Can you tell me ... Please ?
Urania
Which King Childebert was the husband of Queen Ultrogothe ? (Ref. Guide
to church of St Germain-l'Auxerrois, Paris where their statues once were)
Who was the mother of THEODRADA, ABBESS OF ARGENTEUIL ? Her father was
Charlemagne. (Gallia Christiana 7/509)
Who was the mother of ODA ABBESS OF ARGENTEUIL ? Her father was Pepin &
her brother Charlemagne.) Gallia Christian 7 /509
Any suggestions, refernces welcome.
DavidBotts
http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de some time back - not sure how good their
research was.
Dave
Suzanne Doig
Well, the original message hasn't appeared on my server yet, but
here's the wives/concubines and children of Charlemagne, as given by
his contemporary biographer Einhard (cc.18-20)
<http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/einhard.html>
[= married, ~ concubine]
1~ NN
a. Pepin (the hunchback)
2= daughter of Desiderius, king of the Lombards. Repudiated after a
year.
3= Hildegard, 'a woman of high birth, of Suabian origin'.
b. Charles
c. Pepin
i. Bernard
ii. Adelaide
iii. Atula [F]
iv. Guntrada
v. Berthaid [F]
vi. Theoderada
d. Louis
e. Hruodrud [Rotrud]
f. Bertha
g. Gisela
4= Fastrada, 'a woman of East Frankish origin' [d.794]
h. Theoderada
i. Hiltrud
5~ NN
j. Ruodhaid [F]
6= Liutgard, 'an Alemannic woman' [m. aft 794 d. 4 June 800]
7~ Gersuinda, 'a Saxon' [m. after 800]
k. Adaltrud
8~ Regina [m. after 800]
l. Drogo
m. Hugh
9~ Ethelind
n. Theodoric
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4038/index.html
John Carmi Parsons
On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Suzanne Doig wrote:
> Well, the original message hasn't appeared on my server yet, but
> here's the wives/concubines and children of Charlemagne, as given by
> his contemporary biographer Einhard (cc.18-20)
> <http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/einhard.html>
>
> [= married, ~ concubine]
>
> 1~ NN
> a. Pepin (the hunchback)
Pepin's mother was Hmiltrud, a noble Frank whom some claim Charlemagne never
married. The eminent and respected Janet Nelson, a renowned English historian
of the Carolingian era, believes however that Charlemagne's union to Hmiltrud
was a true marriage, but that Einhard subsequently shaded events carefully to
make it appear that Charlemagne's first successful "real" marriage was to
Hildegarde. See Nelson's article, "Women at the Court of Charlemagne: A Case
of Monstrous Regiment?" in *Medieval Queenship*, ed. J.C. Parsons (New York:
St Martins, 1993), pp. 43-62, esp. 51. It's also doubted by some today that
Pepin was really a hunchback; Einhard may have made the statement to discredit
Pepin's claim to the throne (see the article by Janet Nelson cited BELOW, p.
180 note 42, where it is noted that before 792, Charlemagne's treatment of
Pepin "gives no clear hint that he [Pepin] was regarded as unthroneworthy").
> 2= daughter of Desiderius, king of the Lombards. Repudiated after a
> year.
This woman's name is sometimes given as Desideria, but Janet Nelson has very
recently published an article showing that the name Desideria arises from the
misreading of a chronicle. The chronicle states that King Desiderius sent
his "filiam desideratam" to Francia to marry Charlemagne, but this does not
necessarily indicate the bride's name; it can, and probably does, mean only
that Desiderius sent the "desired daughter" to Charlemagne. Nelson has good
reason to believe that this woman's name may well have been Gerberga or
Gerperga. See Nelson, "Making A Difference in Eighth-Century Politics: The
Daughters of Desiderius," in *After Rome's Fall: Narrators and Sources of
Early Medieval History," ed. Alexander C. Murray (University of Toronto Press,
1998), pp. 171-90, esp. 173, 183. Nelson also doubts the claim that the
Lombard-born queen was barren, which she points out arises only in the late
9th century; unless the queen were so very young that she had not yet reached
puberty, Nelson points out that a scant year of marriage was probably not a
long enough time to decide anything about her ability to bear children. On
Charlemagne's real reasons for repudiating this woman, see Nelson, "Women at
the Court of Charlemagne," p. 52.
> 3= Hildegard, 'a woman of high birth, of Suabian origin'.
> b. Charles
> c. Pepin
> i. Bernard
> ii. Adelaide
> iii. Atula [F]
> iv. Guntrada
> v. Berthaid [F]
> vi. Theoderada
> d. Louis
> e. Hruodrud [Rotrud]
> f. Bertha
> g. Gisela
Nelson, "Women at the Court of Charlemagne," p. 61, gives Hildegarde's
children as follows (from Werner's "Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen" in
Braunfels, ed., *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, vol. 4, pp.
403-83):
1. Charles, b. 772/73, d.v.p. 811, monk at Prum from 792.
2. Adelaide, b. 773, d. 774.
3. Rotrude, b. ca. 775, living 839; betrothed to Emperor
Constantine VI from 781 to 787; from ca 800 the mistress of
Count Roric, by whom she had a son Louis, d. 867, abbot of
St-Denis from 840
4. Pepin-Carloman, b. 777, d. 810; king of Italy 781.
5. Louis the Pious, b. 778, d. 840; king of Aquitaine 781.
6. Lothar (twin with Louis), b. 778, d. 779/80.
7. Bertha, b. 779/80, living 823; from 795 mistress of Angilbert, by
whom she had two sons, Nithard (b. 795/800, d. 844) and
Hartnid (b. 795/800, d. ?).
8. Gisella/Gisla, b. 781, living 800.
9. Hildegarde, b. 782, d. 783.
> 4= Fastrada, 'a woman of East Frankish origin' [d.794]
> h. Theoderada
> i. Hiltrud
As reported by Nelson, above, Werner states that Theoderada was born ca 785,
became Abbess of Argenteuil by 814 (i.e., in Charlemagne's lifetime) and was
still living in 844. Hiltrude was born ca 787 and was living in 800, but
nothing more seems to be known of her and it appears she died before
Charlemagne.
> 5~ NN
> j. Ruodhaid [F]
Born (conjecturally) ca 784, living 800. Fate unknown.
> 6= Liutgard, 'an Alemannic woman' [m. aft 794 d. 4 June 800]
>
> 7~ Gersuinda, 'a Saxon' [m. after 800]
> k. Adaltrud
Little seems to be known of this daughter.
> 8~ Regina [m. after 800]
> l. Drogo
> m. Hugh
Drogo was b. 801 and was a cleric by 818; abbot of Luxueil 820, bishop of
Metz 823 and imperial archchaplain 834; died 855. Hugh was b. 803-06, a
cleric also by 818; abbot of St-Quentin 822/23, imperial archchaplain 834,
died 844.
> 9~ Ethelind
> n. Theodoric
Theodoric was b. 807 and was a cleric by 818. Little more is known of
him, and he probably died in early adulthood. Werner and Nelson give the
mother's name as Adallinda, not Ethelind (Ethel- and Adal- are essentially
the same name element, meaning "noble").
By a concubine named Madelgard, Charlemagne had a daughter:
Ruothild, year of birth unknown; abbess of Farmoutier 840, died 852.
By unknown mothers, Charlemagne also had two other sons:
Ricbodo, b. 800/05, Abbot of St-Riquier 840, died 844.
Bernard, Abbot of Moutier-St-Jean 843.
So there were 20 children in all. Eight were by concubines (nine if you
count Pepin the alleged Hunchback as a bastard).
John Parsons
Suzanne Doig
Parsons) wrote:
>Pepin's mother was Hmiltrud, a noble Frank whom some claim Charlemagne never
>married. The eminent and respected Janet Nelson, a renowned English historian
>of the Carolingian era, believes however that Charlemagne's union to Hmiltrud
>was a true marriage, but that Einhard subsequently shaded events carefully to
>make it appear that Charlemagne's first successful "real" marriage was to
>Hildegarde.
I don't have any 'professional' perspective on this, but it seems
clear from Einhard that he is being very shifty about something. Pepin
and his mother are not listed among the rest of the family, but Pepin
is mentioned just a couple of paragraphs later in connection with the
conspiracy against his father. It is clear from the chronology that
Pepin must have been older than CM's other sons.
>Nelson, "Women at the Court of Charlemagne," p. 61, gives Hildegarde's
>children as follows (from Werner's "Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen" in
>Braunfels, ed., *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, vol. 4, pp.
>403-83):
>
> 1. Charles, b. 772/73, d.v.p. 811, monk at Prum from 792.
> 2. Adelaide, b. 773, d. 774.
> 3. Rotrude, b. ca. 775, living 839; betrothed to Emperor
> Constantine VI from 781 to 787; from ca 800 the mistress of
> Count Roric, by whom she had a son Louis, d. 867, abbot of
> St-Denis from 840
Einhard has her dying before her father - covering up 'the suspicions
entertained of their honour', as he so delicately put it?
John Carmi Parsons
On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Suzanne Doig wrote:
> On 27 Jan 1999 05:19:24 -0800, jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca (John Carmi
> Parsons) wrote:
>
> >Pepin's mother was Hmiltrud, a noble Frank whom some claim Charlemagne never
> >married. The eminent and respected Janet Nelson, a renowned English historian
> >of the Carolingian era, believes however that Charlemagne's union to Hmiltrud
> >was a true marriage, but that Einhard subsequently shaded events carefully to
> >make it appear that Charlemagne's first successful "real" marriage was to
> >Hildegarde.
>
> I don't have any 'professional' perspective on this, but it seems
> clear from Einhard that he is being very shifty about something. Pepin
> and his mother are not listed among the rest of the family, but Pepin
> is mentioned just a couple of paragraphs later in connection with the
> conspiracy against his father. It is clear from the chronology that
> Pepin must have been older than CM's other sons.
That Pepin was the oldest of CM's known children has not, to my knowledge,
ever been in doubt. The only one who might have been older than Pepin is the
shadowy daughter Hruodhaid, whose mother's name is unknown; but even Werner,
"Die Nachkommen," in Braunfels' *Karl der Grosse*, iv (table, no. I/11) has
Hruodhaid b. ca 784.
> >Nelson, "Women at the Court of Charlemagne," p. 61, gives Hildegarde's
> >children as follows (from Werner's "Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen" in
> >Braunfels, ed., *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, vol. 4, pp.
> >403-83):
> >
> > 1. Charles, b. 772/73, d.v.p. 811, monk at Prum from 792.
> > 2. Adelaide, b. 773, d. 774.
> > 3. Rotrude, b. ca. 775, living 839; betrothed to Emperor
> > Constantine VI from 781 to 787; from ca 800 the mistress of
> > Count Roric, by whom she had a son Louis, d. 867, abbot of
> > St-Denis from 840
>
> Einhard has her dying before her father - covering up 'the suspicions
> entertained of their honour', as he so delicately put it?
I am confessedly in error here. Nelson does not state that Rotrude died after
839; I took her "died after 839" to refer to Rotrude when in fact it refers to
her lover Count Roric, who according to Werner was alive on 1 March 839.
Werner (table, I/4) gives the date of Rotrud's death as 6 June 810, indeed
before her father, so Einhard wasn't trying to cover up anything in this case.
Nelson has some thoughts on CM's relations with his daughters in "Women at the
Court of Charlemagne."
John Parsons
Urania
Charlemagne and his complex private life ...