OT: Jorge Mario Bergoglio

[Bronwen Edwards]

I have been muddling my way through ancestry.com Italia in search of a pedigree for the new Pope, Francis. His origin is humble, indeed, and I could not find anything beyond his parents and siblings.

He was born 17 Dec 1936 in the Buenos Aires district of Flores. He has two brothers and two sisters, although I only have the names of Alberto, Marta and Oscar. The only sibling still alive is his sister, Maria Elena, who has been married twice with a son from each husband. Alberto and Oscar were both married and have several children each, whose names have not been given. Maria Elena's name is known because she has been interviewed; I found her in the Pope's bio in Wikipedia. The others from ancestry.com Italia.

Their father was Mario Jose Bergoglio, who fled fascism; he was born in Portacomaro, Asti, Italy. He was a railway worker. In Argentina he married Regina Maria Sivori, described as a "housewife" born in Buenos Aires.

If anyone has been able to trace the Bergoglio and/or Sivori families back further, it would be of interest to me. Obviously not medieval yet (although maybe becoming that in his new job!), but with some work maybe we can find a point of origin for the family. Italy has been keeping records on ordinary people, apparently, quite a while longer than Britain. Bronwen

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:48:44 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:

> If anyone has been able to trace the Bergoglio and/or Sivori families back further, it would be of interest to me. Obviously not medieval yet (although maybe becoming that in his new job!), but with some work maybe we can find a point of origin for the family. Italy has been keeping records on ordinary people, apparently, quite a while longer than Britain. Bronwen

I wouldn't say it was a while longer; it's pretty close... Britian started Civil Records in 1837, and Parish records back to 1538. In Italy, it depends where you are, but it wasn't law until 1866, although some places began civil registration as early as 1809. Parish records in Italy were required starting in 1563, but very few survive before the 1580s/1590s; although, yes, a very very few started in the 1300s. I've never personally seen any though that dated to before the late 15th century.

--JC

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:48:44 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:

> I have been muddling my way through ancestry.com Italia in search of a pedigree for the new Pope, Francis. His origin is humble, indeed, and I could not find anything beyond his parents and siblings.

See here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324077704578358630745046140.html#slide/1

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:48:44 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:

> I have been muddling my way through ancestry.com Italia in search of a pedigree for the new Pope, Francis. His origin is humble, indeed, and I could not find anything beyond his parents and siblings.

Another good one:
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1564072-soy-bergoglio-cura-vida-intima-y-obra-del-papa-que-llego-del-fin-del-mundo

[Richard Carruthers]

The pope's direct ancestry (with a few siblings) compiled on 14/3/2013
from online newspaper articles, mostly in Spanish (but some in Italian
and French). One of the French ones mentioned that his forebears were
Piedmontese, but no exact place of origin in Italy was mentioned.
Obviously some of the names below are in Spanish when they should
perhaps be in Italian.

1a. Jorge Mario Bergoglio, b. 17 Dec. 1936, Buenos Aires, elected as
Bishop of Rome, 13 Mar. 2013, and took the name Franciscus
(i.e.Francis etc.)
1b. Oscar Bergoglio, deceased
1c. Marta Bergoglio
1d. Alberto Bergoglio
1e. Maria Elena Bergoglio

2. Mario Jose Bergoglio m. 1935
3. Maria Regina Sivori (siblings: Oscar Adrian Sivori; Catalina Estes
Sivori; Vicente Francisco Sivori; Luis Juan Sivori)

4. Juan Bergoglio
5. Rosa Margarita Vasallo (arrived in B.A. from Italy, Jan. 1929)
6. Francisco Sivori Sturla
7. Maria Gogna di Sivori

8. NN Bergoglio
9. NN
10. NN Vasallo
11. NN
12. NN Sivori
13. NN Sturla
14. NN Gogna
15. NN

Richard:)

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[Richard Carruthers]

This article fills in some gaps:

http://www.famigliacristiana.it/chiesa/news_1/articolo/ecco-l-albero-genealogico-di-papa-francesco.aspx

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.famigliacristiana.it/chiesa/news_1/articolo/ecco-l-albero-genealogico-di-papa-francesco.aspx&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522giuseppe%2BBergoglio%2522%2Bpapa%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff&sa=X&ei=ScRLUbbqGMPHiwKXr4GoCQ&ved=0CFEQ7gEwBA

Notably it fixes the precise place of origin of the Bergoglio family
as Asti in Piedmont.

An amended Ancestor Chart below showing additions from the article in
square brackets:

Richard:)

On 21/03/2013, Richard Carruthers <leli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The pope's direct ancestry (with a few siblings) compiled on 14/3/2013
> from online newspaper articles, mostly in Spanish (but some in Italian
> and French). One of the French ones mentioned that his forebears were
> Piedmontese, but no exact place of origin in Italy was mentioned.
> Obviously some of the names below are in Spanish when they should
> perhaps be in Italian.
>

> 1a. Jorge Mario Bergoglio, b. 17 Dec. 1936, Buenos Aires (BA), elected as

> Bishop of Rome, 13 Mar. 2013, and took the name Franciscus
> (i.e.Francis etc.)
> 1b. Oscar Bergoglio, deceased

> 1c. Marta Bergoglio[=Marta Regina Bergoglio, b. BA]
> 1d. Alberto Bergoglio[=Alberto Horacio Bergoglio, b. BA]
> 1e. Maria Elena Bergoglio [b. BA]
>
> 2. Mario Jose Bergoglio m. 1935 [b. 2 Apr. 1908, Turin]

> 3. Maria Regina Sivori (siblings: Oscar Adrian Sivori; Catalina Estes
> Sivori; Vicente Francisco Sivori; Luis Juan Sivori)
>

> 4. Juan Bergoglio[= Giovanni Angelo Bergoglio, b. 13 Aug. 1884 (reg'd 14/8/1884), Asti, moved to Turin, 1 Jan. 1906, m. 1907, Turin, returned to Asti 1918, left Asti for Argentina, 1 Feb. 1929]
> 5. Rosa Margarita Vasallo (arrived in B.A. from Italy, Jan. 1929)[= Rosa Vassallo, of Liguria]

> 6. Francisco Sivori Sturla
> 7. Maria Gogna di Sivori
>

> 8. NN Bergoglio[=Francesco Bergoglio b. ca 1856-57]

> 9. NN
> 10. NN Vasallo
> 11. NN
> 12. NN Sivori
> 13. NN Sturla
> 14. NN Gogna
> 15. NN

[16. Giuseppe Bergoglio, b. 1816]
[17. Maria Giacchino, b. 1819]

>
> Richard:)
>
>
> On 21/03/2013, Bronwen Edwards <lostc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Richard Carruthers]

Of Liguria is really adjectival for Leghorn or Livorno.

[Richard Carruthers]

On 21/03/2013, Richard Carruthers <leli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.atnews.it/cronaca/item/2983-le-origini-astigiane-di-papa-francesco.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522giuseppe%2BBergoglio%2522%2Bpapa%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff&sa=X&ei=ScRLUbbqGMPHiwKXr4GoCQ&ved=0CFkQ7gEwBQ
>
> 16. Giuseppe Bergoglio, b. 1816, Scherano
> 17. Maria Giacchino, b. 1819, Cocconato

>
> On 21/03/2013, Richard Carruthers <leli...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Of course, Liguria is really adjectival for Leghorn or Livorno.

[PaulV]

Anyone know why the Pope's grandmother Rosa has Vassallo as her name in Italy and Vasallo (with just one S) in Argentina?

[J Cook]

On Jun 6, 5:00 am, PaulV <paul.vall...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyone know why the Pope's grandmother Rosa has Vassallo as her name in Italy and Vasallo (with just one S) in Argentina?

Because a double "S" is not a construct in the Spanish language.

Joe C

[J.L. Fernandez Blanco]

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:00:06 AM UTC-3, PaulV wrote:
> Anyone know why the Pope's grandmother Rosa has Vassallo as her name in Italy and Vasallo (with just one S) in Argentina?

__________________

Because, at that time (and now!), Customs's employees were (and still are) almost illiterate. A friend of mine's, whose great grandfather's last name was Mashkarashvili, was written simply as "Calderón" (a Spanish surname), as the employees didn't understand a word of what he was saying. It took my friend's family more than 30 years to get their surname changed to the original form. My sister-in-law's great grand father's last name was "dedinai Báró Gömöry-Laiml (or Baron Gömöry-Laiml de Dedina), he was given a document showing his last name simply as Gomory (not so far from the original form); however, as of today, and after 40 years spent by her father and by her and her brother, they haven't been able to change it to the original form, having tons of papers proving the identity of their ancestor...so go figure! Even today, Chinese, Koreans, and other immigrants are given names that have nothing to do with their original ones (and usually names that are a sort of joke)...it looks like knowledge about multicultural issues hasn't arrived at these shores yet! The problem is not only with immigrants, it also severely affects "the original peoples" (the politically correct term for aboriginal peoples), many a time, when they get their documents (if they ever get one) they are ridiculized with such names as "Carlos Gardel" and things like that...and yet we are supposed to be living in a so-called "progressist government". I can't imagine what would happen if they were retrogads!
Regards.

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:21:41 PM UTC-4, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote:
> On Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:00:06 AM UTC-3, PaulV wrote:
>
> > Anyone know why the Pope's grandmother Rosa has Vassallo as her name in Italy and Vasallo (with just one S) in Argentina?
>

> Because, at that time (and now!), Customs's employees were (and still are) almost illiterate.

This is almost certainly untrue. There was no shortage of Italian speakers in Argentina at the time. The names were usually changed just for language+cultural reasons, even though that may seem odd, as it is not the usual custom today to translate given names in the local language, generally.

When speaking Spanish someone might be known always as Jose; but when speaking Italian, always known as Giuseppe when speaking Italian. Blaming a mental deficit of a bureaucrat is not usually the right answer. It might seem more reasonable when you realize these people were primarily named after Saints, and the Saints were known by different names depending on the language being spoken. St. Joseph wasn't known as San Jose in Spain because there was an illiterate churchman.

--Joe C

[J.L. Fernandez Blanco]

Excuse me! I live here and I am Argentinean, so I know how it works, because I've seen it first hand more than once. It is happening right now. If you don't trust what I say about my own country and my own experience, then do a little research here, that'll help you understand certain things about my country.
Regards.

[Richard Carruthers]

Just a thought: perhaps it was the newspaper in which I found the
information that gave that spelling of the surname, possibly as a mere
typo or other minor kind of reporting variation.

[J Cook]

On Jun 7, 7:41 pm, "J.L. Fernandez Blanco"

<fernandezblanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Excuse me! I live here and I am Argentinean, so I know how it works, because I've seen it first hand more than once. It is happening right now. If you don't trust what I say about my own country and my own experience, then do a little research here, that'll help you understand certain things about my country.
> Regards.

If you have a lot of experience living in Argentina a hundred years
ago; that would be interesting. I'm not doubting your own
experience; I just think you are missing the obvious that all almost
all names of Italian immigrants to Argentina were affected by the
language of the locals rather than being the result of a single dim-
witted customs individual making an error on a piece of paper.

I also wonder why you believe that Argentinian customs officials today
are illiterate....when it is much more true that the majority of
Italian immigrants were actually the illiterate ones (only a _quarter_
of Southern Italian immigrants to Argentina could read or write).
Perhaps it is easier to blame some customs official than for families
to admit that their great-grandparent didn't have any clue how to
spell their name or care.

--Joe C

[J.L. Fernandez Blanco]

On Saturday, June 8, 2013 1:38:28 AM UTC-3, J Cook wrote:
> On Jun 7, 7:41 pm, "J.L. Fernandez Blanco" <fernandezblanco...@gmail.com> wrote: > Excuse me! I live here and I am Argentinean, so I know how it works, because I've seen it first hand more than once. It is happening right now. If you don't trust what I say about my own country and my own experience, then do a little research here, that'll help you understand certain things about my country. > Regards. If you have a lot of experience living in Argentina a hundred years ago; that would be interesting. I'm not doubting your own experience; I just think you are missing the obvious that all almost all names of Italian immigrants to Argentina were affected by the language of the locals rather than being the result of a single dim- witted customs individual making an error on a piece of paper. I also wonder why you believe that Argentinian customs officials today are illiterate....when it is much more true that the majority of Italian immigrants were actually the illiterate ones (only a _quarter_ of Southern Italian immigrants to Argentina could read or write). Perhaps it is easier to blame some customs official than for families to admit that their great-grandparent didn't have any clue how to spell their name or care. --Joe C

My great grand father arrived 1908, he spoke Spanish, and he was literate. His last name was Calzón (which is also underwear). It didn't like the custom's employee, so he wrote down "Álvarez" despite all the objections my great grand father put forward. After leaving the infamous Immigrants' Hotel, he filed an injunction to get his name reversed to the original form. This was in 1908. He got it in 1957, the same year he died. That is one hundred years old.
Now, if you happen to come to Argentina through a regular flight, entering Ezeiza'a Airport (the main airport in the country), of course you won't find any problem, as everything in computarized (just a warning though, don't put any cellphone, ipod, camera or any kind of gadgedt in the luggage, because they steal it...watch the documentaries). Now, if you want to enter a nuclear weapon, you can easily come from any of the 350 illegal tarmacks in Bolivia, 400 illegal tarmacks in Paraguay, 900 hundred illegal tarmacks across the river in Uruguay an enter the country through empty customs (you can also watch this online). If you are concerned about how people are mocked when you do happen to find a Customs' official, you can also watch videos (you can either search for newspapers, Clarin, La Nación, the English speaking Herald, or Youtube). There is one showing the Triple Border (Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil), where the Argentinean Customs' employee, who barely speaks Spanish, mocks the immigrant (scary thought, he is from the Middle East) saying "¿Por qué no hablará castellano este pelotudo?" ( Why doesn't this dickhead speak Spanish). Upto there, fine. But, the immigrant crosses the border without his luggage never being oppened.
No wonder, 20 years after the AMIA and Embassy of Israel bombings, nothing has ever been discovered.
The question could remain as a sort of funny story, if it weren't for the dreadful implications. You can cross any border customs carrying children, drugs, weapons, money, nobody will ask you anything (again, you can search for all these)
And then, if they don't understand what you are saying, they just rubber-stamp your passport and your in.
The huge border we share with Bolivia, Paraguay, Brazil, and Uruguay (not Chile, because Chilean DO care) is one of the most porous borders in the world (there is not even ONE single radar working).
WE (I belong to more than one NGO battling against this, live through this nightmare everyday).
So it would be a first that some foreigner would try to tell me, after 35 years fighting against this, how it works now, how it worked in the near past, and how it worked, a century, two centuries ago.
Please!
Regards.