Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister

206 views
Skip to first unread message

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 22, 2010, 12:44:43 PM4/22/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Recent polls place Old Westminster and Cambridge graduate, Nick Clegg, the 43-year-old leader of the Liberal Democrats, neck and neck with Old Etonian and Oxford graduate, Tory leader David Cameron (descendant of William IV, among others), also 43, to be the next Prime Minister of the U.K.

Leo's excellent database includes both of Nick Clegg's parents, but so far omits him, his Spanish wife, and three children. Tracking his mother's (Genealogics ID I00315716) Dutch ancestry in genealogics, I see that some of his ancestry has been traced into the Middle Ages.

I wonder if anyone knows more about his aristocratic Russian ancestry alluded to in his wikipedia entry?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Clegg

Cheers,

Richard

Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)



_________________________________________________________________
Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 22, 2010, 2:08:07 PM4/22/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
there is no great and ready promise of elevated medieval ancestry in
ukraine, because the Zakrevsky were not exactly of the highest nobility.

Still, this travel and tourist piece
http://www.primetour.ua/en/excursions/weekend/Sobyitie-sentyabrya--Osennee-zoloto.html
informs about the parents and family of Ignati Platonovich Zakrevsky,
Clegg's great-great-grandfather

Dina Grozev

unread,
Apr 22, 2010, 2:21:40 PM4/22/10
to Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
>
>
> I wonder if anyone knows more about his aristocratic Russian ancestry
> alluded to in his wikipedia entry?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Clegg
>
>
>
>
>
That information is in the Russian language genealogy page provided in the
wiki footnotes. (#3) It appears to be forum, so be prepared to read with a
critical eye.

Ignaty Zakrevsky <http://baza.vgd.ru/1/42293/10.htm?o=&>

Dina

wjhonson

unread,
Apr 22, 2010, 5:33:53 PM4/22/10
to
On Apr 22, 9:44 am, "Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski"

<leliw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Recent polls place Old Westminster and Cambridge graduate, Nick Clegg, the 43-year-old leader of the Liberal Democrats, neck and neck with Old Etonian and Oxford graduate, Tory leader David Cameron (descendant of William IV, among others), also 43, to be the next Prime Minister of the U.K.
>
> Leo's excellent database includes both of Nick Clegg's parents, but so far omits him, his Spanish wife, and three children. Tracking his mother's (Genealogics ID I00315716) Dutch ancestry in genealogics, I see that some of his ancestry has been traced into the Middle Ages.
>
> I wonder if anyone knows more about his aristocratic Russian ancestry alluded to in his wikipedia entry?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Clegg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard
>
> Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
>

I think there is quite a lot of interest behind his English ancestors
as well

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyhistory/3355395/Family-detective-Nick-Clegg.html

The person who wrote the above pretends to be a family historian, but
apparently doesn't understand his craft too well, giving only the most
superficial analysis.

I think if we were to combine our forces we could do a much better job
of it.

Will


Leo

unread,
Apr 22, 2010, 6:43:12 PM4/22/10
to Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Richard,
Many thanks for this. I have entered him into my system and did a quick
count. At the moment I have 6,209 ancestors for him in my system. He is a
descendant of Edward I, king of England (among emperors and other kings)
which makes him a "Plantagenet Cousin" and a descendant of William the
Conqueror and Charlemagne.

A quick check makes him at least a 16th cousin of David Cameron, both being
descended from Johann V, count of Nassau-Dillenburg.

Again many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski" <leli...@hotmail.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 2:44 AM
Subject: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next
PrimeMinister


>
> Recent polls place Old Westminster and Cambridge graduate, Nick Clegg, the
> 43-year-old leader of the Liberal Democrats, neck and neck with Old
> Etonian and Oxford graduate, Tory leader David Cameron (descendant of
> William IV, among others), also 43, to be the next Prime Minister of the
> U.K.
>
> Leo's excellent database includes both of Nick Clegg's parents, but so far
> omits him, his Spanish wife, and three children. Tracking his mother's
> (Genealogics ID I00315716) Dutch ancestry in genealogics, I see that some
> of his ancestry has been traced into the Middle Ages.
>
> I wonder if anyone knows more about his aristocratic Russian ancestry
> alluded to in his wikipedia entry?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Clegg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard
>
> Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
>
>
>

> _________________________________________________________________
> Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile!
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464
>

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Renia

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 3:30:59 AM4/23/10
to


The grandfather of Nick Clegg, according to the article, was Hugh
Anthony Clegg.

In 1911, Hugh Anthony Clegg was aged 10 and a scholar at his father's
boys' school at North Parade, Lowestoft, Mutford, Suffolk. He was born
at St Ive's, Cambridgeshire.

The other children to the family were:
John Ambrose Clegg, age 13, scholar at the school
Mary Getrude Clegg, age 12, scholar at the school
Margaret Aldyth Clegg, age 7
Bernard Augustine Clegg, age 4
Veronica Joan Clegg, age 3

Hugh's mother was Gertrude Clegg, age 43, born in Hull, Yorkshire. His
father was John Clegg, aged 41 and born in Leeds, Yorkshire. He was
schoolmaster and employer of a private school, and Clergyman of the
Established Church.

In 1901, the family was at the same place. John was then aged 32, and a
Clergyman at the same school, which had a different schoolmaster. (This
John Clegg doesn't appear in Crockford's.)
Gertrude was 33, and the children were:
Arnold B Clegg, aged 5, born in Forest Hill, Surrey
John A Clegg, aged 3, born St Ives, Cambridgeshire
Hugh A Clegg, aged 10 months, born St Ives

In 1891, John Clegg was an unmarried 22-year-old schoolteacher living
with his family at 73 Spring Street in Myton, Hull.
His father was Simeon Clegg, aged 46, an engineer's clerk who was born
in Adwalton, Yorkshire. His (step)mother was Emma, aged 48, who was born
at Brandsburton, Yorkshire. His brother was Hardy Clegg, aged 16, a
chemist's apprentice who was born in Wellington Square in
Northumberland. Living with the family was Simeon's stepson, Robert
Ward, aged 15, a corn merchant's clerk who was born in Hull.

In 1881, Simeon Clegg was a 36-year-old engineer's clerk living at 6 Ark
Terrace, Myton, Hull, Yorkshire. His wife was Mary, aged 35, who was
born in Holbeck, Yorkshire. John was then a 12-year-old scholar who was
born in New Wortley, Yorkshire. Simeon's son, Harry B Clegg was then a
6-year-old scholar who was born in Wellington Square in Northumberland
and their daughter, Mary A Clegg, was aged 1 and born in Hull.

In 1871, Simeon and Mary Clegg were living at 3 Grange Street in Wortley
in Leeds. Simeon was a butcher aged 26 who was born in Adwalton,
Yorkshire and Mary was aged 26 and born in Holbeck (Leeds), Yorkshire.

In 1861, Simeon Clegg was living with his parents at Birstall Road in
Adwalton in Drighlington in Yorkshire. He was then aged 16 and a railway
porter. His siblings were born in Adwalton and they were: Elizabeth aged
19 and unmarried and Sidney aged 13 and a scholar. His father, John
Clegg was then aged 57 and a grocer and master joiner who was born in
Adwalton. His mother was Martha, aged 58, also from Adwalton. Living
with the family was granddaughter, Mary E Clegg, a 5-year-old scholar
born in Adwalton.

In 1851, the family was in Adwalton, where they were all born. John
Clegg was a joiner and cabinet maker aged 45. Martha, his wife, was aged
44. The children were: Jowett(?) Townsend (not Clegg), a cordwainder
aged 19; Sally Clegg aged 15 and a winder; Elizabeth Clegg, aged 9 who
was at home; Simeon Clegg, aged 6 and a scholar; Sidney Clegg, aged 8
and a scholar.

In 1841, the family was also at Adwalton, Drighlington, Birstall,
Yorkshire. John was aged 30 and a joiner. Martha was aged 30. Phoebe
Cleg was aged 8. Sally Clegg was aged 6. Jowett Townsend was aged 9. All
were born in Yorkshire.

Simeon Clegg was still living in Adwalton in 1901 at 87 Day Street. He
was aged 57 and a butcher and cattle dealer from Adwalton, who was
stated to be unmarried. He was living with Charles Mead, a 65-year-old
portrait painter from Hull.

Simeon Clegg's death was registered in the Sculcoates area of Hull in
the September quarter, 1903, when he was aged 59. His marriage to Mary
Ward was registered in the September quarter, 1884, in the Hull
registration district. (General Register Office index of marriages and
deaths, searchable at Ancestry.com)

Simeon Clegg was baptised on 28th July, 1844 at Birstall, Yorkshire, The
son of John Clegg and Martha. Elizabeth Clegg was baptised the same day
to the same couple. (Bishop's Transcript at FamilySearch.com) This was a
hotbed of Cleggs.

A John Clegg was baptised 23rd October, at Adwalton, Birstall,
Yorkshire, (Bishop's Transcript in FamilySearch) son of Christopher
Clegg and Martha Wood who were married at Birstall 23rd Jun 1799. (IGI,
member submission) In 1841, Christopher Clegg, aged 60, was living in
Adwalton, next door to a different John Clegg, aged 44, which is not the
same John Clegg, ancestor to Nicholas.

Another John Clegg was baptised 29th August, 1811 at Birstall,
Yorkshire, son of William and Mary, who may be the ancestor of Nick.
(IGI, member submission)

There are too many computations of John Cleggs to make any assumptions
in this brief search on the family.

So
John Clegg (bc 1806) = Martha
Simeon Clegg (bapt 1844) = (1) Emma (2)Mary Ward (m 1884)
John Clegg (bc 1869) = Gertrude Wilson
Hugh Anthony Clegg (b 1900) = Kira Engelhardt (m 1932)
Nicholas Clegg = Eulalie Hermance van den Wall Bake
Nicholas Clegg (b 1967) =


Hovite

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 8:10:25 AM4/23/10
to
Clegg’s party is likely to come third in number of seats. The winner
(in terms of seats) will be either Brown or Cameron.

The history of the Brown family was published in the Daily Mail about
a century ago, in article called “Where the Browns came from” by “Sir
Charles Clifton-Browne” (see J. H. Round, “Peerage and Pedigree”,
volume 2, page 135).

As for Cameron, George F. Black (“The Surnames of Scotland”, page 128)
notes a David de Cambrun mentioned in 1266.

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 8:13:02 AM4/23/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dr H A Clegg's obituary is in:
British Medical Journal, number published on 16 July 1983

Hugh Anthony Clegg was born on 10 June 1900
and died on 6 July 1983

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 9:45:15 AM4/23/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
although this is still inconclusive,
there existed at least three different families von Engelhardt with some
connection to Baltic nobility

about the baronial house established by the
general, baron Niklas Henrikki (von) Engelhardt, governor of Viipuri
province in Imperial Old Finland
Niklas Henrikki attestedly received the baronial title from the Holy Roman
Emperor
one of his daughters was baroness Natalie von Engelhardt (b 13.10.1773
Viipuri, d 6.12.1829 Helsinki) who became by marriage Countess Steinheil,
and had a certain impact in history of Finland

an opus authored by said baron:
Engelhardt, Nikolai Henrik: Die Beschreibung des Russisch Käyserlichen
Gouvernements von Wiburg (1767)

-----------------------------------

Livonia
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Band_bsb00000558.html

Courland
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Band_bsb00000602.html

Estonia
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Blatt_bsb00000600,00078.html?prozent=

Matthew Connolly

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 10:00:13 AM4/23/10
to
Incidentally, the Lib-Dem Treasury spokesman Vince Cable is stated to
be a descendant of Sir Thomas More, according to this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/liberaldemocrats/1576602/Vince-Cable-and-the-performance-of-politics.html

although no further details of the descent are given.

John Dobson

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 11:02:14 AM4/23/10
to Hovite, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but all three candidates
are featured in today's issue of the Find My Past newsletter, at
http://dreammail.edgesuite.net/FindMyPast/newsletter230410.html . See
the article "The family history of the political party leaders," which
starts about 1/4 of the way down the page.

Yours Sincerely,
John Blythe Dobson


>>> Hovite <paulv...@gmail.com> 23-Apr-10 7:10:25 AM >>>

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 12:40:52 PM4/23/10
to mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Is this idea that Kira was a "Baroness" accurate?
I was just seeing her name mentioned in a book index and it does not call
her a Baroness there.

Will

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 1:33:41 PM4/23/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
we cannot be sure even what it was in Russia. technically.

There was a disturbing custom that old noble families in certain dominions
under Russian empire, claimed the baronial rank without being actually ever
granted it explicitly. Then, the imperial senate issued a big number of
confirmations of that right to many such families.
Even this did not obstacle those nobles who didn't bother to acquire a
confirmation, still to use that honorific.
It was wide in the 1800s.

I know for a fact that the Courland branches, Livonian branches, and
Estonian branches (or possibly to some parts, separate dynasties) of the von
Engelhardt, received en masse a confirmation from senate for baronial rank
in mid-1800s.
But I haven't found Kira in genealogy books published by the knighthood's
baltic institutions, as member of any of those families. However, these
genealogies are not totally complete.... though they are pretty good.
So, if she (and her father) belonged to any of those lineages, there's even
a formal justification that they were barons.

Then, the totally separate general, governor Niklas Henrikki von Engelhardt
received the Reichsfreiherr title from HRE. His agnatic descent would have
that.

Then, there's a 'half-Polish' lineage of Engelhardt, Engelgart, near Belarus
border regions - they were kinsmen of Potemkin.
They could arguably also be barons, already knowing that the had similar
type of background which entitled many other families to such senate
recognition....
Unfortunately, the genealogy I have of them, is obviously incomplete as to
less prominent but agnatic branches in the 1800s, it being focused on the
very important nieces of Potemkin....


so, she could very well be entitled to that rank, but I haven't found her
paternal antecedents.

Her mother was a noblewoman from Ukraine.

There is no essential doubt that her Engelhardt father were a real nobleman
by birthright.
actually, already his marriage with that Ukrainian noblewoman, is a sort of
signal that he was noble.


The Ukrainian noblewoman's sister (another Ukrainian noblewoman) married
firstly an Estonian count, then an Estonian baron.
Kira herself os mentioned as living in Estonia in her youth. But I do not
know whether this would come from Kira being with her aunt there, or if
Kira's father was of Estonian family too.


2010/4/23 <WJho...@aol.com>

> Is this idea that Kira was a "Baroness" accurate?
>

> Will
>

PDel...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 3:50:32 PM4/23/10
to mqs...@gmail.com, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Wouldn't it be better to say that she was of a baronial family? I know
quite a few 'real' Italian nobles who have, on their calling cards, N X de'
baroni de 'Castelnuovo' which is quite acceptable know that nowadays it is
quite unacceptable to infer that someone has a honorific title (although it
widely used), but if this 'lady' were called a baroness it is because she was
of a baronial family!

Pg

(PG de Loriol)

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 5:19:25 PM4/23/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
nope, Loriol.

these are NOT Italian families.

If and when a Russian or Baltic noble family has a baronial rank, then as a
rule, their all sons (not only the eldest) are entitled to the title of
baron, and all daughters are entitled to the honorific baroness.
Just like generally, German baronial families.

I am aware that those who know limitedly things, such as being aware only of
british usages, do not understand that in many other countries, all the
children have the honorific.
And I am aware that the relatively exceptional situation of some italian
titles, gets dragged unwarrantedly, as example when titles of totally other
countries are talked about.
However, those are cardinal mistakes in this context.


for edification of those who think they know the italian system:
actually, IF the italian family's title comes from Holy Roman Empire, then
all members of the agnatic family are entitled to that honorific, not only
the eldest son.
But italians often use even these HRE titles in accordance with the more
limited italian custom, although they would not need to be so limited.


2010/4/23 <PDel...@aol.com>

> Wouldn't it be better to say that she was of a baronial family?
>

> nowadays it is quite unacceptable to infer that someone has a honorific


> title (although it widely used),
>


> (PG de Loriol)
>

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 23, 2010, 10:59:01 PM4/23/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Ancestry of Nick Clegg by Richard Carruthers, started 22 April 2010.

FIRST GENERATION (SUBJECT)

1. Nicholas ‘Nick’
William Peter Clegg, b. 7 Jan. 1967, Chalfont
St Giles, Bucks.

Educ.: Westminster and Robinson College,
Cambridge (B.A., Archaeology and Anthropology), University of Minnesota,
College of Europe, Bruges
(M.A. in Social Anthropology, post-grad. studies in political philosophy, and a
diploma in European Affairs [he also met his future wife there])
m. 2000m Spain, Míriam González Durantez (b. May 1968, Spain; educ. U. Valladolid,
and Bruges),
lawyer (partner, DLA Piper, international law firm), dau. of the late José
Antonio González Caviedes (b. 28 November 1938, Remondo, Segovia, Spain, d. 4
December 1996, Spain), senator (Partido Popular) for Valladolid, Spain, and his
wife, Mercedes NN Durantez, chemistry and physics teacher, secondary school,
Olmedo, Spain.
Issue: Antonio (8 in 2010), Alberto (5 in 2010), Miguel (1, b. 22 Feb. 2009, Kingston hospital), surnamed Clegg, and being brought up in their mother's faith, Roman Catholicism.

SECOND GENERATION (SUBJECT’S PARENTS)

2. Nicholas Peter Clegg, C.B.E. (2009), b. 24 May 1936, London
Educ.: Bryanston and Trinity
College, Cambridge (B.A., 1959)
Career: retired banker (see Who’s Who in British Finance,
1972, p. 126); awarded C.B.E. in 2009 New Year’s Honours list as “Founder and
Managing Trustee and Chairman, Daiwa Anglo-Japanese Foundation. For services to
UK-Japanese relations.”
3. Eulalia Hermance van den Wall Bake (see Leo van de Pas's genealogics.org, hereinafter, LvdP), b. 23 Nov.
1936, Palembang, Java, Dutch
East Indies, m. 1 Aug. 1959, Laren, Noord-Holland, The Netherlands
Career: retired teacher (special needs)
Issue: 3 s, 1 d.

THIRD GENERATION (SUBJECT’S GRANDPARENTS)

4. Dr Hugh Anthony
Clegg, C.B.E. (1966), M.A., M.D., D.Litt., F.R.C.P., editor of the British
Medical Journal (B.M.J.) for 35 years, b. 19 June 1900, St Ives, Bucks., d. 6
July 1983, London (B.M.J. obit. online; biography ODNB)(Issue 1s, see above,
and 1 dau., Jane)
Educ.: Westminster (King’s scholar in classics) and Trinity
College, Cambridge (1st Class Hons, Natural Sciences, 1922, and
B.A., later M.A.), St Bart’s (M.B., B. Chir.)
5. Baroness Kira/Kyra[i] von Engelhardt, b. 2 July 1909[ii], Russia, d. reg’d Aug. 2005, Hammersmith and Fulham R.D., London,aged 96 m. Sept. qtr 1932 , Hampstead R.D., Middlesex[iii]
6. LvdP
7. LvdP

FOURTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S GREAT-GRANDPARENTS)

8. The Rev. John Clegg, headmaster, St Ives Grammar school, Hunts. (1897-1901), curate of St Ives, Hunts. (1899-1901), headmaster, Lowestoft College, and licensed preacher, diocese of Norwich (1901-1916), rector of Shipmeadow, Suffolk, and chaplain of Wangford Union, 1916-1929, curate-in-charge, St Mark’s conventional district,Carlton Colville, Diocese of Norwich from 1929 (and continuing in 1932),addresses: 2, North Parade, Lowestoft (1908); St Mark’s Parsonage, Oulton,Broad, South Lowestoft, Suffolk (1932)  b.1868/69,
Leeds, Yorkshire[iv]/New Wortley, Yorkshire[v]
Educ.: London University (B.A., 1894), Ely Theological College (graduated,
1899).
Career: see Crockford’s Clerical Directory, 1908 (p. 280, col. 1) and 1932 (p. 245, col. 2) edns. Made a deacon 1899, and priested 1900 (by the Lord Bishop of Ely).

9. Gertrude Wilson, b. 1867-1868, Hull, East Riding, Yorkshire[vi], m.
Sept. qtr 1892, Lewisham R.D., Kent[vii]
N.B. The first census in which Gertrude appears as a Wilson is 1881, before
that it seems she may have been a Short, and her birth reg’d as Gertrude Wilson
Short, Sept.  qtr 1867, Hull, vol. 9d, p. 185. Her sister Florence appears to be identical with Florence Willson [sic] Short, visitor in the house of William Short, engine smith, age 40, born Hull, possibly her maternal uncle. She is probably the Florence W. Short whose birth was reg’d in the June qtr 1866 in Sculcoates R.D., vol. 9d, p. 361. Meanwhile, in the 1871 census of Hull, I did Jane Short, aged 28, a clothes dealer, born Hull,unmarried, and living with her widowed mother Margaret, also a clothes dealer,at 2, Davis street, Hull, along with two of Margaret’s granddaughters, Frances,14, a servant, and Gertrude, aged 4, both born in Hull. This is likely to be Gertrude with her unmarried mother and maternal grandmother.  Later, I did find the marriage of a Jane
Short to a John Wilson was reg’d Sept. qtr 1880, Hull, vol. 9d, p. 403. So there could be a scandal in the background of Gertrude Wilson, the clergyman’s wife. The likely scenario is that master mariner John Wilson, who lived with his sister Mary A.Wilson in Hull (when home from sea presumably), had at least two daughters out of wedlock with Jane Short, both of whom bore the additional name of Wilson along with Short, a naming practice I have noted elsewhere with children born outside marriage. It may be that as a sailor, John was elusive, and not always in pocket, so unwilling to marry. If John Wilson and Jane Short were indeed the parents of Gertrude and her sister Florence,then they were legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents in the eyes of Scottish law and the R.C. Church, but not under English law or canon law of the Church of England. Her baptism would appear then to have been as Gertrude Wilson Short, dau. of Jane Short, at Holy Trinity, Hull on 5 July 1868[viii].
10. Baron Arthur von Engelhardt, of Smolensk,
Russia,landowner (dau’s 1932 marr. cert).
11. Alexandra ‘Alla’ Ignatievna Zakrevskaya, 1884-1960[ix],
a twin with her sister Anna (1884-1941)(m. Vasili’i Vasilievich Kochubei, b.
1883, member of the pre-1917 Russian State Duma),
and had one elder brother Platon Ignatievich (1880-?), attaché Russian embassy,
London pre-WWI; and one younger half-sister, the Russian ‘Mata-Hari’, Maria ‘Moura’
also known as ‘Titka’[x] to her lover Maxim Gorky, also lover of
H.G. Wells, R. Bruce-Lockhart, et al. (b. 1892, m. (1) 1911, Ivan Benckendorff
(not Count), from 1912, secretary, Russian embassy, Berlin, later m. (2)(div) Baron Nikolai Budberg); Alla m. (1) ante
1909 (div.) to no. 10, noted above, m. (2) post 1912, Paris, René Moulin, m.
(3) V.I. Trubnikov, with whom she became addicted to morphine.

12. LvdP

13. LvdP

14. LvdP

15. LvdP

 

FIFTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
 

16. Simeon Clegg, engineer’s chief clerk, Hull,
East Riding, Yorks., addresses: 6, Ark terrace, Hull
(1881 c.), b. 1844, Adwalton, Yorks.[xi],
bt. 28 July 1844, Birstall, West Riding, Yorks., d. reg’d Sept. qtr 1903,
Sculcoates, East Riding, Yorks.[xii]
(m. (2) Sept. qtr 1884, Hull, R.D., East Yorks.[xiii],
Emma Matchan[xiv], widow
of Benjamin Batty Ward[xv])
17. Mary Brook, b. ca 1845-1846, Holbeck, Yorks. (1881 c.),
d. reg’d June qtr 1884, Hull R.D., East Riding, Yorks., aged 39[xvi],
m. reg’d Mar. qtr 1868, Kirkstall R.D., West Riding, Yorks.[xvii]
18. John Wilson, of Hull (ODNB), master mariner (retd, 1881
c.), of 59, Trinity Sq., Hull,
b. 1813-1814, Hull, Yorks. (1881 c.)
19. Jane Short, b. 1840-1841, Hull,
Yorks. (1881 c.), and reg’d June qtr 1841, Hull R.D., East Riding, Yorks.[xviii],m. Sept. qtr, 1880, Hull R.D., East Riding, Yorks.
22. Ignatiy Platonovich Zakrevsky, 1841-1905, attorney
general recte procurator general (Moura, p. 4), senator, Russian Imperial
Senate (married twice, 3 children from 1st marriage, 1 from 2nd)
23. NN, first wife

SIXTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS)

32. John Clegg, miner and cabinet maker (1851 c.), of
Adwalton, near Birstall, West Riding, Yorks.(1851c.), b. ca 1805-1806,
Adwalton, West Riding, Yorks.[xix],
bt. 11 Aug. 1805, Birstall, West Riding, Yorks.[xx]
33. Martha Sykes, b. ca 1806-1807, Adwalton, West Riding,
Yorks.[xxi],
m. reg’d June qtr 1841, Dewsbury R.D., West Riding, Yorks.[xxii]
38. Joseph Short, b. 1798-99, Hull, d. ante 1861 c.;
cordwainer, of 8, Unwin Court, Ed. street, Sculcoates, Hull (1851 c.), journeyman shoemaker, of  Kirkus Bldgs, Lowgate, St
Mary’s, part of Holy Trinity, Hull (1841 c.)
39. Margaret NN, b. ca 1802/3, Newcastle-on-Tyne,
Northumberland, fl. 1871 c. Hull as clothes
dealer, 2, Davis street, Hull, d. possibly reg’d Mar. qtr 1878, Hull, aged 79 (vol. 9d, p. 139)
44. Platon –ovich Zakrevsky

SEVENTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FOURTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
 
64. William Clegg[xxiii], of Heckmondwike[xxiv] chapelry, Birstall, West Riding, Yorks.

65. Martha Longley, of Robertown[xxv] (recte Roberttown chapelry, parish of Birstall, West Riding) m. 20 June 1799, St Peter’s parish church, Birstall, West Riding, Yorks.[xxvi]
88. NN Andreievich Zakrevsky

EIGHTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FIFTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)

176. Andrei Osipovich Zakrevsky, 1742-1804, director, academy of fine arts, Kiev (Moura, p. 4)
177. NN

NINTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S SIXTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)

352. Osip Lukyanovich Zakrevsky, Moura, p. 4
353. NN

[i] Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, entry for her husband, H.A. Clegg.
[ii] England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
Name: Kira Clegg Birth Date: 2 Jul 1909 Death
Registration Month/Year: Aug 2005 Age at death : 96
Registration district: Hammersmith and Fulham  County:
London Register number: HF6E District and Subdistrict: 260/1E Entry number: 35

[iii] England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005

Name: Kird [sic] Engelhardt Spouse Surname: Clegg Date
of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1932 Registration district: Hampstead Registration
county : Middlesex Volume Number: 1a Page Number: 1846 Spouse:Hugh A. Clegg

[iv] Name: John Clegg Age: 32 Estimated birth year: abt
1869 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Gertrude Gender: Male Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England Civil parish: Lowestoft Ecclesiastical
parish: Lowestoft St Margaret and St Peter County:                 Suffolk Country: England Street Address:

Occupation: Clergyman (C. of Eng.) schoolmaster Condition as to
marriage: married

Employment status: Employer (crossed out) Registration
district: Mutford Sub-registration district: Lowestoft ED, institution, or
vessel: 11 Household schedule number: 201

Household Members:         

Name Relationship to Head Age Birthplace

John Clegg Head  32
Leeds, Yorkshire

Gertrude Clegg Wife 33 Hull,
Yorkshire

Arnold B Clegg  Son 5 Surrey,
Forest Hill

John A Clegg Son 3 
Hunts, St Ives

Hugh A Clegg Son 10 months Hunts, St Ives

(additional people visitors, teachers, and scholars
omitted)

[v] 1881
census

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace
Occupation Disability

Simeon CLEGG Head M Male 36 Adwalton, York, England          Engineers Clerk    

Mary CLEGG 
Wife  M  Female 35 Holbeck, York, England                            

John CLEGG 
Son  U  Male 13 New Wortley, York, England         Scholar 
                  

Harry B. CLEGG Son 
Male   6  Willington Square,
Northumberland, England  Scholar 
          

Mary A. CLEGG Daur 
Female 1 Hull, York, England                       

Source Information:

Dwelling                6 Ark Ter

Census Place        Kingston-upon-Hull,
York, England

Family History Library Film                1342154

Public Records Office Reference       RG11

Piece / Folio          4778 / 128

Page Number        35

[vi] Ibid.

[vii]
Marriages Sep 1892

Clegg, John, Lewisham, vol. 1d, page 1815

WILSON, Gertrude, Lewisham, vol. 1d, p. 1815

[viii] IGI.
GERTRUDE WILSON SHORT Female Christening: 05 JUL 1868 Holy Trinity, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire, England
Parents: Mother: JANE SHORT Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for
the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically
by the birth or christening date. Source Information:

Batch No.:             Dates:     Source
Call No.:    Type:      Printout Call No.:                  Type:


C107482                 1842 - 1875             0990833-5               Film         6910989                  Film
        Sheet: 00

[ix] Moura:
the dangerous life of the Baroness Budberg, by Nina Nikolaevna Berberova, p.
359.

[x] The
KGB's literary archive By Vitaliĭ Shentalinskiĭ, John Crowfoot, 1995, p. 254

[xi] Private
Personal Member Tree, ancestry.com, The Clegg Family Tree: Simeon Clegg Born:
1844 in Adwalton, Yorkshire,
England
containing 7 attached records,  7
sources,  41 people in this member tree
(23 April 2010).

[xii] Deaths
Sep 1903 Clegg, Simeon, aged 59, Sculcoates, vol. 9d, p. 101

[xiii]
Marriages Sep 1884

Clegg, Simeon, Hull,
vol. 9d, p. 307

Ward Emma, Hull,
vol. 9d, p. 307

[xiv] http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=andycoates&id=I887

[xv] Ibid.

[xvi] Deaths
Jun 1884, Clegg  , Mary, aged 39, Hull, vol. 9d, p. 144

[xvii]
Marriages Mar 1868

Brook     Mary                     Kirkstall               
9b           288

Clegg      Simeon                   Kirkstall               
9b           288

[xviii]
Births Jun 1841 Short,  Jane, Hull, vol. 22, p. 395

[xix] 1851 England Census
1851

Name: John Clegg

Age: 45

Relation: Head

Spouse's name: Martha

Gender: Male

Where born: Adwalton, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Drighlington

Ecclesiastical parish: Drighlington

County/Island: Yorkshire

Country: England

Street Address: Adwalton

Occupation: Miner and Cabinet Maker

Condition as to marriage: married

Disability: -

Registration district:            Bradford

Sub-registration district:     Cleckheaton

ED, institution, or vessel:   1c

Household schedule number:            143

Household Members:         

Name  Relationship
to Head Age Occupation Birthplace

John Clegg Head  45
Miner and Cabinet Maker, Adwalton, Yorks.

Martha Clegg Wife 44 do Wife Do

Jowett Townsent                 Son
19 Cordwainer Do

Sally Clegg Dau 15 Winder Do

Elizabeth Clegg 
Dau 9 at home Do

Simeon Clegg Son 6 Scholar Do

Sidney Clegg Son 3 do Do

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2303; Folio: 361;
Page: 38; GSU roll: 87513-87514.

[xx] IGI
JOHN CLEGG Male Christening: 11 AUG 1805 Birstall, Yorkshire, England
Father: WILLIAM CLEGG Mother: MARTHA  

Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the
locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged
chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:             Dates:     Source
Call No.:    Type:      Printout Call No.:                  Type:


C108113                 1760 - 1812             0990526                  Film         6911082                  Film
        Sheet: 00

[xxi] 1851 England
Census 1851

Name: John Clegg

Age: 45

Relation: Head

Spouse's name: Martha

Gender: Male

Where born: Adwalton, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Drighlington

Ecclesiastical parish: Drighlington

County/Island: Yorkshire

Country: England

Street Address: Adwalton

Occupation: Miner and Cabinet Maker

Condition as to marriage: married

Disability: -

Registration district:            Bradford

Sub-registration district:     Cleckheaton

ED, institution, or vessel:   1c

Household schedule number:            143

Household Members:         

Name 
Relationship to Head Age Occupation Birthplace

John Clegg Head  45
Miner and Cabinet Maker, Adwalton, Yorks.

Martha Clegg Wife 44 do Wife Do

Jowett Townsent                 Son
19 Cordwainer Do

Sally Clegg Dau 15 Winder Do

Elizabeth Clegg 
Dau 9 at home Do

Simeon Clegg Son 6 Scholar Do

Sidney Clegg Son 3 do Do

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2303; Folio: 361;
Page: 38; GSU roll: 87513-87514.

[xxii]
Marriages Jun 1841

CLEGG   John                       Dewsbury            
22           39

SYKES   Martha                   Dewsbury            
22           39

[xxiii] IGI
JOHN CLEGG Male Christening: 11 AUG 1805 Birstall, Yorkshire, England
Father: WILLIAM CLEGG Mother: MARTHA                 

Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the
locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged
chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:             Dates:     Source
Call No.:    Type:      Printout Call No.:                  Type:


C108113                 1760 - 1812             0990526                  Film         6911082                  Film
        Sheet: 00

[xxiv] IGI
two patron submissions

[xxv] IGI
one patron submission

[xxvi] IGI
three patron submissions

Happy St George's Day. May the best man win!

Richard

Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
who, as a Commonwealth citizen (new name for British subject), cast his first vote at the June 1983 General Election as an undergraduate at Balliol.

 

_________________________________________________________________
Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724465

wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 12:16:38 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I cannot find any reference at all to an "Arthur" Englehardt or Engelhardt. I'm thinking that "Arthur" doesn't sound much like a Smolensk name. I wonder that it's not something a bit more Russian sounding. Anyone have a guess what Arthur would change into ?


Leo

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 1:00:37 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, wjho...@aol.com
In Russia there many families of German and Baltic origin and von Engelhardt
definitely was one of those, as a result many un-Russian first names can be
found amongst the people living in Russia.

I doubt you will find many Victoria's in England before Queen Victoria.
There are other first names introduced to countries because of one person

Best wishes


Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next
PrimeMinister

wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 1:33:15 AM4/24/10
to leov...@netspeed.com.au, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

So you're now claiming that "Arthur" is a Bulgarian name? or what?
Does the name "Arthur" exist in any language other than English?

<<In Russia there many families of German and Baltic origin and von Engelhardt
definitely was one of those, as a result many un-Russian first names can be
found amongst the people living in Russia.>>

Leo

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 2:00:14 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, wjho...@aol.com
What has Bulgaria got to do with the Baltic area? Of course the name exists in other countries.

Go to genealogics entry Name Search, in the box for first name enter Arthur and you will be surprised. Arthur was a name used by some dukes of Brittany as well.

Leo

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 2:12:47 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
2010/4/24 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
leli...@hotmail.com>

> Ancestry of Nick Clegg by Richard Carruthers, started 22 April 2010.
>
.....


> EIGHTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FIFTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
>
> 176. Andrei Osipovich Zakrevsky, 1742-1804, director, academy of fine arts,
> Kiev (Moura, p. 4)
>
> 177. NN
>
>
>
> NINTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S SIXTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
> 352. Osip Lukyanovich Zakrevsky, Moura, p. 4
>
> 353. NN
>
>

nobleman Ossip Lukianovich Zakrevski
(Josef)
and his Rozumovski wife (Anna Hryhorivna Rozumovska), are already in
genealogics
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00546294&tree=LEO

the Rozumovska wife (born probably around 1720) was a sister of the first
counts Rozumovski (Olexi Hryhorovych, Kyrylo Hryhorovych the hetman, of
Zaporozh...), being a daughter of Natalia Demyanivna, and Hryhory Razum
http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BC_%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%8F
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00554003&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00105704&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00554002&tree=LEO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Razumovsky

the Ukrainian Zakrevski likely were in some way of the same lineage as
(Ukrainian) Zakrevski under Polish dominion
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00043182&tree=LEO

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 2:19:50 AM4/24/10
to Will Johnson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com


references to Baron Arthur v. Engelhardt and things Russian (at the time).

Adel im grünen Rock: adliges Jägertum, Grossprivatwaldbesitz und die ... By Wolfram G. Theilemann, 2004, p. 546
also in
Erlebnis der Landschaft und adliges Landleben By Carl Gregor (Duke of Mecklenburg.), 1979, p. 193
Engelhardt, Arthur Freiherr v.. Aus russischen Wäldern, Sümpfen und Steppen. Erinnerungen eines baltischen Weidmannes. Berlin, 1926.


Schüler-Album des Dorpatschen Gymnasiums: von 1804 bis 1879, 1879, p. 241
*3885. Baron Engelhardt, Arthur Herman Leonid, a. Livl., Vorschule, Par.-Septima 74 — in Ober-Tertia.

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Volume 39 edited by Hans Friedrich
von Ehrenkrook, 1967, p. 192
6. Leonhard Johann Anton Baron v. Engelhardt, * Wurken, 4.8.1825, + Kerrafer, Livld, 9. 11. 1914, auf Kudling (1861 bis 1868), Livld, Akzisebeamter, Kais. russ. Hofrat.
X Urbs, Livld, 12. 9. 1859, Amalie (Emmy) v. Samson-Himmelstjerna...
3) Arthur Hermann Leonid * Kudling 6. 2. 1864, + Bogojawlensk 21. 3. 19??, Dr med. Arzt in Sterlitamak, Gouv. Ufa.


Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)


----------------------------------------
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com


> Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister

> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:16:38 -0400
> From: wjho...@aol.com


>
> I cannot find any reference at all to an "Arthur" Englehardt or Engelhardt. I'm thinking that "Arthur" doesn't sound much like a Smolensk name. I wonder that it's not something a bit more Russian sounding. Anyone have a guess what Arthur would change into ?
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 2:38:19 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
2010/4/24 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
leli...@hotmail.com>

> Ancestry of Nick Clegg by Richard Carruthers, started 22 April 2010.
>

> FIFTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
>
>

> 22. Ignatiy Platonovich Zakrevsky, 1841-1905, attorney general recte
> procurator general (Moura, p. 4), senator, Russian Imperial Senate (married
> twice, 3 children from 1st marriage, 1 from 2nd)
>
>

the Ukrainian nobleman
Ignati Platonovich Zakrevski was Ambassador to Egypt, and procurator-general
of the imperial senate

> SIXTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
>
>

> 44. Platon –ovich Zakrevsky
>
>

I already mentioned that some material (including portraits) about this
family, are at
http://www.primetour.ua/en/excursions/weekend/Sobyitie-sentyabrya--Osennee-zoloto.html

Platon Zakrevski evidently was lord of Berezova Rudka

his wife's name was Anna

Platon and Anna:
http://www.primetour.ua/~uploads/fck/image/one%20day%20trip_Rudka_Zakrevskie.jpg


it is not impossible that Platon's father would have been named: Hryhory
Zakrevsky
(who was lord of Berezova Rudka)

wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 2:48:39 AM4/24/10
to mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

The Galitzen connection here makes him a cousin to Madame Blavatsky.
Interesting that the mother of this Galitzen was an Engelhardt!


wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:01:52 AM4/24/10
to leli...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

This one you picked was dead in 1902 per
http://88.217.241.77/amburger/index.php?id=64631

So he couldn't have had a child Kira in 1909 as Moura's biographer states.



Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)

Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile.=

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:05:12 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
in Courlander branch, there actually existed at least two different Arthur
von Engelhardt, barons:
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Blatt_bsb00000602,00249.html?prozent=
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Blatt_bsb00000602,00250.html?prozent=

in Livonian branches, that baron Arthur whom Carruthers mentioned:
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Blatt_bsb00000558,00058.html?prozent=
* however, his kinsmen evidently are not aware of any marriage nor of any
progeny of his, as shown by the linked genealogy book

in Estonian branch, no ready Artur:
http://personen.digitale-sammlungen.de/baltlex/Blatt_bsb00000600,00079.html?prozent=

-----------------

and I suspect it was none of these Arthurs, actually....

wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:25:04 AM4/24/10
to wjho...@aol.com, leli...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Well at least we have proof that she actually called herself "Kira"
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7488&iid=NYT715_8595-0404&fn=Kira&ln=Clegg&st=r&ssrc=&pid=3033893744

Still it could be a familiar form of something else

wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:28:37 AM4/24/10
to wjho...@aol.com, leli...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Okay here we go, in 1940 she is claiming to be 31 years old

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=View&r=an&dbid=1075&iid=M1480_22-3209&fn=Kira&ln=Clegg&st=r&ssrc=&pid=5509802

So I suppose that's the evidence that gives us 1909 as her birthyear

Will




wjho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:32:36 AM4/24/10
to wjho...@aol.com, leli...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

I think I read that wrong, but now it makes worse sense. I *think* this card is stamped 1949 and she is a refugee?
But look at the place of birth! Nice France! Not in Russia!



-----Original Message-----
From: wjho...@aol.com
To: wjho...@aol.com; leli...@hotmail.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 24, 2010 12:28 am
Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:39:40 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
2010/4/24 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
leli...@hotmail.com>

>
> " " , Arsenij Andr., 1830 Finnl. Graf (1786 — 1865),Gen. 136, 299,
> 385, 438
>
> The biography of Moura Budberg states that she wasn't descended from the
> Count (so created in 1830), but it is interesting that the missing
> generation in the Zakrevsky line she cites would be for an NN Adreievich
> Zakrevsky, and the Count's dates fit, at least, for someone who was son of a
> man who was born in 1742. I'd like to see a joined up Zakrevsky pedigree,
> but apparently Ikonnikov (La noblesse de Russie) said that it had yet to be
> done, viz.:
>
> NdR, la noblesse de Russie: éléments pour servir à la ..., Parts 1-2‎ -
> Page 295, Nikolaĭ Flegontovich Ikonnikov - History - 1966
> ... des Zakrevsky sont connues en Petite-Russie, entre lesquelles Ici
> parente n'a pas encore été établie. Ces lignées, publiés par Roummel en
> 1884, ont été reproduites, avec corrections et augmentées par [snippet
> ends]"
>


unfortunately (as is easy to read by everyone who understand the Finnish
language)
http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/kenraalit/?gid=495
the father of governor-general, count Arseni Andreievich Zakrevski,
was lieutenant Andrei Ivanovich Zakrevski
- and these seemingly were from the Tver governorate, not Ukraine.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arseni_Andrejewitsch_Sakrewski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arseny_Zakrevsky

the title of count did not live many generations, because the first count
(this governor-general of Finland) had only one daughter, and no sons.
the Finnish countess Lydia Zakrevski (b 30.6.1826, d 23.3.1884)
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00299663&tree=LEO

Olivier

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 5:40:39 AM4/24/10
to
On 24 avr, 08:12, M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/4/24 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
> leliw...@hotmail.com>

>
> >  Ancestry of Nick Clegg by Richard Carruthers, started 22 April 2010.
>
> .....
>
>
>
>
>
> > EIGHTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FIFTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
> > 176. Andrei Osipovich Zakrevsky, 1742-1804, director, academy of fine arts,
> > Kiev (Moura, p. 4)
>
> > 177. NN
>
> > NINTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S SIXTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
> > 352. Osip Lukyanovich Zakrevsky, Moura, p. 4
>
> > 353. NN
>
> nobleman Ossip Lukianovich Zakrevski
> (Josef)
> and his Rozumovski wife (Anna Hryhorivna Rozumovska), are already in
> genealogicshttp://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00546294&tree=LEO

>
> the Rozumovska wife (born probably around 1720) was a sister of the first
> counts Rozumovski (Olexi Hryhorovych, Kyrylo Hryhorovych the hetman, of
> Zaporozh...), being a daughter of Natalia Demyanivna, and Hryhory Razumhttp://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BC_%D0%9D%D0...http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00554003&tree=LEOhttp://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00105704&tree=LEOhttp://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00554002&tree=LEOhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Razumovsky

>
> the Ukrainian Zakrevski likely were in some way of the same lineage as
> (Ukrainian) Zakrevski under Polish dominionhttp://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00043182&tree=LEO- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

Is this man an ancestor of Nick Clegg ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arseny_Zakrevsky

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 6:00:20 AM4/24/10
to olivierg...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

>from: olivierg...@gmail.com

> Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:40:39 -0700
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

>
> On 24 avr, 08:12, M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2010/4/24 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
> > leliw...@hotmail.com>
> >
> > > Ancestry of Nick Clegg by Richard Carruthers, started 22 April 2010.
> > > EIGHTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FIFTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
> >
> > > 176. Andrei Osipovich Zakrevsky, 1742-1804, director, academy of fine arts,
> > > Kiev (Moura, p. 4)
> >
> > > 177. NN
> >
> > > NINTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S SIXTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
> >
> > > 352. Osip Lukyanovich Zakrevsky, Moura, p. 4
> >
> > > 353. NN
> >
> > nobleman Ossip Lukianovich Zakrevski
> > (Josef)
> > and his Rozumovski wife (Anna Hryhorivna Rozumovska), are already in
> > genealogicshttp://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00546294&tree=LEO
> >
> > the Rozumovska wife (born probably around 1720) was a sister of the first
> > counts Rozumovski (Olexi Hryhorovych, Kyrylo Hryhorovych the hetman, of
> > Zaporozh...), being a daughter of Natalia Demyanivna, and Hryhory Razumhttp://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BC_%D0%9D%D0...http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00554003&tree=LEOhttp://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00105704&tree=LEOhttp://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00554002&tree=LEOhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Razumovsky
> >
> > the Ukrainian Zakrevski likely were in some way of the same lineage as
> > (Ukrainian) Zakrevski under Polish dominionhttp://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00043182&tree=LEO- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
> >
> > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
>
> Is this man an ancestor of Nick Clegg ?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arseny_Zakrevsky
>

Hélas, non.

Richard



_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail & Messenger. Get them on your phone now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724463

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 6:46:59 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
2010/4/24 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
leli...@hotmail.com>


a twin with her sister Anna (1884-1941)(m. Vasili’i Vasilievich Kochubei, b.

> 1883, member of the pre-1917 Russian State *Duma*)
>

this Vasili Vasilievich Kotchubei must have been a kinsman of the following
nobles Kotchubei:

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00540286&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00540293&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00259274&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00540292&tree=LEO

------------------

22. Ignati Platonovich Zakrevski, 1841-1905, procurator general, senator,


Russian Imperial Senate (married twice, 3 children from 1st marriage, 1 from
2nd)

23. NN, first wife

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 7:12:36 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 24 huhti, 10:25, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
> Well at least we have proof that she actually called herself "Kira"
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7488&iid=NYT715_...

>
> Still it could be a familiar form of something else
>

no it does not need to be a form of anything else. nor is it likely.
Kira was a well-established orthodox female name.
live with that. do not invent unnecessary things.


On 24 huhti, 10:32, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
> I think I read that wrong, but now it makes worse sense. I *think* this
card is stamped 1949 and she is a refugee?
> But look at the place of birth! Nice France! Not in Russia!
>

many children of russian upper class were born in France in that epoch,
between 1700s and early 1900s.
russian nobles sojourned a lot in France.

On 24 huhti, 08:33, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
> So you're now claiming that "Arthur" is a Bulgarian name? or what?
> Does the name "Arthur" exist in any language other than English?
>
> <<In Russia there many families of German and Baltic origin and von
Engelhardt
> definitely was one of those, as a result many un-Russian first names can
be
> found amongst the people living in Russia.>>

Will, you are the only one who has confused Bulgaria into this. Discard it.

As to Baltic, I already mentioned that all the three von Engelhardt 'houses'
I know from nobility genealogies, do have a connection to baltic nobility.
Live with that.
baltic families are quite plausible to have the boy name Artur.

also, fwiw, the Polish were naming many of their sons as Artur in the 1800s.

Renia

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 8:07:47 AM4/24/10
to
wjho...@aol.com wrote:
> I cannot find any reference at all to an "Arthur" Englehardt or Engelhardt.. I'm thinking that "Arthur" doesn't sound much like a Smolensk name. I wonder that it's not something a bit more Russian sounding. Anyone have a guess what Arthur would change into ?


It's Germanic, non? Try Artur.

Renia

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 8:09:51 AM4/24/10
to
Leo wrote:
> What has Bulgaria got to do with the Baltic area? Of course the name exists in other countries.

He's thinking of the Balkan area.

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 10:26:42 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
2010/4/24 <wjho...@aol.com>

> The Galitzen connection here makes him a cousin to Madame Blavatsky.
> Interesting that the mother of this Galitzen was an Engelhardt!
>
>

not 'Galitzen' but Galitsin, Galitzin, Golitsin, Golitsyn, frenchy scribble
Galitzine

this prince Grigori Galitzin
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00152263&tree=LEO
was a godson of his great-uncle, the serene prince Potemkin, and empress
Catherine II
and perpetuated the Potemkin uncle's name, Grigori.

as everyone who has bothered to read Potemkin's biography (there's one on my
bookshelf)
would know, Grigori Galitzin's mother, Varvara Vasilievna Engelgart (or von
Engelhardt) was one of maternal nieces of Potemkin, and one of ultimate
heirs of the serene princes immense riches.

Vasili Andreievich von Engelhart (born bef 1730; dc 1794) was already a born
kinsman of the Potemkins, in their very home district (in borderzones of
Belarussia), and married a sister (= the bride and groom were remote
cousins) when the great Potemkin had not yet risen to any position.
The Potemkin's subsequent career meant that the children of that couple
(whse origin is of local petty nobility there) came to great prominence and
wealth, the serene prince taking care that his nieces married to highest
aristocracy....

here you see Potemkin's family in genealogics (though it's still there
incomplete and fragmented):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00418482&tree=LEO&displayoption=all&generations=4

--------------

it may well be that Artur von Engelhardt was descended from the agnatic
house of the said Vasili Andreievich von Engelhardt.

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 10:29:28 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> the Baltic area

> >
> > He's thinking of the Balkan area.
>


this would be similar as saying that Will Johnson lives in Calimantan

(Will, do you see any difference between California and Calimantan? why
then between Balkan and Baltic)

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 11:32:12 AM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
about the myth that this Zakrevski family would have been descended from
empress Elisabeth of Russia:

according to 'official' genealogy, Andrei Osipovich Zakrevski's mother, Anna
Hryhorivna Rozumovska,
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00546295&tree=LEO
was sister of count Oleksi Hryhorivych Rozumovsky, the known lover (and
possibly secretly wedded husband) of empress Elisabeth
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00105704&tree=LEO

this is quite often enough for a family legend or a local legend to develop
- it means nothing more than 'indirect' descent from the prominent person.
The Zakrevskis have a direct descent from Anna, who was sister of count
Oleksi whose 'spouse' was the empress. So, the empress was sort of aunt to
Andrei Osipovich, the forefather of the Zakrevski - who recall that indirect
thing as descent.

however, there is some other details in the myth:
that they descend from an illegitimate son of the emptress Elisabeth and her
chancellor, Mikhail Vorontzov. In other words, the illegitimate would not
have been sired by the official uncle, Oleksi Rozumovski, but by another,
alleged lover of the empress.


EIGHTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FIFTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)

176. Andrei Osipovich Zakrevsky, 1742-1804, director, academy of fine arts,
Kiev (Moura, p. 4)


the empress Elisabeth was born in 1709, thusly her fertile years were at end
after c1755.
any plausible (fostered) son of Andrei Osipovich, cannot have the empress'
begat.

PDel...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 2:55:57 PM4/24/10
to wjho...@aol.com, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Hmmm .....is 20th Century something to do with modern history not
medieval....correct me if I'm wrong...and for that matter, Clegg won't be the next
British Prime Minister - all he will have done is raise the percentage of
the British electorate voting from 23% to 25% -- but does it matter in the
greater scheme of things?...Just another twat....the people I had to lunch
today were far more the movers than Cloggy, Cameron or Brown.

Pg

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:21:13 PM4/24/10
to re...@deleteotenet.gr, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 4/24/2010 5:10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
re...@DELETEotenet.gr writes:


> It's Germanic, non? Try Artur. >>


Yes that's right. I'd scanned for "Artur" instead and found several Artur
Engelhardts or Englehardts living in Germany in the phonebooks in the 1920s
but no obvious wife listed. I was hoping I'd at least find an "Artur and
Alla" or something... but no dice.

Will

Dina Grozev

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 3:35:35 PM4/24/10
to M Sjostrom, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Being Bulgarian myself, I notice people often reference the ethnicity when
trying to be funny or sarcastic, or both I guess. I really doubt he is
confusing the two regions.

Otherwise enjoying this interesting thread,

Dina

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 5:02:00 PM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 24 huhti, 22:21, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Yes that's right. I'd scanned for "Artur" instead and found several Artur
> Engelhardts or Englehardts living in Germany in the phonebooks in the
1920s
> but no obvious wife listed. I was hoping I'd at least find an "Artur and
> Alla" or something...
>
> Will


Will, after 1912 is recorded that Alexandra Ignatievna Zakrevska already was
married with Rene Moulin, and thusly no longer with Artur Engelhardt.

So, you will not find Engelhardt and Alexandra as couple after the
revolution, anywhere.

for all we know, baron Arthur von Engelhardt may even have died early. not
all things Russian noblewomen did, were divorces. occasionally, some of them
got widowed.

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 5:15:05 PM4/24/10
to mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 4/24/2010 2:03:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mqs...@gmail.com writes:


> Will, after 1912 is recorded that Alexandra Ignatievna Zakrevska already
> was
> married with Rene Moulin, and thusly no longer with Artur Engelhardt.
>
> So, you will not find Engelhardt and Alexandra as couple after the
> revolution, anywhere.
>
> for all we know, baron Arthur von Engelhardt may even have died early. not
> all things Russian noblewomen did, were divorces. occasionally, some of
> them
> got widowed.>>

I don't mean I only looked in the 1920s. I just mean I looked at what
resources I had available. I know that they were married by 1908 or 1909 since
that's the year their daughter was born, and I know she divorced him because
Moura's biographer states that. That biographer then states that Alla
"moved to Paris in 1912" and married Rene Moulin as her second husband. I tried
for his name also and came up blank.

Her last husband Trubnikov is more interesting, there is a *modern* person
living today named "V I Trubnikov" he is some kind of Russian politician.
This older Trubnikov evidently committed suicide in 1927 in Naples.

The biographer *also* states that Alla herself committed suicide as well.
But then in the index states that Alla lived until 1960 ! That doesn't make
much sense. Committing suicide when you're in your 70s?

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 7:41:18 PM4/24/10
to Will Johnson, mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

> From: WJho...@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:15:05 -0400

> Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister
> To: mqs...@gmail.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com

>
> In a message dated 4/24/2010 2:03:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mqs...@gmail.com writes:
>
>
>> Will, after 1912 is recorded that Alexandra Ignatievna Zakrevska already
>> was
>> married with Rene Moulin, and thusly no longer with Artur Engelhardt.
>>
>> So, you will not find Engelhardt and Alexandra as couple after the
>> revolution, anywhere.
>>
>> for all we know, baron Arthur von Engelhardt may even have died early. not
>> all things Russian noblewomen did, were divorces. occasionally, some of
>> them
>> got widowed.>>

There appear to be three main "sources" (all secondary, alas) for much of this. The first I found was the biography of Alla's younger sister half-sister Maria "Moura" Baroness Budberg. It states that Alla was first married to Arthur Engelhardt, had a child with him, Kira (Nick Clegg's paternal grandmother, who died in 2005 in her 96th year), and left her to be brought up with Moura's children. She moved to Paris in 1912 where she met and married Rene Moulin (marking her Alexandra Moulin not Moullen as some articles have stated). She later divorced Moulin and then married V.I. Trubnikov, with whom she apparently led a raucous life, and became addicted to morphine. Moura had to rescue her when V.I.T. shot himself in Naples in 1929. Alla/Alexandra is supposed to have been a twin with Anna Ignatievna, and was born in 1884, and died in 1960. Those are the bare bones of what that biography states.

Then Ikonnikov's "Noblesse de Russie", which I am only able to see parts of in google's book search "snippet view" has an account of the Zakrevsky family in one of his volumes (imperfectly identified by google), published in 1966 (well a typescript really which appears to have been mimeographed or something like that), in which he states a number of interesting things:

First: He says there were two lines of Zakrevskys in Little Russia (Ukraine) which were as yet unconnected. He relied on older work done in 1884, and added corrections and additions.

Two: One of his main sources was his number 57. Anna Ignatievna Zakrevskaya, wife of V.V. Kochoubei (his spelling) who was Alla's twin. She appears to have been the informant for much of the information on their branch, particularly for the information on her sisters.

Getting round google snippet view's restrictions involves a certain amount of inventiveness in order for new bits to be revealed. Sometimes it says that the entire page in question is restricted, while at others it confirms that such and such a phrase is or isn't on a page. I am able to confirm that Alla Ignatievna appears to be the form under which Anna's twin appears, though those words don't appear in the snippet shown. I have also confirmed that "Arthur Engel" appears but the search for "Engelhardt" does not turn up a result on the same page. This is misleading, and due to a line break and the limitations of OCR technology. I can just make out the line that shows the end of his name on a separate line as "hardt. Divorcees en 190? [probably 1909 the year that daughter Kira was born, apparently as an only child].
The next line makes reference to her next husband Rene Moulin whom she is stated to have married in 1912 and divorced in 1923. He is a Frenchman, and a known or famous explorer. No children are noted. Then comes V.I. Trubnikov, on whom Ikonnikov's account (from Anna one presumes) is fuller than Moura's biographer Berberova.

Alla's third husband was originally Vladimir Ivanovich Zaleman who changed his named to Trubnikov in the Great War. They are stated to have married in 1925, and he to have died in 1929. End of story.

The third source(s) comes from ancestry.com, and is really a combination of items, of which one stands out: a declaration of intention for U.S. naturalisation for a Marie de Trubnikov.

In it she states that she is the widow of Vladimir de Trubnikov who was previously naturalised an American. They were married in Tokyo in 1917 and he died in Naples in 1927....I think we are on to something though things don't quite jibe with the two foregoing accounts. This is from the horse's mouth, though the horse in wearing altered colours, as it were (not Alla but Marie).

One has to view the foregoing in the light of what Moura's biographer Nina Berberova said about Moura's coming to Alla's rescue apparently not for the first time when V.I.T. shot himself in Naples in the 1920s (and not forgetting that Moura's family brought up Alla'd daughter Kira at least for a time). Did Alla use her sister's Moura's baptismal name Maria and disguise herself as Marie? Certainly this is a possibility. It may have provided cover of some kind for Moura as well as Alla. Certainly those times were fraught for Russian aristocrats trying to escape the reach of the new Soviet government in their homeland. Moura's biographer states that she was very secretive and so this sort of identity confusion may have been one of her cloak-and-dagger gambits.

At any rate, this last document provides an exact birthdate in 1883 for Marie (Alla?) and her birthplace as Moscow. It also gives the exact date and places for her marriage to Trubnikov and his death, which though they conflict with her sister Anna's account in Ikonnikov (which appears to have been a source for the later biography of Moura).

The other items are a ship's passengers list showing Wladimir de Trubnikov sailed to Naples in 1924, the 1920 U.S. census showing Vladimir and Marie together, and items relating to V.I.T.'s U.S. naturalisation. Taken together they are highly suggestive of an American detour for Nick Clegg's great-grandmother Alexandra Ignatieva "Alla" Zakrevsky.

I do not know where and when Alla died, but if she died in the U.S. (and if the date 1960 in Moura's biography is reliable) she may have had a U.S. Social Security number, and there may have been a file on her which might shed further light on some of these otherwise unsatisfactorily resolved tidbits.

It is remarkable that Alla's daughter Kira died in Britain only 5 years ago (in August) in her 90s. I wonder what she knew about her parents and their backgrounds? And what, beyond their names, did she pass on to her children and grandchildren? How does this relate to the two private member trees called Clegg family and CLEGG family which I note are on ancestry.com?

Interestingly, not all knowledge of their Russian past was lost as is revealed by two online obituaries for Alla's twin Anna's daughter Tania Alexander.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article400742.ece

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/tania-alexander-683200.html

Richard

Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)


>
> I don't mean I only looked in the 1920s. I just mean I looked at what
> resources I had available. I know that they were married by 1908 or 1909 since
> that's the year their daughter was born, and I know she divorced him because
> Moura's biographer states that. That biographer then states that Alla
> "moved to Paris in 1912" and married Rene Moulin as her second husband. I tried
> for his name also and came up blank.
>
> Her last husband Trubnikov is more interesting, there is a *modern* person
> living today named "V I Trubnikov" he is some kind of Russian politician.
> This older Trubnikov evidently committed suicide in 1927 in Naples.
>
> The biographer *also* states that Alla herself committed suicide as well.
> But then in the index states that Alla lived until 1960 ! That doesn't make
> much sense. Committing suicide when you're in your 70s?
>

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

_________________________________________________________________
Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724465

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 8:49:16 PM4/24/10
to mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

----------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:32:12 +0300

> Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister
> From: mqs...@gmail.com
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

>
> about the myth that this Zakrevski family would have been descended from
> empress Elisabeth of Russia:
>
> according to 'official' genealogy, Andrei Osipovich Zakrevski's mother, Anna
> Hryhorivna Rozumovska,
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00546295&tree=LEO
> was sister of count Oleksi Hryhorivych Rozumovsky, the known lover (and
> possibly secretly wedded husband) of empress Elisabeth
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00105704&tree=LEO
>
> this is quite often enough for a family legend or a local legend to develop
> - it means nothing more than 'indirect' descent from the prominent person.
> The Zakrevskis have a direct descent from Anna, who was sister of count
> Oleksi whose 'spouse' was the empress. So, the empress was sort of aunt to
> Andrei Osipovich, the forefather of the Zakrevski - who recall that indirect
> thing as descent.
>
> however, there is some other details in the myth:
> that they descend from an illegitimate son of the emptress Elisabeth and her
> chancellor, Mikhail Vorontzov. In other words, the illegitimate would not
> have been sired by the official uncle, Oleksi Rozumovski, but by another,
> alleged lover of the empress.
>

Well, and that same website which you pointed out

http://www.primetour.ua/en/excursions/weekend/Sobyitie-sentyabrya--Osennee-zoloto.html

calls Platon Zakrevsky the grandson of Gregory who was the alleged offspring of Mikhail Vorontsov and the Empress Elisabeth Petrovna which certainly creates a few problems with the official genealogy as it apparently has no space for this Gregory/Grigori/Hrihori Zakrevsky, whom the website also says was the estate's founder.

It posits the following line of descent for Nick Clegg, viz.:

1. The Empress Elizabeth Petrovna 1709-1762+Mikhail Vorontsov
2. Gregory Zakrevsky, illegitimate son, founder of Berezova Rudka estate, no birthdate given, but mid-late 18th century one presumes, plausible maternity by the empress fails or almost fails unless the later generational gap is longer.
3. unnamed son NN -Gregorovich Zakrevsky, born say 1780-1800
4. Platon --ovich Zakrevsky (brother of Viktor, friend of Taras Shevchenko)= Anna NN (b. ca 1821/22, at 21 the lover of 29-year-old Taras Shevchenko (b. 1814), and the inspiration of the poem/song "Dark Eyes".
5. Ignatiy Platonovich Zakrevsky 1841-1905, builder of the Zakrevsky pyramid = NN First wife
6. Alexandra "Alla" Ignatievna Zakrevskaya 1883/4-1960= Baron Arthur Engelhardt
7. Baroness Kira Engelhardt (1909-2005) 1909-2005 =Dr Hugh Anthony Clegg, CBE
8. Nick Clegg, Sr CBE (2009) b. 1936 = Hermance van de Wall Bake
9. Nick Clegg, Lib-Dem leader, b. 1967

A nice pipe dream but an unlikely one. Twould have given Clegg an imperial descent to match David Cameron's proven one from William IV (Queen Victoria's uncle). Twould also have made Nick Clegg a descendant of the daughter of Peter the Great and of an aunt (by marriage) of Catherine Great...

The genealogy I have been able to establish (from Berberova's Moura and apparently confirmed by a recent article in Izvestia quoted in the Guardian of 20 inst.) is really

1. Osip Lukyanovich Zakrevsky, cossack banner bearer
2. Andrei Osipovich Z. 1742-1804, ut infra
3. NN Andreievich Z.
4. Platon --ovich Z., born say 1815-20, m. Anna NN, b. ca 1821/22
5. Ignatiy Platonovich Z., 1842-1905 (The Guardian quoting Izvestia says he died in Cairo in 1906 [sic] and his body was embalmed there and returned to Russia for burial under the pyramid he had had constructed on his estate in 1898 as a result of his stint as Russian ambassador to Egypt in 1898)
6. Alexandra "Alla" Ignatievna Zakrevskaya 1883/4-1960 m. (1), div. 1909, Baron Arthur v. Engelhardt
7. Kira Engelhardt, b. 2 July 1909, d. Aug. 2005, England, m. 1932, Dr H.A. Clegg, CBE (ODNB entry) 1900-1983
8. Nick Clegg senior, b. 1936 = m. 1959 H.E. van de W. B. b. 1936
9. Nick Clegg, Lib-Dem leader, b. 1967

A better sketch of the Zakrevsky line should be available in Ikonnikov's "Noblesse de Russie", 1966, 2nd edn, parts 1-2, pp. 295-301, and ff.? which has an article derived from various older sources as well as Alla's twin Anna, and of which I have only seen snippets.

The Russian and Ukrainian papers may carry fuller details of the line as well.


>
> EIGHTH GENERATION (SUBJECT’S FIFTH GREAT GRANDPARENTS)
>
> 176. Andrei Osipovich Zakrevsky, 1742-1804, director, academy of fine arts,
> Kiev (Moura, p. 4)
>
>
> the empress Elisabeth was born in 1709, thusly her fertile years were at end
> after c1755.
> any plausible (fostered) son of Andrei Osipovich, cannot have the empress'
> begat.



_________________________________________________________________
Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 9:00:36 PM4/24/10
to Will Johnson, mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com


> Interestingly, not all knowledge of their Russian past was lost as is revealed by two online obituaries for Alla's twin Anna's daughter Tania Alexander.

Oops, Moura's daughter not Anna's, entschuldigen!

>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article400742.ece
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/tania-alexander-683200.html
>
> Richard
>
> Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
>>
>> I don't mean I only looked in the 1920s. I just mean I looked at what
>> resources I had available. I know that they were married by 1908 or 1909 since
>> that's the year their daughter was born, and I know she divorced him because
>> Moura's biographer states that. That biographer then states that Alla
>> "moved to Paris in 1912" and married Rene Moulin as her second husband. I tried
>> for his name also and came up blank.
>>
>> Her last husband Trubnikov is more interesting, there is a *modern* person
>> living today named "V I Trubnikov" he is some kind of Russian politician.
>> This older Trubnikov evidently committed suicide in 1927 in Naples.
>>
>> The biographer *also* states that Alla herself committed suicide as well.
>> But then in the index states that Alla lived until 1960 ! That doesn't make
>> much sense. Committing suicide when you're in your 70s?
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD!
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724465
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

_________________________________________________________________

Leo

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 11:15:51 PM4/24/10
to Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski, mqs...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Richard,

You are a spoil sport. First giving us this wonderful descent from Peter the
Great, and then you say it is unlikely. Well it was fun while it lasted.
Thanks to M. Sjostrom we can at least say that Nicholas Clegg, if not a
descendant, has quite a few Romanows as cousins, as well as Archdukes of
Austria and many others as well.

I am working on the Dutch side of Clegg's ancestry and am finding more and
more links to Indonesia (really, Dutch East Indies) and Sri Lanka (Ceylon)
but also Germany. Also there are indications of Huguenot ancestors, but
those so far are not as yet continued.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

http://www.primetour.ua/en/excursions/weekend/Sobyitie-sentyabrya--Osennee-zoloto.html

-------------------------------

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 11:18:34 PM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

2010/4/25 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <
leli...@hotmail.com>


> Well, and that same website which you pointed out
>
>
> http://www.primetour.ua/en/excursions/weekend/Sobyitie-sentyabrya--Osennee-zoloto.html
>
> calls Platon Zakrevsky the grandson of Gregory who was the alleged
> offspring of Mikhail Vorontsov and the Empress Elisabeth Petrovna which
> certainly creates a few problems with the official genealogy as it
> apparently has no space for this Gregory/Grigori/Hrihori Zakrevsky, whom the
> website also says was the estate's founder.
>

well, to be pedantic, nothing says tha the 'Gregory' woud need to be
paternal grrandfather, as opposed to, say, maternal grandfather.
People often make the error of assuming descent through only makes, leaving
females out of their thoughts. I call this as patriarchal fallacy.

An estate could be inherited from maternal grandfather, there is no need of
the wealth of Platon and his branch in ukrainian noble context to have come
from patriline....

Platon was probably born around 1810. plus minus ten years or so...

anyway, I still do not believe that they are descended directly from empress
Elisabeth.
the explanation for the legend is imo sufficiently good as being descended
from sister of Oleksi Rozumovski, making Elisabeth sort of an aunt.

M Sjostrom

unread,
Apr 24, 2010, 11:38:56 PM4/24/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
here we see Mikhail Larionovich Vorontzov, count, imperial chancellor, the
alleged lover of empress Elisabeth
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00558546&tree=LEO

and here we see empress Elisabeth
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00105703&tree=LEO

Vorontsov was some five years younger than Elisabeth.... and marrried to her
cousin Anna Karlovna.

nevertheless, the flow of lives of Vorontsov and the empress mean that
anytime at least in the 1740s, they could have bred a child together - if a
reigning empress could ever have lived the pregnancy months and given birth
- without notice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Illarionovich_Vorontsov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Russia

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 29, 2010, 7:58:16 PM4/29/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Hello List Members,

Below is the link to my article in today's edition of the Toronto "Globe and Mail". Of course, they edited it after I submitted it. I would never have said the two were cousins. They share cousins. They are "near-cousins" like "near-misses
Send", at best.

Anyway, there may be more on this front elsewhere in the press.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/politics-is-a-family-affair-for-ignatieff-clegg/article1550486/

Cheers,

Richard


Richard Carruthers(-Zurowski), M.A. (Oxon.)

P.S.
Yes, there are also 2 errors in the graphic. I supplied the info., the Globe the artwork. A couple of errors I'd found in the text were not corrected before the piece went to press.

_________________________________________________________________
Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
Apr 30, 2010, 4:41:03 AM4/30/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Hello List Members,

Below is the link to my article in yesterday's edition of the Toronto
"Globe and Mail". Of course, they edited it after I submitted it.
I would never have said the two were cousins. They share cousins.
They are "near-cousins" like "near-misses", at best.


Anyway, there may be more on this front elsewhere in the press.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/politics-is-a-family-affair-for-ignatieff-clegg/article1550486/

Cheers,

Richard


Richard Carruthers(-Zurowski), M.A. (Oxon.)
Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA


P.S.
Yes, there are also 2 errors in the graphic. I supplied the info., the Globe
the artwork. A couple of errors I'd found in its text were not corrected before

the piece went to press.


_________________________________________________________________

Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski

unread,
May 4, 2010, 10:24:19 PM5/4/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

I wonder if anyone can place within the wider Galitzine sib, the following person who was the child of a Zakrjevsky mother?


L'Intermï؟½diaire des chercheurs et curieux, Volume 33ï؟½, 1983, Page 242

Dï؟½cï؟½s ï؟½ Vienne le 14.12.1981. du prince Andrei Bor. Galitzine, ï؟½poux d'Anne Amï؟½lie Marguerite Litschauer. Nï؟½ ï؟½ Genï؟½ve le 8.9.1904, il ï؟½tait fils du prince Boris Galitzine et de Nathalie Zakrjevsky.

Many thanks,

Richard


Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)


----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:19:52 -0400


> Subject: Re: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister

> From: monica....@gmail.com
> To: leli...@hotmail.com
>
> Nice work, makes interesting reading!
>
> best,
>
> Monica

>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707

M Sjostrom

unread,
May 4, 2010, 10:37:00 PM5/4/10
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com

wjho...@aol.com

unread,
May 4, 2010, 11:19:46 PM5/4/10
to leli...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I can tell you that Prince Boris Galitzyn was a famous person. He was a seismologist who invented some new instruments and techniques. He was the president of some Russian meteorological association.

When he died May 1916 he was lamented by one source because ""he had only reached his 54th year""

So that gives you a few chronological points.


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <leli...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 7:24 pm
Subject: RE: Mediaeval Ancestry of the Man who could be Britain's next Prime Minister

I wonder if anyone can place within the wider Galitzine sib, the following
person who was the child of a Zakrjevsky mother?


L'Intermédiaire des chercheurs et curieux, Volume 33‎, 1983, Page 242

Décès à Vienne le 14.12.1981. du prince Andrei Bor. Galitzine, époux d'Anne
Amélie Marguerite Litschauer. Né à Genève le 8.9.1904, il était fils du prince