Daughters of Henry III, Count of Louvain and Brabant, died 1095
Douglas Richardson
Europaische Stanmtafeln, 1 (1980): 95 states that Henry III, Count of
Louvain and Brabant, died 1095, had four daughters, none of which are
named. The online source below concurs that Count Henry had four
daughters. It states that it was recently established that one of the
daughters, Adele, married Simon 1 de Lorraine, and that another
daughter, Gertrude, seems to have married Lambert, Count of Montaigu.
A third possible daughhter is named as Ava, lady of Wavre. It states
that a precise genealogy of the Wavre family, however, is not possible
due to a lack of documents.
Adele, wife of Simon 1 de Lorraine, is ancestress of the following
individuals:
Blanche of Artois, Isabel of France (wife of King Edward II of
England), Margaret of France (2nd wife of King Edward I of England),
Geoffrey de Geneville, and Jacquette de Luxembourg.
Comments anyone?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://webplaza.pt.lu/boursch/loutsch1.htm
Le premier seigneur de Wavre connu avec certitude est le comte Henri
III de Louvain (1079-1095), et ce en 1086. Il avait quatre filles,
dont on ne sait pas grand'chose. Récemment, il a été établi que
l'une d'elles, Adèle, fut mariée au duc Simon 1 de Lorraine (01076, +
1139) (13), une autre, Gertrude, semble avoir épousé Lambert, comte
de Montaigu (cit. 1095-1147) (14), des deux autres on ne sait rien.
D'après M. Martin, une de ces filles pourrait être Ava, dame de
Wavre, citée dès 1125 avec ses fils, mariée à un "nobilis vir"
Siger (peut-être de Pellenberg près de Louvain). Ils seraient les
auteurs de la famille de Wavre. Ceci est d'autant plus vraisembable
qu'il existe des preuves d'une parenté entre cette famille et les
comtes de Louvain, ducs de Brabant, et que, e[1 plus de la seigneurie
de Wavre, tous les alleux en possession de ses seigneurs proviennent
des comtes de Louvain.
Une généalogie précise de la famille de Wavre n'est malheureusement
pas possible faute de documents. Le fait que les Wavre se soient
éteints au début du XIVe siècle n'y est sans doute pas étranger. La
filiation s'établit à peu près de la manière suivante:
Footnote 13: Georges Pauli: La maison ducale de Lorraine, l, Michel
Parisse: Noblesse et chevalerie en Lorraine médiévale, Nancy 1982 et
note suivante.
Footnote 14: Paul Anen: Adêle de Louvain épouse de Simon 1 duc de
Lorraine. ln: Intermédiaire des généalogistes 1961, pg. 61.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1160211112.6...@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Europaische Stanmtafeln, 1 (1980): 95 states that Henry III, Count of
> Louvain and Brabant, died 1095, had four daughters, none of which are
> named. The online source below concurs that Count Henry had four
> daughters. It states that it was recently established that one of the
> daughters, Adele, married Simon 1 de Lorraine, and that another
> daughter, Gertrude, seems to have married Lambert, Count of Montaigu.
> A third possible daughhter is named as Ava, lady of Wavre. It states
> that a precise genealogy of the Wavre family, however, is not possible
> due to a lack of documents.
>
> Adele, wife of Simon 1 de Lorraine, is ancestress of the following
> individuals:
>
> Blanche of Artois, Isabel of France (wife of King Edward II of
> England), Margaret of France (2nd wife of King Edward I of England),
> Geoffrey de Geneville, and Jacquette de Luxembourg.
>
> Comments anyone?
The conjecture that Adelaide the wife of Simon I of Lorraine was a daughter
of Count Henri III of Louvain is not "recent", and certainly not
"established". The attempt to identify any of her three sisters is equally
speculative.
Why, for starters, does your source suggest that such an ambitious man as
Simon of Lorraine did not pursue a claim of his wife to inherit Louvain as
one of four sisters born to a count with no sons? Ditto Lambert of Montaigu
and any other husband supposedly attached to this brood, of whom nothing is
actually known except their existence, sex and number?
Or is this just a fishing exercise with no firm information behind it?
Peter Stewart
Birds
I can recall a previous string:
There probably will be more on the subject.
Hans Vogels
Douglas Richardson schreef:
WJho...@aol.com
p_m_s...@msn.com writes:
<< Why, for starters, does your source suggest that such an ambitious man as
Simon of Lorraine did not pursue a claim of his wife to inherit Louvain as
one of four sisters born to a count with no sons? Ditto Lambert of Montaigu
and any other husband supposedly attached to this brood, >>
At the time of Henry III, Count of Louvain's death, given as Feb 1095, his
four daughters, must have been children if not infants. Their husbands might
equally well have been.
So the claim if any would have to be enforced by someone like Thierry, Duke
of Lorraine, Simon's father I suppose.
What did happen when Henry died? Chaos?
Will
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:be4.5970be...@aol.com...
Nothing so dramatic - the powers of counts were hardly so essential to
society that their interrupton or irregular transmission would always be a
cause of disorder within their territories.
In this case, Henri's younger brother Godefroy the Bearded took over as
count of Louvain. Henri's widow Gertrude was not in a strong position to
object, much less on behalf of four young daughters, since her father Robert
Friso had usurped the rights of his young nephew in Flanders a generation
earlier.
However, she was remarried to a powerful magnate nearby, Thierry the Valiant
of Upper Lorraine, and I find it odd that no murmur appears to have been
raised later when his son Simon was old enough to rule in Louvain as husband
to one of its putative heiresses, if indeed Adelaide belonged to this
family.
Peter Stewart
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Europaische Stanmtafeln, 1 (1980): 95 states that Henry III, Count of
> Louvain and Brabant, died 1095, had four daughters, none of which are
> named. The online source below concurs that Count Henry had four
> daughters. It states that it was recently established that one of the
> daughters, Adele, married Simon 1 de Lorraine, and that another
> daughter, Gertrude, seems to have married Lambert, Count of Montaigu.
> A third possible daughhter is named as Ava, lady of Wavre.
>
> Comments anyone?
Yes: be wary of online sources.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 10/10/2006 12:13:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_s...@msn.com writes:
However, she was remarried to a powerful magnate nearby, Thierry the Valiant
of Upper Lorraine, and I find it odd that no murmur appears to have been
raised later when his son Simon was old enough to rule in Louvain as husband
to one of its putative heiresses, if indeed Adelaide belonged to this
family.
But if I understand you correctly, nobody raised a murmur.
So then that would imply possibly that the four young daughters all died
before becoming adults. Otherwise one or another of their husbands should have
raised a murmur.
Roger LeBlanc
1106-1139, so I am just wondering if there was in fact an interim period
between these two brothers?
Roger LeBlanc
WJho...@aol.com
lebl...@mts.net writes:
<< According to the Roglo database Godefroy was Count of Louvain from
1106-1139, so I am just wondering if there was in fact an interim period
between these two brothers? >>
Wikipedia has a correction ? That he was Count of Louvain from 1095 and "Duke
of Lower Lorraine" from 1106 to 1129.
Unfortunately they cite no sources, so I'm going to tag the article, maybe
someone will come back and add where they got this from.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/continent/ll/lorraine02.htm
I noticed a date discrepancy in the children of
Gozelo I, Duke of Antwerp, and Upper and /Lower Lorraine/
who is said there to have died 19 Apr 1004
and yet his daughter Regelinde (Regelindis) is said there to have been
b c 1015, 10 years after her father died.
Will Johnson
Roger LeBlanc
"Louvain-Ponthieu link?" from April 2005 which also offered speculation
about these daughters.
Roger LeBlanc
Douglas Richardson
The earlier thread which discussed the matter of the daughters of Count
Henry III of Louvain and Brabant can be access at the following weblink
which was already kindlly provided by Hans:
In the first of that thread, John Carmi Parsons noted that Count John I
of Ponthieu (died 1191) referred to Count Philip of Flanders as his
"kinsman" ["cognatus"] in an undated letter 1172 X 1190 [Reference: C.
Brunel, Recueil des actes des comtes de Pontieu (1026-1279) (Paris,
1930), no. 122)].
Mr. Parsons identified Count John I of Ponthieu as the son of Count Guy
II (died 1147), by his wife, Ida (died 1177/78), which Ida is of
unknown parentage. Count John I's kinsman, Philip of Flanders was in
turn the son of Dietrich/Thierry "of Alsace," Count of Flanders, by
his second wife, Sibylle of Anjou.
At the time of the earlier thread, I was of the impression that
references to kinship in that time period were the same as in later
periods, that is, a person could refer to anyone within the 5th degree
of kindred as his cousin. However, after studying numerous examples of
kinship in records dating pre-1200, it is clear now that stated
kinships before 1200 were usually much closer in nature, typically
first or second cousins.
Consequently, it seems virtually certain that Count John's mother, Ida,
was a near relative of one of Count Philip's parents. And, in this
case, since Count Philip's'mother's Anjou kinsfolk seem to be well
known, Count John's mother, Ida, would presumably be very closely
related to one of Count Philip's paternal grandparents, Thierry II,
Duke of Lorraine, and his wife, Gertrude of Flanders.
This leads us to the question of Gertrude of Flanders' undetermined
issue by her first husband, Henry III, Count of Louvain and Brabant
(died 1095). This marriage is said to have been blessed with four
daughters. Of these four daughters, one is thought to have been Adele
(or Adelheid), wife of Simon I de Lorraine, and another daughter,
Gertrude, is claimed to married Lambert, Count of Montaigu. Ava, lady
of Wavre, has been suggested as a third daughter.
If Count John I of Ponthieu's mother, Ida, was descended from one of
the four daughters of Gertrude of Flanders and Count Henry III, it
would readily explain his kinship to Count Philip of Flanders. As
such, it would be most helpful if the identity of the four daughters of
Gertrude and Henry III could be determined. The Flanders-Brabant
marriage looks promising to me as the connecting link, if for no other
reason than we know that Count Henry III had a sister named Ida, not to
mention that Gertrude of Flanders had a maternal aunt named Ida. Ida
was also the given name of the wife of Count Henry III's brother, Duke
Godfrey I, namely Ida of Chiny.
At the present time, I have no suitable candidates to advance for the
parents of Count John's mother, Ida. My files indicate that Ida and
her husband, Count Guy II, had four children, namely Jean [Count of
Ponthieu], Guy [seigneur of Noyelles], Agnès and Edela (wife of Renaud
de Saint Valéry). With the exception of the name, Guy, quite possibly
the names of the other three children might provide us a clue to
Countess Ida of Ponthieu's parentage.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of people who descend from
Count John I of Ponthieu and his mother, Countess Ida:
Eleanor of Castile (1st wife of King Edward I of England), Jacquette de
Luxembourg, and Margaret of France (2nd wife of King Edward I of
England).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< Relevant to this subject, readers may want to refer back to the
Roger LeBlanc
Hans for not checking his link in the earlier post. I didn't realize
there might be an interesting angle for me until Count Godefroy was
mentioned by Peter.
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart
"Roger LeBlanc" <lebl...@mts.net> wrote in message
news:452BC8A0...@mts.net...
There was no interim, sources relate that Godefroy succeeded on Henri's
accidental death at Tournai in 1095.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:c5b.354382...@aol.com...
There appears to be a typo in your online source - Gozelo died on 19 April
1044.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:bf6.6bb2ce...@aol.com...
This is not a correct understanding of my point - I am talking about the
particular circumstances of this family. Henri's widow Gertrude was
remarried to Duke Thierry of Upper Lorraine, and if we are to suppose that
he later chose to marry her daughter to his son & heir we must assume that
this was because the bride was considered a worthwhile match. A disinherited
niece of a neighbouring magnate would probably have been more a liability
than an asset, and a waste of Simon's propects from a better arrangement,
unless there was an intention to seek restitution of her rights, or at least
substantial reparations. However, this evidently did not happen.
The likeliest fate of Henri's daughters would have been the cloister,
although one of them is reported later to have married and left descendants.
A less prominent husband than Simon, from a less ambitious family, would
seem more plausible to me.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Paul Anen: Adêle de Louvain épouse de Simon 1 duc de Lorraine. ln:
Intermédiaire des généalogistes 1961, pg. 61.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah