James Tuchet / Eleanor Holland
Peter Sutton
According to CP Vol. I p. 341 and XIV page 51, James Tuchet, Lord Audley who
was killed at the battle of Blore Heath on 23 September 1459, was married
secondly to Eleanor Holland (the illegitimate daughter of Edmund (Holland),
4th Earl of Kent by Constance daughter of Edmund, Duke of York). He
obtained a Papal Dispensation to remain in marriage contracted but not
consummated though related in the 3rd degree dat 16 Kal. Mar. 1429/30.
Does anyone know how they were related to one another?
Peter Sutton
Sutliff
which makes this a very difficult obstacle to overcome. Eleanor Holand's
ancestry is easy to document, so the best guess is that it would be via
Isabel as the remaining uncertain lines in James' pedigree are outside the
3rd degree of relationship.
Is this your thought also?
HS
""Peter Sutton"" <peter...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:BDEILJCPECNKFPKPCLKE...@ntlworld.com...
Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter:
It seems Complete Peerage left a slightly false impression when it
stated James Tuchet and and his 2nd wife, Eleanor Holand, were related
in the 3rd and 3rd degrees. One would normally assume that this means
the couple had ancestry in common. The dispensation itself is dated
14 Feb. 1430. An abstract of the record can be found in the Calendar
of Entries in the Papal Registers. The dispensation states James and
Eleanor were related in the 3rd degree of "affinity," not kinship.
Affinity involves a spiritual relationship, not blood descent. So, it
would appear there was no near blood kinship between James Tuchet and
Eleanor Holand, as suggested by Complete Peerage.
Oddly enough, Complete Peerage overlooked James Tuchet's dispensation
to marry his first wife, Margaret Roos. The dispensation for that
marriage is dated 24 Feb. 1415. It is also found in the Papal
Registers. That dispensation states that James and Margaret were
related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred. Their blood kinship
comes by way of common descent from Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of
Stafford. You can find my identification of James Tuchet's mother,
Elizabeth, as a Stafford in the archives of the newsgroup.
For interest's sake, I've posted below a copy of the information on
Sir James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley, which will appear in the
forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry, soon to be released. If
anyone is interested in ordering a copy of the book, they may contact
me at my e-mail address below.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
TUCHET FAMILY
1. JAMES TUCHET (or AUDLEY), Knt., 5th Lord Audley, of Markeaton, co.
Derby and Heleigh (in Audley), co. Stafford, Chief Justice of South
Wales, Chamberlain of South Wales, son and heir. He was born about
1398 (aged 10 in 1408). He married (lst) by papal dispensation dated
24 Feb. 1415 (they being related in the 3rd & 4th degrees of kindred)
MARGARET ROOS (or ROS), daughter of William Roos, Knt., K.G., 6th Lord
Roos of Helmsley (descendant of King Edward I), by Margaret, daughter
of John de Arundel, Knt., 1st Lord Arundel (descendant of King Henry
III) [see ROOS 10 for her ancestry]. They had one son, John [6th Lord
Audley], and two daughters, Margaret (wife of Thomas Dutton, Knt.) and
Elizabeth (wife of Edward Cobham, 6th Lord Cobham). He was summoned
to Parliament on 26 Feb. 1420/1, by writ directed Jacobo de Audley.
She was living Sep. 1423. He married (2nd) by papal dispensation
dated 14 Feb. March 1430 (they being related in the 3rd & 3rd degree
of affinity) ELEANOR HOLAND, illegitimate daughter of Edmund Holand,
K.G., Earl of Kent (descendant of King Edward I), by Constance,
daughter of Edmund of Langley, Duke of York (son of King Edward III)
[see HOLAND 6 for her ancestry]. They had three sons, Humphrey, Knt.,
Edmund (clerk) [Bishop of Rochester, Bishop of Hereford, Bishop of
Salisbury], and Thomas, and three daughters, Margaret (wife of Richard
Grey, Lord Powis), Anne (wife of Richard Delabere, Knt.), and
Constance (wife of Robert Whitney). In 1431 Margaret, Duchess of
Clarence, Joan, Duchess of York, and others petitioned Parliament
complaining that Eleanor being illegitimate calls herself the
“daughter and heir” of Edmund Holand. Eleanor brought
action in Court Christian to disprove her bastardy, but lost her suit.
SIR JAMES TUCHET (or AUDLEY), 5th Lord Audley, was defeated and slain
at the battle of Blore Heath, co. Salop 23 Sep. 1459, in command of
the Lancastrian forces.
References:
H.S.P. 6 (1872): 345-347 (1620 Vis. Devon) (Holland pedigree: "Elinor
[Holand] base dau. = James Lord Awdley"). J. C. Atkinson, Cartularium
Abbathiae de Rievalle (Surtees Soc., vol. 83) (1889), pp. 359-362.
H.S.P. 32 (1891): 10 (1563 Vis. Norfolk) (Awdeley pedigree: "James
Toochett, L. Audeley. [1] = Margaret da. of Thomas Lord Rose [Roos],
[2] = Eleanor base da. to Edmund, Earl of Kent & Salysbery") (Audley
arms: Gules, a fret or; Touchet arms: Ermine, a chevron gules). Cal.
Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal Letters 6 (1904): 511; 7 (1906):
304; 8 (1909): 175. I.H. Jeayes, Descriptive Catalogue of Derbyshire
Charters (1906), pp. 117, 200. C.P. 1 (1910): 341 (sub Audley).
Genealogist 28 (1912): 62 (pt. 1). Trans. Shropshire Arch. & Nat.
Hist. Soc. 4th ser. 3 (1913): 77-81. C.P. 3 (1913): 346; 6 (1926):
140; 11 (1949): 103, footnote e; 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 61 (sub Tuchet).
Genealogist n.s. 36 (1920): 9-22. Surtees Soc. 144 (1930): 163 (c.
1480-1500 Vis. North) (Roos pedigree: "Margareta [Roos] nupta domino
Awdeley"). C.P. 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 53-61 (sub Tuchet). Paget (1977),
pg. 403. P.A. Johnson, Duke Richard of York 1411-1460 (1988), pg. 12.
R.O. Bodine & T.W. Spalding, Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, wife of
Rev. John Owsley (1995), pg. 23.
Peter Sutton
As far as the dispensations are concerned I took CP at face value and did
not look up the Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers. I can see now
that there is no blood relationship between James Tuchet and Eleanor
Holland.
Concerning James's first marriage to Margaret Roos I had picked up on your
previous post Douglas, in that James Tuchet is descended from Ralph
Stafford's first marriage to Katherine de Hastang and Margaret Roos is
descended from Ralph Stafford's second marriage with Margaret de Audley.
In raising the question about a blood relationship between James Tuchet and
Eleanor Holland I was hoping that any answer might throw some more light on
the mother of John Tuchet, Lord Audley (b. 23/04/1371 d. 19/12/1408). She
would have been the only missing female in James ancestry which could have
given a possible close relationship with Eleanor Holland. But as there is
in fact no blood relationship it does not carry me any further forward.
Do you remember Douglas, we corresponded offline last year when I think we
came to the conclusion that John Tuchet's mother was likely to be Maud or
Matilda de Grey, daughter of Sir Reginald de Grey, Lord Grey of
Wilton-on-Way? However I have not been able to find any conclusive
documentary evidence for this assumption. I wonder if you have found out
anything new on this?
Regards
Peter Sutton
Douglas Richardson
Yes, I recall our discussion offline regarding the identity of James
Tuchet's paternal grandmother, Maud, wife of John Tuchet. According
to my research, Maud had three marriages in all, not two as usually
supposed. Maud married (1st) Richard Willoughby, Knt. (died 1369),
(2nd) John Tuchet (died 1372), and (3rd) John Daubridgecourt (died
1415).
According to an ancient pedigree of the Willoughby family found in the
Report on the Manuscripts of Lord Middleton (HMS, vol. 69) (1911):
505, Maud, wife of Richard Willoughby was "the daughter of Reginald,
and sister of Sir John de Grey"). Unfortunately, there doesn't
appear to be an available Reginald de Grey with a son, Sir John de
Grey, in this period. Reviewing available Grey families, though, it
seems that Maud was most likely the daughter of Roger (not Reginald)
de Grey, Knt., lst Lord Grey of Ruthin, who had two sons, John, Knt.,
and Reynold. The elder son, John, was a prominent man in this period.
He is very likely the individual called Maud's brother in the
Willoughby pedigree. All the same, this matter needs further study
before Maud's parentage is considered established.
For interest sake, I have posted below a copy of the information on
John Tuchet and his wife, Maud, from the forthcoming book, Plantagenet
Ancestry. This material corrects and upgrades the account of this
couple found in Complete Peerage.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - - -
TUCHET FAMILY
1. JOHN TUCHET, of Ashwell, Leegomery, etc., co. Derby, son and heir,
was a minor at his father's death in 1362 and still in 1365. He
served under the Earl of Pembroke in Poitou and Anjou in 1369. He
married before 1371 MAUD _____ (possibly GREY), widow of Richard
Willoughby, Knt. (died 1369). They had one son, John, Knt., 4th Lord
Audley. He had a license for an oratory at Merton for two years in
1371. In June 1372 he from England with the Earl of Pembroke with
reinforcements for Aquitaine. JOHN TUCHET was slain in the naval
battle off La Rochelle in the Bay of Biscay 23 June 1372. His widow
married (3rd) before September 1378 John Daubridgecourt (or
Dabrichecourt), Knt., K.G., of Cottesmore, Rutland, king's knight,
steward of the household of John of Gaunt, keeper of Calais Castle,
keeper of the Tower of London, Knight of the Shire for Derbyshire.
They had two sons, John and William, and five daughters, Joan (wife of
Hugh Willoughby), Joan (wife of John Cokayne, Knt.), Marion, Agnes and
Philippe. She died before 3 Nov. 1405. He accompanied Prince Thomas
to Ireland in 1408. Sir John Daubridgecourt left a will dated 20 July
1415, proved 8 Nov. 1415.
References:
G.F. Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841),
pp. clvii. G.W. Marshall, Vis. Notts (1569-1614) (1871), pg. 37. Wm.
Salt Arch. Soc. n.s. 8 (1905): 56. C.P. 1 (1910): 341. Report on the
Manuscripts of Lord Middleton (HMS, vol. 69) (1911): 505 ("Richard
Willughby .... marred Matilda, the daughter of Reginald, and sister of
Sir John de Grey"). Trans. Shropshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc. 4th
ser. 3 (1913): 77-81. Genealogist n.s. 36 (1920): 9-22. Register of
Edward the Black Prince 4 (1933): 421,548. VCH Rutland 2 (1935):
108-109. E.F. Jacob, Register of Henry Chichele Archbishop of
Canterbury 1414-1443 (Canterbury & York Soc., vol. 54) (1937): 650
(biog. Sir John Daubriggecourt, kt.). C.P. 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 53-61
(sub Tuchet). VCH Shropshire 11 (1985): 219. S. Payling, Political
Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of Nottinghamshire
(1991), pp. 33-34, chart pg. 242. Roskell 2 (1992): 729-731 (biog.
John Dabrichecourt). R.O. Bodine & T.W. Spalding, Ancestry of
Dorothea Poyntz, wife of Rev. John Owsley (1995), pg. 43.
> > "daughter and heir" of Edmund Holand. Eleanor brought
Peter Sutton
Many thanks for your reply and the information you provided.
The ancient pedigree of the Willoughby family found in the Report on the
Manuscripts of Lord Middleton you refer to was produced by Cassandra
Willoughby, daughter of Francis Willoughby, the natural philosopher, sister
of Thomas, first Lord Middleton, and the second wife of James Brydges, the
first Duke of Chandos.
She compiled a history of the Willoughbys of Wollaton. It is a small quarto
volume of paper bound in calf. It is entitled “An Account of the Willughby’s
of Wollaton, taken out of the Pedigree, old Letters, and old Books of
Accounts, in my Brother Sir Thomas Willoughby’s study, Dec., A.D. 1702 by
Cass[andra] Willoughby.”
Her narrative is somewhat confused as she mixes up Sir Richard II, III and
IV. She gives that Sir Richard III de Willoughby (the Chief Justice of the
King's Bench) and Isabel Morteyn had only 1 child Sir Richard Willoughby who
married Joane, the daughter of — Lord and Baron Grey of Rotherfield. She
continues that they had five sons and two daughters. Richard Willughby, the
eldest son, married Matilda, the daughter of Reginald, and sister of Sir
John Grey. He dyed the 29th of Edward the 3d, leaving no issue behind him.
She continues by saying Thomas Willughby, the second son, and Roger the
third son, also dyed without issue, so that the entail which Sir Richard
Willughby made of Riseley [Risley, co. Derby] and other lands An. D. 1337
brought the inheritance to Hugh Willughby, a priest, the fourth son of Sir
Richard, who not being allowed to marry, kept a mistris called Joane of
Riseley; by her he had a daughter named Felice, who married John Armstrong
of Thorpe, and a son called Hugh, who married Joane, the daughter of Sir
John Dabridgecourt. By this lady he had a son called Hugh Willughby of
Riseley, who married Isabell, the daughter of Sir Gervase Clifton. This Hugh
Willughby bore the arms of his mother viz, ermine, three bars humett, as
appears by his grave stone in Wilne Church [co. Derby], where the arms of
the Dabrigecourt’s is impaled with the Clifton’s. From this Hugh are
descended the Willughbys of Riseley.
In reality, according to Bloom, ("The Careers of Sir Richard II de
Willoughby and Sir Richard III de Willoughby, Chief Justice of King's Bench
(1338-1340) and the rise of the Willoughbys of Nottinghamshire" by Michael
R. Bloom - Exeter College Oxford - Thesis Submitted for the Degree of Doctor
of Philosophy - Trinity 1985.) Sir Richard Willoughby, the eldest son of the
Chief Justice (who didn't marry anyone called Grey) and Isobel de Morteyn,
was married three times. Firstly to someone called Constance, secondly to
Lucy sister of John, Lord Grey of Codnor, and third to Matilda daughter of
Reginald Lord Grey of Wilton-on-Way. Sir Richard IV Willoughby d.s.p. in
1369.
I certainly agree with you, Douglas, that John Tuchet's mother was more than
likely this Matilda or Maud de Grey the widow of Sir Richard IV Willoughby
and that she married three times. The widow of Sir John Tuchet beyond a
doubt married Sir John Dabridgecourt and the Willoughby family eventually
recovered part of Lady Maud's dower after the death of Sir John
Dabridgecourt (Bloom) - but who was she?
Assume that Cassandra Willoughby was nearly right when she said she was "the
daughter of Reginald, and sister of Sir John de Grey" and that this equates
with being a daughter of Roger (not Reginald) de Grey, Knt., lst Lord Grey
of Ruthin, who had two sons, John, Knt., and Reynold.
Maud gave birth to Sir John Tuchet on 23 April 1371. Sir John Tuchet her
husband died in June 1372 and some time later Maud married Sir John
Dabridgecourt and had 7 children. I cannot see that Maud could have been
born before 1340 and I would suspect if was between 1345 and 1350 to have
had 8 children after 1371.
Sir Roger de Grey died in 1352/3. His wife Elizabeth de Hastinges was born
between 1285 and 1290 (using information from CP) and therefore could not
have had a child born 1340 or later. In addition her supposed brother,
Reynold was 26 and more when his father died in 1352. If these dates are
correct Maud could not be the daughter of the 1st Lord Grey of Ruthin.
Turning to Bloom and Lucy the supposed sister of John Lord Grey of Codnor.
This could only refer to the 3rd Lord who was married before 4 Sept 1325 and
was of age before 1335. In various inquisitions his age in 1334/5 was given
as 24 and more, 28 and 30. Any sister of his would be an unlikely candidate
to be the second wife of Sir Richard IV Willoughby born in 1322. However,
she could be his daughter. She could also not be sister, but could be
daughter of Sir John 2nd Lord Grey of Rotherfield.
With regard to Maud the only Reynold Grey, IV Lord Grey of Wilton was born
in November 1311 and married Maud said to have been da. of Sir John
Botetourt (but which Sir John I don't know). He could have had a daughter
Maud born between 1340 and 1350 as indeed he could have had a son John.
However, whether he did or not I don't know. This still seems to be the
likely answer but I don't know of any other sources which will solve the
problem.
Regards
Peter Sutton