Diana and Camille cousins through the Herne family
Wjhonson
Leo correctly identifies the parents of Philadelphia Herne, ancestress of Camilla, as Nathaniel Herne and his wife Anne Ingram who had married 13 Feb 1690/1 but then stops short.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00575708&tree=LEO
He identifies the father of Judith Herne as Nathaniel Herne as well.
Noting that Judith was an heiress, I find this impossible as it is known that Nathaniel Herne had a son Nathaniel who, in HIS will names all his sisters and Judith is not one. In addition, Nathaniel the father, names all his DAUGHTERS, proving his sons list to be accurate, and Judith again is not listed. In addition Nathaniel (the elder) mentions his wife Anne already dead in his will as he desires to be buried next to her.
In probing this mystery, I find that Judith's father was Frederick Herne, Nathaniel's elder brother and thus the heir of their father. It was THIS son who married Elizabeth Lisle the eldest daughter of William Lisle of Evenley, MP and Col. He possibly has some interesting connections behind him as well.
Judith was the sole heiress of her father FREDERICK.
Thus we find that the Nathaniel ancestral to Camilla is the same person as that one of that name, second son of Nathaniel Herne (died 16 Aug 1679) and his wife Judith Frederick.
For Nathaniel Herne as the father of Judith, Leo cites CP 7. If this citation accurate, then this represents a correction to CP.
Will Johnson
John
What are your sources for the two Nathaniel Hernes (or are there
three)? You mention "Nathaniel the father" and then "Nathaniel (the
elder)". For the latter do you mean to say Nathaniel the younger?
For it was Nathaniel the son of Sir Nathaniel and brother of Frederick
whose wife was named Anne.
If you check CP 7:89 as cited by Leo, you'll see that in this case Leo
has made the mistake, not CP. CP has the parents of Judith, wife of
the Earl of Jersey, as Frederick Herne (not Nathaniel) and his wife.
Leo has also followed CP's incomplete identification of Frederick
Herne's wife, which is provided more fully (with sources) in Richard
Evans' ancestry of Princess Diana.
And, yes, there is royal ancestry behind Frederick Herne's wife, but
not through the Lisle family as you might expect. Her grandfather was
a grocer and draper in London and of uncertain descent - the royal
descent is via his wife. See Evans to get you started....happy
hunting!!
Wjhonson
There are three Nathaniel Herne's in a row, father-son-grandson if you will.
Nathaniel Herne of London bap Oct 1693 St Michael's, Bassishaw (Batch P001471 wj)
Will dated 2 Oct 1727, proved 27 Feb 1730 (PCC Auber 40)
In his will he names his living sisters
The father of this one was also Nathaniel /Herne/ of London; esq born 5 Mar 1668 Second son
Will dated 2 Dec 1720, proved 12 Jun 1722 (PCC Marlborough 118)
This one married Anne /Ingram/ 13 Feb 1690/1691 (license date?)
She is called "co-heiress of her father" Sir Arthur Ingram
And she was dead by the time of the 1720 will, but I haven't quite figured out *which* Arthur Ingram this might be.
The father of that one, or grandfather of the first if you will was also
Nathaniel /Herne/ , Alderman of London; Knt 1674
born 1628/1630
Will dated 12 Apr 1677, proved 28 Aug 1679 (PCC King 107)
buried St Olave's Jewry; "Aged 50"
married 1 Sep 1656
Judith /Frederick/ bap 7 Aug 1639
daughter of John /Frederick/ , Lord Mayor of London 1661-2 who was buried 19 Mar 1684/1685
Here's a few selected sources
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jz8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA114
http://books.google.com/books?id=4XBbOcUL0JIC&pg=PA346
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00575708&tree=LEO
http://books.google.com/books?id=i30KAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA225
http://books.google.com/books?id=i30KAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA224
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Wjhonson
Do you mean by this Susan Trist, daughter of
Richard /Trist/ of Maidford, co Northants
And, yes, there is royal ancestry behind Frederick Herne's wife, but
not through the Lisle family as you might expect. Her grandfather was
a grocer and draper in London and of uncertain descent - the royal
descent is via his wife. See Evans to get you started....happy
hunting!!
-----Original Message-----
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: Diana and Camilla cousins through the Herne family
John
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Yes, that's the one.
John
And the royal descents I'm referring to are not the "Welsh Royal
Descents" that you can easily easily find on-line - but rather from a
Plantagenet monarch of England.
Wjhonson
I think that the Anne Ingram "co-heiress of her father" who married Nathaniel Herne and was already dead in his will dated 1720 where it states that she is buried at St Dionis Backchurch, *must* fit here as a daughter to this Sir Arthur Ingram
http://books.google.com/books?id=raNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA540
In his will he mentions his brothers-in-law Robert and Arthur Ingram.
If I am correct this would be a smashing good link.
John
And anyway the "Welsh Royal Descent" (from an early Burke's
publication) doesn't stand up under scrutiny.
Wjhonson
I'm changing my file notes for Anne (Ingram) Herne from "co-heiress" to "co-heiress in her issue" as we know her brother Arthur and Robert were yet living after she had already died. The only other option I see right now, is perhaps she was a daughter of Arthur's first wife Elizabeth Chamberlayne, but that would mean that Anne was at least 9 years older than her husband, and I think that's unlikely.
Anne (Ingram) Herne, had a full sister Hannah (Ingram) Champneys, the wife of Arthur /Champneys/ of Raleigh House near Barnstaple, co Devon (he died 1724).
Anne herself must have been born exactly between 1660 and 1677 as their eldest child Anne was baptised 9 Mar 1692 St Michael's, Bassishaw (Batch P001471 wj). Their last child, eight children later, was Jinny Herne, mentioned with that odd firstname, in both her father's and her brother's wills. She was baptised 3 Jun 1708 St Michael's, Bassishaw (Batch P001471 wj).
Will Johnson