Norman genealogy
Michelle.Mu...@ccmail.team400.ie
1) Does anyone know of descendants of Rainald, Earl of Cornwall,
bastard son of Henry I, and his wife Beatrice?
2) Did Henry II's two younger brothers, Geoffrey and William, have any
heirs? Also, did he have a sister Eleanor who married Prince Davydd of
Wales, son of Owain Gwynedd? Would this not have been an extremely low
match for the sister of the all-powerful Henry II of England,
Normandy, Anjou and Aquitaine/Poitou?
3) What is the relationship between Thibault, elder brother of King
Stephen and Count of Champagne and Blois; and the husbands of Eleanor
of Aquitaine's two daughters by King Louis VII of France: Marie
married a Count of Champagne and Alix married a Count of Blois.
4) Did Constance, daughter of William the Conqueror, marry and have
descendants?
5) Was Matilda of Boulogne, wife of King Stephen, the only child of
her father Eustace Count of Boulogne and Mary of Scotland? What
happened to the county of Boulogne after Stephen's death: did Eustace
succeed to the title or did it revert to the English or French crowns?
6) Does anyone have any further information on Henry Holy Roman
Emperor, first husband of the Empress Matilda e.g. his first wife,
children and who succeeded him.
Sorry to pile so many questions into one mail, but I hope someone can
help me with the above,
thanks,
Michelle
John Carmi Parsons
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie wrote:
> 2) Did Henry II's two younger brothers, Geoffrey and William, have any
> heirs? Also, did he have a sister Eleanor who married Prince Davydd of
> Wales, son of Owain Gwynedd? Would this not have been an extremely low
> match for the sister of the all-powerful Henry II of England,
> Normandy, Anjou and Aquitaine/Poitou?
Neither Geoffrey nor William ever married. William wanted to marry the widow
of King Stephen's son William (d. 1159) but Archbishop Becket forbade the
marriage because the two Williams were second cousins. William Plantagenet
supposedly died of grief because he could not marry the object of his
affections. William is sometimes stated to have had an out-of-wedlock
daughter, but the assertion rests on no reliable evidence whatever.
Henry II did marry a half-sister to a Welsh prince, but her name was Emma
and she was the daughter of Count Geoffrey of Anjou by an unknown mistress.
Emma married first Guy, sire de Laval in Brittany, and then the Welsh prince.
I believe both marriages produced issue--certainly the Laval union did.
> 3) What is the relationship between Thibault, elder brother of King
> Stephen and Count of Champagne and Blois; and the husbands of Eleanor
> of Aquitaine's two daughters by King Louis VII of France: Marie
> married a Count of Champagne and Alix married a Count of Blois.
Louis VII's sons-in-law were Thibaut's sons by Matilda of Carinthia.
> 4) Did Constance, daughter of William the Conqueror, marry and have
> descendants?
She married Alain, duke of Brittany in 1086 but died in 1090 without any
children who lived long enough to leave any trace of themselves on the
historical record.
> 5) Was Matilda of Boulogne, wife of King Stephen, the only child of
> her father Eustace Count of Boulogne and Mary of Scotland? What
> happened to the county of Boulogne after Stephen's death: did Eustace
> succeed to the title or did it revert to the English or French crowns?
Eustace did not survive Stephen. Stephen's younger son William (mentioned
above) inherited the county of Boulogne but died childless in 1159. The only
other surviving child of Stephen and Matilda of Boulogne, Mary, who had spent
most of her early life flitting from one convent to another, either ran away
from, or was abducted from, her current convent in 1159 or 1160 and married
(her alleged abductor) Matthew of Alsace, a younger brother of Count Philip of
Flanders. They lived together for about 10 yrs and produced 2 daughters before
ecclesiastical pressure forced them to separate and Mary returned to the
religious life. Matthew died in 1173, Mary in 1183. Their elder daughter
married 4 times but her issue became extinct before the middle of the 13th
century. The younger married (as his first wife) Henry I, duke of Brabant, and
their issue continued the lineage of the counts of Boulogne.
> 6) Does anyone have any further information on Henry Holy Roman
> Emperor, first husband of the Empress Matilda e.g. his first wife,
> children and who succeeded him.
ES (Ysenburg-Buedingen/Freytag von Loringhoven) shows only one marriage for
Henry V, that to Matilda of England/Normandy, celebrated in 1114. The marriage
is usually said to have been barren, but Marjorie Chibnall's recent study of
Matilda's life refers to the chronicle of Herman of Tournai, which indicates
that the couple had at least one child who must have died very young. Henry V
was succeeded by Lothar, duke of Saxony and count of Supplinburg (Lothar II,
1075-1137). Lothar was not Henry V's near relative; his election represented a
re-assertion of German nobles' right to elect a king, as against the dynastic
principle. During Lothar's reign Henry V's sister's son, Conrad of Swabia/
Hohenstaufen, was elected anti-king (1127), and was elected king (Conrad III)
in 1138. At Conrad's death in 1152 his sons were too young to be considered
for the throne, and his nephew Frederick of Hohenstaufen (Barbarossa) was
elected to succeed Conrad.
John Parsons
John Steele Gordon
> Just a few more questions on the time around King Stephen's reign.....
>
> 1) Does anyone know of descendants of Rainald, Earl of Cornwall,
> bastard son of Henry I, and his wife Beatrice?
I wouldn't know about any descendants by a wife named Beatrice, but he had
descendants by his wife Mabel, daughter and heiress of William Fitz Richard of
Cardinham, co. Cornwall. The Seymour family is descended from this marriage, as
are several million others.
See Paul C. Reed's "The Royal Descent of the Bernard, Corderoy, and Ironmonger
Families of Virginia Through the Seymour Family" in TAG, Vol 73, No. 4 (Oct.
1998).
John Steele Gordon
Dcrdcr4
in the Pipe Rolls around the time that Emme married David ap Owain, prince of
North Wales. That suggests to me that the sister was probabably living at
Court with her brother the King. If so, I would assume the sister was
legitimate. There are charters in existence which refer to her as the King's
sister. And, yes, Emme and her husband, David, the Welsh prince, have
descendants, although this doesn't seem to be commonly known. As I recall,
Emme held the manor of Ellesmere, Shropshire as her maritagium as gift of her
brother, King Henry II. I presume she was legitimate.
Incidentally, the name in this time period was Emme, not Emma. Emma is the
Latin form. It remained Emme down through around 1625 at least.. Since we
don't refer to the men by their Latin forms, I don't believe we should treat
the women any differently.
Leo van de Pas
Dafydd I, Prince of Gwynedd, disposses by his nephew Llywelyn ap Iorwerth
1194, retired to England 1198, married summer 1174, Emma, widow of Guy,
Sire de Laval, and natural daughter of Geoffrey, Count of Anjou (see
footnote page 194), and died circa May 1203, leaving issue, Owain and a
daughter.
Page 194: It is sometimes stated that Emma, the sister of King Henry II who
married ante Michaelmas 1174, Dafydd I, Prince of Gwynedd, was daughter of
the Empress Matilda, but it seems more likely that she was an illegitimate
daughter of Geoffroy V, Count of Anjou, and had been married 1st to Guy,
Sire de Laval.
But then ES Band XIV page 135, Guy IV Sire de Laval, died circa 1130/1142,
he married Emma 1142/1152 daughter of Henry I, King of England, by Mathilde
de de Meulan.
But then ES Band II page 82 gives Henry II a full legitimate
sister, Emma, married only to Guy V de Laval, who died December 1185. And
so back to Volume XIV page 135
Guy IV aforementioned and Emma daughter of Henry I, had a son, Guy V
married (1) Agathe (2) Emma 1180/1208, daughter of Reinald, Earl of
Cornwall, bastard of Henry I.
It all looks like a mess to me. Does anyone have better information?
Leo van de Pas