investigation rather than of summary
dismissal. And it is a very important issue, because Anne Hungerford
may prove to be a gateway to English and Spanish royalty.
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
> Leslie
Bryant Smith
novel.
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
"David Greene" <am...@alltel.net> wrote in message News:<3181e600e70466141b2...@mygate.mailgate.org>...
Bryant Smith
> Hmmmmmmm.
>
> This looks to be yet another Genealogical SWAG, killed by a brutal gang
> of stubborn, intransigent, insensitive and mean-spirited facts.
>
>
What can I say, except that "El is a definite article
calling for a noun, which neither "poco" nor "loco" happens
to be, cara pincha?
D. Spencer Hines
is shown about that here is widely accepted by dummies like me and
El Pollo Loco
---------------
Damned straight.
He got that one right.
Even a blind pig occasionally roots up an acorn.
| > Is this a well documented line, with evidence for each generation,
| > or is it just a line pedigree found in an old book, without any
| > documentation??
Leslie Mahler
| Does it have to be all one or all the other?
El Pollo Loco
Yes. Otherwise you are just playing Genealogical Stickfinger.
A Pedigree stands or falls by its weakest link.
If you don't even know who the hell "Tryphosa Lee's" PARENTS are, for
sure, this is all pretty damned silly ---- and a waste of our time ----
El Pollo Loco.
Ay, Caramba!
Deus Vult.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr> wrote in message
news:a9b2ce02.01110...@posting.google.com...
D. Spencer Hines
rubbish ---- in an amalgam of supine incompetence and genealogical
incontinence.
Not Accepted.
Deus Vult.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr> wrote in message
news:a9b2ce02.0111...@posting.google.com...
THIA...@aol.com
soc.genealogy.britain posted 2001-09-07 regarding a possible link to U. S.
Grant.
The source shown as connecting Tryphosa Lee to Anne Hungerford is stated to
be "Aelteste Genealogie der Familie Bischoff" in Basel. It supposedly
reports (according to the newsgroup posting)
"Husband: Joos Lee, born 1570 "of Leiden, South Holland, Holland." He
married, about 1590, in England, to Anne Hungerford. Joos died 8 Jul 1671 at
Leiden, South Holland, Holland. Anne was born at Farleigh Hungerford. Their
child: Tryphosa Lee born 1596-1599 in Leiden. She married 2 Jan 1619/20 in
Leiden to Stephen Tracy. She died 1655 at Plymouth, MA."
Maybe this is something that can be verified. Maybe it is just junk.
I have subscribed to this newsgroup for about 3 months now. I am a fledgling
amateur family historian. Although I have learned a lot from this group, I
don't pretend to even know enough to be dangerous.
I think however that if there is truth to this, it would be a wonderful find.
My only link back to royalty so far is through a "daughter" Alice Freeman
Thompson Parke. If Tryphosa's line turns out to be genuine it would give me
a possible line to Magna Carta, again through a daughter.
Ladies and gentlemen of this learned group, here's hoping that Tryphosa
piques your interest.
Regards,
Thia Montgomery
thia...@aol.com
Gryphon801
not established.
D. Spencer Hines
Even Pogue Thompson sees that.
You've been imbibing too many margaritas in the morning.
Deus Vult.
Dies Irae.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Gryphon801" <gryph...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011108142209...@mb-fr.aol.com...
Bryant Smith
The lady cites a source hitherto unmentioned, and you
shrug it off unread.
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
gryph...@aol.com (Gryphon801) wrote in message news:<20011108142209...@mb-fr.aol.com>...
Leslie Mahler
Ive looked at most of the sites you listed.
Unfortunately, they cant agree as to where Tryphosa was born, in either
Great Yarmouth, England, or Leiden in the Netherlands.
The baptismal registers for Yarmouth begin in 1558, and they've been put into
the IGI. That source shows no extracted [ie, original] baptism for
Tryphosa there. Theres a chance that a gap exists in the register, but more
likely, she wasnt baptized there [I looked at it once years ago, and it seemed
to be complete].
Some of the sources you listed show Joos Lee living up to about 100 years old
in the Netherlands. Its unfortunate that no one provides any documentation.
"Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr> wrote
> Yes they (and I) can all be wrong, based on some common erroneous
> source recklessly propagated. But the wide acceptance of the
> parentage makes it worthy of investigation rather than of summary
> dismissal. And it is a very important issue, because Anne Hungerford
> may prove to be a gateway to English and Spanish royalty.
>
> Saludos
> Bryant Smith
> Playa Palo Seco
> Costa Rica
Those descendants who are truly interested will make a full investigation.
Leslie
--
Posted from 30.sanjose-03-04rs16rt.ca.dial-access.att.net [12.81.1.30]
Gryphon801
is that the parentage of Tryphosa (Lee) Tracy remains unknown, as appears in
_The Great Migration Begins_ 3:1830-32. I made an effort to test the
Hungerford hypothesis on behalf of a client and it did not work out; there is
evidence against it. When you have yourself studied a matter it is not
"pompous" to express an opinion based upon that study.
malinda
caught my eye. I happened to run across a brief Hungerford pedigree chart
earlier this evening in the document below.
Might prove helpful......~malinda
The Gloucestershire Visitations of 1635
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/nigel.battysmith/Gloucestershire/visitations/index.html
The "real" Index page
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/nigel.battysmith/Gloucestershire/visitations/p292.html
Sam Sloan
>"Novel" ---- "Novel" ---- is El Pollo Loco's excuse for posting
>rubbish ---- in an amalgam of supine incompetence and genealogical
>incontinence.
>
>Not Accepted.
>
>Deus Vult.
Although I am completely against censorship, I would like for somebody to
explain why this person is allowed to continue to post, day after day, this
rubbish to the list.
Sam Sloan
Sutliff
"Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:3.0.6.32.2001110...@ishipress.com...
<snip>
>
> Although I am completely against censorship, I would like for somebody to
> explain why this person is allowed to continue to post, day after day,
this
> rubbish to the list.
>
> Sam Sloan
>
By virtue of the same freedom which permits you to continually post your
off-topic Jefferson agenda in complete defiance of repeated requests from
the co-list owner to post relevant to the forum.
Exactly what part of off-topic do you not understand?
Henry Sutliff
Bryant Smith
Sam, laying aside the oxymoron in your protest, <censored> is "allowed"
to continue precisely because this is an "un-moderated" newsgroup, meaning
nobody is set up with power to filter out (suppress) "objectionable" posts.
Would you have it otherwise? I've seen remarks by others here that might
lead one to believe you yourself might be prevented from displaying your
wares here.
Bryant Smith
Well said, but it would have been better said in the earlier post. That is,
what you now say about your previous test of the "Hungerford hypothesis"
is far less abrupt, and far more reasonable, than what you said earlier.
I still would say that "remains unknown" implies "not disproven," wherefore
every new piece of evidence turned up should call for a fresh look. And
apparently the Basel document has not yet been looked at. Is it just another
unsupported family chart, or does it offer any fresh sources? The fat lady
hasn't sung yet.
However, I must give credit to Thia Montgomery for the URL she cited. Among
the things to be found there is a potential DISproof of the "Hungerford
hypothesis." It appears that when Bridget Lee, probably a sister of Tryphosa,
married Samuel Fuller, her witnesses were "Josephine Lee (mother)" and
"Samuel Lee (brother)." If Bridget Lee was Tryphosa's sister and Bridget's
mother's name was Josephine (which it was, if the document proves up), then
the probability is that Tryhosa's mother's name was not Anne. I still
hope to see more about that Basel document, but would say at this point that
rehabilitation of the "Hungerford hypothesis" will require a satisfactory
explanation of the purported record of Bridget's marriage.
Sam Sloan
However, there is a difference.
You claim that my postings are off-topic.
However, most of the postings by <censored> are on no topic at all. He says
nothing but one or two meaningless words, and then fills up several
computer screens with his inane signatures.
Sam Sloan
D. Spencer Hines
Dead Wrong.
Hilarious!
This fellow was, by his own account, a charter member of the so-called
"Free Speech Movement" [FSM] at the University of California, Berkeley,
in the 1960's.
For those who have not heard of these idiocies, this involved parading
around Berkeley with large signs bearing the words _F--K_, _C--T_, and
so forth. They thought this was great fun and attracted the media, of
course. It led these pogues to think they were famous, or what-not ----
15 minutes of fame.
Sloan now proves, indubitably, that he is NOT in favour of Free Speech,
if HIS ox is being gored.
Sloan is only in favour of Free Speech for those who AGREE with him and
buy into his rampant lunacies ---- not the others.
He came here to flack his tawdry little self-published book, was
repeatedly exposed as a fraud and a charlatan ---- and now he's angry.
So Sad, Too Bad.
The Truth Will Out ---- When We Have Free Speech, One Of The Great
Virtues Of USENET.
How Sweet It Is!
Deus Vult.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:z3XG7.28427$hZ.26...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Rosie Bevan
Todd and a number of other people. What is it that makes you think Jefferson
was medieval.? What have you contributed to the discussion of medieval
topics? Wake up Sam! The operative word here is MEDIEVAL.
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: TRYPHOSA LEE and the TRAITORS of RUNNYMEADE
> At 08:32 PM 11/9/2001 GMT, Sutliff wrote:
> >
> >"Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote in message
> >news:3.0.6.32.2001110...@ishipress.com...
> ><snip>
> >>
> >> Although I am completely against censorship, I would like for somebody
to
> >> explain why this person is allowed to continue to post, day after day,
> >this
> >> rubbish to the list.
> >>
> >> Sam Sloan
> >>
> >
> >By virtue of the same freedom which permits you to continually post your
> >off-topic Jefferson agenda in complete defiance of repeated requests from
> >the co-list owner to post relevant to the forum.
> >
> >Exactly what part of off-topic do you not understand?
> >
> >Henry Sutliff
>
Norris
>So far as published works available to me are concerned, the parentage and
>ancestry of Tryphosa (Lee) Tracy are unknown. Nothing appears in the
>discussions in
>Jacobus's Waterman Family, vol. 1, Jacobus's Ackley-Bosworth Acestry, or in
>Wakefield's discussions in TAG vol. 51 (1975).
>
>Hence I too would like to know the evidence for Tryphosa's parentage before we
>take the discussion further!
Hi David:
At this web page are various source documents from Leiden:
By hitting the link for Pilgrims, then search for "Lee", one finds 22
source docs for the Lees.
I have not been through these for awhile, so will not back through the
22 again here today; but will report that the marriages for both
Stephen Tracy to Tryphosa Lee and for Samuel Fuller to Bridget Lee
(his third marriage) are found here.
Bridget Lee's marriage was witnessed by mother Josephine Lee - which
may have been the source of confusion for the name of a "Joos" Lee -
although it is odd that this name of "Joos" given to a father by some,
rather than a mother.
___________
Marriage record:
"1032 / B 64 / 27-5-1617 Marriage certificate
Parties: Samuel Fuller, widower of Ann Carpenter, sayworker,
England; Bridget Lee, spinster, England;
Marriage certificate Samuel Fuller and Bridget Lee, 1617
Witnesses: Samuel Lee, fut. brother-in-law, Josephine Lee, her
mother. "
_____________
At any rate, Bridget and Tryphosa Lee were apparently contemporaries,
living in Leiden at the same time, and lived in America in approximte
proximity (Plymouth vs Duxbury). There was a brother of Bridget named
Samuel Lee who is probably the Samuel Lee mentioned in several more
Leiden documents well past the time that Tracy and Fuller went to
America. I don't know if following up with this brother would lead
anywhere or not.
There are several Lee names that "pop up" in these records - it would
sure be interesting if someone could tie them together: Jane Lee,
Martha Lee, etc.
For example, a Rose Jennings witnessed the will of Stephen Tracy to
Tryposa Lee in 1621; while a Jane Lee witnessed the marriage of John
Jennings to Sarah Carey in 1614.
I understand there is presently a Leiden project underway - a
genealogical dictionary of Leiden in the 1600's tieing all of these
names together would sure be interesting.
At any rate, I have found nothing to support this "Joos Lee / Mary
Hungerford" pair, who they were, any document showing their names, or
any document tieing them to a wife of Stephen Tracy.
Norris Taylor
--
Silver Bullet <nm...@ix.netcom.com>
Home Page: http://members.aol.com/ntgen/index.html
---------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
> However, there is a difference.
No, there is none.
> You claim that my postings are off-topic.
They ARE off-topic - look at the charter. While you are there,
find the place where it tells you its OK to cross-post to a chess
group. (Didn't find it? That should tell you something.)
> However, most of the postings by <censored> are on no topic at all. He says
> nothing but one or two meaningless words, and then fills up several
> computer screens with his inane signatures.
There are two types of posts here. Those about medieval
genealogy, and those that are off-topic.
taf
Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitor
I'll return later with my blissful ignorance....
"Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr> wrote in message
news:a9b2ce02.01110...@posting.google.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Don't Return ---- just cuddle up somewhere with those who are as
ignorant as yourself.
That way your coveted Self Esteem won't suffer ---- and you can lick
your wounds in relative privacy.
Deus Vult.
Exitus Acta Probat.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitor" <co...@flakes.com> wrote in message
news:F78N7.74903$HA6.11...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
THIA...@aol.com
(Bishop) family which is in the Library at the University at Basel,
Switzerland. I e-mailed and received a response back from the library that
the document is there but based on the dates it isn't likely that there is
anything on Tryphosa in it as I was assured that there was nothing in the
17th century at all.
The Lee part of Tryphosa appears also to be conjecture as the photocopy of
the marriage document that can be found on the web shows only Le ---- looks
like Le or maybe it is Li but it doesn't appear to be clearly Lee.
It looks like somebody put two and two together and came up with what had to
be the last name because it would fit with the others in the group. There is
a Lisle in the same group who was known as Lee so it is possible that
Tryphosa's name is Lisle, or anything else for that matter.
If Josephine Lee were Tryphosa's mother, why wasn't she the witness for the
bride as she was for her other daughter Bridget? Quite possibly, she is
Bridget's mother as it states on that marriage document and neither she nor
Bridget are any relation to Tryphosa.
Since some of this group are known to have come from the Ancient Church, it
is also possible that they were not part of the Brewster contingent at all.
There doesn't appear to be any credible evidence to support who Tryphosa's
parents are.
Possibly there will be some clues in colonial New England. Or Tryphosa may
remain a mystery.
Regards to all,
Thia