Re: The royal line of Judith Lukyn, wife of Edward Ward "of Havering"

[John]

On Sep 12, 12:30 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> About a year ago, I posted the following somewhat whimsical piece
> (slightly redacted):
>
> This was a bit of a "fun fantasy" for me, based solely and simply on
> my finding a married couple named Edward and Judith Ward (the names of
> two of my ancestors) in approximately the same time and place --Essex/
> Suffolk in the late 1500s / early 1600s. I should note, however, that
> the line is (I think) pretty well-proved down to Judith Lukin, wife of
> Edward Ward. To save time, I will note that the beginning of the line
> is the same as that for immigrant Edmond Hawes, from William the Lion
> down to
>
> Beatrice Shirley who m. John Brome, Esq., of Baddesley Clinton, co.
> Warwick
>
> Isabel Brome m. (2) John Denton, gent., of Appleton, Berkshire
>
> Thomas Denton of Caversfield, Oxfordshire m. Jane Webbe
>
> Isabel Denton m. (1) William ap Walter, gent., of Roxwell, Essex [she
> married (2) Edward Grenville of Wooton Underwood, co. Bucks]
>
> Thomasine Walter married 29 June 1559 Mashbury, Essex (extracted IGI
> batch M047461), to William Lukin, of Mashbury, who d. by Feb. 1576
> [Thomasine (Walter) Lukin m. (2) Edmond Rokewood]
>
> Judith Lukin m. Edward Ward, d. ca. 1621
>
[snip]

Thomasine Walter was apparently the second wife of William Lukin of
Mashbury. Pedigrees of the Lukin/Lukyn family indicate that he had at
least two sons by an earlier wife who is not identified by name, but
is mentioned in the will of William's father Geoffrey in 1549 - ten
years before the marriage of Thomasine Walter and William Lukin.. Is
anything further now known about this first wife? Through the son
Thomas by this first wife, William is an ancestor of Princess Diana.

[John]

On Sep 12, 12:30 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=Lucken+walt...
>
> [This Essex Visitation shows Isabel Denton actually married Edward
> Grenville, not GREVILLE, as claimed in the Oxfordshire Visitations; I
> strongly suspect the order of her marriages has been reversed in this
> Visitation, as Edward Grenville's will is dated March 1536.  She was
> probably married to Grenville first and Luckyn second.]
>
Presumably this should say that Isabel Denton married Grenville first
and Walter [not Luckyn] second. The chronology certainly suggests
this (despite the visitation pedigree), since the eldest child of the
Grenville marriage was born in 1525. If Thomasine, the eldest of
three daughters of the Walter marriage, was in fact of an earlier
marriage she would have been quite old for a first-time marriage in
1559 - especially since she had children from the Lukin marriage at
least as late as 1571 (let alone any children she had from the
Rockwood marriage).

FWIW the Grenville pedigree in Lipscomb's Bucks, 1:600 doesn't mention
an additional marriage for Isabel Denton - either before or after the
Grenville marriage. It's not the most reliable source however, as its
mention of Isabel in the Grenville pedigree cites a Denton pedigree in
Lipscomb 3;16 - where Isabel isn't even mentioned.

[John H]

What I have is Isabel married Edward GRENVILLE
BUT her siblings Anne & Thomas married GREVILLE persons
So this could be the confusion.
+++
I show:

John Robert Thomas DENTON (Lived Armesden, Buckinghamshire, England)
married Isabell BROWNE and had issue
(but not neccesarily all of they had) [Only those pertaining to Greville or
Grenville).

(1) Anne DENTON (1469 - 13/101529) married c1499, Sir Edward GREVILLE
(1474-1529)
(son of John Greville and Lady Jane Forster) (Edward & Ann had issue of 6
children)
(Source Visitation of Gloucestershire 1623 page 215)
Sir Edward wasa the one who was granted the wardship of Elizabeth
Willoughby,
she later married Edward's son Fulke Greville.
(wardship Source is Cockayne "Complete Peerage" (London: St. Catherine
Press, 1953), Vol. XII (2), pg. 688)
Anne nee DENTON and her son & heir John Greville went guarantors for a
mortgage of �400 on lands mortgaged by Sir Edward Greville c1520

(2) Thomas DENTON apparently married Anne GREVILLE
(daughter of John Greville and Lady Jane Forster) no other details known by
me.

(3) Isabel DENTON married Edward GRENVILLE (same source as yours),
Nothing else entered by me as I wasnt sure if Isabels husband's surname was
Greville or Grenville.
originally either, and I am doing the Greville family not the Denton or
Grenville families

So again a few variations between what people have!

It is also interesting that some historians suggest that Greville and
Gernville families were originally of the same line.
I havent seen anything that gets close to proving that though.

John H

"Johnny Brananas" <ravinma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:da2e5356-4341-4874...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

> About a year ago, I posted the following somewhat whimsical piece
> (slightly redacted):
>
> This was a bit of a "fun fantasy" for me, based solely and simply on
> my finding a married couple named Edward and Judith Ward (the names of
> two of my ancestors) in approximately the same time and place --Essex/
> Suffolk in the late 1500s / early 1600s. I should note, however, that
> the line is (I think) pretty well-proved down to Judith Lukin, wife of
> Edward Ward. To save time, I will note that the beginning of the line
> is the same as that for immigrant Edmond Hawes, from William the Lion
> down to
>
> Beatrice Shirley who m. John Brome, Esq., of Baddesley Clinton, co.
> Warwick
>
> Isabel Brome m. (2) John Denton, gent., of Appleton, Berkshire
>
> Thomas Denton of Caversfield, Oxfordshire m. Jane Webbe
>
> Isabel Denton m. (1) William ap Walter, gent., of Roxwell, Essex [she
> married (2) Edward Grenville of Wooton Underwood, co. Bucks]
>
> Thomasine Walter married 29 June 1559 Mashbury, Essex (extracted IGI
> batch M047461), to William Lukin, of Mashbury, who d. by Feb. 1576
> [Thomasine (Walter) Lukin m. (2) Edmond Rokewood]
>
> Judith Lukin m. Edward Ward, d. ca. 1621
>

> Mary Ward m. 1619 Capt. John Cutting of New England
>
>
> Sources:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=f6wKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA378&dq=denton+caversfield&lr=#PPA229,M1
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=Lucken+walter&lr=

>
> [This Essex Visitation shows Isabel Denton actually married Edward
> Grenville, not GREVILLE, as claimed in the Oxfordshire Visitations; I
> strongly suspect the order of her marriages has been reversed in this
> Visitation, as Edward Grenville's will is dated March 1536. She was
> probably married to Grenville first and Luckyn second.]
>

> http://books.google.com/books?id=8-0KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA673&dq=underwood+grenville+denton&lr=
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238&dq=%22abraham+carrington%22+maldon&lr=
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Uu0KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA22&dq=edward+warde+havering+essex&lr=#v=onepage&q=edward%20warde%20havering%20essex&f=false
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Xp_8n5A03L8C&pg=PA314&dq=%22edward+warde%22+judith&lr=#v=onepage&q=%22edward%20warde%22%20judith&f=false
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Fgg8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA33&dq=%22edward+ward%22+hosier&lr=#v=onepage&q=%22edward%20ward%22%20hosier&f=false
> [Aspinwall entry showing association of Edward Ward, hosier, of
> Ipswich, England, with New England people; remember that his likely
> brother-in-law, John Cutting, was a ship's captain to New England.]
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> Of course, in the meantime, Leslie Mahler's excellent article has
> appeared: "The English Origin of Nathaniel1 Ward of Hartford,
> Connecticut, and Hadley, Massachusetts, Mary1 (Ward) Cutting of
> Newbury, Massachusetts, Rebecca1 (Ward) Allen of Newbury, and Their
> Nephew William1 Markham of Hadley: A Previously Unnoticed Kinship
> Group," _TAG_, 83 (2008):13-18. Leslie showed that all these people
> were children of Edward Ward of Little Wratting (next to Haverill),
> Suffolk, by his wife Judith ____, noting that no record shows Judith's
> maiden identity.
>
> It's quite high on my "wish list" to have someone check the manuscript
> of the 1612 Essex Visitation for Edward Ward "of Haveringe" who
> married Judith Lukyn to see if "Haveringe" could possibly be actually
> "Haverill."
>
> It's important to remember that Judith Lukyn's mother Thomasine was
> married in Feb. 1576/7 to Edmond Ruckwood per this license:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=i6wKAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA74&dq=%22thomasine+lukyn%22&lr=#v=onepage&q=%22thomasine%20lukyn%22&f=false
>
> Then, working back on another pedigree, we see Thomasine Walter's
> mother was "Isabell, daugh. to Thomas Denton of Battesfild in com
> Oxford (? Caversfield co. Bucks), she after mar. to Edward Greenfilde
> [Grenville] of Wootton Underwood in com. Buckingham, esqueir." By her
> Walter marriage, Isabel had four children, including Thomasine, wife
> of Luken and Rookwood, and a daughter Anne, married to Thomas Denton
> of Shropshire.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=%22william+ap+walter&lr=#v=onepage&q=%22william%20ap%20walter&f=false
>
> On a whim, I ordered the 28 October 1585 will of "Edwarde Grenevile of
> Wotton Underwood in the countye of Buck, gentleman" (PROB 11/69). It
> is most interesting! It says, among other things, "Item I bequeathe
> unto the childrenn of my brother Rockwood and the childrenn of my
> brother Luckin fiftie poundes to be equally distributed amongest
> them." It also mentions "my sister Anne Denton" and a couple members
> of the Walter family.
>
> So this line is easily provable down to Judith Lukyn, who was the wife
> of AN Edward Ward, and -could- be the wife of "our" Edward Ward of
> Haverill/ Wratting.
>
> The reason the Lukyns might have thought of Edward Ward as "of
> Haverhill," is that he could very well be a connection of the Puritan
> family of ministerial Wards, known for their connection to Haverhill,
> just over the county line in from Essex into Suffolk. As I noted
> above, Little Wratting is the next village over from Haverhill or
> Haveril.
>
> "Judith" is a name that was fairly rare at this time (late 1500s), and
> was just beginning to be used more widely. "Edward" cannot be
> considered a rare name, but it _is_ rarer than "the big three" (John,
> William, and Thomas). It is also probably more unique than
> Richard or Robert.
>
> I would also guess that there have always been fewer "Edward Wards" in
> all periods than might have been, because of the awkward repetition of
> the "ward ward" sound in the last two syllables of the name (parents
> usually care at least somewhat about the "sound" of a child's name).
> I've done a search of the IGI for all occurrences of an Edward Ward
> married to a Judith in the period 1400-1900 for both England and North
> America.
>
> There were three instances in that 500 year period in England:
>
> St. James, Dukes Palace, London
> --Edward Warde to Judith Pensax, 31 July 1682
>
> Filby, Norfolk
> --Edward Ward to Judith Narburgh/ Varburgh, 12 Nov. 1799 (this is not
> a true extracted IGI record, but there are two similar patron
> submissions that probably lead back to a "real" record)
>
> St Nicholas (nonconformist), Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland
> --Edward Ward to Judith Hudspeth, 29 Dec. 1819
>
> There are precisely NO "Edward Ward+Judith" marriages for North
> America for the entire period, either extracted or submitted.
>
> This shows that when you combine the somewhat rare name of "Edward
> Ward" with a wife named "Judith," you find very few instances of it in
> the entire English-speaking world before 1900.

[Matthew Hovious]

John,

Your intriguing post about the possibility, however slight, of Edward
and Judith Ward of Little Wratting being the same couple mentioned in
the Lukyn pedigree in the Visitation of Essex led me to spend a little
time on researching the matter this week. Here are a few things that I
turned up, and which may or may not be of any use:

* The published Feet of Fines for Essex, in the volume for 1581-1603,
include on page 149 a fine levied at Trinity Term, 40 Elizabeth
(1598): 'Edw. Luckyn, gent., pl. Christr. Henw-- & w. Isabel, Edw.
Ward & w. Judith & Abraham Garrington & w. Jane, def. 40 a. marsh in
Leigh, Hadleigh, Prittlewell, Rochford, Laindon, --- & Rayleigh.
£200.' Misspellings aside, this at least serves to ratify the accuracy
of the family nucleus as shown by the Visitation pedigree, and that
the principals were still living in 1598. The actual fines
occasionally reveal more information than that indicated in the
extract, so I suppose that there's a faint chance that the original
fine may indicate where Edward and Judith resided at that time.

* I examined a transcript of the Bishop's Transcripts for the parish
of Little Wratting, which include several decades not covered by the
surviving parish records. Many years are missing from the BT's too,
sometimes as many as 8 in a row, but the following references to
Edward Ward turned up:

- 23 Nov 1587: bapt. Thomas s. Edward & _____ Warde

- 20 Jan 1589: bapt. Martha d. Edward & Judith Warde

- 25 Mar 1590: bur. Martha d. Edward & Judith Warde

- 6 Jun 1591: bapt. Joseph s. Edward Warde

- 4 Nov 1593: bapt. Lydia d. Edward Ward

- 20 Nov 1594: bapt. Maria d. Edward Warde

After that no further mention of the family in the years for which
there were transcripts.

(I've not seen the article by Leslie Mahler which you mention, so I
don't know if these dates were already included therein.)

I hope this is of some interest.

[royala...@msn.com]

Dear John ~

For what it is worth, I've encountered a Christopher Hanworth, of
Essex, in my own research. Christopher Hanworth was a close friend or
relation of Thomas Harrington, of Finchingfield and Althorne, Essex,
whose granddaughter was the immigrant, Dorothy Mott, wife of John
Talcott, of Hartford, Connecticut.

The maiden name of Thomas Harrington's wife is not known. He married
by license dated 1577 to widow Anne Linsey, of Althorne, Essex. See
the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=i6wKAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA75&lpg=RA1-PA75&dq=Thomas+Harington+Althorne+1577&source=bl&ots=6waA7YUgWy&sig=6FsmapCjEWhPfhIvUobjr9EfrT8&hl=en&ei=wAW1So2XIpTctgOZk-HgDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

For all I know, widow Anne Linsey may have been a Hanworth by birth.
However, I've never proved a Hanworth connection.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[royala...@msn.com]

John ~

You probably already posted this weblink, but, in case you didn't,
here is a weblink for an abstract of the will of Edward Warde, of
Little Wrathinge, Suffolk, yeoman, proved in 1620:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xp_8n5A03L8C&pg=PA314&dq=Edward+Judith+Warde#v=onepage&q=Edward%20Judith%20Warde&f=false

[jmb...@albion.edu]

Hi Newsgroup, just wanted to put a plug in for Matthew Hovious' just-published article in TAG, "The Ancestry of Edward Warde of Little Wratting, Suffolk, and the Putative Lukyn Origin of His Wife, Judith" (TAG Vol. 28, #2, Fall 2014). It contains a good summary of a lot of the issues in identifying Judith as a Lukyn (who would then have a royal descent), as well as Edward's immediate ancestry. A necessary companion piece to Leslie Mahler's 2008-9 TAG article on the origin of the Wards of Newbury, Mass. I've got no connection to Matthew in any way, just enjoyed the article as it was pertinent to my own research. Cheers!

[JBrand]

On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 3:26:08 AM UTC-7, jmb...@albion.edu wrote:
> Hi Newsgroup, just wanted to put a plug in for Matthew Hovious' just-published article in TAG, "The Ancestry of Edward Warde of Little Wratting, Suffolk, and the Putative Lukyn Origin of His Wife, Judith" (TAG Vol. 28, #2, Fall 2014). It contains a good summary of a lot of the issues in identifying Judith as a Lukyn (who would then have a royal descent), as well as Edward's immediate ancestry. A necessary companion piece to Leslie Mahler's 2008-9 TAG article on the origin of the Wards of Newbury, Mass. I've got no connection to Matthew in any way, just enjoyed the article as it was pertinent to my own research. Cheers!

TG, not TAG, I believe. _The Genealogist_.

[JBrand]

Since Rebecca _____, wife of Walter Allen, mentioned on this webpage below, was actually born Rebecca WARDE, daughter of the same Edward Warde and Judith, both the Duchess of Cornwall and her close(-"ish") cousin Henry David Thoreau would be descendants of the line:

http://www.americanancestors.org/bowles-notable-kin/

[jmb...@albion.edu]

Right, TG. Sorry, wasn't thinking.

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

I descend from Edward Warde and his wife and would be interested in what everything thinks of Hovious's article (which I still need to scrutinize more) -- specifically the identification of Warde's wife as the daughter of William Lukyn. Thanks to all!

Adrian Benjamin Burke

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 10:37:52 PM UTC-4, adrianben...@gmail.com wrote:
> I descend from Edward Warde and his wife and would be interested in what everything thinks of Hovious's article (which I still need to scrutinize more) -- specifically the identification of Warde's wife as the daughter of William Lukyn. Thanks to all!

> Adrian Benjamin Burke

It does seem near certain at this point.

[jmb...@albion.edu]

To be fair, Hovious didn't make the final step of saying that Mrs. Judith Warde of Newbury is definitely Judith Lukyn. ("... and the Putative Lukyn Origin...") The evidence presented is circumstantial, but it does seem to lean heavily toward a positive identification.

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

Very interesting John -- I don't recall off hand if he mentions this or not I still need to read Hovious's article more carefully. I descent from Samuel Wildbore's son incidentally. It does appear that these large kinship groups's migration pattern adds weight to identifications such as the present subject.

[jmb...@albion.edu]

If I may ask one more time, just for clarification: is everyone in agreement that Judith Lukyn (wife of Edward Warde "of Havering," alleged to be the same Edward Warde of Little Wratting, father of immigrants) has a legitimate royal descent (and probably more than one)? In brief:

1. John "Lackland," King of England
+ Isabelle d'Angouleme
2. Richard, "King of the Romans," 1st Earl of Cornwall
+ [unknown mistress]
3. Richard Plantagenet, of Cornwall
+ Joan _______
4. Joan Plantagenet, of Cornwall
+ John Howard
5. John Howard
+ Alice de Bois
6. Joan Howard
+ Peter de Brewes
7. Beatrice Brewes
+ Hugh Shirley
8. Ralph Shirley
+ Joan Basset
9. Beatrice Shirley
+ John Brome, alias Browne
10. Isabel Brome (alias Browne)
+ John Denton
11. Thomas Denton
+ Jane Webbe
12. Isabel Denton
+ William (ap) Walter
13. Thomasine Walter
+ William Lukyn
14. Judith Lukyn
+ Edward Warde "of Havering"
ALLEGEDLY the same Edward and Judith (______) Warde of Little Wratting, parents of immigrants

My deepest apologies for not including all titles, name variations, dates, and sources. I was trying to be brief since many of these generations have been discussed elsewhere on this easily-searchable board. :)

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

I believe there is a better line from Henry II through his bastard the Earl of Salisbury, but if you want to go through only legit. lines than from what I've seen in Richardson's books and elsewhere online this one you post is the most recent. I did review somewhere a post claiming Judith descended from William the Lion (of Scotland) as well but I am not sure how.

[Matt A]

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:44:57 PM UTC-4, adrianben...@gmail.com wrote:
> I believe there is a better line from Henry II through his bastard the Earl of Salisbury, but if you want to go through only legit. lines than from what I've seen in Richardson's books and elsewhere online this one you post is the most recent. I did review somewhere a post claiming Judith descended from William the Lion (of Scotland) as well but I am not sure how.

The descent is as follows:

William the Lion ~ daughter of Robert Avenal (often called Isabel)
Isabel = Robert de Ros, 4th Baron Hamlake
Sir William de Ros = Lucia FitzPiers
Sir Robert de Ros = Isabel d'Aubeney
Mary de Ros = Sir William de Braose, 1st Lord de Braose
Sir Peter de Braose = Agnes 'de Clifford' (but I don't think she is a Clifford)
Sir Peter de Braose = Joan Howard (for whom see above)

These generations are not controversial.

-Matt Ahlgren

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

Great thanks Matt I hadn't review that line yet.

Adrian

[jmb...@albion.edu]

I believe there is an illegitimate descent from generations 2-3 (Richard, Earl of Cornwall to his son, Richard) in the line I posted, but I'm not overly concerned about that; just whether the line is proven. Would you mind posting the "better" line from Henry II?

[Douglas Richardson]

The line as you set it forth for Judith (Lukyn) Ward is fine. I do have a couple of comments.

Generation 2 is Richard of England. His titles were King of the Romans, Earl of Cornwall, Count of Poitou. There is no need to set King of the Romans in parentheses.

Generation 3 is Richard de Cornwall (or Cornwaille, Corneweyle), Knt. He never bore the name Plantagenet. He married Joan, allegedly the daughter of John Fitz Alan, Knt. (died 1267), of Oswestry, Shropshire. I have never confirmed Joan's parentage.

Generation 4 is Joan de Cornwall, not "Plantagenet, of Cornwall." She would never have borne the name Plantagenet.

Generation 8 is Ralph Shirley alright. However, he occurs in at least one record dated 1424, as "Ralph Basset, son and heir of Hugh Shirley, Knt." The assumption of the Basset surname on this occasion was presumably due to a request in the will of Ralph Basset, Lord Basset of Drayton, dated 1390 that his nephew and appointed heir, Hugh Shirley, adopt the surname Basset.

For the 1424 record, please see Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 17) (1896): 104, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HqtCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA104

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:37:44 PM UTC-4, jmb...@albion.edu wrote:
> If I may ask one more time, just for clarification: is everyone in agreement that Judith Lukyn (wife of Edward Warde "of Havering," alleged to be the same Edward Warde of Little Wratting, father of immigrants) has a legitimate royal descent (and probably more than one)? In brief:
>
>
>
> 1. John "Lackland," King of England
>
> + Isabelle d'Angouleme
>
> 2. Richard, "King of the Romans," 1st Earl of Cornwall
>
> + [unknown mistress]
>
> 3. Richard Plantagenet, of Cornwall
>
> + Joan _______
>
> 4. Joan Plantagenet, of Cornwall
>
> + John Howard
>
> 5. John Howard
>
> + Alice de Bois
>
> 6. Joan Howard
>
> + Peter de Brewes
>

This is a pretty weak link. The fact that Peter Brewes wife was a Howard, and that it was this Joan (Howard) that was the mother of Beatrix I feel is not proven.

The descent from William the Lion on the other hand is a lot more solid

--Joe Cook

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 7:25:42 PM UTC-4, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

> This is a pretty weak link. The fact that Peter Brewes wife was a Howard, and that it was this Joan (Howard) that was the mother of Beatrix I feel is not proven.
>
> The descent from William the Lion on the other hand is a lot more solid
>
> --Joe Cook

Perhaps I stand corrected... here is an interesting and compelling summary of the facts related to this couple:

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/family/Joan%20Brewes.pdf

Joe C

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

I am not sure if anyone has noticed this or not, and it doesn't help solidify the identification of Mrs Judith Warde (the immigrant)'s parentage, but there is a will of John Amerie of St Mary's, Malden, which shows that John married Dorothy, daughter of Christopher Hanworth by presumably his wife Isobel Lukyn. Edward Lukyn her brother serves as on overseer. It also mentions other children of the Lukyn siblings. No Wards though, unfortunately.

The Genealogical Quarterly, vol. 5

http://books.google.com/books?id=F8QUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4&dq=Edward+Warde+Maldon&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K6wxVJr-CY-xyATrlIHoCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Edward%20Warde%20Maldon&f=false

Adrian Benjamin Burke

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

The point made near the end of the careful and useful article cited above is worth reiterating:
"Whilst the foregoing is circumstantial evidence that Joanne Howard married Peter de Brewes, it should be remembered there is no evidence so far that I have found, specifically stating that Peter did marry Joan Howard and that Alice and John Howard had a daughter named Joan."

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

Perhaps Doug Richardson would provide his analysis of the sources he sites to in his books (MCA, etc.) that leads to the conclusion that this filiation occurred?

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

Great find!! I was wondering if any Lukyns immigrated and didn't think so but this is excellent. There still may be evidence to be found in New England records that could assist with clinching Judith Warde's identity. Could this William have been Judith's brother? or a cousin?

[JBrand]

On Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:55:35 PM UTC-7, adrianben...@gmail.com wrote:
> Great find!! I was wondering if any Lukyns immigrated and didn't think so but this is excellent. There still may be evidence to be found in New England records that could assist with clinching Judith Warde's identity. Could this William have been Judith's brother? or a cousin?

I suppose the closest it could have been would have been a nephew or cousin. But it could also have been a rather distant cousin. Since this person apparently didn't remain in New England, I suppose there aren't many (if any) clues to his origins.

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

Did you find evidence he returned to England? I noticed yesterday a reference to an "Oliver (or maybe Henry) Lukyn" I think his name was, living in Mass. in the early 1700s.

But you may be right about there not being much else on his family in N.E. records.

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

This is an interesting Welsh pedigree showing Judith Lukyn's ancestor Walter Thomas of Rexwell, Essex, as a descendant of Sir Walter Bredwardine of Bredwardine

http://books.google.com/books?id=9JDnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA511&dq=walter+as+thomas+roxwell+bredwardine&hl=en&sa=X&ei=izU4VMKKAebbsATtgYHgBg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=walter%20as%20thomas%20roxwell%20bredwardine&f=false

[jmb...@albion.edu]

Hawley's Essex Visitations indicate that Walter (ap) Thomas, of Writtell and Croghowell, husband of Thomasine Heveningham and paternal grandfather of Mrs. Thomasine (Walter) Lucken (mother of Judith), was a son of Thomas ap John of Croghowell and his wife, "Joanne, daugh. to William Gunter of South Wales."

http://books.google.com/books?id=0m1KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=heveningham#v=onepage&q=heveningham&f=false

This seems to be supported by the arms of Thomas (or Ap Thomas), as found on the 1513 effigy of Thomasina (nee Heveningham), wife of Walter, at Writtle -- which include the arms of Gunter, apparently because of Walter's mother.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tEk-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA54&dq=gunter#v=onepage&q=gunter&f=false

However, we should note that this info on Gunter is included in a footnote that includes one "appears to be" and two "probably"s. Not that this particular branch of ancestry is a very notable one, but is there any firsthand indication of Walter (ap) Thomas' parentage?

[adrianben...@gmail.com]

Good question. Like ALL Welsh pedigrees of this sort, painstaking research is required to prove the filiations.

[joe...@gmail.com]

The Welsh background of Judith Lukyn is well established. Bartrum includes many of these links in his pedigrees: http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026

For the parentage of Walter ap Thomas of "Writtle" specifically, in his will he requests to be buried with his parents in St. Michael the
Archangel chapel, in Crughowell (CrickHowell), and the arms also add evidence.

familysearch community trees has a lot on this family, actually, but it seems to be broken right now. When I visit that page it says "Hello, Administrator!"

--Joe C

[jmb...@albion.edu]

Thank you Joe. I believe I am reading these pedigrees correctly in that they claim:

1. Watkin or Walter ap Thomas of Writtle, Essex, will 1540 (husband of Thomasine Heveningham)

2. Thomas Goch ap John of "Crucywel"
3. [unnamed]

4. John ap Watkin ap Philip

8. [etc....]

This John is identical to the "John Walter, alias Watkin" in the pedigree that Adrian linked above. John had another son, named in both places as Watkin Fychan, m. Dyddgu ferch Thomas ap Hywel. This Watkin Fychan had a son Thomas (husband of Alice ferch Maredudd Havard), whom Bartrum gives a pencilled-in son "Walter Thomas of Goge Howel by Morant," as Adrian sees in the footnote of his link. So we can at least agree that this last Walter is not Thomasine Heveningham's husband.

However, I am concerned that some generations may have gotten confused. Going back to Watkin Fychan (brother of #2 above, and uncle to Thomasine's husband), Bartrum gives him a younger son, John, who is then the father of ANOTHER Thomas Goch. This younger Thomas Goch is said to be married to "N[ot] N[amed] ferch Wm ap Jenkin Gunter," with two daughters and no other issue. Which Thomas Goch is in fact the father of Walter ap Thomas of Writtle? IF Walter's shield (on his wife's effigy) included the Gunter arms, as reportedly, then I am inclined to believe that his sire was the younger Thomas Goch, and Bartrum is wrong. Either way, the father of our Walter of Writtle would have the name and patronymics of "Thomas ap John ap Watkin" -- a very confusing situation indeed. It is very unfortunate that Bartrum does not include any dates in his pedigrees that might help confirm either line of descent.

Can anyone help clear this up?
Jim+

[karen sims via]

Joe

> For the parentage of Walter ap Thomas of "Writtle" specifically, in his
will he requests to be buried with his parents in St. Michael the
Archangel chapel, in Crughowell (CrickHowell), and the arms also add
evidence.

Can you point me to the will of Walter ap Thomas? I've been trying to find
it, since I'm working on the Berdefeld's.

Karen

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:28 PM, joecook via <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
wrote:

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[JBrand]

PCC 8 Spert, 1542 or 1543.

[JBrand]

Matthew's article suggested the possibility that Thomasine Walter/ ap Walter's second husband Edmund Ruckwood was the man shown in _Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica_, under the pedigree of the Suffolk and Norfolk Rookwoods, the sixth son Edmond of Robert and Agnes (Sporne) (Peryn) Rookwood of Lavenham, Suffolk, said to have "dux. uxorem in Essexia" (that is, taken a wife in Essex):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Js0KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142&dq=%22uxorem+in+essexia%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3vU6VKGhNIu38gHZpYCwCg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22uxorem%20in%20essexia%22&f=false

Lavenham (and Stanningfield) Suffolk, places associated with this man's father, Robert Rookwood, would be not _too_ distant from Clare and Little Wratting, places associated with Edward Warde and Judith {? Lukyn}.

Robert Rookwood/ Rokewood's second wife Agnes Sporne, mother of Edmond "who took a wife in Essex," is stated in the _Collectanea Topographica_ pedigree to be "Agnes, relicta Peryn, filia Thomae Sporne de Lavenham." A bit of searching around on the internet shows that she was the widow of George Peryent, or Perient, NOT PERYN. George Perient occurs in a Perient pedigree in the Herts. Visitations, where his three children by Agnes (shown there as Agnes ___) are:

1. Henry Perient of Birch Magna, Essex;
2. Elizabeth Perient, wife of Sir Humphrey Style of Beckenham, Kent;
3. Catherine [sic] Perient, wife of William Clopton of Kentwell, Suffolk.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=stile+agnes+clopton+peryent&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bPg6VIyGNu_e8AGEp4HYAQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stile%20agnes%20clopton%20peryent&f=false

Note that these Peryent/ Perients would be half-siblings of the Edmund Rokewood who "married in Essex," and who may be second husband of Thomasine ap Walter.

The Peryent wife of William Clopton was really named MARY, not Catherine, as shown in Muskett's _Suffolk Manorial Families_.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZxANnBnHKBQC&pg=PA143&dq=muskett+kentwell+clopton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WPk6VMW3C_TP8QGF9IDIAQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=muskett%20kentwell%20clopton&f=false

Mary (Peryent) Clopton had a son Thomas Clopton of Kentwell and Melford, Suffolk, not too distant from Clare and Little Wratting, Suffolk, who married Mary Waldegrave; he would be the nephew (of the half-blood) of Edmond Rookwood, possible husband of Thomasine ap Walter. I downloaded Thomas Clopton's will of 1597 and it mentions: "Item I will and bequeath unto Edmund Rookwood gent. one yerely annuytie of fforty shillinges by yeres yssuinge out of my meadowes at Stansted [Suffolk] the same to be truely ennshured to the said Edmond for & duringe his naturall lief, and to be paide the one halfe att the ffeaste of Easter, the other halfe at the ffeast of St. Michaell Tharchangell The same to be geven at the first of the said ffeasts wch shall happen nexte after my decease. And yf yt shall happen the said annuytie to be unnpayed, that the sayd Edmund maye have power and authority to enter and destreyne for the same and the arrereages thereof."

These feast days make me think this Thomas Clopton had Catholic tendencies, as indeed did many of the Rookwoods of Lavenham. Edmund Rookwood (who married in Essex) had a half-sister, Elizabeth Rokewode, wife of Thomas Brampton, who was firmly Protestant, however: "She was, as I have siad, born a Rokewode of Coldham in Suffolk, an ancient family who clung to the ancient faith; but from the preamble to her will, it is clear that she had adopted the tenets of the Reformation and, possibly on this account, broke with her Roman Catholic relations, for, although various others are mentioned, not one of the Rokewodes or their connections is named in the will.' (_Norfolk Archaeology_, vol. 18 [1914], p. 233).

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jms9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA232-IA3&dq=%22thomas+brampton+who+lived+here+as+wife%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jfs6VOHFIuOe8gHI14Aw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22thomas%20brampton%20who%20lived%20here%20as%20wife%22&f=false

I think the will of Thomas Clopton may giving a bit of inter-denominational charity to his aged half-uncle, Edmund Rookwood. Stansted, Suffolk, whence the charity was to derive, is quite close to Clare, Suffolk, where Edward Ward's brother-in-law Strickson said he was living in 1606. Little Wratting is just a bit to the west of Clare, and still quite close to Stansted.

It seems possible that Judith Lukyn may have been quite close to her stepfather Rookwood, and may have looked after him if he was in the vicinity of Little Wratting.

Other Edmund Rookwoods should be eliminated, of course. There is a bit of a complication, in that Elizabeth Peryent, wife of Humphrey Style, mentioned above (another half-sibling of the Edmond who possibly married Thomasine ap Walter), married secondly to her distant cousin Nicholas Rookwood, M.P., who has a biography in the HOP series. I believe this Nicholas had at least one son by Elizabeth (Peryent) Style, who was named Edward, and who turned out to be a strong Catholic. It should be checked whether this Edward, son of Nicholas Rookwood, could possibly have been EDMUND, and in fact the one intended in the Clopton bequest.

Notice that an Edward Denton, kinsman to Isabel Denton, mother of Thomasine ap Walter, was married to Joyce Carleton, whose mother was a Perient of Hertfordshire, cousin to these other Peryents.

http://books.google.com/books?id=f6wKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=denton+perient+carleton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WP86VIrgMuTK8gHQu4GIDQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=denton%20perient%20carleton&f=false