Mother of Margaret de Stafford (Margaret Stafford)
DMac
concerning the identity of Margaret de Stafford's mother, i.e., is she
Katharine de Hastang, or Margaret de Audley?
It is most probable that Sir Ralph de Stafford's marriage to his
first wife, Katherine de Hastang, occurred prior to 1327 when ". . . a
fine was levied between Ralph de Stafford and Katharine his wife,
Querents, and Humphry de Hastang, Deforciant, whereby the manors of
Calelond, Cornwall, and la Hide, co. Stafford, were settled in fee
tail on the said Ralph and Katharine. [Feet of Fines, Divers Counties,
1 Ed. I I I . No. 7]." Cokayne, G. E. (ed), Complete Peerage
(1896-1898), Vol. 7, pp. 209. [G404J_33] He married secondly, before
10 Oct. 1336, Margaret de Audely. Id.
There has been considerable debate among modern-day researchers
regarding the identity of the mother of Margaret de Stafford. Some
contend that the Margaret de Stafford, who married John de Stafford,
is the product of a union between Sir Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of
Stafford, and his first wife Katherine de Hastang. Others say that
Margaret's mother was Margaret de Audley, Sir Ralph's second wife. In
short, there is an unreconciled conflict as to the identity of
Margaret's mother.
It appears that no definitive contemporary documentary evidence
on this point has ever been found. We seem to be left with a mass of
unstated circumstances tending to the conclusion that Margaret is the
daughter of Katherine de Hastang. Much the same might be said
respecting the claim that Margaret is the daughter of Margaret de
Audley.
Mr. Benjamin Wyatt Greenfield, one of the most respected Stafford
genealogists of the 19th century, has written, (id.) "Margaret de
Audley . . . married Ralph, Baron of Stafford, created Earl of
Stafford in 26 Edward Ill. 1351, and one of the Founders of the
Garter. Their youngest daughter (4) Margaret de Staffford married to
Sir John de Stafford, knt. of Amelcote, co. Stafford, second son of
Sir William de Stafford, knt. of Sandon and Bromeshall, co. Stafford,
who was descended from a younger son of Hervei Bagot and his wife
Milisent the great heiress of the feudal barony of Stafford, in the
reign of Richard I. . . . " Mr. Greenfield clearly and unequivocally
identifies Margaret de Stafford's mother as Margaret de Audley. As to
the precise evidence supporting Mr. Greenfield's Stafford pedigree, I
know not. It can only be said that he was one of the most accomplished
and respected genealogists of his era. He was undoubtedly a man who
took great care in his research. With this in mind, it is noted that
he prefaced his Stafford pedigree article, thusly: ". . . I therefore
venture to send you a descent, drawn from authentic sources, which
exhibits the connection of the Irish Staffords with the great English
family of that name, and the descent through that line in the
seventeenth degree of the late Duke of Wellington from King Edward
the First." Greenfield, B.W., The Gentlemen's Magazine, Descent of
the Duke of Wellington from the Blood Royal, through the Family of
Stafford (1853), Vol. 40, p. 379; [G404J_47] see also, Burke, J. B., A
Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct
Peerages (1866), p. 499. [G404S]
Those who choose to place reliance on Mr. Greenfield's
conclusions might note that George Edward Cokayne acknowledged his
preeminence as a genealogist, as well as the fact of he (Cokayne)
relied on Mr. Greenfield for his contributions to Mr. Cokayne's
treatment of the Stafford family in Complete Peerage (1896), Vol. 7,
p. 208, fn (a), p. 221, fn (a). [G404J_33]
While many authors, genealogists, and accomplished researchers
such as Frederick Lewis Weiss, Ancestral Roots of etc. (1992, 7th
ed.), p. 35; Douglas Richardson (RootsWeb, Gen-Medieval, 2002-04,
1017744586); Peter Sutton (Roots-Web: Gen-Medieval, 2000-07,
0963520998, and 0963525919); Leo van de Pas (http://
www.genealogics.org; Roots-Web: Gen-Medieval, 2002-04, 1017822304);
Jim Weber, The Phillips, Weber, Kirk & Stagg Families etc. (Online,
RootsWeb, 2009), WorldConnect Project, [G404J_93] and others, weigh in
on the side of Katherine de Hastang as being Margaret de Stafford's
mother, we are yet to learn of the precise nature or quality of the
contemporary evidence supporting this thesis. It is likewise true that
Mr. Greenfield does not give us the specifics of his sources; however,
he does assure us that his conclusions are "drawn from authentic
sources." We are left to imagine just what those sources might have
been. However, for those who might follow the course set by Mr.
Greenfield, comfort can be taken by his reputation as a genealogical
authority on the Stafford family. Of course, this does not mean, per
force, that F. L. Weiss (Ancestral Roots) and others are wrong. But
great credence is given here to Mr. Greenfield's work because much of
it occurred over many years and focused specifically on the Stafford
family.
In the absence of contemporary documentation or compelling
circumstantial evidence to the contrary, I have chosen to follow Mr.
B.W. Greenfield's attribution of Margaret de Audely as the mother of
Margaret de Stafford. This is not, however, a settled matter and it is
hoped the issue will receive more attention in the near future.
If anyone can provide me with a basis for abandoning Mr. B.W.
Greenfield's position that Margaret de Stafford is the daughter of
Margaret de Audley, please share your evidence and thoughts. There
must be hundreds, if not thousands, of genealogists and striving
family historians who would benefit from more certainty on this issue.
If I have overlooked, misread, or mistated the status of the evidence,
please let me know.
Respectfully,
Darrell McGowen
Douglas Richardson
You noted that in 1327 "a fine was levied between Ralph de Stafford
and Katherine [de Hastang] his wife, Querents, and Humphrey de
Hastang, Deforciant, whereby the manors of Calelond [i.e., Callilond
in Southill], Cornwall, and la Hide [in Coppenhall], co. Stafford,
were settled in fee tail on the said Ralph and Katherine. [Feet of
Fines, Divers Counties, 1 Ed. I I I . No. 7]."
As such, one has only to look at the subsequent history of these
properties to determine if Ralph de Stafford's daughter, Margaret, was
the child of this marriage. The following weblinks show that BOTH
properties were subsequently in the hands of Margaret's lineal heirs,
namely, the family of Willoughby, who were Lords Willoughby of Brook.
3. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53405
As such, Mr. Greenfield's comments withstanding, there doesn't seem to
be any doubt that Katherine de Hastang was the mother of Earl Ralph's
daughter, Margaret de Stafford.
I might add the following comment: Margaret de Stafford is thought to
have had two sons by her marriage to her distant cousin, John de
Stafford, Knt., of Bramshall and Amblecote, Staffordshire, namely
Humphrey de Stafford, Knt. (died 1413), and Ralph de Stafford, Esq.
(died 1410). Humphrey de Stafford was certainly legitimate, as he
inherited his father's lands. However, John Brandon posted the
following record from the A2A Catalogue some time ago which indicates
that Ralph, the other son of Margaret, was illegitimate:
Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent Archive Service, Staffordshire Rec.
Office: Phillipps Coll.: docs. relating to Staffordshire from the
collections of Sir Thomas Phillipps, 3764/169 (notarial instrument
dated 1373 of William de Nauhagh clerk, regarding the marriage of
Ralph de Stafford illegitimate son of Lady Margaret de Stafford to
Matilda daughter of John Hastang deceased in the church of St.
Bertelin) (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Patricia A. Junkin
When Hugh de Audley, father of Margaret died in 1347, Henry le Bysshe
was a witness at the inquest. Several sources indicate that a marriage
occurred between a Bysshe and a Stafford and there was a change in the
arms of Bysshe. The Bysshe and Burstowe family were connected by
marriage. In IPM of Ralph, Earl of Stafford. 1373. Surrey: “Porkle and
Stangrave. Tenements worth 100s yearly, similarly held of Richard de
Burstowe and Nicholas de Loveayne, as of their manor of Blecynglegh.”
Is there a full accounting of the children of Stafford?
Thank you.
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Douglas Richardson
You may wish to read the material on the descendants of Margaret de
Stafford and her husband, Sir John de Stafford, which is found in
Collections for a History of Staffordshire, n.s. Vol. 4 (1901), pp.
204-207. There is a helpful pedigree of their descendants on pg. 207
which may be viewed at the following weblink:
Margaret and Sir John de Stafford's son and heir is clearly identified
in this material as Sir Humphrey Stafford, who is the man who was
afterwards of Hooke, Dorset, who died in 1413. He is the ancestor of
the Willoughby family who were Lords Willoughby of Brook.
Margaret de Stafford's "illegitimate" son, Ralph Stafford (died 1410),
is not directly mentioned in this material. However, it appears that
at some point various Stafford family manors were settled on
Margaret's legitimate son and heir, Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1413),
and his heirs male, and failing male issue, the properties were to
revert to Humphrey Stafford, son of Ralph Stafford, "then lord of
Grafton." The relationship between Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1413)
and Humphrey Stafford, son of Ralph Stafford, of Grafton, is not given
in these records. But we know from the record dated 1373 I posted
earlier that Ralph Stafford (died 1410), of Grafton, was the
"illegitimate son of Lady Margaret de Stafford."
My feeling is that Ralph Stafford (died 1410) was a son of Sir John de
Stafford and his wife, Margaret de Stafford. However, it is unclear
why he would have been considered illegitimate, unless there was some
problem with his parents' marriage due to consanguinity. Whatever the
case, Ralph Stafford (died 1410) and his legitimate brother, Humphrey
Stafford (died 1413) were apparently of the same approximate age
given the records of their respective careers. Their descendants
allegedly bore the same coat of arms.
At the present time, I'm not certain what evidence exists which proves
that Margaret, wife of Sir John de Stafford, was the daughter of Ralph
de Stafford, Earl of Stafford, other than the passage of the manors of
Hyde (in Coppenhall), Staffordshire and Calliland (in Southill),
Cornwall to Margaret and Sir John's descendants. You can read many
things in print which are not easily substantiated in contemporary
records.
Be that as it may, the history of Hyde is somewhat obscure, as
indicated by comments found in Collections for a History of
Staffordshire, Vol. 8 (1887), pg. 127-128, which blandly states that
the manor of Hyde was "transferred" from the Earls of Stafford to the
Stafford family of Hooke, Dorset. See the following weblink for those
comments:
The reason for the transfer of Hyde to the Stafford family of Hooke is
not explained, except that the author says that Loxdale and Huntbache
"accept the tradition which says that 'Hyde after by daughters to the
Lords Stafford and Verneys." Mention of the Verney family here can
be explained, as the Verneys were the lineal heirs of the Willoughby
family, who in turn were the lineal heirs of the Stafford family of
Hooke, Dorset.
Douglas Richardson
I have one correction to make to my previous posts and one
clarification.
First the correction. I previously stated that "at some point various
Stafford family manors were settled on Margaret [de Stafford]'s
legitimate son and heir, Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1413), and his
heirs male, and failing male issue, the properties were to revert to
Humphrey Stafford, son of Ralph Stafford, "then lord of Grafton."
Actually the documents I cited indicate that the settlement of the
manors in question was made on Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1442)
(nicknamed "of the silver hand") and his heirs male, which Sir
Humphrey was the son and heir of Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1413).
Failing his male issue, the properties were to revert to his first
cousin, Humphrey Stafford (died 1419), "son of Ralph Stafford, then
lord of Grafton."
Second the clarification. I cited a translated copy of a contemporary
record which identifies Ralph Stafford, Esq. (died 1410) as being an
"illegitimate son of Lady Margaret de Stafford." This document comes
from the collection of Sir Thomas Phillipps. I believe the modern
transcript contains a mistranslation of the original Latin which
likely would have called Ralph the "naturalis filius" of Lady Margaret
de Stafford. In this time period, "naturalis filius" meant a son by
birth, not adoption. It did not mean illegitimate birth. In Sir
Thomas Phillipps' time period, however, a natural son would have been
an illegitimate son. This change in meanings over time has tripped
up other researchers and I see no reason why Sir Thomas Phillipps
might not have made a similar mistake.
It is fairly obvious that a "son by birth" would be the intended
meaning, as Lady Margaret de Stafford married her husband, Sir John de
Stafford, c.1337/8, and Sir John de Stafford survived until c.1362.
Given the chronology of Ralph Stafford's life, it seems fairly obvious
that he was born during the period of his parents' marriage. I might
also note that his descendants allegedly used the same coat of arms as
did Ralph's older brother, Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1413).
Next, there is additional evidence which indicates that Margaret, wife
of Sir John de Stafford, was the daughter of Earl Ralph de Stafford
and his 1st wife, Katherine Hastang. As I indicated above, Margaret
was married c.1337/8, as indicated by a series of lawsuits filed
against her and later her son, Humphrey Stafford (died 1413) regarding
various Stafford family manors in Staffordshire. Given the date of
her marriage, Margaret would necessarily be the daughter of Earl Ralph
de Stafford's 1st marriage to Katherine Hastang which took place
before 1327 (and probably much earlier). Earl Ralph did not marry his
2nd wife, Margaret de Audley, until 1336, one to two years before
Margaret's own marriage to Sir John de Stafford.
Next, my research indicates that Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 1413) was
almost certainly the father of Elizabeth, wife of Sir John Tuchet, 4th
Lord Audley (died 1408). In 1415, Elizabeth's son, Sir James Tuchet,
5th Lord Audley, obtained a dispensation to marry Margaret Roos, they
being related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred. In this case,
the relationship stems from a common descent from Sir Ralph de
Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, as follows:
1.Sir Ralph de Stafford, K.G., 1st Earl of Stafford
2. Margaret de Stafford, married c.1337/8 Sir John de Stafford.
3. Sir Humphrey Stafford, died 1413, married (1st) Alice de Grenville.
4. Elizabeth Stafford, married Sir John Tuchet, 4th Lord Audley.
5. Sir James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley, married Margaret Roos.
1. Sir Ralph de Stafford, K.G., 1st Earl of Stafford.
2. Beatrice de Stafford, married Sir Thomas Roos, 4th Lord Roos of
Helmsley.
3. William Roos, K.G., 6th Lord Roos, married Margaret Arundel.
4. Margaret Roos, married James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley.
This dispensation would provide additional confirmation that Margaret
de Stafford, wife of Sir John de Stafford, was the daughter of Earl
Ralph de Stafford. Taken together with the passage of the manors of
Calliland and Hyde to Margaret's descendants, I think the case is
quite good that Margaret was Earl Ralph de Stafford's daughter by
Katherine Hastang. I suspect other evidence exists which proves
Margaret's parentage, as Margaret has been assigned as a daughter of
Earl Ralph by many authorities.
Lastly, there is an interesting record pertaining to these people
published in Wiltshire Notes & Queries, 2 (1899): 385–388, which
material may be viewed at the following weblink:
This record indicates that in 1408 Edmund de Stafford, Bishop of
Exeter, requested that prayers be made for various family members,
including his parents, Sir Richard and Isabel de Stafford; his uncle,
Sir Ralph de Stafford, Earl of Stafford, as well as for Sir Humphrey
de Stafford [died 1413] and Elizabeth [his 2nd wife]; and for Sir
Humphrey's parents, John and Margaret de Stafford.
Bishop Edmund de Stafford would have been a first cousin of Sir
Humphrey de Stafford, as Sir Humphrey's mother, Margaret, was Bishop
Edmund's aunt.
Douglas Richardson
In an earlier message, I posted a record dated 1373 which indicated
that Ralph Stafford, son of Lady Margaret Stafford, was married in the
"church of St. Bertelin" to Maud Hastang.
The book, Stafford in Olden Times, by John Law Cherry, published in
1890, page 74 indicates that "the Council House here spoken of was
part of the little Church of St. Bertilin, which was afterwards used
as a Grammar School, and stood at the west end of St. Mary's Church
until the beginning of the present century.
As such, it would appear that St. Bertilin was an ancient church (or
chapel) located in the city of Stafford, Staffordshire.
JohnH
Was this church in Chebsey, Staffordshire, England
John H
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:0391843a-4278-4b95...@m31g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Douglas Richardson
The material below comes from VCH Stafford, 3 (1970): 303-309. It
mentions the Saxon church in Stafford dedicated to Saint Bertelin
which was adjacent to the College of St. Mary, Stafford. It was not
located in Chebsey, Staffordshire.
A picture of the remains of St. Bertelin's church may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/907071
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + +
THE COLLEGE OF ST. MARY, STAFFORD
The existence of a group of canons in Stafford before the Conquest is
attested only by Domesday Book. (fn. 1) In 1086 there were 13 of them,
described as the king's prebendary canons, who held 14 messuages in
Stafford and 3 hides, probably in Whitgreave and Butterton. (fn. 2)
By the beginning of Stephen's reign the church of Stafford, like that
of Penkridge, was held in chief by Jordan, clerk to Roger de Fécamp,
probably by grant of Henry I. (fn. 3) The two churches were given by
Stephen in 1136 to the bishop and cathedral churches of Coventry and
Lichfield; (fn. 4) the bishop's possession of them was confirmed by
the Pope in 1139, 1144, and 1152. (fn. 5) The church of Stafford, like
other royal property alienated by Stephen, returned to the Crown under
Henry II (fn. 6) who appointed Robert and probably also Robert's
predecessor, William de C., the first known deans of Stafford. (fn. 7)
Although a royal chapel, Stafford was still apparently not claiming
exemption from the bishop's authority as late as the end of the 12th
century. In 1199 one of the canons appealed to the protection of
either the bishop or the dean in a dispute about his prebendal lands.
(fn. 8) Four years later, however, another canon in similar
circumstances invoked the dean alone. (fn. 9)
There is no obvious explanation of the tradition, recorded in 1546 and
1548, that King John was the founder of the collegiate church. (fn.
10) Canons and deans of Stafford are known before his time, but it is
possible that the dedication to St. Mary was due to him: the first
mention of it belongs to his reign. (fn. 11) The earlier parts of the
present church date from the late 12th century. (fn. 12) Perhaps John
promoted the building and a new dedication. (fn. 13) This church may
have had a predecessor on the same site, or may have replaced as the
collegiate church the adjoining Saxon church dedicated to St. Bertelin
(fn. 14) which continued alongside St. Mary's and preserved a separate
though allied existence. (fn. 15)
JohnH
John H
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e714ac1d-337c-40ed...@a2g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Dear John ~
The material below comes from VCH Stafford, 3 (1970): 303-309. It
mentions the Saxon church in Stafford dedicated to Saint Bertelin
which was adjacent to the College of St. Mary, Stafford. It was not
located in Chebsey, Staffordshire.
A picture of the remains of St. Bertelin's church may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/907071
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + +
THE COLLEGE OF ST. MARY, STAFFORD
The existence of a group of canons in Stafford before the Conquest is
attested only by Domesday Book. (fn. 1) In 1086 there were 13 of them,
described as the king's prebendary canons, who held 14 messuages in
Stafford and 3 hides, probably in Whitgreave and Butterton. (fn. 2)
By the beginning of Stephen's reign the church of Stafford, like that
of Penkridge, was held in chief by Jordan, clerk to Roger de F�camp,