Heirs of Nicholas
Roem...@aol.com
"grandson or great grandson" of Nicholas. But I have thought it was possible
that he was. Can you tell me where you saw information about a daughter and
nephew?
Kay
Todd A. Farmerie
This comes from:
Keats-Rohan "Domesday Book and the Malets: Patrimony and the Private
Histories of Public Lives" in *Nottingham Medieval Studies* xli (1997),
18.
The daughter of Nicholas was Hadvise, wife of Hugh fitz Grip, whose
brother was Geoffrey Martel was father of William Martel (mistakenly
placed by Robert de Torigny as son of Nicholas). Hadvise (or perhaps
her daughter or a second wife of Hugh) then married Alfred of Lincoln.
Nicholas did have a son Baldric fitz Nicholas named by Orderic as
fighting in Spain, but it was this WilliamMartel, son of Geoffrey Martel
and Steward of King Stephen who was in posession of Bacqueville-en-Caux
in the early 12th century, which led Elisabeth Van Houts to suggest that
there Hugh and Hadvise had no issue.
She also argues that Robert confused things, that it was Baudri "the
German", father of Nicholas de Bacqueville, Fulk de Aunou, Robert de
Courcy, and Gunnor wife of Gilbert Crispin, who married the niece of
Duchess Gunnor, while it was Nicholas's wife, Gertrude, who was niece of
Gilbert of Brionne.
Contemporary with these individuals, but without reason to hypothesize a
genealogical connection, were Roger de Bacqueville in Essex and Robert
de Bacqueville in Herefordshire. There were at least two unconnected
Bacquevilles in Normandy, and thus no reason to even connect either of
these men (or the later Baskervilles) with Bacqueville-en-Caux and
Nicholas.
taf
Ivor West
Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:39A2194D...@interfold.com...
> This comes from:
>
> Keats-Rohan "Domesday Book and the Malets: Patrimony and the Private
> Histories of Public Lives" in *Nottingham Medieval Studies* xli
(1997), 18.
>
>
> German", father of Nicholas de Bacqueville, Fulk de Aunou, Robert de
> Courcy, and Gunnor wife of Gilbert Crispin, who married the niece of
> Duchess Gunnor, while it was Nicholas's wife, Gertrude, who was
> niece of Gilbert of Brionne.
>
According to William of Jumieges, Gunnora's brother Herfast was father
of the nieces for whom Gunnora is noted.
Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
This is a misquote. Jumieges does not address these families in his
Gesta. It is the additions to this work recognized by hand as having
been contributed by Robert de Torigny, which mention the nieces, and
he does not supply a specific parentage to any of these nieces. That
they are all daughters of Herfast is a late and unfounded assumption.
Keats-Rohan suggests that Wevia and Osmund are the more likely
parents.
Roem...@aol.com wrote:
Another niece of Gunnora was ancestor of the Montgomerys. One of
Gunnora's sisters was ancestor of the Beaumonts and another of the
Giffards.
...........................................................
Wevia was an ancestor of the Giffards, Duvelina of the Beaumonts.
Through a Meulan marriage, Herluin's sister, Oda de Conteville, was
the mother-in-law of Roger de Beaumont.
Thinking about Conteville connections: was Osmund de Conteville,
vicomte of Vernon, the brother of Oda and Herluin's father, Jean de
Conteville? As Vernon passed to the Brionne family, one might have
thought that Osmund also married a daughter of Wevia and that it would
have been he who became the father of Gunnora d'Aunou who, having
married Gilbert de Brionne, passed Vernon to the Brionnes (assuming
that Fulk d'Aunou is out of the picture or taken care of otherwise).
If this was the devolution of Vernon and this curious medley of
Baskervilles, or some of them, were the brothers of the Aunous, could
it be that both Osmund and Baudri married, at different times, the
same niece of Gunnora de Crepon and that the Baskervilles were
brothers of the half blood to the Aunous?
Is it known who held Aunou?
Ivor West
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Through a Meulan marriage, Herluin's sister, Oda de Conteville, was
> the mother-in-law of Roger de Beaumont.
I see this claim in Stuart, citing ES III:700. I do not know what ES
might cite for the connection, but I must doubt it, particularly based
on what Bates hasto say regarding Herluin's parentage. Winkhaus simply
states that Oda is of unknown parentage.
> Thinking about Conteville connections: was Osmund de Conteville,
> vicomte of Vernon, the brother of Oda and Herluin's father, Jean de
> Conteville?
Herluin is traditionally given as son of a John "de Burgh", but this
only appears in late sources, and i don't think any contemporary
document survives which enables his father to be identified. Regarding
Herluin, David R. Bates wrote "Les origines d'Herluin sont
insondablement obscures. Nous ne savons pas qui etait son pere, et sa
propre existence ne nous est connue qu'a partir de son mariage avec
Arlette, habituellement date des environs de 1030." That being said,
discussion of the relationship of his father to Osmund is misplaced.
As to Osmund, the identity of his toponym has been debated. In the
original, he is called Osmund "de Centumuillis". Stapleton tried to
read this as Contenvillier, now Guainville, but this has been dismissed
by other researchers. Keats-Rohan has recently suggested that he and
his son Fulk can be seen in the Fulk fitz Osmund fitz Bursell, who
granted land in "Cliuillam". I don't think a Vernon connection to
Conteville is likely.
> As Vernon passed to the Brionne family, one might have
> thought that Osmund also married a daughter of Wevia
Why Wevia and not one of the other siblings? Why "also"?
> and that it would
> have been he who became the father of Gunnora d'Aunou who, having
> married Gilbert de Brionne, passed Vernon to the Brionnes (assuming
> that Fulk d'Aunou is out of the picture or taken care of otherwise).
This confuses several lines. First of all, while there is extensive
debate, it is not generally fealt that Fulk d'Aunou, son of Baudri the
German is the same as Fulk "de Alneio", son of Osmund of
Centemvilliers. (For example, Wace appears to distinguish the two
toponyms.) Thus Gunnora, sister of Fulk de Aunou is not daughter of
Osmund, but of Baudri. Likewise Gunnora de Aunou married, not Gilbert
de Brionne, but Gilbert Crispin. Gilbert de Brionne comes into play as
supposed uncle of Baudri's wife, although this seems chronologically
impossible (see below). Likewise, at least a claim on vernon would seem
to have remained with Osmund's family, as a daughter married into the
Redvers family, and they owned in Vernon, using it as a toponym on
occasion.
> If this was the devolution of Vernon and this curious medley of
> Baskervilles, or some of them, were the brothers of the Aunous, could
> it be that both Osmund and Baudri married, at different times, the
> same niece of Gunnora de Crepon and that the Baskervilles were
> brothers of the half blood to the Aunous?
I think I see where you are trying to go with this, but it flies in the
face of the evidence. For example, Fulk d'Aunou is specifically called
son of Baudri. While it has been questioned whether Nicholas de
Bacqueville (de Bascherivilla in Torigny), supposed nephew-in-law of
Gunnora is the same as the son of Baudri, but there is little doubt to
question this. It is possible that Osmund and Baudri married the same
niece of Gunnora, but there is no reason to support this one way or the
other.
As this can get quite confusing, I will give a few trees of various
possible solutions.
Based on Robert de Torigny and Orderic Vitalis
|--------------------|
?/=/Richard=Gunnora |
| |
| |
Richard |
| |
|------------| sib
Gilbert sib |
| |
| |
niece=Baudri |
| |
|-------|---------| |
Gilbert=Gunnora Fulk Nicholas=niece
Crispin d'Aunou de Bacqueville
Keat-Rohan ammendment, which assumes that Robert and Orderic reversed
the correct relationship (at first this seems clean, with just an
exchange coming into play, but in fact it requires these two authors to
have made reciprocal errors, which seems somewhat unlikely unless one of
them altered their version in response to viewing what the other had to
say):
|-------------------|
?/=/Richard=Gunnora |
| |
| sib
Richard |
| |
|------------| Baudri=niece
Gilbert sib |
| |---------|-------|
| | | |
niece=Nicholas Fulk Gunnora=Gilbert
de Bacqueville d'Aunou Crispin
As it is known that in some circumstance, the "nieces" of Gunnora are in
fact grandnieces, the following merits consideration, based on just one
error - that Robert placed the "niece" marrying son Nicholas, rather
than his father Baudri.
|-------------------|
?/=/Richard=Gunnora |
| |
| sib
Richard |
| |
|------------------| |--------|
Gilbert sib=child
|
|
Baudri=niece
|
|-------|-------|
Gilbert=Gunnora Fulk Nicholas
Crispin d'Aunou de Bacqueville
Next come a modification of what Ivor is suggesting, and an alternative
of my own. To be blunt, I don't think either is all that likely.
[Warning - this is HIGHLY speculative. DO NOT COPY INTO YOUR DATABASE]
|-------------------|
?/=/Richard=Gunnora |
| |
| sib
Richard |
| |
|---------------------------| |
Gilbert sib=niece
|
|
Baudri=niece=Osmund
| |
|-------|----------| |----|------|
Gilbert=Gunnora Fulk Nicholas dau Fulk
Crispin d'Aunou de Bacqueville | d'Alnei
|
Baldwin
de Redvers
Now, if Keats-Rohan is in error in identifying Fulk d'Alnei with Fulk
fitz Osmund fitz Bursell, or alternatively, if Osmund and Gilbert are
maternal half-brothers:
|-------------------|
?/=/Richard=Gunnora |
| |
| sib
Richard=X?=Bursell |
| ? |
|---?--|-----------| |-------|
Gilbert Osmund=niece
|
|----------|---------|
Baudri=niece Fulk dau
| d'Alnei |
|-------|-------| Baldwin
Gilbert=Gunnora Fulk Nicholas de Redvers
Crispin d'Aunou de Bacqueville
The take home message here is that we know so little about the
individuals and interrelationships involved, that there are numerous
possible solutions, and no internal control on what is and is not
likely.
taf
Richard Borthwick
suggests no affiliation for Oda and ES 700 (Beaumont-le-Roger) doesn't
mention her at all (though it does mention her dau. the wife of Roger).
Gryphon801
source from which he alleges he copies. To say that his work is wholly
untrustworthy is to praise it.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Stuart may not have consulted his source with due care. ES 701A (Meulan)
> suggests no affiliation for Oda and ES 700 (Beaumont-le-Roger) doesn't
> mention her at all (though it does mention her dau. the wife of Roger).
I should have been more careful in my summary. Being Stuart, he does
not specifically cite this source for the particular relationship in
question. He lists a half-dozen or so sources, some of which specify
groups of generations to which they refer. All of the others are linked
to other generations, were obviously inappropriate, or else I have them
handy, so I could eliminate all but this ES reference. Thus by
exclusion, if it comes from any of the cited sources, it had to be ES
3:700. As the information is not in ES, then none of his citations
support the information he provides.
taf
curly...@gmail.com
> I haven't seen anything in histories about Robert de Baskerville being a
> "grandson or great grandson" of Nicholas. But I have thought it was possible
> that he was. Can you tell me where you saw information about a daughter and
> nephew?
>
Hello, I thought I would add that Hugh Fitz Grip and Hadvise, were parents to Hugh Boscherbert, he then headed up the Boscherville line. If you go to Rouen, or look on the map of that area it clearly shows places with each of the Boscher/Bascher line families. You will find this information confirmed in the land holdings belonging to Hadvise/Hawise and Hugh Boscherbert
Dominic O'Ceallaigh
> > Kay
>
> Hello, I thought I would add that Hugh Fitz Grip and Hadvise, were parents to Hugh Boscherbert, he then headed up the Boscherville line. If you go to Rouen, or look on the map of that area it clearly shows places with each of the Boscher/Bascher line families. You will find this information confirmed in the land holdings belonging to Hadvise/Hawise and Hugh Boscherbert
Caroline Bosker
The Martels got their name from Martel in the South of France. It means hammer.
Will Johnson
taf
> The Martels got their name from Martel in the South of France. It means hammer.
taf
Peter Stewart
> On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:37:52 AM UTC-7, Caroline Bosker wrote:
>
>> Fitz Grip Martel was son of Geoffrey Martel. He married Hadvise Bausquervile or some thing similar.
>
> The correct name was Hugh fitz Grip. Fitz Grip = filius Grip - son of Grip. His given name was Hugh. 'Grip' is likely a garbled representation of a name unfamiliar to the chronicler; that it represents 'Geoffrey Martel' seems unlikely. 'Fitz Grip Martel' seems to beg the question, and I don't think there is any basis for the husband of Hadvise being called 'Martel', which was not a surname at the time, so even were he son of a man named Geoffrey Martel that doesn't mean he was also named Martel.
this was given for the father of Hugo of Wareham (sheriff of Dorset) in
the charter of his wife Hawise, Nicolas de Bacqueville's daughter, for
Montivilliers abbey evidently issued 1066/76 ("Ego Haduidis filia
Nicolai de Baschelvilla, uxor Hugonis de Varhan filii Gripponis", see
here:
https://pdnprod.unicaen.fr/scripta/ead.html?id=scripta&c=scripta_sc_6537,
and here:
https://thesauri.unicaen.fr/autorites/personnes/doc/pddn_p.1557738667237.html).
The same name was given for the father of Hugo's brother Walter in a
charter of their nephew William Martel, dapifer of King Stephen, for Eye
priory in the mid-12th century ("ego Willelmus Martell(us) dapifer regis
... Walterus filius Grip avunculus meus").
Hawise and Hugo had no known offspring.
>
>> The Martels got their name from Martel in the South of France. It means hammer.
>
> This might have been the case for a minority of people named Martel, but the majority of them bore it as a nickname rather than a toponymic. This also means that 'the Martels' do not represent a coherent genealogical grouping, since such a nickname could have been borne by any number of unrelated people whom their contemporaries viewed as embodying the metaphorical characteristics of a hammer.
eponymous castle has disappeared, lasted until the late-17th century -
they came from Angerville-la-Martel, ca 10 kms east of Fécamp. Nothing
to do with Martel in the département of Lot in south-western France.
Peter Stewart
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Caroline Bosker
Peter Stewart
descendants of Hugo fitz Grip of Wareham - assuming that is who is meant
by "Fitz Grip Martel", rather than one of his three known brothers. Only
one of them, Geoffrey, is recorded with the surname Martel.
The circumstantial evidence that Hugo fitz Grip's wife Hawise de
Bacqueville probably had no offspring by him, or at any rate none than
survived to have offspring in turn, is fairly strong. The speculation
(originating from Thomas Bond in 1893) that she or perhaps a daughter of
hers married Alfred de Lincoln (as Katherine Keats-Rohan maintained) is
fairly weak.
Peter Stewart
Caroline Bosker
Then I realised that there was also a switch to names such as Boscherbert, and Boscherberti etc, so I saw that there could be a link, but I could understand where the Herberti came into play until I found Fitz Grip, who I was led to believe was the brother of Geoffrey Martel. When I looked at the history of Dorset, and realised that his wife, a Bausquervile had huge land holdings I then looked into her family to find out where the Herbeti came in and realised that it came from his wifes side. With this I found the area of Herberti, and then realised that his wife`s mother had close members of her family with the Herberti name who were extremely wealthy and powerful. I believe that this is where his wife gained much of her wealth. I then started chasing the money. Fitz Grip had little in his name, even as Sheriff, he unusually never made it to Earl. (Perhaps through his appauling behaviour which attracted the attention of the King, or his short life). Either way the money was all in her name and she appeared to pass it on to (from memory Hugh Boscherbert who was either a baron, or an Earl). Beyond that there also seems to be Tierec Bosco de Herberti who lived in Dorset as well.
Obviously I am not a proffessional researcher, I am just trying to get to the bottom of where my family came from. Fortunately my family has never had too many off spring, always appear to have got to the top of their proffession, and are quite feisty individuals who make their mark, so they have successively appeared in the history books.
.
Caroline Bosker
The French all keep very accurate records of their families as you probably know, as they like to prove not only their connections with the nobility but also to the King and beyond that Jesus Christ.