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Richardson and Sibyl (Pierrepoint) de Ufford parentage timeline problem
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Darrell E. Larocque
Dec 15, 2021, 9:51:20 PM12/15/21
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So I am thoroughly confused by the timeline required for this pedigree to be possible, which was the conclusion made by Douglas regarding the parentage of Sibyl (Pierrepoint) de Ufford, wife of Edmund de Ufford "le cousin":
H. W. Harwood, ed, ''The Genealogist'' (1900), Volume 16, p. 41 and G. Wrottesley, ''Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls collected from the Pleadings in the Various Courts of Law AD 1200 to 1500'' (1905), p. 270:
"De Banco. Mich. 12. Hen. 4. m. 293. Simon Perpount, Knt., seised of the manors of Wrentham, Benacre, and Henstede, living 4. E. 3.[4 Edward III] - John=Ela, dau. of William de Calthorp. - Sibil."
Sibyl's first child, Ela de Ufford, married before 1376 Sir Miles Stapleton. This fact means that Ela would have been born in the mid 1350s.
This fact of her daughter Ela's approximate birth means that Sibyl Pierrepoint would have to have been born in the 1330s.
Sibyl's mother is recorded as Ela Calthorpe, daughter of Sir William Calthorpe. Blomefield writes: "Sir Wiliam died about the 33d of Edward III [1360]. and had a daughter Ela, married to John, son of Simon de Peirpoint (ancestor to the Dukes of Kingston) of Hensted in Suffolk, who settled on them the manor of Hurst-Peirpoint in Sussex on this marriage."
Ela's mother, Isabel Lovell, was born about 1310, the daughter of John Lovell and a daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere.
THE PROBLEM: If Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe was born ca. 1310, then how can this pedigree make any sense?
Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe b. ca. 1310
Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint, b. ?????
Sibyl (Pierrepoint) de Ufford, b. ca. 1330
Ela (de Ufford) Stapleton, b. mid 1350s
This is REALLY an odd pedigree. Thank you in advance!
Darrell Larocque
H. W. Harwood, ed, ''The Genealogist'' (1900), Volume 16, p. 41 and G. Wrottesley, ''Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls collected from the Pleadings in the Various Courts of Law AD 1200 to 1500'' (1905), p. 270:
"De Banco. Mich. 12. Hen. 4. m. 293. Simon Perpount, Knt., seised of the manors of Wrentham, Benacre, and Henstede, living 4. E. 3.[4 Edward III] - John=Ela, dau. of William de Calthorp. - Sibil."
Sibyl's first child, Ela de Ufford, married before 1376 Sir Miles Stapleton. This fact means that Ela would have been born in the mid 1350s.
This fact of her daughter Ela's approximate birth means that Sibyl Pierrepoint would have to have been born in the 1330s.
Sibyl's mother is recorded as Ela Calthorpe, daughter of Sir William Calthorpe. Blomefield writes: "Sir Wiliam died about the 33d of Edward III [1360]. and had a daughter Ela, married to John, son of Simon de Peirpoint (ancestor to the Dukes of Kingston) of Hensted in Suffolk, who settled on them the manor of Hurst-Peirpoint in Sussex on this marriage."
Ela's mother, Isabel Lovell, was born about 1310, the daughter of John Lovell and a daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere.
THE PROBLEM: If Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe was born ca. 1310, then how can this pedigree make any sense?
Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe b. ca. 1310
Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint, b. ?????
Sibyl (Pierrepoint) de Ufford, b. ca. 1330
Ela (de Ufford) Stapleton, b. mid 1350s
This is REALLY an odd pedigree. Thank you in advance!
Darrell Larocque
Michael Cayley
Dec 16, 2021, 5:22:51 AM12/16/21
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We are in the familiar realm of a set of estimated birth dates.
There seems to me to be no firm basis for saying that Ela (de Ufford) Stapleton was born as early as the mid 1350s. One reasonably firm date we have is that her son Brian was born in about 1379 - he was said to be 40 in 1419 when his father Miles died. According to Richardson she married Miles Stapleton before 1376 but marriage young was quite common for women of this rank. Her husband was, again according to Richardson, born about 23 June 1357. I have not checked out Richardson's sources, but you can find this information in Magna Carta Ancestry (2nd edition) Vol. I pp. 109 and 497-8. It is quite possible that Ela was born after her husband, and her birth date could have been in the early 1360s.
Working backwards, that means Sybil (Pierrepoint) de Ufford could have been born as late as the early to mid 1340s. Sybil's mother Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint could have been born as late as the second half of the 1320s. I do not know the basis on which the birthdate of Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint's mother Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe is estimated as being about 1310 - is there any reason for it not being earlier?
At the moment, nothing immediately strikes me as especially odd. We just have a set of unknown birth years. I will be interested to see what others have to say.
There seems to me to be no firm basis for saying that Ela (de Ufford) Stapleton was born as early as the mid 1350s. One reasonably firm date we have is that her son Brian was born in about 1379 - he was said to be 40 in 1419 when his father Miles died. According to Richardson she married Miles Stapleton before 1376 but marriage young was quite common for women of this rank. Her husband was, again according to Richardson, born about 23 June 1357. I have not checked out Richardson's sources, but you can find this information in Magna Carta Ancestry (2nd edition) Vol. I pp. 109 and 497-8. It is quite possible that Ela was born after her husband, and her birth date could have been in the early 1360s.
Working backwards, that means Sybil (Pierrepoint) de Ufford could have been born as late as the early to mid 1340s. Sybil's mother Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint could have been born as late as the second half of the 1320s. I do not know the basis on which the birthdate of Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint's mother Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe is estimated as being about 1310 - is there any reason for it not being earlier?
At the moment, nothing immediately strikes me as especially odd. We just have a set of unknown birth years. I will be interested to see what others have to say.
Darrell E. Larocque
Dec 16, 2021, 10:23:00 AM12/16/21
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So evidently this pedigree has been examined before a few years back and I think that the problem lies with the parentage of Isabel (?), wife of Sir William Calthorpe, son of Walter. As of now, all I can do it start with Ela (Calthorpe) Pierrepoint and go forward, because if there is a question of Isabel's parentage then we cannot really determine anything beyond that without additional help.
This is the G2G from the past discussion on Isabel.
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/309523/isabel-lovel-born-1310-daughter-granddaughter-john-lovel-1252
Darrell
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