Owain Glyn Dwr
Simon Pugh
I am trying to compile a genealogy (an amateur effort) of Owain Glyn Dwr
and I have come across and entry in Burke's D&XP under Simon de Montfort
claiming a line between Simon de M. and Owain Glyn Dwr as follows:
1 Llywelyn the last
+ Eleanor de Montfort
2 Catherine verch Llywelyn <<- did she exist?
+ Philip ap Ifor
3 Eleanor
+Thomas ap Llywelyn
etc
This seems highly improbable and I thought Llywelyn only had one
daughter Gwenllian who became a nun. I wonder if anyone knows the source
of this story and secondly if anything is known of the genealogy of
Philip ap Ifor or his wife.
--
Simon Pugh
ED MANN
My note on Catherine says:
> Catherine's existence is called "questionable" and the line therefore "very doubtful." Per Weis, there is no contemporary evidence of her existence and the line mayhave been invented post hoc for dynastic reasons.
>
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
talk...@hotmail.com
Simon Pugh <si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all
> I am trying to compile a genealogy (an amateur effort) of Owain Glyn Dwr
> and I have come across and entry in Burke's D&XP under Simon de Montfort
> claiming a line between Simon de M. and Owain Glyn Dwr as follows:
> 1 Llywelyn the last
> + Eleanor de Montfort
> 2 Catherine verch Llywelyn <<- did she exist?
> + Philip ap Ifor
> 3 Eleanor
> +Thomas ap Llywelyn
> etc
> This seems highly improbable and I thought Llywelyn only had one
> daughter Gwenllian who became a nun. I wonder if anyone knows the source
> of this story and secondly if anything is known of the genealogy of
> Philip ap Ifor or his wife.
> Simon Pugh
You're correct: Llywelyn and Eleanor de Montfort only had one daughter,
Gwenllian. She was sent to the convent in Sempringham as a toddler in
1283, after Llywelyn's death in December 1282. The rumour of
Catherine's existence has no basis in fact and is considered by modern
historians as just that, a rumour. It is *highly* unlikely that Edward I
would have allowed any of Llywelyn and Eleanor's children to go on
undisturbed to marry and lead normal lives after the conquest of Wales.
He placed at least two daughters of the Princes of Gwynedd in convents as
children, and did even nastier things to the sons. The man had quite a
little vendetta against both the de Montfort's and the royal house of
Gwynedd...
HTH,
Jenny
-----
talk...@hotmail.com
I'm not a witch! They dressed me up like this!
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Gwynedd?(Besides drawing, quartering, and disemboweling Prince Dafydd ap
Gruffydd, I mean.) I don't think he bothered all of them. In fact, Llywelyn,
the illegitimate son of Prince Dafydd ap Llywelyn ap Iowerth served as
Constable of Rhuddlan Castle during Edward's reign, as did his son, Cynwrig,
after him.I'm wondering if Llywelyn and Cynwrig were left alone because Dafydd
ap Llywelyn Fawr would have been a first cousin to Edward I (Henry III and
Dafydd's mother, Joanna, were siblings.)Any thoughts on this?The National
Library of Wales does have records of Cynwrig and his father Llywelyn ap Dafydd
ap Llywelyn ap Iowerth as Constables of Rhuddlan Castle.
Susan Hammond
John Carmi Parsons
law. This meant (among many other things) that illegitimate children lost
the rights to inherit property that they had enjoyed under Welsh law. In
other words, a bastard son of Dafydd ap Llywelyn ap Iorwerth did not pose
the same potential threat to English dominion in Wales as the legitimate
daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd or the 7 daughters of Dafydd ap Gruffydd,
which is why Edward I was careful to have all these young girls (save one of
Daffydd's daughters who died in English custody in the summer of 1284) shut
up in English convents as soon as they were in his custody.
Dafydd ap Gruffydd's sons Llywelyn and Owain were imprisoned; Llywelyn died
there in 1288 and Owain was still alive in prison in 1305. It is not clear
how many of Daffydd's 9 known children were by his wife Elizabeth Ferrers.
It's possible one or both sons were illegitimate, but as the sons of the last
recognized claimant to rule Wales independently of England, they might have
been reckoned more formidable potential rebels than the descendants of Daffydd
ap Llywelyn ap Iorwerth.
John Parsons