Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, Sir Eustace d'Aube...
WJho...@aol.com
Revel, Saint Genevieve, Sampierre, etc to their ancestors
http://web.genealogie.free.fr/Les_dynasties/Les_dynasties_celebres/France/Dyna
stie_Flotte.htm
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
Interesting. Could Eustache have been known as Sanche
to his Spanish relatives ? In 1302 Isabelle, daughter of Philippe IV of France
was not yet Queen of England, and indeed only 10 years old. Sancho was the
name borne by the last members of Navarre`s original royal dynasty, which
Jeanne I, Isabelle`s mother was heiress to rhrough the intervening House of
Champagne. Thibaut I, King of Navarre had seven legitimate children and atb least
four illegitimate with a daughter Blanca ( by 2nd wife Agnes de Beaujeu
married to Jean I de Dreux, Duke of Brittany, plus daughters Beatrice, 3rd wife of
Hugues IV, Duke of Burgundy and Margaret, wife of Duke Frederick III of
Lorraine asa well as Kings Thibaut II (who had illegitimate issue) and Henri I of
Navarre.
A breif ancestry of Charles II, the Bad, King of Navarre runs:
1 Charles II , King of Navarre born 1361 died 1425
Parents: Charles I, King of Navarre born 1332 died 1387, Jeanne
of France born 1343 died 1373
grandparents: Philip III d`Evereux , King of Navarre born 1301- died 1343,
Jeanne II, Queen of Navarre born 1311 died 1349, John II, King of France born
1319 died 1364, Judith / Bonne of Bohemia born 1315 died 1349
Great grandparents : Louis , Count of Everux born 1276 died 1319,
Margaret of Artois died 1311
Louis X, King of France, Margaret of Burgundy, Philip VI, King of France,
Jeanne of Burgundy (sister of Margaret), John of Luxembourg , King of Bohemia ,
Elizabeth of Bohemia
2nd Great Grandparents : Philip III, King of France, Mary of Brabant,
Philip , Count of Artois, Blanche of Brittany, Philip IV, King of France,
Jeanne I, Queen of Navarre, Robert II, Duke of Burgundy, Agnes of France,
Charles, Count of Valois, Margaret of Naples, Robert II, Duke of Burgundy, Agnes of
France, Henry VII of Luxembourg, Holy Roman Emperor, Matilda of Brabant,
Wenceslas II, King of Bohemia, Guta of Habsburg
(Sources : Mac Lagan and Louda`s Heraldry of the Royal Families of
Europe (Navarre, France, Bohemia, Stirnet.com Blois 2
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< father of Eustace ("que les
Historiens Anglais nomment mal Sanche ou Sanche d'Ambercicourt,") >>
Does this mean something like
"Who the English History names badly Sanche ?"
I'm very bad at reading French.
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
farm...@interfold.com writes:
<< You are speculating that Eustace was related to Pain Roet, a Gascon,
and Sanche (Sancho/Sans) is a Euskaran (Basque/Gascon) name, so what's
the problem? >>
That his Gascon name was so unfamiliar to the English ear, the he changed it
to Eustache? Could the be possible?
Will
Jwc...@aol.com
I have discovered a possible
relationship between Eustace d`Brichecourt and King Charles II of Navarre but it is so
distant that it is in my opinion unlikely that Charles would have referred to
the old man as "tres cheirie et feal cousin " ( ? very dear and faithful
cousin) as Douglas mentioned in his intial post.
Jacques d`Avesnes who married Ameline de Guise
was father of Bouchard d`Avesnes who married Marguerite, Countess of
Hainault and Flanders and of Ida d`Avesnes, wife of Engelbert IV d`Enghien, Lord of
Enghien
Bouchard, in addition to Jan I, Count of Hainault had a son Baldwin, Sire de
Beaumont- Avesnes while Ida had a son Sohier II d`Enghien, Lord of Zottenghem
Baldwin of Beaumont-Avesnes had a daughter Beatrice, wife of Henry III,
Count of Luxembourg while Sohier II d`Enghien had a daughter Ida d`Enghien who was
wife to Gilles III de Traziegnies, Lord of Traziegnies
Beatrice of Beaumont- Avesnes had Henry VII, the Holy Roman Emperor while Ida
d`Enghien had Agnes de Traziegnies, wife of Eustace V, Sire de Roeulx
Henry VII, Holy Roman Emperor had John, King of Bohemia while Agnes de
Traziegnies had Gilles dit Rigaut, Sire de Roeulx
John, King of Bohemia had Judith / Bonne , wife of King John II of France
while Gilles dit Rigaut de Roeulx had a daughter (Probably Agnes or Marie) de
Roeulx, wife of Nicholas d`Brichecourt
Bonne of Bohemia had a daughter Jeanne of France, wife of King Charles I of
Navarre while daughter de Roeulx had Eustace d`Brichecourt
Jeanne of France was the mother of Charles II, King of Navarre see
Genealogics.org, Genealogie Famille de Carne (website) and Judy Perry`s Katherine
Swynford blog on the Fall of the House of Roeulx, plus Douglas Richardson`s posts
in this thread.
pierre...@hotmail.fr
Dates can help. You are confusing your Charles: the one called Charles
II above in that thread is the one you call now Charles I, and your
Charles II is in fact Charles III (and was only five years old in
1366 when Sir Eustace was styled "très chiere et féal cousin" by the
King of Navarre). Ergo Jeanne of France is the wife not the mother of
Charles II.
Pierre
Jwc...@aol.com
I just
found some information on the d`Auberchicourt family in french, apparently, the
first lord was a Walter I d`Aubercourt who died in 1209 when the lordship was
divided between his sons Walter II, Sire d`Auberchicourt celle and his
brother Eustache I d`Auberchicourt, Sire de Bugnicourt. a generation or so later
Nicholas II d`Auberchicourt aller combatre Ecosse avec Jean de Beaumont, his son
Nicholas III succeeded him as Sire de Bugnicourt and He aided England
againest France and was made provost of Valenciennes, captain d`Enghien and captain
of Nottingham, his brother Eustache joined the Grand Compamy, fought at the
battle of Nogent and was captured at Poitiers, He was ta knight of the Order of
the Garter. John, a younger son of Nicholas III also was made a Knight of the
Order of the Garter. Some lands were gained by the Sires d`Auberchicourt and
Bugnicourt were d`Estaimbourg, de Bernissart, de Beuvriere, and Pieton came to
them early on.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/11/2007 3:07:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
pierre...@hotmail.fr writes:
less deep ignorance and is far less comical than
your senseless "mal Sanche". I doubt any English schoolboy would make
such error after a year of French course.
Wouldn't a French course teach the words for good and bad in the first week
or so? I never took French, but I took Spanish, so I can make very labored
guesses at what a few simple French words might mean.
Will
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/11/2007 3:51:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
denis.b-at-f...@fr.invalid writes:
Et si on continuait cette discussion en français, histoire de voir
qui est francophone ici ?
That would quite possibly (sans doute?) be quite hillarious.
pierre...@hotmail.fr
> In a message dated 2/11/2007 3:51:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>
>
> Et si on continuait cette discussion en français, histoire de voir
> qui est francophone ici ?
>
> That would quite possibly (sans doute?) be quite hillarious.
J'en serais ravi (je poste en français à l'occasion), mais je ne
voudrais pas exclure ainsi de la présente discussion ceux qui ne
maîtrisent pas cette langue. Je n'ai en aucun cas voulu dire qu'il
était indispensable de parler un français impeccable pour avoir le
droit de s'intéresser aux généalogies de familles françaises, mais
cela suppose un minimum de curiosité pour cet idiome et surtout un peu
de modestie : une chose est de ne pas savoir le français, ce qui n'est
nullement un crime (beaucoup dans ce groupe sont prêts à aider ceux
qui rencontrent des difficultés de ce type et demandent poliment
assistance), une toute autre chose est de se prétendre un expert en la
matière et de pérorer sottement alors qu'au vrai l'on n'en comprend
pas un traître mot et que l'on pousse le manque de sérieux jusqu'à se
dispenser de compulser les dictionnaires. Faire de la généalogie,
particulièrement médiévale, cela requiert tout de même un brin
d'effort intellectuel, une dose de bonne foi et une bonne mesure
d'humilité, toutes qualités qui manquent cruellement à Monsieur
Richardson, comme il s'emploie à le démontrer journellement ici depuis
des années.
Pierre
WJho...@aol.com
pierre...@hotmail.fr writes:
<< J'en serais ravi (je poste en français à l'occasion), mais je ne
voudrais pas exclure ainsi de la présente discussion ceux qui ne
maîtrisent pas cette langue. Je n'ai en aucun cas voulu dire qu'il
était indispensable de parler un français impeccable pour avoir le
droit de s'intéresser aux généalogies de familles françaises, mais
cela suppose un minimum de curiosité pour cet idiome et surtout un peu
de modestie : une chose est de ne pas savoir le français, ce qui n'est
nullement un crime (beaucoup dans ce groupe sont prêts à aider ceux
qui rencontrent des difficultés de ce type et demandent poliment
assistance), une toute autre chose est de se prétendre un expert en la
matière et de pérorer sottement alors qu'au vrai l'on n'en comprend
pas un traître mot et que l'on pousse le manque de sérieux jusqu'à se
dispenser de compulser les dictionnaires. Faire de la généalogie,
particulièrement médiévale, cela requiert tout de même un brin
d'effort intellectuel, une dose de bonne foi et une bonne mesure
d'humilité, toutes qualités qui manquent cruellement à Monsieur
Richardson, comme il s'emploie à le démontrer journellement ici depuis
des années. >>
And here is the Babelfish translation
"I would be charmed by it (I post in French on the occasion), but I would not
like to thus exclude from this discussion those which do not have a command
of this language. I do not have to in no case desired statement which it was
essential to speak impeccable French to have the right to be interested in the
genealogies of French families, but that supposes a minimum of curiosity for
this idiom and an especially little modesty: a thing is not to know French,
which is by no means crime (much in this group is ready to help those which
encounter difficulties of this type and require assistance politely), anything else
is to claim themselves an expert on the matter and to sottement orate whereas
with truth one does not include/understand a traitor word of it and that one
pushes the lack of serious until exempting itself to examine the dictionaries.
To make genealogy, particularly medieval, that requires all the same a bit of
intellectual effort, an amount in good faith and a good measurement of
humility, all qualities which Mr Richardson misses cruelly, as it gets busy to show
it daily here since years."
Which proves that Pierre has been foisting upon us the cruel hoax that he is
or speaks French. Au revoir mine contraire, etc ad litem infinitum. I think
I've proving my point and there's no use driving sausages into Frankfurt. And
for Pierre I have just one thing to say : "Veuillez enlever votre pied de mon
cheval, ou la police vous battra avec des sandwichs !"
I think my work is done here.
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
I
found a website on the area of Bugnicourt which contains the following information
on Eustache d` Auberchicourt namely that He served under Edward, the Black
Prince at the Battle of Poitiers and was taken prisoner. He remained in French
custody until ransom of 12000 francs was paid in 1370. He then entered the
service of Charles II, King of Navarre died 1387. An Interesting tidbit from
Genealogics.org, the Sires de Roeulx would have stood an excellent chance of
becoming Count of Flanders if They had decided to follow a Salic type succession
on the death of Count Baldwin IX., as Eustace I de Roeulx was son of Arnold of
Hainault and grandson of Count Baldwin II of Hainault.
Jwc...@aol.com
I
found a couple of interesting items recents. The first from a a PDF chart of the
de Mortaigne/ van Peteghem family shows Marie de Mortaigne as married to
Baldwin V de Douai, Seigneur d`Estaimbourg died 1381. They had a daughter referred
to on the chart as Isabeau d`Auberchicourt ,no husband mentioned.
According to the site Chronologie de la Seigneurie de Gourgechon, a Thierry
de Douchy was seigneur in 1254. a centurty later in 1354 Nicollon
d`Auberchicourt son nom apparait dans un recuil de droits seigneuraux (ADN B11951)
selon la meme source, Nicolon se desherite au profit de son frere en 1360
(meaning very roughly that Ncholas (probably III) d`Auberchicourt his named
appears among the record of rights of seigneurs and He disinherited his
brother from his share of the profits in 1360.) In 1370 He sold Gourgechon to Jean
de Bouttevillain in 1370
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< The first from a a PDF chart of the
de Mortaigne/ van Peteghem family shows Marie de Mortaigne as married to
Baldwin V de Douai, Seigneur d`Estaimbourg died 1381. They had a daughter
referred
to on the chart as Isabeau d`Auberchicourt ,no husband mentioned. >>
Do you have a specific citation to this chart?
Thanks
Will Johnson
katheryn...@gmail.com
all the stranger!
Does anybody have any idea what happened?? I've been trawling through
thick, scholarly tomes on the subject of 'English Intervention in
France and Portugal during the 100 Years War' and similar subjects...
lots of details but I'm still having a difficult time trying to weed
out just what happened to this (the Roeulx) family that seemingly also
didn't happen to Ligne and some of the other similarly high families
of Hainault.
Maybe it's something really plainly obvious to people in the know and
perhaps, plainly, I'm just not in the know.
If anyone can add some wattage to this particular dim bulb... ;-)
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
mj...@btinternet.com
I had the good fortune to do Latin at Grammar School, and to read
French and German in my undergraduate degree; having a reasonable
working knowledge of the first, and a passable fluency in the latter
two (particularly in reading them - your note made me smile, Pierre)
is of considerable benefit when it comes to mediaeval genealogy. If
folks are unable to express themselves satisfactorily in English -
unlike you and Denis - then it should be perfectly acceptable for them
to post in their native tongues here, rather than not post. As you
note, the group has various linguists who often kindly provide
translations for research purposes in the best collegial tradition; I
am always happy to have a stab if assistance is required.
MA-R
Peter Stewart
<katheryn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172129338.6...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Which, for me at least, makes the implosion of the family's fortunes
> all the stranger!
>
> Does anybody have any idea what happened?? I've been trawling through
> thick, scholarly tomes on the subject of 'English Intervention in
> France and Portugal during the 100 Years War' and similar subjects...
> lots of details but I'm still having a difficult time trying to weed
> out just what happened to this (the Roeulx) family that seemingly also
> didn't happen to Ligne and some of the other similarly high families
> of Hainault.
Roeulx was eventually inherited by the lords of Croy, became a countship in
the 16th century and belonged to the dukes of Croy from the 17th. The family
descended in a cadet line from the counts of Flanders & Hainaut died out in
the male line in 1287/8.
Peter Stewart
katheryn...@gmail.com
Roeulx, disinherited himself, his brother Fastre and his brother Huon
for reasons I don't understand and this allowed the inheritance to
pass back to the Count of Hainault, in turn allowing I think it was
the Empress Marguerite to grant it to the family of Croy. Why would
Eustace do that when there were plenty of male and female heirs
around?? Other Hainault families of similar status, such as Ligne,
Lalaing etc. didn't suffer this fate.
Maybe it's something very obvious but I still don't understand it.