Daniel Eps, housholder, who died in 1620

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ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 10:51:10 AM2/24/17
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Looking at this GENI entry for Daniel Eppes, died June 1630 in the parish of St Olave, Hart Street, London, I note that his father is shown as "unknown Eppes" and his mother as "Thomazine Eppes."

https://www.geni.com/people/Daniel-Eppes/6000000007398990247

The Daniel who died 1630 was the ancestor of the New England Eppeses. He is shown in the GENI account above as the "half-sibling" of other Eppes folk, said to be the children of the same Thomazine by her "other" husband, "John Eppes the Elder, Gentleman, of New Inn."

It seems a bit odd that Thomasine would have married two Eppes men, one of them with an unknown Christian name, and with children by both; what this really does is highlight the fact that the Epes father of Daniel, died 1630, is likely unknown or uncertain.

I suggest his father might really be the "Daniel Eps, housholder" buried 2 Feb. 1619/20 at St Dunstan, Canterbury, co. Kent.

https://books.google.com/books?id=v4gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA119&dq=%22daniel+eps%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicst2VhKnSAhVFWSYKHUovDmMQ6AEIQzAH#v=onepage&q=%22daniel%20eps%22&f=false

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 11:07:51 AM2/24/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 7:51:10 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Looking at this GENI entry for Daniel Eppes, died June
> 1630 in the parish of St Olave, Hart Street, London, I
> note that his father is shown as "unknown Eppes" and
> his mother as "Thomazine Eppes."
>
> https://www.geni.com/people/Daniel-Eppes/6000000007398990247
>
> The Daniel who died 1630 was the ancestor of the New
> England Eppeses. He is shown in the GENI account above
> as the "half-sibling" of other Eppes folk, said to be
> the children of the same Thomazine by her "other"
> husband, "John Eppes the Elder, Gentleman, of New Inn."
>
> It seems a bit odd that Thomasine would have married
> two Eppes men, one of them with an unknown Christian
> name, and with children by both; what this really does
> is highlight the fact that the Epes father of Daniel,
> died 1630, is likely unknown or uncertain.

Yeah, this is just somebody's sloppy guesswork.

> I suggest his father might really be the "Daniel Eps,
> housholder" buried 2 Feb. 1619/20 at St Dunstan,
> Canterbury, co. Kent.

Any particular reason, other than just the name?

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 11:43:25 AM2/24/17
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> Any particular reason, other than just the name?
>
> taf

No, just the name's the same.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 4:00:40 PM2/24/17
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Just further guessing, and perhaps highly misguided, but I speculate the Daniel Eps who died at Canterbury in 1620 might be the one in this marriage license:

Epps, Daniel, of Mersham, glover, and Margaret Humfreye of St. Dunstan's, Cant., w. At Sturry. July 21, 1610.

https://books.google.com/books?id=e_UsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=%22margaret+humfreye+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG1OTlz6nSAhVL4CYKHdewCdwQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22margaret%20humfreye%20of%22&f=false

Daniel may have come to Canterbury because of his wife's association there. Also, as Margaret was a widow, perhaps Daniel himself was a widower, with a son named Daniel by some first wife.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 4:40:01 PM2/24/17
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In February 1624, the widow Margaret Epps _alias_ Umphrey, of the parish of St. Dunstan, Canterbury, consented to the marriage of her 24-year-old daughter, Margaret Umphrey, to John Uffington of Whitstable.

https://books.google.com/books?id=eNEEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA752&dq=%22margaret+epps%22+canterbury&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2uJai1anSAhXBdSYKHU_ICbgQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22margaret%20epps%22%20canterbury&f=false

Presumably this shows that the 1610 marriage of the glover of Mersham does pertain to the same man who died in Canterbury in 1619/20.

The Letters of Administration for the 1630 Daniel Epps of St. Olave, Hart Street, mentions his creditor "Elizabeth Peter," surely his wife's mother, Elizabeth nee Cooke, widow of Edmund Reade, and currently wife of the Rev. Hugh Peter, the Regicide-to-be. Is a death date known for Elizabeth (Cooke) (Reade) Peter?

https://books.google.com/books?id=G84gAAAAIAAJ&q=eppes+olave&dq=eppes+olave&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia2Njr1anSAhWEVyYKHeLfBPcQ6AEIMzAF

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 5:03:45 PM2/24/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 1:40:01 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> The Letters of Administration for the 1630 Daniel Epps of St. Olave,
> Hart Street, mentions his creditor "Elizabeth Peter," surely his wife's
> mother, Elizabeth nee Cooke, widow of Edmund Reade, and currently wife
> of the Rev. Hugh Peter, the Regicide-to-be. Is a death date known for
> Elizabeth (Cooke) (Reade) Peter?

Taking a quick look, the following (p. 85) would seem to suggest she was still living in 1677, yet her oldest child was born ca. 1595, so this seems unlikely.

https://books.google.com/books?id=GnwqAAAAYAAJ

taf

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 5:13:15 PM2/24/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 1:00:40 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Just further guessing, and perhaps highly misguided,

I don't think the speculation regarding Daniel Eps of Canterbury is misguided, but I do think we need something more than the name Daniel to link the Canterbury man to the London one. Admittedly a family that used the name Daniel is more likely to use it again, but it is not a rare name such as Gamaliel that is likely to be somewhat distinctive, and thus it is a big leap to connect one Daniel to another without anything more than a common name to go by.

Of course, it having been suggested, I have little doubt it will now appear in geni.com or one of its kin in short order.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 5:26:05 PM2/24/17
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> Taking a quick look, the following (p. 85) would seem to suggest she was still living in 1677, yet her oldest child was born ca. 1595, so this seems unlikely.
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=GnwqAAAAYAAJ
>
> taf

The one living in 1677 was the mentally-ill second wife, 'Mrs.' Deliverance Sheffield, I think.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 5:29:17 PM2/24/17
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I find Daniel to be a little more distinctive at this period than some names -- for instance, I think Samuel was more commonly used than Daniel this early.

But, of course, better proof ought to be found for it to be more than a theory.

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 5:48:32 PM2/24/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 2:29:17 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> I find Daniel to be a little more distinctive at this period than some names
> -- for instance, I think Samuel was more commonly used than Daniel this
> early.

Maybe a little more common, but neither was all that rare. Even were it an indication that the two belonged to the same family, what's to say they were not uncle and nephew, or cousins? You don't even have any evidence that they lived in the same place. No, you can't just find someone with the same name and conclude one was father of the other. (Well, you can . . . )

> But, of course, better proof ought to be found for it to be more than
> a theory.

I think your earlier characterization was closer to the mark - 'guess' rather than 'theory'. The latter implies it is a reconstruction that that best explains the evidence, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence.

taf

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 5:51:28 PM2/24/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 2:26:05 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Taking a quick look, the following (p. 85) would seem to suggest she was
> > still living in 1677, yet her oldest child was born ca. 1595, so this
> > seems unlikely.

> The one living in 1677 was the mentally-ill second wife, 'Mrs.' Deliverance
> Sheffield, I think.

Ah, I misread what was being said about his wives. The author places the death of Elizabeth after 6 Mar. 1636/7 and suggests she died in 1637 or 1638. (p. 12)

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 6:13:43 PM2/24/17
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> Maybe a little more common, but neither was all that rare. Even were it an indication that the two belonged to the same family, what's to say they were not uncle and nephew, or cousins? You don't even have any evidence that they lived in the same place. No, you can't just find someone with the same name and conclude one was father of the other. (Well, you can . . . )
>

Of course, Epps is not a common surname, and Canterbury and London are close, but thanks for _schooling_ me, Todd, about the dangers of genealogical guessing. I'm sure I just lost my head and went waaay out there on a shaky limb, forgetting all the rules that the super-cautious chant at every turn.

It is a believable theory that a man named Daniel Epps who died quite young in 1630 was the son of another man named Daniel Epps, who died in 1620. In the absence of anything proven.

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 6:49:25 PM2/24/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 3:13:43 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> It is a believable theory that a man named Daniel Epps who died quite young
> in 1630 was the son of another man named Daniel Epps, who died in 1620. In
> the absence of anything proven.

'Believable' isn't exactly the most stringent of standards for genealogy.

taf

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 6:56:38 PM2/24/17
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Just to clarify, it is also believable that a Daniel who died in 1620 could be uncle of a Daniel who died in 1630. It is also believable that a Daniel who died in 1620 could be grandfather of a Daniel who died in 1630. It is also believable that a Daniel who died in 1620 could be cousin of a Daniel who died in 1630. It is also believable that a Daniel who died in 1620 in Canterbury is entirely unrelated to a Daniel who died in 1630 in London. There just is no bases for preferring one of these over another.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 7:07:34 PM2/24/17
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Well, sure, none of this is proven.

But maybe the dire uncertainty of it all will provoke you to untold hours of painstaking genealogical research, thus yielding the correct answer.

In which case, my work here will be done!

taf

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Feb 24, 2017, 7:21:24 PM2/24/17
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Funny you should say that. I have been down that road before. I did not pick the name Gamaliel at random. Rather, in seeking a man of that name, with an uncommon surname, I spent untold hours researching a Gamaliel of the previous generation with the same surname. It yielded the correct answer, which was that there was no connection between the two whatsoever.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 24, 2017, 7:31:33 PM2/24/17
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> Funny you should say that. I have been down that road before. I did not pick the name Gamaliel at random. Rather, in seeking a man of that name, with an uncommon surname, I spent untold hours researching a Gamaliel of the previous generation with the same surname. It yielded the correct answer, which was that there was no connection between the two whatsoever.
>
> taf

Right, but you only gained that painful knowledge _after_ the untold hours of the Gamaliel research.

The untold hours on the Daniel Eppes vs. Daniel Epes matter begin .... NOW.

Be sure to report back on what you find.

Jan Wolfe

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Feb 25, 2017, 12:31:05 AM2/25/17
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The will index at https://wills.canterbury-cathedral.org/ lists both a probate copy will and an original will for a Daniel Epse in 1619 in the Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury:
Will Epse Daniel Canterbury St. Dunstan 1619 1619 PRC/17/61/265 PRC/16/164 E/2

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 25, 2017, 9:59:01 AM2/25/17
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On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 12:31:05 AM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> The will index at https://wills.canterbury-cathedral.org/ lists both a probate copy will and an original will for a Daniel Epse in 1619 in the Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury:
> Will Epse Daniel Canterbury St. Dunstan 1619 1619 PRC/17/61/265 PRC/16/164 E/2

Good find. I didn't think of "Epse" as a spelling.

taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 10:40:55 AM2/25/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 9:31:05 PM UTC-8, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> The will index at https://wills.canterbury-cathedral.org/ lists both a probate copy will and an original will for a Daniel Epse in 1619 in the Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury:
> Will Epse Daniel Canterbury St. Dunstan 1619 1619 PRC/17/61/265 PRC/16/164 E/2

The problem is that even if he names a son Daniel, we are still left with nothing but a 'name's-the-same' link. It is probably asking too much for him to name a "son Daniel of the parish of St Olave in London" (not that I would complain if he did).

taf

Jan Wolfe

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Feb 25, 2017, 12:37:46 PM2/25/17
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That's a nice thing about the index. I just typed "Eps" in the surname search window.

The Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury original wills are available as digitized images to people using a computer at a Family History Center (and, I think, also to LDS members using any computer). I think the will of Daniel Epse would be in the set at https://familysearch.org/search/film/004990075. This is the link from the catalog entry for Original wills A-Y, 1619 A-K 1620, Family History Library British Film 1042759, described in the FHL catalog at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/387111.

The probate copies are available on films. I think the probate copy of the will of Daniel Epse would be in Regd. copy wills, v. 61, 1612-1622, Family History Library British Film 188959, described in the FHL catalog at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/232273.

taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 2:15:16 PM2/25/17
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I note there are two Chancery pleadings involving a Daniel Epps at the start of the century.

Daniel Epps v. Thomas & Elizabeth Footer 2/JasI/E5/65 (trade matters, 1603-1625)

William Anderson v. Daniel Eppes C 2/JasI/A1/3 (accounts, 1603-1625)

Unfortunately, no more details are provided in the Catalogue, so it is even uncertain if this is the London or the Canterbury man, or someone else.

taf

taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 2:32:19 PM2/25/17
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On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 7:51:10 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Looking at this GENI entry for Daniel Eppes, died June 1630 in
> the parish of St Olave, Hart Street, London, I note that his
> father is shown as "unknown Eppes" and his mother as "Thomazine
> Eppes."
>
> https://www.geni.com/people/Daniel-Eppes/6000000007398990247
>
> The Daniel who died 1630 was the ancestor of the New England
> Eppeses. He is shown in the GENI account above as the "half-
> sibling" of other Eppes folk, said to be the children of the
> same Thomazine by her "other" husband, "John Eppes the Elder,
> Gentleman, of New Inn."

Doing some more digging, John and Thomazine are the known parents of three immigrants to Kent Co., Virginia. Presumably someone is operating under the assumption that all immigrants of the same surname must be siblings.

taf

taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 2:51:47 PM2/25/17
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On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 9:37:46 AM UTC-8, Jan Wolfe wrote:

> The Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury original wills are
> available as digitized images to people using a computer at
> a Family History Center (and, I think, also to LDS members
> using any computer).

They have also been abstracted in the Tyler Index to Kent Wills, which is on Ancestry. There are three abstracts, two written in different hands and one typed that differ slightly but not significantly, and I have harmonized the three here:

Dated 31 Jan. 1619, prov. 3 Feb. 1619 by Margaret Epse, relict

Daniel Epse of St. Dunstans.

Soul to God. Buried in churchyard St. Dunstans.

My wife Margaret executrix on condition that she with her son in law William Umphrey/Humphrie become bound to William Epse my own brother within four days after my decease at this now dwelling house in £60 for the payment of these legacies herinafter bequeathed.

To my above said brother William Epse £5 and to his daughter Agnes Epse £5 and one silver cup. To my brother Samuel Epse 10/-. To my brother George Epse 10/- To my sister Agnes Ward 10/- To my sister An[ne] Smith 5/- and I forgive her 5/- that she oweth me.

I forgive WIlliam Robbison 7/- of that 12/- that he oweth me. Thomas Johnson of St. Dunstans, overseer, and for his pains I give him 5/-

All other goods and chattels to my wife being executrix.

Witnesses: John CLaye, Thomas Johnson (mark), William Umphrey (mark), Daniel Martin (mark)

taf


taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 3:06:12 PM2/25/17
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There is also a will in the Tyler Index for Margaret Eps:

Dated 4 Mar. 1630 Prob 2 April 1631

Margaret Eps of St Dunstans, co. Kent, widow

Soul to God. Body to earth.

To y daughters Susan Tatnall, wife of William Tatnall & Sarah, wife of Benjamin Done (? Dove) all my household stuff equally.

To Ann jordan my servant in regard that she hath not a cow which formerly I had intended to bestow upon her for that I consider she had no feeding for a cow, I give her £8.

To William Humfrey of Harbledown, co. Kent a pair of new home made sheets.

To my son in law Benjamin Done and his heirs forever, all my part of interest I have in the house wherein now Elias Dressar the wheelwright dwells conditionally that the said Benjamin pay to his brother William Tatnall £9.

To the 5 children of the aforesaid William Humphrey 12d apiece. To the said William's wife 12d.

The £8 which I gave unto Ann Jordan to be paid t her when she is 21.

Benjamin Done and William Tatnall executors.

Wit: James Penny, Richard Drayton, Thomas Beson

Proved 2 April 1631 by Benjamin Dove and William Tatnall.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 25, 2017, 5:39:33 PM2/25/17
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Oops, ... well there goes that theory. But this may at least help in the wider tracing of the Epes family.

taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 5:45:27 PM2/25/17
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On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 2:39:33 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Oops, ... well there goes that theory. But this may at least help in
> the wider tracing of the Epes family.

In all, this index has more than a dozen Epps wills from the period, although the 1619 man is the only Daniel. It might be worth tracking down the siblings.

That being said, Daniel's wife was from Essex, so perhaps that is the better place to be looking.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 25, 2017, 10:10:20 PM2/25/17
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> That being said, Daniel's wife was from Essex, so perhaps that is the better place to be looking.
>
> taf

Well, no, it seems clear these Epeses must be from the Kentish family of that name:

https://books.google.com/books?id=WDpOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA8&dq=reade+banks+epps&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix556D5KzSAhVJfiYKHTlRDmcQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=reade%20banks%20epps&f=false

taf

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Feb 25, 2017, 11:28:02 PM2/25/17
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On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 7:10:20 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, no, it seems clear these Epeses must be from the Kentish family
> of that name:

There certainly is a complex set of interrelationships here, but the Lydia Bankes mentioned in the note seems to be linked to Daniel Epes through his mother. I would suggest that the 'brother' Eps named in this will is the John Epes who witnessed it, and the he is father of "cozen [i.e. nephew] John Epps the younger" given "my little roane nagge". I am not sure how much weight to give a document that doesn't even mention Daniel Epps in placing him in Kent.

taf

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:19:57 AM2/26/17
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OK, now this really is interesting. The John Epes who witnessed the will of Caleb Bankes "of Ashiliford" is probably the John Epes of Ashford who appears in the 1619 Kent visitation pedigree of Allen Epes of the Isle of Thanet, which runs as follows:

John Epes of Lydd, Kent

1) Allan Epes
1A) William Epes of Maidstone, Kent, d.s.p.m.
1B) Thomas Epes, m. Mary, daughter and heiress of Lawrence Stepeney of Lydd
1Ba) William Epes
1Bb) Allan Epes (informant), living near St. Johns, Isle of Thanet, m. Mary, daughter of Paul Claybroke of Nash Court
1Bbi) Paul Epes, aged 5 in 1618
1Bbii) Mary Epes
1C) John Epes of Ashford
1Ca) John Epes
1Cb) Daniel Epes
1Cc) William Epes
1Cd) Francis Epes
1Ce) Edward Epes
2) William Epes, d.s.p.
3) Thomas Epes of New Romney, Kent
3A) William Epes of New Romney
3Aa) William Epes, living, unmarried in 1618

as far as I can tell, this pedigree has not been published, although a continuation of the Thanet line appears here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=AKxCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA53

Bringing us full circle, the Frances Epes here appears to be he who was baptized 15 May 1597, at Ashford, son of none other than the John and Thomazine with whom this thread started.

So, we have a John Epes, associated with the Bankes family, who had a son Daniel. The Bankes family was associated with the Reade family, a member of whom Daniel married, and a Bankes called Daniel jr her cousin, even though the Reade connection would appear to be indirect (a Bankes sister married Thomas Reade, brother of the mother of this Daniel). As skeptical as I was at the start, the combination of the Bankes will, the subsequent Bankes kinship and the Kent visitation have well nigh convinced me that the geni.com pedigree was on the right track, and we have spent a lot of time reinventing the wheel.

One caveat, though - son Daniel is not named in the will of John, and this has been taken to imply that he had died by 1626, but I am not sure this need be the case.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 10:34:12 AM2/26/17
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I'm confused about where you found the Allen Epps pedigree since you say it's never been published and _also_ that it's in the 1619 Kent visitation.

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 11:13:02 AM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 7:34:12 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I'm confused about where you found the Allen Epps pedigree since you say
> it's never been published and _also_ that it's in the 1619 Kent visitation.

A letter from Thomas Duke, Rouge Dragon Pursuivant, of the College of Arms, to a descendant of Francis Epes of Virginia can be seen here and explicitly sources the material to the 1619 Kent Visitation:

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=94174438&PIpi=115259658

I have no explanation as to why this pedigree is not included in either of the published editions of the Visitation. One of them was a serialized compilation that consisted of a mix of visitation, probate and parish register data, is a bit of a muddle and appears never to have seen completion. The other, though, is a standard format Harleian Society issue based on a copy of the Visitation in the possession of Francis Burke, Somerset Herald, and confirmed against the copy that is BL Harleian MS 1106, while they also include variations from BL Stowe 618 and BL Harleian 6138. The Epes pedigree simply isn't there. It is unclear if the copies are not independent of each other and that once the Epes pedigree was skipped in the first copy this error was replicated in the others, if this pedigree was only added to the copy in the college of Arms after the surviving copies were made, whether the Burke copy is missing this pedigree and the editors in confirming it against other copies failed to notice the presence of the pedigree missing from Burke, if this was a mistake made at the stage of editing the book. (I suppose someone could have forged the letter, but that seems unlikely to me.)

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:03:46 PM2/26/17
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Great find, taf. So apparently there was a contemporary pedigree showing John Eppes with a son Daniel, even though there is no baptismal record for such a son, nor is a son Daniel found in John's will.

The Lydia Banks letter is additional proof, apparently. Is she the Daughter Liddia in the 1597 will of Caleb Banks given in that link above? Caleb's will mentions "Brother Epps and my sister" and "cousin Mapplesden," and weren't the Fishers (of whose family was Thomasine, wife of John Epps) connected to the Mapplesdens somehow? Was Caleb Banks' wife a Fisher, sister of the wife of John Epps?

Lydia's 1672 letter to Daniel Epps of New England specifically calls him "Coussen," and says..."I very well remember you from a child" ...and "I well remember your family of ye Eppes, for I was brought up with them from my youth ..." It's a bit of a stretch that the Lydia writing in 1672 was the one named in the 1597 will of Caleb Banks, but not impossible if she was an infant at her father's death.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:20:49 PM2/26/17
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No, apparent the Caleb Banks whose will was dated 1597 was married to Margaret EPPS, while his son John Banks (married a ... Fisher!) had the daughter Lydia who came to New England for a time and was the "coussen" of Daniel Epps of New England in 1672:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zNxsv5Ul_9wC&pg=PA263&dq=%22alexander+fisher%22+maidstone&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIs5H8oa7SAhXH6yYKHRfnA7wQ6AEIMzAF#v=onepage&q=%22alexander%20fisher%22%20maidstone&f=false

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:29:05 PM2/26/17
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No, darnit, that isn't exactly right either.

The NEHGS note on Banks shows that "coussen" Lydia Banks's father John Banks (d. 1642; married Mary Fisher, daughter of Alexander Fisher) was a brother of the Caleb Banks who married Margaret Epps.

Nonetheless, Lydia of the 1672 letter would have been a descendant of the Fisher family, which would make her a cousin of Daniel Epps of New England, ... but only if he was descended from the John Epps who married Thomasine Fisher (who would be kin of Mary Fisher, wife of John Banks).

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:29:14 PM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:03:46 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> The Lydia Banks letter is additional proof, apparently. Is she the Daughter
> Liddia in the 1597 will of Caleb Banks given in that link above? Caleb's
> will mentions "Brother Epps and my sister" and "cousin Mapplesden," and
> weren't the Fishers (of whose family was Thomasine, wife of John Epps)
> connected to the Mapplesdens somehow?

Thomazine was daughter of Katherine Maplesden. Waters published the will of George Maplisden, who names his sister Katherine Fisher and her daughter Thomazine Eppes. The Maplesden and Fisher pedigrees in 1619 Kent both show the marriage. Neither shows Thomazine, although Peter Maplesden is shown marrying Katherine, daughter of John Epse of Ashford. [Thanks to an off-list correspondent for the Waters info!]

https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalglea02byuwate#page/1290/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofkent00camd#page/156/mode/2up/ [and two pages later]

> Was Caleb Banks' wife a Fisher, sister of the wife of John Epps?

Certainly a possibility. Another intermarriage appears in 1633 London, where John Banks married Mary Fisher (sister of Thomazine, and likewise left a legacy by George Maplisden) and had a son Caleb (not the same Caleb). I think Caleb's wife has to be a Fisher. The will of Robert Allarde refers to "my sister Fisher the elder, my aunt Maplesden and my cousins John, Edward, and Richard Maplesden, her sons George Maplesden the elder, my sister Gouldsmith, my cousin Peter Maplesden, my cousin John Fisher, my cousin John Eppes and his wife, my cousin Caleb Bancke and his wife and my cousins Katherine and Mary Fisher daughters of the said sister Fisher." This is clearly a Fisher/Maplesden family grouping, and he only names the wives of Epes, known to have married a Fisher, and of Bankes, who as we have seen calls John Epes his brother and John the younger his cozen. Waters shows Caleb married to Margaret Epes, but I think this is wrong, that she was Margaret Fisher, based on the Allarde will.


> Lydia's 1672 letter to Daniel Epps of New England specifically calls him
> "Coussen," and says..."I very well remember you from a child" ...and "I
> well remember your family of ye Eppes, for I was brought up with them
> from my youth ..." It's a bit of a stretch that the Lydia writing in 1672
> was the one named in the 1597 will of Caleb Banks, but not impossible if
> she was an infant at her father's death.

I am not sure where this Lydia fits in - she could even be related through John Banks and Mary Fisher of the London Visitation, rather than through Caleb's wife.

taf

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:34:17 PM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:29:14 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:

> The will of Robert Allarde refers to "my sister Fisher the elder, my
> aunt Maplesden and my cousins John, Edward, and Richard Maplesden,
> her sons George Maplesden the elder, my sister Gouldsmith, my cousin
> Peter Maplesden, my cousin John Fisher, my cousin John Eppes and his
> wife, my cousin Caleb Bancke and his wife

Sorry, that should be Caleb "Banckes".

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:39:46 PM2/26/17
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Based on the NEHGS article on Banks ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=zNxsv5Ul_9wC&pg=PA263&dq=%22alexander+fisher%22+maidstone&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIs5H8oa7SAhXH6yYKHRfnA7wQ6AEIMzAF#v=onepage&q=%22alexander%20fisher%22%20maidstone&f=false

these are the cousinships I get:

Alexander Fisher

Thomasine Fisher = John Epps

Daniel Epps = Martha Reade

Daniel of New England

________

Alexander Fisher

Mary Fisher = John Banks (d. 1642)

Lydia Banks

So Daniel Epps and Lydia Banks were 1st cousins one removed, being descendants of the sisters Thomasine and Mary Fisher, daughter of Alexander Fisher?

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:48:09 PM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:29:05 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> The NEHGS note on Banks shows that "coussen" Lydia Banks's father John
> Banks (d. 1642; married Mary Fisher, daughter of Alexander Fisher) was
> a brother of the Caleb Banks who married Margaret Epps.

Waters includes two relevant wills. The 1641 will of John Bankes of London includes a 1642 codicil that mentions a house he bought in Maidstone, Kent, of Mrs. Fisher, which was to go to his wife Mary during her life, then to his daughter Lydia during her life, then to his son Caleb. This is clearly the Joh of the 1633 London pedigree. Then he has the 1669 will of Caleb Bankes of Maidstone, Kent, who leaves "my messuage, &c, in Maidstone" to his sister Lydia. (He was father of Sir John Banks, Baronet, so this family may have received more coverage than I have found to date.) Clearly this is the Lydia of the Epes correspondence.

taf

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 12:53:50 PM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:39:46 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> So Daniel Epps and Lydia Banks were 1st cousins one removed, being
> descendants of the sisters Thomasine and Mary Fisher, daughter of
> Alexander Fisher?

Yes. Further, Lydia's sister, Priscilla Banks, married Thomas Reade, brother of Daniel's mother.

taf

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 1:08:57 PM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:29:14 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:

And again, a typo obscured this:

> The will of Robert Allarde refers to "my sister Fisher the elder, my
> aunt Maplesden and my cousins John, Edward, and Richard Maplesden, her
> sons George Maplesden the elder

should read:

"John, Edward, and Richard Maplesden, her sons, George Maplesden the elder" - 'her sons' refers to the aforementioned John, Edward and Richard, not to their cousin George.

taf

leslie...@gmail.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 1:32:01 PM2/26/17
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There's a detailed study of John Epes of Ashford
and his wife Thomasine Fisher here:

http://www.poythress.net/Epes.html

Their sons Francis, Peter and William went to Virginia.
They had a cousin John Fisher who also went to Virginia
- he has a royal descent, outlined in Magna Carta Ancestry.

This study also says that they had a son Daniel who died
1619-25.

Leslie

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 1:43:07 PM2/26/17
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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 10:32:01 AM UTC-8, lma...@att.net wrote:

> This study also says that they had a son Daniel who died
> 1619-25.

Yes, I saw that. This is clearly a deduction from 1) his presence in the 1619 visitation; 2) his absence from the will of John Epes. Admittedly, his listing of sons to succeed his wife is disconcerting.

I noe it does confirm what I suspected about Margaret, wife of Caleb Bankes:

"John Epps of Ashford, gent, says that Caleb Banks owed him £100 and in addition the deponent had stood surety for him to Roger Kemp for a debt of £200. Kemp has since brought a case against the deponent for recovery. Margaret Banks is the sister of the deponent’s wife and, because of that, he assigned the deponent three leases in order to satisfy his debt. When he died Caleb Banks’ estate amounted to £1500 or £1600. (Deponent signs.)"

It would help if there wasn't a whole web of intermarriages here. The Robert Allarde who names his sister Fisher the elder and his aunt Maplesden and cousin Peter Maplesden also explicitly says his wife is sister of two Fisher men, so it is not as simple as him marrying the Maplesden sister of Katherine (Maplesden) Fisher - there must be another intermarriage.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 2:45:13 PM2/26/17
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> Yes. Further, Lydia's sister, Priscilla Banks, married Thomas Reade, brother of Daniel's mother.
>
> taf

Right, I had forgotten about that. I guess that other, vague relationship wouldn't have been enough on its own for Lydia to call Daniel Epps her cousin.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 26, 2017, 3:01:05 PM2/26/17
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> Right, I had forgotten about that. I guess that other, vague relationship wouldn't have been enough on its own for Lydia to call Daniel Epps her cousin.

What I mean is that Lydia Banks's status as the sister-in-law of Thomas Reade wouldn't have been enough, on its own, for her to call Daniel Epps "her cousin."

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 4:57:24 PM2/26/17
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I agree, being sister-in-law of an uncle would not make them 'cousins'. Unfortunately, given the web of intermarriages, it is hard to exclude the possibility of some other relationship.

taf

taf

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Feb 26, 2017, 6:00:54 PM2/26/17
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For further confirmation of the Caleb Banks/Margaret Fisher marriage, see the Fissher pedigree int he 1592 Kent Visitation, which states: "Alexander Fyssher of Horelepoole in Detlinge in the saide Countie gent Sonne and heire of John maried Katherin daughter of Peter maplesden of Maydenstone aforesaid, and by her had issue John his eldist Sonne, George, second Sonne, Elizabethe Died yonge, Elizabethe second Daughter maried Leverwoode Clerke, Thomazin maried to John Epes, gent, Margaret maried to Calebb Bankes, Katherin, Anne, and Marye, unmaried."

There is also a Fisher pedigree in the 1574 visitation, but if follows the line of Alexander's uncle and not his. It ends with Robert and Walter, apparently those named as wife's brothers by Robert Allarde. They had no obvious Maplesden ancestry. The half-sister of Robert and Walter Fisher, another Thomazin Fisher, married to George Maplesden, explaining why Peter Maplesden would have been called cousin by Allarde, but this does not explain 'aunt Maplesden'.

Also in the 1574 visitation is a pedigree of Bettenham, which trace's Alexander's mother back several more generations. It includes a Bettenham/Sandes marriage that can then be traced in the 1574 Sandes pedigree. There is a lot of new ancestry here for Daniel Epes were he son of John and Thomazin.

taf

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 27, 2017, 11:24:29 AM2/27/17
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Very interesting, Todd. Looking at the Sandes/Sondes/at Sende pedigree right now ... ancestral names in the chart would seem to be Russell, Dod, Guildford, Urrey, de Deane, Cheyney, and Towne.

Maybe someone can do more with this.

taf

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Feb 27, 2017, 9:27:39 PM2/27/17
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On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 8:24:29 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Very interesting, Todd. Looking at the Sandes/Sondes/at Sende pedigree
> right now ... ancestral names in the chart would seem to be Russell, Dod,
> Guildford, Urrey, de Deane, Cheyney, and Towne.
>
> Maybe someone can do more with this.

From the Visitations alone, I develop the following AT for Thomazin (Fisher) Epes:

1. Thomazin Fisher
2. Alexander Fisher
3. Katherine Maplesden
4. John Fisher
5. Thomazin Bettenham
6. Peter Maplesden
7. Joan Gay
8. William Fisher of Maidstone
9. ( ) Friar
10. William Bettenham
11. Agnes Sandes
12. John Maplesden
13. Anne Miller
14. Thomas Gay, note A.
18. John Friar
20. John Bettenham
21. ( ) Yue
22. William Sandes of Lingfield
23. Elizabeth Towne
24. Thomas Maplesden of Cheveney in Morden (sic)
26. John Miller
40. Stephen Bettenham of Cranbro
41. Helwise Baker
44. Richard Sonds als Sandes of Alfricheston, Sussex
45. Paulina Dene
46. Thomas at Towne, note B
47. Joan Cheyney, note C
48. John Maplesden of Cheveney on Marden (sic)
82. William Baker
88. Richard Sonde
89. Elizabeth Urrey
90. John/Robert Dene of Alfricheston, Sussex, note B
91. Alice Cheyney
92. Thomas at Towne
93. Bennitt (i.e. Benedicta) Detling note D
94. William/Richard Cheyney of Sheppey
96. John Maplesden of Goudhurst
176. Richard Sonde
177. Maude Guldford
178. John Urrey
180. Robert de Dene
181. ( ) Chelwyke
182. Robert Cheney of Manwood, Sussex
186. John Detling
187. Joan de Shelving
192. John Maplesden of Maplesden
352. Robart at Sende als Sande
353. Alice Dod
354. Richard Guldford
362. ( ) Chelwyke of Grane
363. ( ) Podinden
374. John de Shelving
375. ( ) Denne
384. Henry Maplesden of Maplesden in Bennenden
704. Walter at Sende
705. Maude Rushall/Russall
706. Gilbert Dod
750. William Denne note E
751. ( ) Gatton
1408. Adam at Sende
1409. ( ) Saband
1410. Richard Rushall/Russall
1500. William Denne
1502. Giles Gatton
2816. Henry at Sende
2818. Peter Saband
3000. Richard Deane
3001. ( ) Staingarche
6002. Richard Staingarche

Note A. the 1619 Maplesden pedigree says Joan Gay, wife of Peter Maplesden was daughter of Thomas and bore "G. 3 lions Ramp. 2 & 1 between 5 cross crossletts ffichy Ar." This is clearly a variant of the coat described in the 1574 Gay pedigree, "Gules crusily or, three lions rampant argent", yet the color of the crosses is different. If this is a simple error in the Maplesden pedigree, then this could be the Thomas who heads the Gay pedigree, yet the chronology doesn't really work for this to have been the case. The Maplesden pedigree Thomas Gay is three generations back from the 1619 informant, while the Gay pedigree's Thomas is 3 generations back from the 1574 informant. This appears to be a different branch of the family.

Note B. Here I follow the 1574 Visitation, which agrees with the account of Thomas Town in History of Parliament. The 1592 Visitation adds another generation, making the Thomas who married Cheyney the grandfather of Elizabeth via another intervening Thomas. The 1592 Visitation also inserts an extra John Dene between the John who married a Cheyney and Paulina, also named John.

Note C. The 1566 Bedford Cheyney pedigree shows in the first generation John Cheyney of Sheppey having a daughter married to Thomas at Towne. This is too far back to be reliable in detail, but the family clearly retained a memory of this marriage. Notably, it shows her as sister of Sir William, husband of the daughter of Sallare. Clearly this last is William, husband of Eleanor Salerne. However, HOP shows Thomas Town to have married the daughter of this William, yet the chronology is tight. It looks like William married immediately before 1405, while his supposed son-in-law is last seen in 1420, and had three daughters. It is possible, but I am wondering if the Bedford pedigree (and the correction to the Kent pedigree that makes her daughter to Richard, Sir William's true father) isn't the more accurate over HOP.

Note D. Several accounts refer to this marriage, calling Thomas' father-in-law as John Brampton alias Detling. These accounts skip the generation with the Cheyney marriage, making the Brampton/Detling heiress mother of Elizabeth (Towne) Sondes as well as two other daughters. THi is clearly wrong, as shown by this pedigree:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t6542rp7k;view=1up;seq=381
Benedicta Detling/Brampton would remarry to #40, Stephen Betenham, after the death of Thomas at Towne in 1403. For her see the end of this:
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.015%20-%201883/015-01.pdf
Reference is made here to the will of Benedicta de Betenham:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nnc2.ark:/13960/t33201b1m;view=1up;seq=210

Note E. Berry's Kent Pedigrees shows a William Dene marrying a Gatton heiress, but the father is given a different name, and he had a son, not the daughter and heir given in the visitation, so either this is just coincidence or there is some flaw in the pedigree at this point.

taf

Jan Wolfe

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Feb 27, 2017, 10:42:21 PM2/27/17
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On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 9:27:39 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
...
> From the Visitations alone, I develop the following AT for Thomazin (Fisher) Epes:
>
> 1. Thomazin Fisher
> 2. Alexander Fisher
> 3. Katherine Maplesden
> 4. John Fisher
> 5. Thomazin Bettenham
> 6. Peter Maplesden
> 7. Joan Gay
> 8. William Fisher of Maidstone
> 9. ( ) Friar
> 10. William Bettenham
> 11. Agnes Sandes
> 12. John Maplesden
> 13. Anne Miller
> 14. Thomas Gay, note A.
> 18. John Friar
> 20. John Bettenham
> 21. ( ) Yue
...

Jules de Launay, <i>Abstracts of Cranbrook Wills</i>, includes abstracts of the wills of Alice, widow of John Bettenham of Cranbrook, and of William Bettynham.

Alice (26 December 1468, pr. 9 September 1474 Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury) appointed her son William Bettenham as executor (with Master Robert Kent).

William (13 January 1492/93, pr. 10 December 1493 Consistory Court of Canterbury) bequeathed to his wife Agnes his manor and tenements in Bettenham, Kent, and a tenement called Sirhuis for her life. To his daughters Elizabeth, Alice, and Thomasine 50 marks to each for her marriage. If wife be with child and the child is male, then manor of Bettenham to him after decease of wife Agnes, if female to daughter Elizabeth. If daughters die without issue then to John Bettenham, Henry Bettenham, and William Bettenham, sons of Thomas Bettenham, and also Stephen Bettenham, son of Henry Bettenham.
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