Origin of the Spanish Name GUZMAN?
David / Amicus
protestant revolt was persecuting Catholics in Germany many fled to
Spain for protection.
But I've read that Guzman is the surname of the Dukes of Medina Sedonia
the first Duke being Guzman el Bueno who was born in the 13th century.
Leo van de Pas
Castile and Leon, was a daughter of Guillen Perez de Guzman. I have the
names of about three generations before him, but no dates. I always believed
Guzman to be Spanish or Portuguese.
The first ancestor, I know, of the Dukes of Medina Sidonia was a Juan Alonso
Perez de Guzman y Osorio (died 5 October 1396) who, in 1371, married
Beatriz, illegitimate daughter of Enrique II de Trastamare, King of Castile
and Leon.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Francisco Antonio Doria
The name is Basque, as far as I can tell. The family
is very old and can be traced from the 10th century
onwards. They gave a queen to Portugal (D. Luisa de
Gusmão) and am empress to France (Eugénie de Montijo).
chico
--- David / Amicus <Ami...@webtv.net> escreveu: > I
=====
Francisco Antonio Doria
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Todd A. Farmerie
It traces back to the 12th century, deriving from a place-name in
the old Kingdom of Castile/Leon, the founders apparently related
to Jimena, mistress of Alfonso VI, and to the Lara clan.
taf
Marin-Guzman
I don't believe it's Basque in origin and, yes, there is a place in Castile
called Guzman, but I think the place itself is named after the family (Nuño
Perez de Guzman, son of the mayordomo of Alfonso VIII, was THE Señor de
Guzman).
According to Pedro Barrantes Maldonado, biographer of the Guzman family in
1541, the family name is either a coruption of "goth man", "gottman" or
"good man", which was the name given, by King Rodrigo I of Leon (842-850),
to the patriarch of the Guzman family, a younger brother of Heruspogio, Duke
of Brittany (son of Neomenio), when he came to his aid against the moors.
This brother of Heruspogio then married a daughter of Rodrigo I of Leon. He
explains their son was named Ramiro (after Ramiro I) de Guzman.
Barrantes Maldonado then goes on to detail the Guzman genealogy all the way
to the XVI century. I don't believe all his information is correct, however,
for the sake of argument I'm quite willing to post it.
On the other hand, the Libro de Behetrias credits the origins of this family
somewhere in the northern tablelands of Castile.
Salvador Moxo opens the origins of the Guzmanes with Rodrigo Nuñez de
Guzman, in the XII century, solidly ensconced somewhere in Extremadura
(then a part of Castile) and married to Godo Gonzalez de Lara, daughter of
Gonzalo Nuñez and Godo Gonzalez.
One of their sons was Pedro Ruiz de Guzman, mayordomo of Alfonso VIII, who
fought and died at Alarcos. His sons were:
Nuño Perez de Guzman, heading the branch of the Señores of Toral, and
Guillen Perez de Guzman, ancestor of the Dukes of Medina-Sidonia and many
others.
BTW, what's your information on Alfonso VI's connection to the Guzman
family?
Pedro Marin-Guzman
============================================================================
Francisco Antonio Doria
Dear Pedro,
I'd like to see that line, if you are willing to post
it. However, I insist on the possible Basque origin
for the name, as this -uz- in the middle of the word
sounds very Basque (cf. Guipuzcoa, euskara; my
knowledge of languages doesn't get to the Basque
language, but one can feel something out of the sound
of the word).
chico
--- Marin-Guzman <ped...@tpg.com.au> escreveu: > The
=====
Francisco Antonio Doria
_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas fáceis de usar, espaço de sobra e acessórios.
http://br.geocities.yahoo.com/
Bryant Smith
<SNIP>
> According to Pedro Barrantes Maldonado, biographer of the Guzman family in
> 1541, the family name is either a coruption of "goth man", "gottman" or
> "good man", which was the name given, by King Rodrigo I of Leon (842-850),
You've lost me here. I have Ramiro I, not a Rodrigo, as king 842-850.
Unless I'm wrong (perish the thought!) your statement below that
Heruspogio & Rodrigo's daughter named a son after Ramiro I doesn't
fit.
> to the patriarch of the Guzman family, a younger brother of Heruspogio, Duke
> of Brittany (son of Neomenio), when he came to his aid against the moors.
>
> This brother of Heruspogio then married a daughter of Rodrigo I of Leon. He
> explains their son was named Ramiro (after Ramiro I) de Guzman.
<SNIP>
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
Marin-Guzman
I meant to type Ramiro I.
Sorry for the slip up (unforgivable).
Pedro Marin-Guzman
============================================================================
> From: ski...@racsa.co.cr (Bryant Smith)
> Organization: http://groups.google.com/
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Date: 17 Sep 2002 10:03:13 -0700
> Subject: Re: Origin of the Spanish Name GUZMAN?
>
Marin-Guzman
digest form what Barrantes Maldonado proposes, in "Ilustraciones de la Casa
de Niebla" (1541), as the lineage of the Guzman family.
He starts with the "Kings" of Brittany:
(others precede these)
... Theodorico,
Ronvallon,
Daniel,
Aregstan,
Macono,
Neomenio, father of:
the man they called Gudeman, Guttman or Gothman (brother of Heruspogio),
first señor de Toral y Caliruega, c845 m. a daughter of Ramiro I of Leon
(842-850), the parents of:
Ramiro de Guzman, father of:
Martin Felix de Guzman, father of:
1. Felix de Guzman, señor de Caliruega, m. Juana de Aza (d. of Garcia
Garces de Aza), parents of St. Domingo de Guzman
2. Alvar Ruiz de Guzman m. Sancha Ruiz de Castro (d. of Rui Fernandez de
Castro "el Calvo"), the parents of:
Pedro Ruiz de Guzman m. Elvira Gomez de Manzanedo (sister of Count Gomez de
Manzanedo), the parents of:
1. Nuño Perez de Guzman
2. Guillen Perez de Guzman
Nuño Perez de Guzman m. Urraca Mendez de Sosa, the parents of:
Pero Nuñez de Guzman m. Urraca Garcia de Roa, the parents of:
Juan de Guzman m. Maria Ramirez de Cifontes, the parents of:
1. Pedro Nuñez de Guzman (s.p.)
2. Juan Ramirez de Guzman, m. Mari Garcia de Toledo
Guillen Perez de Guzman m. Elvira de los Cameros, the parents of:
Pedro de Guzman m. Teresa Ruiz de Brizuela, the parents of:
1. Mayor Guillen de Guzman
2. Alvar Perez de Guzman
3. Pero Nuñez de Guzman
and in a "high born woman" from Leon called Isabel, Pedro de Guzman fathered
an illegitimate child:
4. Alonso Perez de Guzman "el Bueno"
........... I could go on, but he meanders quite a bit taking account of all
the different branches of the family. In any case, from Alonso Perez de
Guzman "el Bueno", the genealogy is much more certain nowadays.
As you can see there are a number of errors. The patronymics are often
incorrect. He also seems to have skipped a number of generations as St
Domingo de Guzman was born in 1171, and so could not have been the grandson
of Ramiro de Guzman.
However he does make a very strong point in that the arms of the Guzman
family were the same as those of the Dukes/Kings of Brittany, at that time:
"...un escudo azul con dos calderas xaqueladas de amarillo y colorado, y
entre sus asas unas cabeças de sierpes con una orla blanca a la redonda del
escudo con armiños negros, que son las propias armas del duque de
bretaña..."
He also quotes Hernan Perez de Guzman, senor de Batres and chronicler of
King Juan II of Castile, in "Claros Varones de Castilla", and attributes to
him the theory of this man from Brittany.
Quite a mixed bag really but, for now, it might open the discussion.
I'll try and post what I've researched another day.
Pedro
============================================================================
> From: dori...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria)
> Organization: RootsWeb.com
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:05:12 -0300 (ART)
> Subject: Re: Origin of the Spanish Name GUZMAN?
>
>
David / Amicus
MacDonald?
Todd A. Farmerie
Marin-Guzman wrote:
>
> According to Pedro Barrantes Maldonado, biographer of the Guzman family in
> 1541, the family name is either a coruption of "goth man", "gottman" or
> "good man", which was the name given, by King Rodrigo I of Leon (842-850),
recte: Ramiro I
> to the patriarch of the Guzman family, a younger brother of Heruspogio, Duke
> of Brittany (son of Neomenio), when he came to his aid against the moors.
This connection seems a stretch. I wonder what the basis for
this might be. (For those more familiar with the French/English
forms of these names, these men are Nominoë, who d. 851, and
Erispoë, reigned 851-857) Among other things, this brother of
Erispoë would have been the heir of Brittany following the death
of his brother. The chronology here would have placed this
brother in Asturias prior to the death of his father (before the
death of Ramiro), but it is difficult to think of a scenario in
which the son of a semi-autonomous Breton state would travel to
Asturias. The usual explanations - religious or seeking fame,
would be opportunities available to him at home, what with the
Franks and Vikins to deal with.
> This brother of Heruspogio then married a daughter of Rodrigo I of Leon. He
> explains their son was named Ramiro (after Ramiro I) de Guzman.
This is not the form that the name would have taken at the time.
The explanation here would make this a patronym, but
patronyms did not use the "de" article, but rather he would be
something like Ranimirus Guzmani - or Ramiro Guzmanez by modern
usage. The "de" article came to be used for toponyms only in the
11th century (or so).
> BTW, what's your information on Alfonso VI's connection to the Guzman
> family?
Perhaps I was too affirmative in stating this. Traditionally,
Rodrigo Muñoz de Guzman was brother of Jimena Muñoz, (or rather
Rodrigo and Jimena Nuñez), and made children of a Count Nuño
Rodriguez by Jimena Ordoñez, granddaughter of Vermudo II. This
solution is problematic on two levels. First, the chronology
(making Roderigo brother of Jimena) is flawed, as Rodrigo appears
at least one generation younger. Likewise, Rodrigo, son of Count
Munio Rodriguez and Jimena Ordoñez, died in 1086, apparently
without issue, and the only other siblings appears to have been
an Osorio Muñoz, and a half-sister Elvira Muñoz.
(the Munio/Muñoz - Nuño/Nuñez confusion has been discussed here
before)
However, there has been recent speculation (the Salazar
Acha-influenced Vajay chart) that brings together several loose
threads, leading to a speculated restoration of such a
relationship. Basically, Canal Sanchez-Pagin went through
several possibiliteis, and decided that Jimena Muñoz was sister
of nobleman Count Roderigo Muñoz, of Cantabria, (distinct from
the Guzman founder), and both children of Count Munio Gonzalez,
of Cantabria, son of Count Gonzalo Muñoz, of Asturias de
Santillana, son of Count Munio Gonzalez, of Alava. The Vajay
chart recognizes in this Count Munio Gonzalez of Cantabria the
Nuño Gonzalez (son of Gonzalo Nuñez, son of Nuño Gonzalez) named
by Salazar y Castro as the father of Lara founder Gonzalo Nuñez.
The tradition of relationship of the Guzman with Jimena, and
this reconstruction linking Jimena to the Lara, plus a similarity
of arms linking Guzman to Lara would seem to justify placing
Guzman founder Rodrigo Muñoz among the Lara. The ingenious
solution (perhaps too ingenious) is to make Rodrigo Muñoz de
Guzman the son of the Munio Muñoz who appears in documents with
Jimena Muñoz (which led to him being identified as her father,
although these documents do not specify a father/daughter
relationship), and making Munio and Jimena the uncle and aunt of
Gonzalo Muñoz de Lara.
The potential problems with this solution are numerous, and many
have been discussed here in the past. Just a few examples are
that I know of no document that actually calls the Lara founder
Muñoz, rather than Nuñez, so this house of cards may crumble
right there. Likewise, more recent scholars (more recent, that
is, than Salazar y Castro) had rejected his Lara filiation,
replacing it with one that makes Gonzalo Nuñez de Lara son of a
Nuño Alvarez. Further, the Guzman connection is not directly
attested, but rather derives from ancient traditions, corrupt in
their surviving form, and heraldry which may have originally
reflected political, and not genealogical, affiliation (both of
which types of evidence I have argued against in other cases).
Most important, though, is the format in which it was presented,
in a largely unreferenced chart compiled by a third party.
Without a full expository work on the topic, we are left to guess
as to what the supporting evidence might be. Thus it is out
there as speculation, to be kept in mind, but with many grains of
salt.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Although I think there are quite a large number of errors here, this is in
Noted.
> digest form what Barrantes Maldonado proposes, in "Ilustraciones de la Casa
> de Niebla" (1541), as the lineage of the Guzman family.
>
> He starts with the "Kings" of Brittany:
>
> (others precede these)
> ... Theodorico,
> Ronvallon,
> Daniel,
> Aregstan,
> Macono,
> Neomenio, father of:
British tradition traces them back to the family of King Arthur,
through a long list of invented "kings". Specifically, Nominoë
is made great-grandson of a King Budic (d. 799, which would give
us four generations in 52 years - alternatively, an earlier Budic
may have been intended, but he d. 544, making in 307 years
spanned by those same four generations). As to the names given
here, in Ronvallon, we see the Breton Rivallon (welsh Riwal), but
I am unaware of a Breton use of Daniel, while Argestan and
Theodorico appear Teutonic in origin, and thus unlikely to be
used by the insular Bretons of the time.
>
> the man they called Gudeman, Guttman or Gothman (brother of Heruspogio),
> first señor de Toral y Caliruega, c845 m. a daughter of Ramiro I of Leon
> (842-850), the parents of:
>
> Ramiro de Guzman, father of:
>
> Martin Felix de Guzman, father of:
> 1. Felix de Guzman, señor de Caliruega, m. Juana de Aza (d. of Garcia
> Garces de Aza), parents of St. Domingo de Guzman
> 2. Alvar Ruiz de Guzman m. Sancha Ruiz de Castro (d. of Rui Fernandez de
> Castro "el Calvo"), the parents of:
>
> Pedro Ruiz de Guzman m. Elvira Gomez de Manzanedo (sister of Count Gomez de
> Manzanedo), the parents of:
> 1. Nuño Perez de Guzman
> 2. Guillen Perez de Guzman
> As you can see there are a number of errors. The patronymics are often
> incorrect. He also seems to have skipped a number of generations as St
> Domingo de Guzman was born in 1171, and so could not have been the grandson
> of Ramiro de Guzman.
In fact, the traditional brothers, Felix, Alvar, and Pedro, have
just one (invented) generation, Martin Felix (replacing the
authentic Rodrigo Muñoz) between them and Ramiro, b. ca. 850.
(The parentage of Domingo is a second issue - traditionally son
of "Felix Ruiz de Guzman", this is problematic, as the third son
of Rodrigo was named, not Felix, but Fernando. I don't know
enough about Domingo to know if his patronym may be confused, or
if, alternatively, his connection to this kindred must be removed
in light of the removal of Felix from this family.
> However he does make a very strong point in that the arms of the Guzman
> family were the same as those of the Dukes/Kings of Brittany, at that time:
> "...un escudo azul con dos calderas xaqueladas de amarillo y
colorado, y
> entre sus asas unas cabeças de sierpes con una orla blanca a
la redonda del
> escudo con armiños negros, que son las propias armas del duque de
> bretaña..."
The problem with this is that, at the time of the supposed
connection, heraldry was 250 years in the future, and when it did
develop, it developed in a local context, only rarely revealing
connections taking place in a broader context, and then only when
the connection was relatively recent (what I am thinking of here
is the blue/gold of the descendants of Robert II of France, seen
checky in the Warennes, Beaumonts, and the Dreux counts, bendy in
the Burgundy counts, as well as the seme-de-lis Lis of the
kings). Further, the oldest Breton arms I can find is simply a
field of ermine, while the arms above - two lozengy (red and
gold) calderons with snakes issuing from them, on a blue
background with white border (two negros as supporters), is
entirely different.
taf
Pierre Aronax
Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> a écrit dans le message :
3D8CFAC8...@interfold.com...
<...>
> Further, the oldest Breton arms I can find is simply a
> field of ermine, while the arms above - two lozengy (red and
> gold) calderons with snakes issuing from them, on a blue
> background with white border (two negros as supporters), is
> entirely different.
The field of ermine is a relatively modern (14th century) modification of
the previous arms of the counts and dukes of Britany, which were a checky
az. and or with a gu. bordure and a canton of ermine (in fact originaly only
a mark of cadency from the arms of Dreux).
Pierre
Todd A. Farmerie
> Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> a écrit dans le message :
> 3D8CFAC8...@interfold.com...
>
>>Further, the oldest Breton arms I can find is simply a
>>field of ermine, while the arms above - two lozengy (red and
>>gold) calderons with snakes issuing from them, on a blue
>>background with white border (two negros as supporters), is
>>entirely different.
>>
>
> The field of ermine is a relatively modern (14th century) modification of
> the previous arms of the counts and dukes of Britany, which were a checky
> az. and or with a gu. bordure and a canton of ermine (in fact originaly only
> a mark of cadency from the arms of Dreux).
But are there no documented arms prior to the passage of the
title into this scion house of the French royal family? I know
that arms for neither neither Geoffrey not Arthur have survived.
How about Guy of Thours?
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
I did some digging on this question, and what I found is not
consistent with this explanation of the origins of the Breton
ermine coat. The earliest surviving seals of Dukes of Brittany,
those of Conan IV, Geoffrey, and Arthur, are (apparently)
non-heraldic. While the latter two are of a period when one
might have expected heraldry, they appear to have been copied
directly from the non-herladic coat of their predicessor. The
seal of Guy of Thours does not survive, although a surviving
description makes it sound similar to the earlier four (Arthur
had two different ones).
The earliest surviving heraldic seal that I found illustrated is
the secret seal of Peter (of Dreaux), 1219, and it depicts a
cheque coat, without difference. The next was the small seal of
his son John I, from 1253, which depicts the ermine coat, while
his 1263 Great seal appears to display the undifferenced cheque
of his father. Thus, in actual usage, the ermine coat predates
the differenced Dreux coat (with an ermine canton), rather than
deriving from it.
taf
Marin-Guzman
I don't believe it's Basque in origin and, yes, there is a place in Castile
called Guzman, but I think the place itself is named after the family (Nuño
Perez de Guzman, son of the mayordomo of Alfonso VIII, was THE Señor de
Guzman).
According to Pedro Barrantes Maldonado, biographer of the Guzman family in
1541, the family name is either a coruption of "goth man", "gottman" or
"good man", which was the name given, by King Rodrigo I of Leon (842-850),
to the patriarch of the Guzman family, a younger brother of Heruspogio, Duke
of Brittany (son of Neomenio), when he came to his aid against the moors.
This brother of Heruspogio then married a daughter of Rodrigo I of Leon. He
explains their son was named Ramiro (after Ramiro I) de Guzman.
Barrantes Maldonado then goes on to detail the Guzman genealogy all the way
to the XVI century. I don't believe all his information is correct, however,
for the sake of argument I'm quite willing to post it.
On the other hand, the Libro de Behetrias credits the origins of this family
somewhere in the northern tablelands of Castile.
Salvador Moxo opens the origins of the Guzmanes with Rodrigo Nuñez de
Guzman, in the XII century, solidly ensconced somewhere in Extremadura
(then a part of Castile) and married to Godo Gonzalez de Lara, daughter of
Gonzalo Nuñez and Godo Gonzalez.
One of their sons was Pedro Ruiz de Guzman, mayordomo of Alfonso VIII, who
fought and died at Alarcos. His sons were:
Nuño Perez de Guzman, heading the branch of the Señores of Toral, and
Guillen Perez de Guzman, ancestor of the Dukes of Medina-Sidonia and many
others.
BTW, what's your information on Alfonso VI's connection to the Guzman
family?
Pedro Marin-Guzman
============================================================================
> From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
> Organization: As little as I can get away with
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:12:55 -0600
> Subject: Re: Origin of the Spanish Name GUZMAN?
>
Marin-Guzman
Pedro Marin-Guzman
============================================================================
Francisco Antonio Doria
Dear Pedro,
The name sounds basque to me because of the uz/iz
combination; must have been a place name, I guess. On
the origins, I only know what is in the lineage books,
but certainly there is more recent research. Let me
see what I can find.
Best, chico
--- Marin-Guzman <ped...@tpg.com.au> escreveu: > The
=====