Richard de Lucy and mother Avelina
Norman
fyi.
Henry I charters - summer 1131 Dieppe
"Ad dominium autem et proprium usum Sagiensis episcope damus et
confirmamus totumfeodem Alodii (Laleu, Orne) quem tenuit Guillelmus
Ghot, hoc est quicquid ipse habuit inter Sartam et Tancham tam in
terries quam in pratis et aquis et molendinis et silvis et hominibus
et telonesis et consuetudinibus et omnibus omnino rebus, sicut idem
Guillelmus quietus et liberius tenuit tempore patris mei; quem feodum
ego emi de nostra propria pecunia de Avelina nepte ipsius Guillelmi
et Ricardo de Luceio filio ipsius Aveline et de justis heredibus
predicti Alodii, et ipsi, Avelina scilicet et Ricardus, et iusti
heredes eiusdem feodi eum in manu Roberti filii nostri comitia
Glocestrie videntibus multis reddiderunt et postea coram me
vendicionem istam cognoverunr et confirmaverunt et eam quietam de se
et suis heredibus cesserunt."
regards
Norman Lucey
Norman
Further to my earlier post -
I have been struggling with the translation of this early record for
Richard de Lucy (Ricardo de Luceio) - I am no latin scholar, but it
appears (if I have translated it correctly) to infer that Aveline
(mother of Richard de Lucy) was the grand-daughter (nepte) not neice
of William Ghot - not Goth, although this may be the same individual?
This charter has been transcribed from the "Red Book of Seéz". It also
notes that Aveline and Richard held unequal portions of this Laleu
inheritance and therefore had to sell to the King as 'joint owners',
for the benfit of Henry's illegitimate son Robert of Gloucester. Am I
also correct in assuming from the text that William Ghot, was still
alive at the time of this transaction?
Any assistance with this would be gratefully appreciated as it appears
to be at variance with, and pre-date, the Feb. 1131, Rouen Charter -
which is the first known reference to Richard. Many thanks in
anticipation,
regards
Norman Lucey
Norman
Has anyone managed to discover the connection between Richard de Lucy
and his ancestor Fulbert de Lucy?
In a charter of 1166, Richard de Lucy confirmed that his ancestors
performed the service of Castle Guard at Dover.
Reading various early 19th century texts, Fulbert de Lucy, Lord
Chilham, who married Athelix, was one of the eight knights who under
the command of Sir John de Fiennes, built and maintained one of the
eight towers erected as an additional defence at Dover Castle. Fulbert
would be the correct age.
Apparantly John de Fiennes acted as Constable at Dover for a very
short period after the disgrace of Bishop Odo in 1084 - he apparantly
died in 1085, but the responsibilities were taken on by his son and
grandson, both named James from 1048 and 1111 respectively. We are
told John was the third son of Eustace of Boulogne and Alice of
Silvesse (I have no previous record of an Alice).
Chilham or the later named Calderscot Tower at Dover Castle was built
and maintained by Fulbert de Lucy, named after his estate at Chilham.
He later styled himself Dover. The keep at Dover was reconstructed
much later in 1180.
He had two sons,
(1) Hugh de Dover, who married Mathilde and died after 1168. He was
granted Chilham in 1140 but had no surviving male offspring and his
neice John, son of William de Dover became heir to the Chilham estate.
He was Sherriff of Kent 1143-1146, - this role was taken over by
Richard de Lucy in 1148 after he was recalled to England from Falaise
in 1140.
(2) William de Dover, who was alive in 1140 and had three sons, John,
William and Ralph. John married Roesia de Lucy, daughter of Geoffrey
de Lucy and grand-daughter of Richard de Lucy. John was alive in 1140
and was the heir to his Uncle Hugh's estate of Chilham. He died after
1174 when he made claims for "Garcote" - possibly Charlecote and
"Whittesage" in Warwickshire and Leicestershire. Charlecote came
through the female line via Cecily de Lucy, around 1200 and her sons
William and Simon styled themselves de Lucy.
John and Roesia's son was Fulbert de Dover who was granted Chilham
Castle in 1180. It had been rebuilt in 1171-74.
Fulbert de Dover's seal is a Chequy a Luce hauriant (a single Luce
over a chequered background).
Query - is Richard de Lucy an illegimate son of Fulbert or Hugh de
Dover/de Lucy ?
I have also been checking out possible relatives. There is a record of
a Geoffrey de Lucy (monk) mentioned at Savigny in 1137 (possibly a
younger son). A group of monks from Savigny formed Jervaulx,
Wensleydale in 1145 among other English settlements. A Ralph de Lucy
is recorded in 1140-48 in a charter regarding Foucarmont. Their first
Abbott came from Savigny when it was founded in 1130. Richard's
brother, Walter de Lucy was initially a monk at Lonlay-l'Abbaye, which
is only five and an half miles from Domfront. Another of Richard's
brothers was Robert de Lucy of Chrishall and Elmdon, Essex.
Richard de Lucy is recorded as Lord Gouviz and Baron Cretot and
militarily responsible for the Baliwick of Passeis, near Domfrort, of
which Lucé forms a part, in 1172. Despite the problems with the Battle
Abbey Rolls, the surname Lucy does occur in several versions, but with
no Christian name; however Fulbert de Lucy would probably have been
born after 1066.
Incidentally, was Richard de Lucy's wife Rohese buried at Holy Trinity
Priory, Aldgate or Faversham Abbey (both founded by Stephen and
Matilda) or in the Crypt of Canterbury Cathedral - or will we never
know? Every early source varies.
Norman
Further extracts:-
From History of Kent by W.H.Ireland 1829
"Fulbert de Dover's Tower was erected by Fulbert de Lucie, who
accompanied the Conquerer to England. Being appointed one of the
knights to defend the fortress, by John de Fiennes, he assumed the
name of Dover, and on his personal services being no longer required
at the castle, retired to his baronial residence of Chilham: his
successor, Hugh de Dover, his son, and Richard de Dover, a descendent
of the latter, held the vast possessions of his progenitors: he
ultimately retired to the abbey of Lesnes, which he had founded in
1179; and dying there, this famous name became extinct, when the
estates passed, by the marriage of a female relative, to an
illegitimate son of King John"
NB: This history even goes as far as stating Richard de Dover (ie.
Lucy) was the descendent of Hugh de Dover.
From History of Town and Port of Dover by Rev. John Lyon 1814 (page
94)
The history states that Richard de Dover (Chief Justice) was probably
interred with some of his ancestors at Lesnes, for on digging up the
foundations of the chapel in the reign of King James, the workmen
discovered a vault in which there were several coffins, richly
ornamented, with the arms - Gules, three lucies hauriant, between
eight cross crosslets, or.
In 1140 Hugh of Chilham granted the Church of Chilham to the Church of
St. Bertin for his soul, and that of his father Fulbert de Dover,
mother Adelit, his relations and that of Matilda his wife. In
Domesday, Fulbert is entered as holding Chilham of the Bishop of
Bayeux. On the Bishop's forfeiture and the creation of the Barony of
Fobert, as one of the eight Lordships constituting the Constabulary of
Dover Castle, the King granted Chilham, as part of that Barony, to
Fulbert. This Barony consisted of 15 knight's fees of which Chilham
furnished two. The Manor of Kingston was part of the lands given by
the Conquerer to Fulbert de Dover, being held "in capite" by barony.
In the 1600's this was sometimes known as the Barony of Fobert or
Chilham.
Norman
also agrees that Richard de Lucy's father was Robert de Lucy together
with listing his wife as Rohese and Richard's brothers, Walter and
Robert.
He cites that "from another charter it appears that this Robert was
brother to Walter de Lucy, Abbot of Battle, who is known to have been
brother to Richard, the founder of Lesnes; thus Robert de Lucy (the
elder) was the father of all three brothers."
"A copy of the charter is preserved amongst the state papers of Henry
VIII. He calls himself Robert, son of Robert de Lucy and continues:
'Be it known that I have given for the love of God and the good estate
of my most dear lord Richard de Lucy and for the souls of my father
and mother and of all the faithful, to the Abbey which the said lord
Richard de Lucy founded at Westwood, in Lesnes, in honour of God and
the blessed Thomas the Martyr" (ref: PRO vol. 4 no. 3587).
There is also reference to "Anselm de Lucy, who granted to the Church
of St. Thomas the Martyr of Leanes, for the benefit of his soul and
for the soul of Richard de Lucy, his father, and Richard de
Montfichet, his son 40s of rent out of its land at Thorney, by
Stowmarket, Suffolk". Obviously a previously unrecorded son of Richard
de Lucy (Justiciar). Geoffrey de Lucy, Constable of Berkhamsted was
also a benefactor. On the death of Richard de Lucy the patronage of
Lesnes was continued by Godfrey de Lucy, his son, who entered the
Church and became Bishop of Winchester (1189-1204).
From other references, it is recorded that Emma de Lucy, granted to
the Abbey a quit rent of 3s payable by Lesnes Abbey in respect of 12
acres held in Elmsdon (Essex); the money provided by herself and her
brother Robert de Lucy and her lord Serlo de Marcia. Emma was the
sister of Richard de Lucy.
In the mid 1100's , Geoffrey de Goreham or Gorron (born in le Mans),
the Abbott of St. Albans (1119-1146) was summoned from Maine and he
was also a kinsman of Robert de Lucy who he 'introduced to the royal
circle' Walter de Lucy, brother to Richard de Lucy, originally a monk
of Lonlay, lived for some time with Geoffrey de Gorham (again noted as
a relative) prior to being appointed the Abbott of Battle Abbey
(1139-1171).
On Richard de Lucy's tomb in Lesnes Abbey was written the following
epitaph:-
"Rapitur in tenebras RICHARDUS lux Luciorum
Jufticie pacis dilector & vrbis honorum
CHRISTE fibi requies tecum fit fede piorum.
Julia tunc orbi lux bis feptena nitebat,
Mille annos C. nouem et feptuaginta mouebat:"
Some other contemporary individuals with this name were:-
(1) Maurice de Lucy (a relative of Geoffrey de Lucy, who became Warden
of the Channel Isles in 1204) who married Nichola de Barneville. He
was warden of the islands in 1206-7 and again from 1224 to 1226;
killed during one of the invasions of Guernsey during the reign of
King John. He owned Sutton-Lucy in Widworthy and Lucyhays in Devon
during the reign of Henry II. Richard de Lucy had fought in Devon on
his return from Falaise in 1140. His son was Jordan de Lucy (this is
recorded in a writ of 29 January 1230).
(2) Alexander de Lucy, an official of Carlisle, who became Archdeacon
of Carlisle on 8th June 1203. He appears to have lasted less than a
year in this post. He does however witness a charter concerning the
parish church in Malden in 1216.
nor...@lucey.net
taf
> From the Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, a charter for
> Chrishall, Essex indicates that Robert de Lucy was the son of Eustace III,
> earl of Boulogne.
taf
Douglas Richardson
Madox, Formulare Anglicanum (1702): 178 includes a charter of Sir Richard de Lucy, Justiciar of England, dated 1157–63. The charter is witnessed by Robert de Luci his brother and Robert de Luci their nephew [nepote eorum]).
As such, it would appear that Robert de Lucy, of Chrishall, Essex was the justiciar's brother.
For extensive details on the Lucy and Boulogne families, please see my book, Royal Ancestry, 5 volume set, published in 2013.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
> From the Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, a charter for Chrishall, Essex indicates that Robert de Lucy was the son of Eustace III, earl of Boulogne. The relationship of Robert to Eustace, and the origin of Robert's jurisdiction over land in Chrishall may be explained by this, including Godfrey de Lucy calling Pharamus de Boulogne avunculus. Robert could be his illegitimate son (Round believes that Ralph and Eustace, sons of the Earl were also illegitimate). Later in another charter Richard de Lucy confirmed the land was granted to the Hospitallers "concessu Roberti de Lucy".
Richard Sorell, to whom the land had been given by count Eustace, see
here: https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880215.
For the charter mentioning this confirmation ("concessu Roberti de
Lucy"), see here: https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880219.
Nothing in either of these charters can be taken to suggest a blood
relationship between Robert de Lucy and Eustace.
Peter Stewart
Patricia Junkin
Pat
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On 18-Dec-17 12:42 AM, nor...@lucey.net wrote:
>
>
> For the charter mentioning this confirmation ("concessu Roberti de Lucy"), see here: https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880219.
>
> Nothing in either of these charters can be taken to suggest a blood relationship between Robert de Lucy and Eustace.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
>
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Peter Stewart
> I study Horne, Horley and Burstowe, Surrey. Eustsce of Boulogne held parts of Walkhamsted (Godstone). I am not certain of the numbering you use but this Eustace was said to have married an Anglo Saxon. The de Lucys held this land after Eustace.
Dreux count of Mantes, daughter of Æthelred II and Emma of Normandy.
They had no offspring.
Eustace III was Eustace II's eldest son by his second wife, St Ida of
Lorraine; he married Mary, a daughter of Malcolm III of Scotland and St
Margaret.
Eustace III's heiress was his daughter Mathilde, wife of King Stephen -
the latter granted some Boulogne holdings in England to the Lucys.
Peter Stewart
Patricia Junkin
Sent from my iPhone