Cheshire Families: Arderne, Stanley, Bredbury
Sutliff
and further document some ancestral families.
Have found another problematic identity with regard to the Stanleys of
Hooton. This time it is Blanche de Arderne wife of William Stanley of Hooton
(d.v.p. 1425-1428).
Ormerod II:416 shows Blanche as daughter of Sir John Arderne of Aldford,
widow 7 Henry 6 (1428).
Visitation of Cheshire 1580 places Blanche as sister of Hugh Arderne of
Hawarden and daughter of Sir John Arderne (heir of his brothers Walter and
Thomas) and sons of Sir John Arderne of Hawarden al's Harden.
Ormerod II:85-6 (Corrections III:899) and III:566 Arderne pedigrees do not
show Blanche (nor a Walter in any generation) and suggests the VC 1580 has
the descent wrong to Hugh de Arderne. Ormerod shows this as:
Sir John Arderne of Aldford and Alvanley - Alice Venables (first wife)
\
Peter Arderne - Cecily de Bredbury
\
Hugh Arderne of Harden and Alvanley - (1) Agnes de Hulme (2) Cecily de Hyde
This is problematic as I don't see any way for Blanche to be daughter of
Peter de Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury. Their marriage settlement was 5
Edward III (1331) and Peter was age 22 in 23 Edward III (1349, thus he was
born about 1327). Cecily would thus be born circa 1328 as apparently both
were children.
Blanche was mother of son William was age 23 in 1427 (6 Henry VI) and
married in 14/15 Henry VI (1435-7) to Mary Savage. Her daughters included
Elizabeth married by dispensation to Thomas Poole of Poole in 1425 and
Katherine married before 1427 to Ralph Arderne of Harden and Alvanley. This
Ralph was son of Hugh, Blanche's alleged brother.
If Blanche was born near 1400, it would seem impossible for her to be
daughter of Peter de Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury born before 1330. Has
Ormerod omitted a generation between Peter-Cecily and Hugh? Anyone have the
correct parentage for Blanche?
Thanks for any help.
Henry Sutliff
Reedpcgen
>Thanks for any help.
>
>Henry Sutliff
The stanley family was one of those worked on by a careful researcher for the
Medieval Families Identification Unit. If there is informatin on the IGI for
this family which gives the submitter as Medieval Families, it is probably
accurate. I think Earwaker has the correct information on these Stanleys and
Ardernes in his History of East Cheshire. Do you have access to that?
Paul
Hal Bradley
living 4 Hen. VI (1425/6). However, Peter Stanley says Sir William was at
the Battle of Agincourt in 1415 and probably died of wounds in 1417, for
"in 1417 he appointed John Hope and Robert Savage to receive the wages due
to him for the time when he was with the King 'At bellum de Agyncourt.'"
Yet, he never collected them. (House of Stanley, p. 65) Sir William
Stanley was born c. 1380 and certainly married by 1402, but possibly as
early as 1399. I estimate their 5 children born between 1402 and 1412.
Thus Blanche Arderne could easily be born as early as 1472.
His son William that married Mary Savage was born c. 1400/1406. Mary was
born c. 1404. Stanley, Peter Edmund, "The House of Stanley: The History of
an English Family from the 12th Century" (Edinburgh ; Durham [N.C.] USA:
Pentland Press, 1998), p. 65 indicates that the marriage between William
Stanley and Mary Savage occurred 15 Dec 1424. This was the same day
Blanche, widow, granted the Manor of Stanleigh in Staffordshire and lands
in Chorlton and Le Moels, both in the Wirral, to her only son William.
William and Mary's son William could not have been born later than 1425,
so this was not a child marriage.
Hal Bradley
Sutliff wrote:
> Am presently working my way through Ormerod's 3 volumes trying to
> reconcile and further document some ancestral families.
>
>
> If Blanche was born near 1400, it would seem impossible for her to be
> daughter of Peter de Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury born before 1330.
> Has Ormerod omitted a generation between Peter-Cecily and Hugh? Anyone
> have the correct parentage for Blanche?
>
Sutliff
"Hal Bradley" <hwbr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B9E1D58...@earthlink.net...
Thanks for the reply, however if I understand you correctly I must
respectfully disagree with you. I find Peter Edmund Stanley's book to be an
awfully unreliable source. It is full of errors and without any
documentation other than a generalized bibliography is hardly worth the
paper it is printed on. Others have previously pointed out some of these
errors; some glaring. See archives for discussion of his error in conclusion
that the wife of John Stanley (d. 1346) was Emma de Lathom. See also p. 125
where he identifies wife of Sir John Stanley of Lathom (d. 1437) as Isabel,
daughter of Robert Harrington of Hornby, Lancs. then on p. 125 he identifies
her as Isabel, daughter of Sir John Harington of Farleton, Lancs. See
archive for discussion that she was daughter of Sir Nicholas Harington of
Farleton (although HOP [1386] IV:455-8 identifies her as daughter of Sir
John Harington of Hornby, how's that for confusion!) Peter Stanley's
placement of Agnes de Litherland as wife of William de Stanley of Storeton
(d. 1398) disagrees with CP XII-1:247, although it is clear CP is not
satisfied with certain identification of Alice Massey of Timperley as
William's wife. However, Alice de Massey of Timperley does appear in Massey
pedigree in Ormerod II:365 as wife of William.
Even if William Stanley married Blanche in 1402 as Peter Stanley states,
your placement of Blanche's birthdate as early as 1372 (I guess this is what
you intended ?), is unrealistic, particularly as Peter Stanley gives William
an exact birthdate of 1387 (p. 64) , not c. 1380 as you state. I have
significant problems with Peter Stanley's version of the Stanleys of Hooton.
Placement of five Williams born 1368, 1387, 1406, 1425 and 1439 really
troubles me, most particularly the William who was a father at 14. Peter
Stanley is clearly going by the placement of Williams in the Visitation of
Cheshire 1580 and although he quotes Ormerod as a source, the latter
concluded that there were only four Williams, one married to both Mary
Savage and Alice de Hoghton. This would eliminate the William born 1425 and
make the one born 1406 as father of the one born 1439.
Consequently I fail to see your point that "William and Mary's son William
could not have been born later than 1425 so this is not a child marriage." I
am sorry to have trouble understanding your post, but if Peter Stanley is
correct then Mary Savage and William Stanley married on December 15, 1424.
Their son could not have been born BEFORE 1425 (unless illegitimate) nor
after 1425 or the chronology falls apart. The 1425 date is clearly arbitrary
as it is the only possible date for a son of William born 1425 to be father
of a William to be born in 1439. To make him a father at 14 is clearly
problematic, but the only possibility under Peter Stanley's chronology.
Ormerod does a better job than I as to why this is a problem and why the
William born 1406 was identical with the one born 1425 (II:413).
My reference to a child marriage was for Peter de Arderne and Cecily de
Bredbuty, not any of the Stanleys. Their marriage in 1331 makes it
impossible/unlikely that they were parents of Blanche born circa 1387 or
later.
I do not mean for this post to be contrary, but I am really having
difficulty in understanding what you are trying to say. It is clear from my
citations that there is conflict with some of the sources, but I honestly
believe Peter Stanley's book to be faulty and without specific citations to
be unreliable. That a book published in 1998 doesn't even have an index is
unbelievably surprising. I find it very, very disappointing.
Sorry,
Henry Sutliff
Sutliff
reconcile and further document some ancestral families.
Have found another problematic identity with regard to the Stanleys of
Hooton. This time it is Blanche de Arderne wife of William Stanley of
Hooton (d.v.p. 1425-1428).
Ormerod II:416 shows Blanche as daughter of Sir John Arderne of
Aldford, widow 7 Henry 6 (1428).
Visitation of Cheshire 1580 places Blanche as sister of Hugh Arderne
of Hawarden and daughter of Sir John Arderne (heir of his brothers
Walter and Thomas) and sons of Sir John Arderne of Hawarden al's
Harden.
Ormerod II:85-6 (Corrections III:899) and III:566 Arderne pedigrees do
not show Blanche (nor a Walter in any generation) and suggests the VC
1580 has the descent wrong to Hugh de Arderne. Ormerod shows this as:
Sir John Arderne of Aldford and Alvanley - Alice Venables (first wife)
\
Peter Arderne - Cecily de Bredbury
\
Hugh Arderne of Harden and Alvanley - (1) Agnes de Hulme (2) Cecily de
Hyde
This is problematic as I don't see any way for Blanche to be daughter
of Peter de Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury. Their marriage settlement
was 5 Edward III (1331) and Peter was age 22 in 23 Edward III (1349,
thus he was born about 1327). Cecily would thus be born circa 1328 as
apparently both were children.
Blanche was mother of son William was age 23 in 1427 (6 Henry VI) and
married in 14/15 Henry VI (1435-7) to Mary Savage. Her daughters
included Elizabeth married by dispensation to Thomas Poole of Poole in
1425 and Katherine married before 1427 to Ralph Arderne of Harden and
Alvanley. This Ralph was son of Hugh, Blanche's alleged brother.
If Blanche was born near 1400, it would seem impossible for her to be
Reedpcgen
de Arderne, wife of William Stanley of Hooton (citing "Visit. of Chesh. 1566")
was daughter of Peter de Arderne of Alvanley, and of Harden jure uxoris, b.
1327, aged 22 in 1349, d. by 1378-9, by his wife Cicely, daughter and heiress
of Adam de Bredbury. Blanche is given as sister of Hugh de Ardenrne, liv. 1385
and 1419, d. before 1423.
Unfortunately it does not look like Earwaker looked at this family as closely
as you have.
Paul
Hal Bradley
(m. Blanche Arderne), I estimate was born c. 1380, not 1387, as Peter Stanley
claims. Upon closer examination, he may have been born earlier. I have a copy of
Ormerod's chart of Stanley's as found in II:230. It is annotated by Douglas
Richardson, in preparation for the upcoming Plantagenet Ancestry book. He has a
note estimating William Stanley, husband of Mary Savage as born c. 1400. This
would fit in with my earlier posting re: Mary Savage as daughter of Sir John
Savage of Clifton and Maud de Swynnerton. Mary would have been born c. 1404. If
this William subsequently married Alicia de Houghton, it would not affect the
chronology. The only question would be which wife was the mother of William's
son William who married 1) Margaret Bromley and 2) Agnes Grosvenor. (Since
William was the oldest son, the chronology seems to favor Mary Savage.)
If William Stanley was b. c. 1400, then his mother Blanche Arderne could easily
be born c. 1370, which would fit the identification of Blanche as daughter Peter
de Arderne and Cicely de Bredbury ( see Earwaker, "History of East Cheshire,"
p. 474). Also, your previous post re: Blanche as sister of Hugh de Arderne,
living 1385, and discussion of Arderne family.
I hope that was clearer. I was not relying on Peter Stanley for my conclusions.
Sorry I brought him up. Thank you for the further references to Ormerod and his
corrections.
Hal Bradley
Sutliff wrote:
> Comments below:
>
> "Hal Bradley" <hwbr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3B9E1D58...@earthlink.net...
> > Ormerod 2:230 indicates Sir William Stanley (m. Blanche Arderne) was
> > living 4 Hen. VI (1425/6). However, Peter Stanley says Sir William was at
> > the Battle of Agincourt in 1415 and probably died of wounds in 1417, for
> > "in 1417 he appointed John Hope and Robert Savage to receive the wages due
> > to him for the time when he was with the King 'At bellum de Agyncourt.'"
> > Yet, he never collected them. (House of Stanley, p. 65) Sir William
> > Stanley was born c. 1380 and certainly married by 1402, but possibly as
> > early as 1399. I estimate their 5 children born between 1402 and 1412.
> > Thus Blanche Arderne could easily be born as early as 1472.
> >
> > His son William that married Mary Savage was born c. 1400/1406. Mary was
> > born c. 1404. Stanley, Peter Edmund, "The House of Stanley: The History of
> > an English Family from the 12th Century" (Edinburgh ; Durham [N.C.] USA:
> > Pentland Press, 1998), p. 65 indicates that the marriage between William
> > Stanley and Mary Savage occurred 15 Dec 1424. This was the same day
> > Blanche, widow, granted the Manor of Stanleigh in Staffordshire and lands
> > in Chorlton and Le Moels, both in the Wirral, to her only son William.
> > William and Mary's son William could not have been born later than 1425,
> > so this was not a child marriage.
> >
> > Hal Bradley
> > Sutliff wrote:
> >
> > > Am presently working my way through Ormerod's 3 volumes trying to
> > > reconcile and further document some ancestral families.
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > If Blanche was born near 1400, it would seem impossible for her to be
> > > daughter of Peter de Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury born before 1330.
> > > Has Ormerod omitted a generation between Peter-Cecily and Hugh? Anyone
> > > have the correct parentage for Blanche?
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help.
> > >
> > > Henry Sutliff
> >
> >
>