Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
canberra
the Clifford/Sutton/Wrottesley/Talbot etc line.
In this line is shown how (8) Dorothy Sutton is a daughter of Sir Edmund
Sutton and Matilda Clifford. It is Matilda Clifford who leads to King Edward
III.
In other sources I found a remark that the maternity of Dorothy Sutton is
not certain. Her father married twice, first to Joyce de Tiptoft and then to
Matilda Clifford.
If it turns out that Joyce de Tiptoft is the mother we loose King Edward III
but gain Edward I, Saint Louis and others.
However, it is important to establish who is her mother?
Can anyone help?
St.Louis IX, King of France
\
Philippe III, King of France
\
Marguerite de France-x-Edward I, King of Rngland
\
Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
\
Joan, Countess of Kent
/
Thomas de Holand, Earl of Kent
\
Lady Eleanor de Holand
\
Joyce de Cherleton
\
Joyce de Tiptoft
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Douglas Richardson
The 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire shows that Dorothy Sutton, wife of
Richard Wrottesley, was the daughter of Edmund Sutton (called Dudley
here), by his 2nd wife, Maud Clifford [Reference: Harleian Society
Publications, 16 (1881): 104-105]. I suspect the pedigree is reliable
as Dorothy Sutton died in 1517, just a few years before the visitation
was recorded.
The chronology appears to be rather tight, however, as Richard and
Dorothy (Sutton) Wrottesley are believed to have married in or before
1473. If correct, then Dorothy would be approximately the same age
as her brother, Edward Dudley, born about 1459, who was the elder of
two sons born to Edmund Sutton's lst wife, Joyce Tiptoft.
This matter bears further study. Two colonial immigrants descend from
Dorothy (Sutton) Wrottesley, namely Richard More of the Mayflower and
Agnes Mackworth.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
leov...@bigpond.com (canberra) wrote in message news:<00e101c17c5d$0cb0ca40$4acf36cb@leo>...
canberra
If Dorothy Sutton married in or before 1473 how old would/could she have
been?
I understand that Edmund Dudley alias Sutton by his first wife, Joyce de
Tiptoft, fathered (about 1459) Edward, then Joyce, then John. I cannot find
when Joyce de Tiptoft died nor when Edmund married Maud Clifford. Lets
presume Joyce died in 1461 when giving birth to John.
Edmund could have remarried the same year and Dorothy (if she is the elder
of the second marriage) could have been born in 1462, making Dorothy about
eleven when she married. Is that likely or possible? The next question, of
course, is when did Dorothy start having her children? This may be an
indication to her age. Can anyone fill us in?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
> Dear Leo and Brad ~
>
> The 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire shows that Dorothy Sutton, wife of
> Richard Wrottesley, was the daughter of Edmund Sutton (called Dudley
> here), by his 2nd wife, Maud Clifford [Reference: Harleian Society
> Publications, 16 (1881): 104-105]. I suspect the pedigree is reliable
> as Dorothy Sutton died in 1517, just a few years before the visitation
> was recorded.
>
> The chronology appears to be rather tight, however, as Richard and
> Dorothy (Sutton) Wrottesley are believed to have married in or before
> 1473. If correct, then Dorothy would be approximately the same age
> as her brother, Edward Dudley, born about 1459, who was the elder of
> two sons born to Edmund Sutton's lst wife, Joyce Tiptoft.
>
<snip>
U...@aol.com
leov...@bigpond.com writes:
> Dear Douglas,
> If Dorothy Sutton married in or before 1473 how old would/could she have
> been?
>
> I understand that Edmund Dudley alias Sutton by his first wife, Joyce de
> Tiptoft, fathered (about 1459) Edward, then Joyce, then John. I cannot find
> when Joyce de Tiptoft died nor when Edmund married Maud Clifford. Lets
> presume Joyce died in 1461 when giving birth to John.
> Edmund could have remarried the same year and Dorothy (if she is the elder
> of the second marriage) could have been born in 1462, making Dorothy about
> eleven when she married. Is that likely or possible? The next question, of
> course, is when did Dorothy start having her children? This may be an
> indication to her age. Can anyone fill us in?
> Many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
>
PA 2, p.233 has
5. DOROTHY SUTTON, was married for the first time to John Musgrave, Knt.
She was married for the second time, probably before 1473, to Richard
Wrottesley, Esq., of Wrottesley ..... He was born about 1457 ... They had
nine sons and seven daughters [four sons died before their parents. She died
in 1517.
Under Dudley we have Edmund Sutton [or Dudley] married for the second time to
Maud Clifford [she had two daughters by John Harington] by whom he had seven
sons and five daughters. He had married firstly Joyce Tiptoft by whom he had
two sons and a daughter.
I would think with such specificity as to numbers of children by which
spouses, Faris must know who belongs to who, and he has Dorothy as daughter
of Maud Clifford.
Always optimistic--Dave
malinda
Who do you show as the other son born to Edmund Sutton's lst wife,
Joyce Tiptoft ? And do you have a wife for him ?
Thank you,
~malinda
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Leo and Brad ~
>
> The 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire shows that Dorothy Sutton, wife of
> Richard Wrottesley, was the daughter of Edmund Sutton (called Dudley
> here), by his 2nd wife, Maud Clifford [Reference: Harleian Society
> Publications, 16 (1881): 104-105]. I suspect the pedigree is reliable
> as Dorothy Sutton died in 1517, just a few years before the visitation
> was recorded.
>
> The chronology appears to be rather tight, however, as Richard and
> Dorothy (Sutton) Wrottesley are believed to have married in or before
> 1473. If correct, then Dorothy would be approximately the same age
> as her brother, Edward Dudley, born about 1459, who was the elder of
> two sons born to Edmund Sutton's lst wife, Joyce Tiptoft.
>
> This matter bears further study. Two colonial immigrants descend from
> Dorothy (Sutton) Wrottesley, namely Richard More of the Mayflower and
> Agnes Mackworth.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> leov...@bigpond.com (canberra) wrote in message news:<00e101c17c5d$0cb0ca40$4acf36cb@leo>...
brad verity
Thanks for all the helpful posts.
U...@aol.com wrote in message news:<9b.1f07cc6...@aol.com>...
>PA 2, p.233 has
>
>5. DOROTHY SUTTON, was married for the first time to John Musgrave, Knt.
>She was married for the second time, probably before 1473, to Richard
>Wrottesley, Esq., of Wrottesley ..... He was born about 1457 ... They had
>nine sons and seven daughters [four sons died before their parents. She
>died in 1517.
I think the first step needs to be researching the marriage of Dorothy
Sutton to Sir John Musgrave, and determining if there were children from
that. I believe the Musgraves later became Baronets, which might continue
to present day. Perhaps BURKE'S PEERAGE can shed some light? I'll check on
the Musgrave pedigree in THE BARONETAGE OF ENGLAND. Anyone have access to
the Visitations - is there a Musgrave pedigree in those - in which county
were they seated?
Best regards, --------Brad Verity
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
canberra
According to Burke's Peerage 1999 edition, today we have Sir Christopher
Patrick Charles Musgrave, 15th Baronet.
These are the Musgraves of Hartley Castle.
In the appropriate time frame they only show a strict founder-son-son-son
lineage until about 1500. In that period no John is shown and if our Dorothy
Sutton was married first to a John Musgrave before, aged about 11-13,
marrying again, I doubt there were children from the John Musgrave marriage.
This marriage was probably not even consummated. Perhaps there are people
with more factual information?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "brad verity" <bat...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 AM
Subject: Re: Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
brad verity
>According to Burke's Peerage 1999 edition, today we have Sir Christopher
>Patrick Charles Musgrave, 15th Baronet.
>These are the Musgraves of Hartley Castle.
Leo, thanks for looking this up. Does BURKE'S give any birth, marriage, or
death dates for the following:
1)Sir THOMAS MUSGRAVE (also, does BURKE'S state his wife?)
2)Sir RICHARD MUSGRAVE, eldest son and heir to Sir Thomas, took to wife
Joan, daughter to Thomas lord Clifford, and had issue three daughters;
Margaret, wife to John Heron of Chipchase, Esq. Mary, to John Martindale,
Esq. and Jane, who died unmarried. He had also as many sons; Edward,
Thomas, and John.
3)Sir EDWARD MUSGRAVE of Harcla, Knt.
I got the above from BARONETAGE OF ENGLAND. They were direct ancestors to
the Musgrave Baronets, so BURKE'S might provide some dates for them in its
pedigree.
>In the appropriate time frame they only show a strict founder-son-son-son
>lineage until about 1500. In that period no John is shown and if our
>Dorothy
>Sutton was married first to a John Musgrave before, aged about 11-13,
>marrying again, I doubt there were children from the John Musgrave
>marriage.
>This marriage was probably not even consummated. Perhaps there are people
>with more factual information?
According to the BARONETAGE OF ENGLAND, I think the Sir John Musgrave we are
looking for is the following:
"Sir John Musgrave, second son [of Sir Thomas Musgrave, above, and younger
brother to Sir Richard Musgrave], was knighted at the battle of Newark upon
Trent, by King Henry VII and was sheriff of Cumberland, 7 Henry VII. He
seated himself at Fairbank in Cumberland, and married twice; first, Joan,
daughter of John Crackenthorp; and secondly, Margaret, sister to the lord
Dudley; and had posterity by both wives."
So, either the BARONETAGE got the first name wrong - Margaret instead of
Dorothy - or there were two Dudley sisters involved.
Also, it's interesting to note that Sir John Musgrave married a
granddaughter (possibly) of Thomas Lord Clifford, while his elder brother
Sir Richard Musgrave appears to have married a daughter of the same Lord
Clifford.
Does anyone have access to the Visitation of Cumberland and can look up the
Musgrave pedigree?
This gets more and more complicated, but interesting, too.
Best regards, --------Brad
John Higgins
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brad verity [mailto:bat...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:03 AM
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
>
>
A Musgrave pedigree appears in the 1564 Visitation of Yorkshire (Harleian
Societ, Visitation series, 16:317) and comfirms what Brad has reported from
the Baronetage of England regarding the relationship of Sir John Musgrave to
the rest of the family and also his two marriages. Of particular note is
the fact that the Visitation calls the 2nd wife of Sir John Margaret, not
Dorothy, BUT with a note saying that she is called Dorothy in the Dudley
pedigree in this same volume (p. 105) and Margaret in the Visitation of
1584. Sir John and Margaret are shown as having 3 sons and 2 daughters.
In the Dudley pedigree in the 1564 Visitation, there are TWO children named
Dorothy shown as children of Sir Edmund Dudley or Sutton by his 2nd wife
Maud Clifford: one married to Sir John Musgrave and the other to Richard
Wrottesley. (Definitely NOT two marriages for a single person) This
suggests the possibility that the Dudley pedigree wrongly calls the Musgrave
wife Dorothy instead of Margaret and that Dorothy was married once, not
twice. Perhaps the two Dorothys were collapsed together by subsequent
genealogists.
A collection of materials on the Musgrave family published by Percy Musgrave
in 1911 mentions the Dorothy/Margaret discrepancy but does not mentiona ny
second marriage for Dorothy/Margaret. In addition, a history of the
Wrottesley family, published in 1903 as a supplement to the Genealogist
magazine, states that Richard Wrottesley "appears to have married whilst
under age" to Dorothy Sutton, making no mention of a previous marriage by
her.
There were at least 12 children from the Wrottesley/Sutton marriage. If
there were in fact 5 children from the Musgrave/Sutton marriage AND Richard
was under age when married, this would argue for a Margaret misnamed Dorothy
and a separate Dorothy, not a Dorothy who married twice.
All this is interesting but doesn't really address Leo's original question
about the mother of Dorothy Sutton. I have seen no source that says she was
the daughter of the 1st wife and only one that suggests the possibility of
uncertainty about her mother.
brad verity
>A Musgrave pedigree appears in the 1564 Visitation of Yorkshire (Harleian
>Societ, Visitation series, 16:317) and comfirms what Brad has reported from
>the Baronetage of England regarding the relationship of Sir John Musgrave
>to
>the rest of the family and also his two marriages. Of particular note is
>the fact that the Visitation calls the 2nd wife of Sir John Margaret, not
>Dorothy, BUT with a note saying that she is called Dorothy in the Dudley
>pedigree in this same volume (p. 105) and Margaret in the Visitation of
>1584. Sir John and Margaret are shown as having 3 sons and 2 daughters.
Many thanks for looking this up, John. Leo provided some dates on the
Musgraves yesterday - Sir Thomas Musgrave of Edenhall (father of Sir John
Musgrave who married the Sutton sister of Lord Dudley) died in October 1457.
So Sir John (the second of four sons) had to have been born no later than
1455.
>In the Dudley pedigree in the 1564 Visitation, there are TWO children named
>Dorothy shown as children of Sir Edmund Dudley or Sutton by his 2nd wife
>Maud Clifford: one married to Sir John Musgrave and the other to Richard
>Wrottesley. (Definitely NOT two marriages for a single person) This
>suggests the possibility that the Dudley pedigree wrongly calls the
>Musgrave
>wife Dorothy instead of Margaret and that Dorothy was married once, not
>twice. Perhaps the two Dorothys were collapsed together by subsequent
>genealogists.
This is probably indeed what happened. It would be unusual for a couple to
have two daughters with the same first name both living to adulthood -
unless one was betrothed and out of the household by the time the other was
born.
>A collection of materials on the Musgrave family published by Percy
>Musgrave
>in 1911 mentions the Dorothy/Margaret discrepancy but does not mentiona ny
>second marriage for Dorothy/Margaret. In addition, a history of the
>Wrottesley family, published in 1903 as a supplement to the Genealogist
>magazine, states that Richard Wrottesley "appears to have married whilst
>under age" to Dorothy Sutton, making no mention of a previous marriage by
>her.
Richard Wrottesley was born in 1457, according to Pryce's pedigree in the
GENEALOGIST on Capt. Mark Phillips' royal descent. This lends much weight
to the theory of two Sutton sisters, Margaret (aka Dorothy) Sutton Musgrave
and Dorothy Sutton Wrottesley. What are the exact references for the
Wrottesley and Musgrave works you cited - I'm interested in learning further
about both families.
>There were at least 12 children from the Wrottesley/Sutton marriage. If
>there were in fact 5 children from the Musgrave/Sutton marriage AND Richard
>was under age when married, this would argue for a Margaret misnamed
>Dorothy
>and a separate Dorothy, not a Dorothy who married twice.
Yes. Plus, if it was the same woman, she'd have given birth to 17 children.
If we can discover that the Musgrave children and the Wrottesley children
were born simultaneously, then that would be definitive proof of two
different Sutton sisters.
Unfortunately, I don't have approximate birthdates for Walter Wrottesley or
Eleanor Wrottesley Long - the two children of Dorothy Sutton Wrottesley
mentioned in the Pryce pedigree. According to HOP, Eleanor Wrottesley's
first husband, Edmund Liversedge, of Frome Selwood, Somerset, died on 7
Sept. 1508, and she married 2ndly, Sir Henry Long (born by 1487), by 1516.
>All this is interesting but doesn't really address Leo's original question
>about the mother of Dorothy Sutton. I have seen no source that says she
>was
>the daughter of the 1st wife and only one that suggests the possibility of
>uncertainty about her mother.
According to THE HOUSE OF CLIFFORD,
Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford's, third daughter was:
"MAUD, married first Sir John Harington of Aldingham in Lancashire, son of
Sir Thomas Harington of Homby and Brierly, killed at the battle of Wakefield
in 1460; second, Sir Edmund Dudley; and third, Richard Wentworth of West
Bretton, Yorkshire." He cites as a source, Whitaker's RICHMONDSHIRE.
So, if Dorothy Sutton Wrottesley was the daughter of the above Maud
Clifford, she had to have been born after 1461.
Would the next step be trying to determine birthdates for the 12 children of
the Wrottesley/Sutton marriage?
Many thanks again, John, for your very helpful post.
Best regards, ---------Brad Verity
John Higgins
(aside from the Visitations) are as follows:
Collectanea Musgraviana : notes on the ancient family of Musgrave of
Musgrave, Wesmorland and its various branches in Cumberland, Yorkshire,
Northumberland, Somerset & etc., by Percy Musgrave; published in Leeds in
1911 (the LDS library has a copy on film and I have seen a fiche copy
produced by UMI in 1991)
History of the family of Wrottesley of Wrottesley, Co. Stafford, by George
Wrottesley (Exeter, W. Plllard & Co., 1903); (I have seen a fiche copy
produced by UMI in 1998, and it also appeared as a supplement to The
Genealogist magazine (new series) following vol. 19)
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brad verity [mailto:bat...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:16 AM
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
>
>