Emperor Isaac II Angelo's wife Eirene
Chuck Owens
of Emperor Isaac II Angelos, Eirene, may have been a Tornikaina since
a document at Patmos names Konstantinos Tornikes as an uncle of their
son Emperor Alexius IV Angelos.
In addition, there was George (Georgios) Tornikes who offered an
eulogy for Emperor Isaac II Angelos, and he also wrote letters to the
Roman pontiff along with his younger brother Demetrius Tornikes on
Emperor Isaac II's behalf. I don't think anyone has been able to
connect these Tornikes brothers with the above Konstantinos Tornikes
but undoubtedly some relationship existed between them. Perhaps
Konstantinos was their father, uncle, or brother.
The other pertinent question is whether Eirene was a Tornikaina or was
Konstantinos Tornikes married to one of Emperor Isaac II's sisters.
Can anybody shed light on the Tornikes connection to the Angelos
family? Was Eirene a member of the Tornikes family?
Chuck Owens
Rob
Hi, Chuck
You should check out the Prosopography of the Byzantine World website
and see if there are information in it that you are looking for.
Good luck with it. It's an interesting website.
Chuck Owens
Thank you so much for posting this web site. It's very interesting.
Already I'm browsing through it to see what I can find. It does have
Konstantinos Tornikes as an uncle of Emperor Alexius IV Angelos.
Chuck
Don Stone
Chuck,
Thanks for calling this to our attention. We now have two sources from
the time of Emperor Isaac II which might give information about his
first wife Eirene(?).
1. There is a reference to Andronikos Palaiologos, probable son of
Georgios Palaiologos Komnenodoukas, megas hetaireiarches (Grand
Heteriarque), as beloved "gambros" [brother-in-law or son-in-law or
perhaps a slightly more distant relative] of Emperor Isaac II in a
document (from 1191, I think) printed in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus's
_Analekta ..._, II, Petersburg, 1894, p. 362. There are three
interpretations of this:
A. Andronikos Palaiologos was a brother of Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene(?).
B. The wife of Andronikos Palaiologos was a sister (or cousin or niece)
of Emp. Isaac II.
C. The wife of Andronikos Palaiologos was a sister (or cousin or niece)
of Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene(?).
I have appended extracts from a discussion of this on GEN-MEDIEVAL
several years ago. Near the end of this material is an argument from
"Pierre Aronax" that interpretation A is unlikely because of mention of
a blood relationship between Emp. Isaac II and Georgios, probable son of
Andronikos Palaiologos. By the same reasoning, interpretation C is unlikely.
2. The document at Patmos discussed above by Chuck above specifies that
Konstantinos Tornikes was an uncle of Emp. Alexius IV Angelos, son of
Emp. Isaac II and his first wife Eirene(?). There are three
interpretations of this:
D. Konstantinos Tornikes was a brother of Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene(?).
E. The wife of Konstantinos Tornikes was a sister of Emp. Isaac II.
F. The wife of Konstantinos Tornikes was a sister of Emp. Isaac II's
wife Eirene(?).
Note that A and D are incompatible with each other, but A is somewhat
unlikely and thus D is still a strong contender. E is possibly somewhat
less likely than D, since it seems that if Konstantinos Tornikes had
married the sister of the emperor, we would have heard of it.
I have checked the brief treatment of the Les Tornikioi on pp. 367-9 in
Christian Settipani's 2006 book /Continuité des élites à Byzance durant
les siècles obscurs: les princes caucasiens et l’empire du VIe au IXe
siècle/. He basically goes only up to Leo Tornikes, the rebel of 1047;
the time period of interest to us is outside of his scope.
-- Don Stone
Under the subject heading "First Wife of Isaac II Angelos," on 2000/01/18 I
(Don Stone) said the following:
> An article by Rudolf Hiestand, "Die Erste Ehe Isaaks II Angelus und
Seine
> Kinder" in _Jahrbuch der Osterreichischen Byzantinistik_ 47 (1997):
199-208,
> gives the children of Isaak II [I'll follow his spelling] by his
first wife
> Eirene as Euphrosyne (who became a nun), Eirene-Maria (m. 2nd Philipp of
> Swabia), and Alexios IV, and the children by his second wife
> Margarete-Maria of Hungary [later married to Bonifaz of Montferrat] as
> Manuel and Johannes. This is basically in agreement with ES II: 179, for
> example. Some of the new information in this list comes from necrology
> notices of Speyer Cathedral, which name the Empress [Irene-] Maria, her
> parents Isaac and Irene, her elder sister Euphrosyne (named, following
> the Byzantine pattern, after her paternal grandmother) and brother
> Manuel.
>
> Morris Bierbrier's "Medieval and royal genealogy update" column in the
> March 1999 issue of _Genealogists' Magazine_ gives a partial summary of
> the article by Hiestand; this is where I learned of its existence.
>
> Hiestand's article is of special interest because it explores the
> hypothesis that the first wife of Isaac II is a member of the
> Palaiologos family, perhaps the daughter of Georgios Palaiologos
> Komnenodoukas, megas hetaireiarches (Grand Heteriarque). This is based
> on a reference to Andronikos Palaiologos (probable son of Georgios) as
> beloved "gambros" [brother-in-law or son-in-law, though the former is
> more likely] of Emp. Isaac II in a document (from 1191, I think) printed
> in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus's _Analekta ..._, II, Petersburg, 1894, p.
> 362. Unfortunately, the genealogy of the early Palaiologoi is somewhat
> murky. In any case, _The Doukai_ by Demetrios I. Polemis, 1968,
> asserts (top of p. 156) that Georgios had a son Alexios by an
> unidentified wife.
>
> Georgios Palaiologos's wife might be Aspae, a cousin of the Georgian
> princess Kata or Katae; Aspae and Katae are mentioned in a scholion to
> the histories of John Tzetzes. (See, e.g., Paul Gautier, "La Curieuse
> Ascendance de Jean Tzetzes," _Revue des Etudes Byzantines_ 28 (1970):
> pp. 207, ff., esp. pp. 208-9. See also A. Kazhdan, "Rus'-Byzantine
> Princely Marriages in the Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries," _Harvard
> Ukrainian Studies_ 12/13 (1988/1989): 414-429, esp. p. 423. And
> finally, see Jean-Claude Cheynet and Jean-Francois Vannier, _Etudes
> Prosopographiques_, 1986, esp. pp.156-158, 162-163.)
>
> Katae married (as second wife) Alexios, son of Emp. John II Komnenos.
> This is a different princess Kata from the one (probably a generation
> earlier), daughter of David IV the Builder (b. 1070, king from
> 1089-1125, d. 1125), who Rafal Prinke has shown was the wife of the
> sebastokrator Isaak Kommnenos and the mother of Emp. Andronikos I
> Komnenos. Cheynet and Vannier, p. 162, say that Alexios married his
> first wife Dobrodeja in 1122, that she died in 1131, and that he then
> married Katae, who was probably (from chronological considerations) a
> daughter of the Georgian king Demetrios I (d. 1156/8), son of David the
> Builder. At court Katae used the first name Eudocia. On the following
> page they say that Aspae was married to a Palaiologos ca. 1135; Hiestand
> says (p. 206) the marriage took place ca. 1145. Cheynet and Vannier
> call attention to a letter of Tzetzes addressed to the wife of the Grand
> Heteriarque at the time of the march of the Germans against
> Constantinople in July-Aug. 1147; they believe that this Grand
> Heteriarque is George Paleologus and that his wife (to whom the letter
> was addressed) is perhaps Aspae.
>
> There is thus the possibility of a Georgian royal descent for the first
> wife of Isaac II Angelos, though it may be hard to confirm or pin down
> details.
Then followed this from me:
> Cheynet and Vannier have an entry (no. 23) for the Andronikos
> Palaiologos who was among the dignitaries present at the synod held
> under Emperor Isaac II Angelos in September 1191 and who was
> referred to as beloved gambros (brother-in-law or son-in-law) of the
> emperor.
>
> Since "son-in-law of the emperor" would have to mean "husband of a
> daughter of the emperor", I think that this meaning of gambros can be
> rejected. Of Isaac's two daughters, Euphrosyne became a nun before 1185
> (according to ES) and thus hardly could have married Andronikos
> Palaiologos prior to becoming a nun, while Eirene-Maria was about 10 at
> the time of this synod and married her presumed first husband, Roger of
> Apulia, in 1192.
>
> On the other hand, "brother-in-law of the emperor" could have three
> different meanings:
> (1) brother of the emperor's wife,
> (2) husband of the emperor's sister, or
> (3) husband of the sister of the emperor's wife.
> Of these, (1) is what Hiestand is promoting.
> Re (2): ES gives two sisters for Isaac; both of them married, but not,
> evidently, to Andronikos Palaiologos.
>
> Cheynet and Vannier say that one can suppose that Andronikos is the
> husband of a cousin or a niece of the emperor, which is stretching the
> literal meaning of brother-in-law. Can an expert on Byzantine genealogy
> comment on how likely this interpretation is (i.e., this stretching of
> the literal meaning)?
>
> At any rate, Cheynet and Vannier say that they don't know where this
> Andronikos fits into the Palaiologos family. They view him as distinct
> from the Andronikos who married the daughter of Alexios, son of
> Georgios.
On 2/28/03 in the same forum, Pierre Aronax said:
> "History Writer" < hbv...@aol.com <mailto:hbv...@aol.com>> a écrit
dans le message de news:
>
>> But John of Guant's father Edward III's matrilineal line, if correct
>> per roglo, includes a member of Palaiologos family. Interesting to
>> see that Edward appears to have had Bagratid Georgian/Armenian mtDNA:
>>
>> 1. Aspae Bagratid=Georgios Palaiologos Komnenodoukas, sebastos
>> +1167/1168 (son of Alexios Palaiologos)
>> 2. Eirene Palaiologina +1185=Emporer Isaak II Angelos
>
> Accumulation of hypothesis.
>
> The identification of Emperor Isaak II's first wife with a
Palaiologina is
> only an hypothesis, based on the fact that the protopanhypersebastos
> Andronikos Palaiologos (+ after 1191) was Isaak II's "gambros" (a
word which
> can describe more than one kind of relationships by marriage,
particularly
> "son-in-law" or "brother-in-law"). Even her Christian name, Eirènè,
is known
> only by a Western source. For my part I don't believe Isaak II was
married
> with a Palaiologina: for various reasons, I think it is Andronikos'
wife who
> was a relative of Isaak II, and not the reverse.
>
> This hypothesis is combined here with an other hypothesis, making of
> Andronikos Palaiologos a son of the sebastos Geôrgios Palaiologos (I
think
> that, for anthroponomical reasons, this is highly probable).
>
> Then come a third hypothesis (suggested firstly by Jean-François Vannier)
> making of Aspaè, a relative of Kataè of Georgia wife of the
porphyrogenetos
> Alexios Komnènos (but not for that a Bagratide as stated above) , the
wife
> of Geôrgios Palaiologos. It can be exact, but that makes not for that of
> Aspaè the mother of the supposed son of Geôrgios, and even less the
mother
> of the supposed sister of this supposed son.
On 3/1/03, Pierre Aronax said:
> [Vannier's] hypothesis is very convincing of course, but that is not
for that
> that Geôrgios Palaiologos had only one wife. So, I think it is more
prudent
> to consider that Geôrgios Palaiologos' children are from an unknown
mother.
>
> Now to the question of Andronikos the "gambros": my basic reason to
think he
> was married to a relative of Isaak II, and not the reverse, is the son I
> give to him. I think that, if he was a son of Geôrgios the megas
> hetaireiarches, and since his (supposed) brother had probably no son,
then
> for anthroponimical reasons he must be the father of an other Geôrgios,
> attested in the last years of the 12th century.
>
> Then, this Geôrgios took part in the plot against Isaak II: speaking
of the
> conspirators, among which this Geôrgios, Nikètas Choniatès says that they
> were all "related by blood to the emperor" ("kata genos tô basilei
> sunaptomenoi"). I am not a scholar in Choniatès, but I would be
surprise if
> he considered as a parentage "kata genos", "by the race", the fact to
be the
> son of the brother of a previous wife. On the other hand, if
Andronikos was
> married to a relative of Isaak II (probably a cousin), and if, as I
suspect,
> Geôrgios was the son of this marriage, to describe him as a relative
"kata
> genos" suits better. And so, Hiestand notwithstanding, I don't think
Isaak
> II was [ever] married with a Palaiologina. But perhaps I am wrong and
"kata
> genos" can have a broder meaning in Choniatès and can refer to a
parentage
> which is not really by blood: only a specialist of Choniatès
vocabulary can
> answer this question.
And then later the same day, Pierre Aronax said:
> The possibility of the relationship I propose (Andronikos married to a
> cousin/niece of Isaak II) was already suggested by J.-F. Vannier but,
if I
> record corectly, he didn't use the argument of the relationship between
> Geôrgios Palaiologos, son (in my hypothesis) of Andronikos), and
Isaak II,
> since he didn't make of this Geôrgios a son of Andronikos.
Chuck Owens
Thank you so much for your detailed post on Eirene(?). I agree with
you that possibility D. (Konstantinos Tornikes was a brother of Emp.
Isaac II's wife Eirene(?).) is a strong contender. I doubt that
possibility E. (The wife of Konstantinos Tornikes was a sister of Emp.
Isaac II.) is the case since Niketas Choniates only mentioned the
marriages of two Emp. Isaac II's sisters, Theodora Angelina and Eirene
Angelina. The marriages of Theodora Angelina and Eirene Angelina
appear in other sources as well. It would seem like Niketas Choniates
would have mentioned the marriage of one or another of Emp. Isaac II's
sisters to Konstantinos Tornikes if it had taken place. His failure
to mention another marriage makes possibility E. a doubtful one.
I didn't consider possibility F. (The wife of Konstantinos Tornikes
was a sister of Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene(?). ) before so I wonder
if it could be true. Possibility D. has the seemingly additional
advantage of explaining why Georgios Tornikes did an eulogy for Emp.
Isaac II and why Georgios and his younger brother Demetrios Tornikes
wrote letters to the Roman Pontiff on behalf on Emp. Isaac II. I'm
speculating that Georgios and Demetrios Tornikes could have been the
sons of Konstantinos Tornikes. Since Demetrios Tornikes had a son
named Konstantinos Tornikes, it's possible that Georgios and
Demetrios' father was Konstantinos Tornikes. In the this speculative
scenario, Georgios and Demetrios Tornikes would have been the nephews
of Emp. Isaac II through his wife Eirene(?).
In terms of the Palaiologos connection, possiblity B. (The wife of
Andronikos Palaiologos was a sister (or cousin or niece) of Emp. Isaac
II.) appears to be the best possibility given the unlikeliness of
possibilities A and C although the sister connection is unlikely given
what I mentioned above.
Chuck
Don Stone
(http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTINE%20NOBILITY.htm#EireneTornikainadied1184):
*KONSTANTINOS Tornikes* (-killed in Bulgaria [1206]), son of
*DEMETRIOS** Tornikes* (-1201). Adontz quotes a letter from Mikhael
Akominate addressed to Demetrios Tornikes which names his father
Konstantinos and his grandfather Demetrios. The /History/ of Niketas
Choniates names "/præfectus urbis Constantinus Tornicius/" as head of
the imperial guard which suppressed a riot in Constantinople in 1201.
I note that Konstantinos 216 in the PBW (Prosopography of the Byzantine
World, http://www.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/content/index.html), who died some time
after 1203, uncle of Emp. Alexios IV, is referred to as Eparchos in a
document at Patmos: Acts 2.122.12. (Eparchos = urban prefect.) PBW
dates this reference to 1099, which I think is a typo for 1199. Could
this Konstantinos be identical with the Konstantinos (above) who was
killed in Bulgaria in 1206? If so, this answers Chuck's question below
about the relationship of the Tornikes brothers Georgios and Demetrios
to Konstantinos, uncle of Emp. Alexios IV: Demetrios is the father of
Konstantinos.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> Thanks for calling this to our attention. We now have two sources from
> the time of Emperor Isaac II which might give information about his
> first wife Eirene(?).
>
> [snip]
>
> 2. The document at Patmos discussed above by Chuck above specifies that
> Konstantinos Tornikes was an uncle of Emp. Alexius IV Angelos, son of
> Emp. Isaac II and his first wife Eirene(?). There are three
> interpretations of this:
> D. Konstantinos Tornikes was a brother of Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene(?).
> E. The wife of Konstantinos Tornikes was a sister of Emp. Isaac II.
> F. The wife of Konstantinos Tornikes was a sister of Emp. Isaac II's
> wife Eirene(?).
>
> [snip]
>
Chuck Owens
Uncle of Emp. Alexius IV could have been the same Konstantinos who was
killed in Bulgaria in 1206. I also believe that Konstantinos 216 in
the PBW could be the same person as Konstantinos 20248 in the PBW
since each person held the office of Sebastos.
If Konstantinos, Uncle of Emp. Alexius IV, was the son of Demetrios,
and Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene (?) was a Tornikaina, dau. of
Demetrios, it could explain the close association that seemed to exist
between Emp. Isaac II and the Tornikes brothers Demetrios and
Georgios. I think the circumstantial evidence, scant as it is, fits
better the idea that Konstantinos Tornikes was the brother-in-law of
Emp. Isaac II as opposed to the idea that Konstantinos was Eirene
(?)'s brother-in-law.
Chuck
Don Stone
Yes, Konstantinos 20248 (named on seal 1987) could well be the same
person as Konstantinos 216 in PBW.
Similarly, Demetrios 20120 (named on seal 4034) could well be the same
person as Demetrios 152, who I presume is the Demetrios 3.c in Cawley's
MedLands (D152 and D3.c are both Logothetes). (In the MedLands Tornikes
chapter,
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTINE%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc204583747,
scroll down somewhat and look for "Two probable siblings, parents not
known;" under that, find Demetrios as number 3.c.) Here the case is
somewhat weaker that Demetrios 20120 named on the seal is the same as
Demetrios 152 whose various activities, dignities and offices are
itemized, since the seal does not give any office or dignity. However,
the fact that the seal was found in Bulgaria, where Demetrios 152's son
Konstantinos was killed around 2006, provides some support for
identifying Demetrios 20120 with Demetrios 152. I note that Cawley
lists the seal in his treatment of Demetrios 3.c but doesn't explicitly
claim that the seal belonged to this Demetrios.
-- Don Stone
Chuck Owens
person as Demetrios 20120. I'm wandering why Mr. Cawley would mention
the seal under Demetrios 3.c. unless he thought Demetrios 152 and
Demetrios 20120 were one and the same person.
Chuck
Don Stone
In writing about Byzantine nobles about whom we know very little, it is
probably a good strategy to mention a potentially relevant seal without
making any claims. We don't want to say Demetrios, father of
Konstantinos (d. 1206), and Demetrios of the seal are "probably the same
person." I believe we just don't have enough information for that
conclusion. (Has anyone seen Jean Darrouzès's /Georges et Dèmètrios
Tornikès, Lettres et discours/, a 382-page book cited by Cawley but not
seen by him? I wonder if there is any more detailed information there.)
I think that mentioning the seal under Demetrios's sketch is saying
implicitly that the seal could well belong to this Demetrios. The
sketches are probably more readable if they are not sprinkled with
"could well be the same as," "might be the same as," etc. In the same
vein, note that Cawley's sketch of Konstantinos doesn't even claim that
the Konstantinos who was head of the imperial guard which suppressed a
riot in Constantinople in 1201 is the same person as Konstantinos who
was killed in Bulgaria in 1206, though it is a good guess that they are
identical (these two pieces of information come from the same source,
namely Choniates).
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
> From MedLands
> (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTINE%20NOBILITY.htm#EireneTornikainadied1184):
> *KONSTANTINOS Tornikes* (-killed in Bulgaria [1206]), son of
> Konstantinos and his grandfather Demetrios. The /History/ of Niketas
> the imperial guard which suppressed a riot in Constantinople in 1201.
> The same source records in a later passage that "Dromi logothetam
> Constantinum Tornicem" was captured by the Bulgarians after the
> battle of Adrianople and later killed.
>
> I note that Konstantinos 216 in the PBW (Prosopography of the Byzantine
> World, http://www.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/content/index.html), who died some time
> after 1203, uncle of Emp. Alexios IV, is referred to as Eparchos in a
> document at Patmos: Acts 2.122.12. (Eparchos = urban prefect.) PBW
> dates this reference to 1099, which I think is a typo for 1199.
>
> the Konstantinos in MedLands (first paragraph above) who was killed in
> Bulgaria in 1206? If so, this answers Chuck's question about the
> Konstantinos, uncle of Emp. Alexios IV: Demetrios is the father of
> Konstantinos.
>
these members of the Tornice family (as he calls them, writing in French
in /Les dynasties de la Caucasie chrétienne de l'Antiquité jusqu'au XIXe
siècle: Tables généalogiques et chronologiques/, 1990). On p. 118 in
Table 15 (Bagratides - Taraun), generation 11(29), he gives Constantin
Tornice-Comnène, d. 1206, préfet de Constantinople, logothète du drome,
m. to ____ Comnène. So he is giving just information in my first
paragraph above (quoting more from MedLands than I did initially).
However, the Patmos Acts, cited in the second paragraph above, were not
published until 1980 (the citation from PBW is E. Branouse and M.
Nystazopoulou-Pelekidou, Βυζαντινὰ ἔγγραφα τῆς μονῆς Πάτμου 1.
Αὐτοκρατορικά, 2. Δημοσίων λειτουργῶν, Athens 1980).
-- Don Stone
Chuck Owens
book "George et Dèmetrios Tornikès. Lettres et discours" so I'm going
to go and check it out. My French is somewhat limited but I'll see
what nuggets may be waiting in this book. Hopefully there will be
hints or clues which might help us sort out these Tornikes family
members since we have limited data so far.
I was just thinking that if it was Eirene(?)'s sister who was married
to Konstantinos Tornikes, and if Konstantinos Tornikes who was uncle
of Emp. Alexius IV is the same Konstantinos who died in Bulgaria, and
was married to a Comnène, then it would stand to reason that Eirene(?)
would have been a Comnène (of course assuming that Konstantinos
Tornikes was married only once). On the other hand, if Konstantinos
Tornikes was Eirene(?)'s sister than she would have been a
Tornikaina. Since I find it rather doubtful that one of Emp. Isaac II
Angelos' sisters was married to Konstantinos then there's a very good
possibility that she was a Tornikaina or a Comnène (if the
Konstantinos are the same person).
Chuck
Chuck Owens
other hand, if Konstantinos Tornikes was Eirene(?)'s brother than she
would have been a Tornikaina."
Chuck
Don Stone
> I just discovered that my local university library has a copy of the
> book "George et Dèmetrios Tornikès. Lettres et discours" so I'm going
> to go and check it out. My French is somewhat limited but I'll see
> what nuggets may be waiting in this book. Hopefully there will be
> hints or clues which might help us sort out these Tornikes family
> members since we have limited data so far.
>
of Byzantium/ (1991) today. Besides the interesting biographical
material, the main genealogical point I took away from these sketches is
that MedLands has conflated two Georgios Tornikes. The one whose mother
is a niece of Theophylaktos of Ohrid and who was elected metropolitan of
Ephesus in 1155 is not the same as the one who is magistros ton rhetoron
(master of the rhetors) in the 1190s and who gave a speech/eulogy for
Emp. Isaac II ca. 1193. (The speech, incidentally, is printed in /Change
in Byzantine Culture in the Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries/ by A. P.
Kazhdan and Ann Wharton Epstein (1985), pp. 250-1.) I note that the ODB
doesn't explicitly say that the latter Georgios was a brother of the
logothete Demetrios, father of Konstantinos [and perhaps Eirene]. (And
according to MedLands, there is a third brother, Leon.) Maybe Jean
Darrouzès's /Georges et Dèmètrios Tornikès, Lettres et discours/ will
give more details on this generation.
> I was just thinking that if it was Eirene(?)'s sister who was married
> to Konstantinos Tornikes, and if Konstantinos Tornikes who was uncle
> of Emp. Alexius IV is the same Konstantinos who died in Bulgaria, and
> was married to a Comnène, then it would stand to reason that Eirene(?)
> would have been a Comnène (of course assuming that Konstantinos
> Tornikes was married only once).
Good point.
-- Don
Chuck Owens
Darrouzès "George et Dèmetrios Tornikès. Lettres et discours.", Paris,
Éditions du Centre national de la recherche scientifique, 1970. has
regarding the genealogy of the Tornikes family. Later on, I hope to
add more details and detailed citations.
There were three brothers:
George Tornikes, Metropolitan of Ephesus
Leon Tornikes
Demetrios Tornikes, Logothete
Their mother was a niece of Theophylactes (Theophylaktos).
(Darrouzès, page 13, chart on page 43)
Demetrios Tornikes married the sister of Euthyme Malakes. He had
three sons:
Konstantinos Tornikes, Sebastos, Logothete, Uncle (θεΐος) of Emperor
Alexius IV (Patmos, Acta, VI 327-329, Dec. 1203) m. Comnene ("...nous
arrivons en decembre 1203; Constantin est appele sebaste, oncle de
l’empereur et logothete du drome. Le terme θεΐος n’a de valeur qu’a
l’egard d’Alexis IV, qui regnait a l’ epoque associe a Isaac Ange,
revenu au pouvoir depuis le mois d’aout 1203; Constantin avait en
effet epose une Comnene, comme nous allons voir.") (Darrouzès, pages
34-35, chart on page 43)
Euthyme Tornikes
George (II) Tornikes
(Darrouzès, chart on page 43)
Konstantinos Tornikes married Comnene (“la belle-fille qui est issue
‘de la premiere et imperiale serie d’or des Comnenes’ (135, 19-20).
Ce mariage est probablemente posterieur a 1185, car il fallait une
certaine position sociale pour pretendre a la main d’une authentique
descendante de la ‘serie d’or’, qui se rattache au point de depart,
c’est –a-dire Alexis 1er….Ainsi les descendants de Constantin pourront
unir a leur nom de famille celui de Comnene, au cours du XIII
siecle"). (Darrouzès, page 37)
My crude translation of part of it:
Konstantinos’ wife Comnene was issue “of the first and imperial golden
succession of the Comnenes”. This marriage was probably after 1185,
for it was a certain social position to claim the hand of an authentic
descendant of the “golden succession” which had as it’s starting
point, that is to say, Alexius I.
My conclusions up to now:
Given that there’s no evidence that Konstantinos Tornikes was married
twice and given that his wife was a Comnene, a descendant of Emperor
Alexius I, it appears very unlikely that he was married to a sister
of Emperor Isaac II Angelos. In addition, it is doubtful that Eirene
(?) would have been a Comnene since according to Byzantine marriage
customs at the time, marriages of the seventh degree of consanguinity
were prohibited. Emperor Isaac II Angelos was a great great grandson
of Emperor Alexius I and Konstantinos Tornikes’ wife was a descendant
of Emperor Alexius I so it’s doubtful that Konstantinos’ wife’s sister
was Eirene(?)
It appears that given the evidence, the best conclusion that one can
draw from it is that Eirene (?) was a Tornikaina, sister of
Konstantinos Tornikes, daughter of Demetrios Tornikes. In addition,
since Eirene (?) was a Tornikaina, it helps explain the close
association that Emperor Isaac II Angelos had with Demetrios Tornikes
and George (II) Tornikes who wrote Emp. Isaac II’s eulogy in 1193. If
Eirene(?) was a Tornikaina, George (II) Tornikes was Emp. Isaac II's
brother-in-law.
Chuck
Don Stone
-- Don
Chuck Owens wrote:
> For the moment, I'm going to give a brief summary of what Jean
> Darrouzès "George et Dèmetrios Tornikès. Lettres et discours.", Paris,
> Éditions du Centre national de la recherche scientifique, 1970. has
> regarding the genealogy of the Tornikes family. Later on, I hope to
> add more details and detailed citations.
>
> There were three brothers:
> George Tornikes, Metropolitan of Ephesus
> Leon Tornikes
> Demetrios Tornikes, Logothete
>
> Their mother was a niece of Theophylactes (Theophylaktos).
> (Darrouzès, page 13, chart on page 43)
>
I agree with the /Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium/ that the George
Tornikes, Metropolitan of Ephesus in 1155, whose mother was a niece of
Theophylaktos (b. ca. 1055, d. after 1107), is an earlier George (b.
between 1110 and 1120, d. 1156/7 or 1166/7 according to ODB, citing
Darrouzès!!). The later George, who gave a speech/eulogy for Emp. Isaac
II ca. 1193, is presumably the brother of Demetrios Tornikes, Logothete
(above).
> Demetrios Tornikes married the sister of Euthyme Malakes. He had
> three sons:
> Konstantinos Tornikes, Sebastos, Logothete, Uncle (θεΐος) of Emperor
> Alexius IV (Patmos, Acta, VI 327-329, Dec. 1203) m. Comnene ("...nous
> arrivons en decembre 1203; Constantin est appele sebaste, oncle de
> l’empereur et logothete du drome. Le terme θεΐος n’a de valeur qu’a
> l’egard d’Alexis IV, qui regnait a l’ epoque associe a Isaac Ange,
> revenu au pouvoir depuis le mois d’aout 1203; Constantin avait en
> effet epose une Comnene, comme nous allons voir.") (Darrouzès, pages
> 34-35, chart on page 43)
This is a little confusing. Right after Darrouzès explains that
Konstantinos must be the uncle of Emp. Alexios IV, he says Konstantinos
had indeed married a Comnene, as if that that explained the relationship
of uncle???
loren...@merck.com
Who is Theophylactes whose niece was mother of Demetrios Tornikos? I
think I read on MedLands that the maternal grandmother of Demetrios
Tornikes was a daughter of Manuel I Comnenus by a mistress. Loren Varga
Don Stone
265 in PBW (http://www.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/pbw/apps/); click on ANON and then
find Anonymus 265. I doubt that the niece was the mother of Demetrios
Tornikes, but she was probably some relative (see my comments above,
based on the ODB). I don't think the mother of Demetrios is known, much
less the maternal grandparents.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
> For the moment, I'm going to give a brief summary of what Jean
> Darrouzès "George et Dèmetrios Tornikès. Lettres et discours.", Paris,
> regarding the genealogy of the Tornikes family.
Tornikes of particular interest to us), I should mention that Settipani
(/Continuité des élites à Byzance/, 2006, p. 367) says that the first
place to go for coverage of the Tornikes in general is Kazhdan (1975),
pp. 47-57. This work was published in Erevan perhaps in Russian (or
possibly Armenian, though it doesn't use the distinctive non-Roman
Armenian alphabet), but an English summary was published nine years
later in the book /Medieval Armenian Culture/, 1984, pp. 439-51: "The
Armenians in the Byzantine Ruling Class Predominantly in the Ninth
through Twelfth Centuries." Does anyone have easy access to this?
Otherwise, ILL is always a possibility.
-- Don Stone
Chuck Owens
Here are my comments:
> I agree with the /Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium/ that the George
> Tornikes, Metropolitan of Ephesus in 1155, whose mother was a niece of
> Theophylaktos (b. ca. 1055, d. after 1107), is an earlier George (b.
> between 1110 and 1120, d. 1156/7 or 1166/7 according to ODB, citing
> Darrouzès!!). The later George, who gave a speech/eulogy for Emp. Isaac
> II ca. 1193, is presumably the brother of Demetrios Tornikes, Logothete
> (above).
Yes. These two Georges and their relationship to Demetrios is
somewhat confusing to me. I tend to agree with the idea that the
later George was the brother of Demetrios but Darrouzès has the
earlier George as his brother. I'm going through the book trying to
figure out why he has the earlier George as Demetrios' brother.
> This is a little confusing. Right after Darrouzès explains that
> Konstantinos must be the uncle of Emp. Alexios IV, he says Konstantinos
> had indeed married a Comnene, as if that that explained the relationship
> of uncle???
At one time people believed Emp. Isaac II's wife Eirene (?) was a
Comnene but I haven't found any evidence to support the idea except
for Konstantinos Tornikes' marriage with a Comnene. Konstantinos'
brother Euthyme wrote in one of his letters that Konstantinos' wife
was a descendant of Emperor Alexius I (la belle-fille qui est issue
‘de la premiere et imperiale serie d’or des Comnenes’). Since Emp.
Isaac II was also a descendant of Emp. Alexius I, I believe that the
rules of consanguinity would make such a marriage unlikely, hence one
reason why I think Eirene (?) was a Tornikaina.
Chuck
Chuck Owens
> Tornikes was a daughter of Manuel I Comnenus by a mistress. Loren Varga
I believe you are referring to Demetrios Tornikes Comnene, the son of
Konstantinos Tornikes by his wife Comnene. What evidence is there
that Comnene's father was Emp. Manuel I? I don't see the mention of
Emp. Manuel I as the father of Konstantinos Tornikes' wife on
MedLands.
Chuck
loren...@merck.com
Hi Chuck: Sorry it was not Medlands. What I read was taken from
"Genealogy of the Komnenian Dynasty" by K.Varzos p.155. The info was
that a daughter name unknown of Manuel I by an unknown mistress born
@1155. She was maternal grandmother of the author Demetrios Tornikes.
Which Demetrios was the author? Loren
Don Stone
Komnenos (d. ca. 1252), as specified by Chuck above, son of the
logothete Konstantinos (killed ca. 1206) and his wife ______ Komnene
(who Varzos is saying is a granddaughter of Emp. Manuel I, being a
daughter of an illegitimate daughter of Manuel).
It is a little puzzling that Toumanoff gives the name of the logothete
Konstantine as "Constantin Tornice-Comn�ne." MedLands mentions "the
practice of adopting family names of relatives who did not belong to the
paternal line" but this wouldn't include adopting the family name of the
wife, would it?
-- Don
Chuck Owens
> practice of adopting family names of relatives who did not belong to the
> paternal line" but this wouldn't include adopting the family name of the
> wife, would it?
I also noticed that Emp. Alexius III's name is given as Alexius
Comnene Angelos. I'm guessing that Comnene came down from his
grandmother Theodora Comnena. I think that perhaps Toumanoff gave
Constantin's name as Tornice-Comnène to reflect the name of his wife.
His son Demetrios, the author mentioned before by Loren, used the name
Tornice-Comnène. It's possible that the earlier George Tornikes of
Ephesus had some sort of connection to the Comnene family given his
eulogy for Anna Comnena.
I noticed that I had made a mistake before in mentioning that Emp.
Isaac II was the great great grandson of Emp. Alexius I. He was
actually the great grandson of Emp. Alexius I.
I'm still going through Darrouzès' book and I have found one reason so
far why Darrouzès' thought the earlier George was the brother of
Demetrios. In George Tornikes' fourth letter (addressed to Andronicus
Comnenus), George briefly mentions his brother Demetrios. In another
letter, he mentions his brother Leon. I'll keep reading to see what
other evidence he has for the earlier George as the brother of
Demetrios.
What evidence or source does Varzos present for Konstantinos' wife as
a granddaugther or daughter of Emp. Manuel I?
Chuck
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
From: "Don Stone" <d...@donstonetech.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Emperor Isaac II Angelo's wife Eirene
<snip>
It is a little puzzling that Toumanoff gives the name of the logothete
Konstantine as "Constantin Tornice-Comn�ne." MedLands mentions "the
practice of adopting family names of relatives who did not belong to the
paternal line" but this wouldn't include adopting the family name of the
wife, would it?
-- Don
More often by the wife taking the husband's familyname; but apparently it
did happen. Just read through the prosopographies of the Doukai & the
Kantakuzenoi, (the two most readily available & accessible).
Ford
Chuck Owens
If anyone has anything to add, please feel free to do so. If there
are any errors, please feel free to point them out.
Thanks,
Chuck
A Summary of the Demetrios Tornikes Family
There were three brothers Georgios, Demetrios, and Leon Tornikes born
around the 1110-1120 time period. Their mother was a niece of
Theophylactes (Theophylaktos) of Bulgaria.
Georgios (George) Tornikes
He was born about 1110-1120 (19). He was elected metropolitan of
Ephesus in 1155 (9). His mother was the niece of Theophylaktos of
Ohrid (9) who was a native of “Eubée” (18). He has been confused with
with George (II) Tornikes whose career began in 1192 (11). George
Tornikes wrote from the time period of 1146 to 1156 (12). He was
successively “didascale du Psautier, puis de l’Évangile,
hypomnèmatographe, hypopsèphios (évêque-élu),” and metropolitan of
Ephesus (13). In his fourth letter addressed to Andronicus Comnenus,
he wrote from Constantinople in favor of his brother Demetrios, who
was at Branitsova (14, 16). In his seventh letter addressed to the
metropolitan of Athens, dated to about September 1154 (14, 15), he
mentioned his brother Leon. One of his most famous works was his
eulogy for Anna Comnene (17). He died sometime after 1156 (20).
Demetrios Tornikes
Demetrios Tornikes was a native of Thebes. His wife was a sister of
Euthyme Malakes, who was from Thebes also (18). He appears in the
History of Choniates as judge of the velum in 1183. In January 1186,
at the beginning of the reign of Emperor Isaac II, he was put into the
position of “l’encrier (kanikleion)” His first letter was addressed
to Michael Choniates.. The first mention of him as logothète is
September 10, 1191 by the deposition of patriarch Dosithee. From 1194
to 1198-1199, letters of Michael Choniates are addressed to logothète
du drome (21). He was a sebastos & epi tou kanikleiou (26). He wrote
a letter to the pope on behalf of Emperor Isaac II. He died aroud
1200 and his son Konstantinos immediately succeeded him in the
position (21).
There are two lines evidence that Demetrios was a brother of George
Tornikes.
1. George Tornikes in his fourth letter addressed to Andronicus
Comnenus dated to 1153-1154 wrote in favor of his brother Demetrios
(14, 16).
2. According to Jean Darrouzès citing Michael Choniates, Demetrios was
an old man “γέρων”, who was around 80 years old when he died (2).
Leon Tornikes
George Tornikes mentioned his brother Leon, who was in Athens at the
time, in his seventh letter addressed to the metropolitan of Athens,
dated to about September 1154 (14, 15).
Demetrios Tornikes had three sons.
1. Konstantinos (Constantine) (Constantin) Tornikes
He was sebastos, logothete, and uncle (θεΐος) of Emperor Alexius IV
(1, 4, 8). He was a préfet de Constantinople (eparcos) and logothète
du drome (8, 22). He was in the service of Baldwin. After the
capture of Constantinople in 1204, he perished after the battle of
Adrianople (4). He died in 1206 (22).
He married a Comnène (1, 4, 22) who was a descendant of Emperor
Alexius I (3). Specifically she was the daughter of an illegitimate
daughter of Emperor Manuel I (5).
He had a son Demetrios Tornikes-Comnène (3).
2. Euthymios (Euthyme) Tornikes
He wrote an eulogy for his father Demetrios (3). He took refuge in
“Eubée” after the capture of Constantinople in 1204 (18).
3. Georgios (George) (II) Tornikes
His career began in 1192 (11). He was “maistor des rhéteurs” from
1192. He was likely the son of Demetrios, and consequently the nephew
of the first George (23). He wrote an eulogy for Emperor Isaac II
(10).
Demetrios Tornikes almost certainly had one daughter who was almost
certainly the wife of Emperor Isaac II Angelos.
1. “Eirene” Tornikaina
She married Isaac Angelos who became Emperor Isaac II Angelos (6, 7).
The evidence that she was a Tornikaina is as follows:
A. Konstantinos Tornikes was the uncle of Emperor Alexius IV (8).
B. Konstantinos Tornikes was married to a Comnène. There is no
evidence that he had another wife other than Comnène. Niketas
Choniates mentioned only the marriages of two of Emperor Isaac II's
sisters, Theodora Angelina and Eirene Angelina. The marriages of
Theodora Angelina and Eirene Angelina appear in other sources as
well. Niketas Choniates mentions Konstantinos Tornikes as préfet. It
would seem like Niketas Choniates would have mentioned the marriage of
one of Emp. Isaac II's sisters to Konstantinos Tornikes if it had
taken place.
C. Konstantinos’ wife Comnène was at least a great great granddaughter
of Emperor Alexius I and Emperor Isaac II Angelos was the great
grandson of Emperor Alexius I. They were at least second cousins once
removed, having at least fifth degree of consanguinity. The rules of
consanguinity prohibited marriages within the seventh degree during
that time period. It is unlikely Emperor Isaac II’s wife was a
Comnène for this reason.
D. Konstantinos’ brother George wrote an eulogy for Emperor Isaac II
in 1193 in which refers to him as “the good gift from above”. (10).
The eulogy suggests that there was a close association between them.
E. Konstantinos’father Demetrios wrote a letter to the Pope on Emperor
Isaac II’s behalf (25).
F. Michael Choniates, a friend of Demetrios Tornikes (2), and
Konstantinos’ brother Euthyme respectively wrote eulogies for Emperor
Isaac II and Emperor Alexius III (24).
References and Sources
1. Jean Darrouzès, /George et Dèmetrios Tornikès. Lettres et
discours./
Paris, Éditions du Centre national de la recherche scientifique,
(1970), page 34-35, citing Patmos, Acta, VI 327-329, Dec. 1203
"...nous arrivons en décembre 1203; Constantin est appelé sebaste,
oncle de l’empereur et logothète du drome. Le terme θεΐος n’a de
valeur qu’à l’égard d’Alexis IV, qui régnait a l’ époque associé à
Isaac Ange, revenu au pouvoir depuis le mois d’août 1203; Constantin
avait en effet épousé une Comnène, comme nous allons voir."
2. Darrouzès, page 36, citing Michael Choniates
“Nulle part il n’est dit que Dèmètrios eut un frere metropolite
d’Ephese; mais il n’y a rien d’anormal dans ce silence, puisque ce
frere est mort au moins quarante ans auparavant. Michel Choniates
qualifie son ami défunt d’αδραμιαΐος γέρων, qui indique un âge
respectable autour de 80 ans.”
3. Darrouzès, page 37, citing the epitaphios of Euthyme Tornikes for
his father Demetrios Tornikes, “la belle-fille qui est issue ‘de la
premiere et imperiale serie d’or des Comnenes’ (135, 19-20). Ce
mariage est probablemente posterieur a 1185, car il fallait une
certaine position sociale pour pretendre a la main d’une authentique
descendante de la ‘serie d’or’, qui se rattache au point de depart,
c’est –a-dire Alexis 1er….Ainsi les descendants de Constantin pourront
unir a leur nom de famille celui de Comnene, au cours du XIII siecle
21”
21. George Aropolites appelle Demetrios (le fils de Constantin)
Tornikes Comnene: Bonn 97 = Hesienberg 90.
4. Darrouzès, page 43, genealogical chart of the Tornikes.
5. Loren Varga and Don Stone, soc.genealogy.medieval, August 21, 2009-
August 22, 2009 citing K. Varzos, /Genealogy of the Komnenian
Dynasty/, 157a
6. Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands, Byzantium 2,
Chapter 5, B, Isaakios II Angelos, Charles Cowley and FMG, copyright
2006-2009
7. Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands, Byzantine
Nobility, Chapter 35, Tornikes, Charles Cowley and FMG, copyright
2006-2009
8. Prosopography of the Byzantine World, http://www.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/pbw/apps/,
see Konstantinos 216 (Patmos: Acts 2.131.14 – uncle of Emp. Alexius
IV).
9. Don Stone, soc.genealogy.medieval, August 19, 2009
10. A. P. Kazhdan and Ann Wharton Epstein, /Change in Byzantine
Culture in the Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries/, (1985), pages 250-251
11. Darrouzès, page 5
12. Darrouzès, page 7
13. Darrouzès, page 8
14. Darrouzès, page 13
15. Darrouzès, page 216
16. Darrouzès, pages 107-108
17. Darrouzès, pages 20-24, 220-323
18. Darrouzès, page 26, for Theophylactos, citing Paul Gautier,
“L’épiscopat de Théophylacte Héphaistos, archevêque de Bulgarie, dans
Revue des É. Byz., 21 (1963), pages 159-178.
19. Darrouzès, page 27, determined by the fact that his maternal uncle
Theophylactos began his episcopal career about 1090.
20. Darrouzès, page 28
21. Darrouzès, page 33-34
22. Don Stone, soc.genealogy.medieval, August 17, 2009, citing Prince
Cyrille Toumanoff, /Les dynasties de la Caucasie chrétienne de
l'Antiquité jusqu'au XIXe siècle: Tables généalogiques et
chronologiques/, (1990), page 118, Table 15 (Bagratides - Taraun),
generation 11(29)
23. Darrouzès, page 40
24. Dejan Dželebdžic, “Pisma Jovana Apokavka Teodoru Duki” (Lettres de
Jean Apokaukos à Théodore Doukas), Byzantine Studies, Issue 45/2008,
page 139
25. Darrouzès, pages 336-345
26. Prosopography of the Byzantine World, http://www.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/pbw/apps/,
see Demetrios 152.
Don Stone
Thanks for all this useful information. Some comments below.
-- Don Stone
OK. I'm now persuaded that Demetrios was a brother of George Tornikes,
Sr., metropolitan of Ephesus.
> [snip]
>
> Demetrios Tornikes almost certainly had one daughter who was almost
> certainly the wife of Emperor Isaac II Angelos.
>
> 1. “Eirene” Tornikaina
> She married Isaac Angelos who became Emperor Isaac II Angelos (6, 7).
> The evidence that she was a Tornikaina is as follows:
> A. Konstantinos Tornikes was the uncle of Emperor Alexius IV (8).
>
> B. Konstantinos Tornikes was married to a Comnène. There is no
> evidence that he had another wife other than Comnène. Niketas
> Choniates mentioned only the marriages of two of Emperor Isaac II's
> sisters, Theodora Angelina and Eirene Angelina. The marriages of
> Theodora Angelina and Eirene Angelina appear in other sources as
> well. Niketas Choniates mentions Konstantinos Tornikes as préfet. It
> would seem like Niketas Choniates would have mentioned the marriage of
> one of Emp. Isaac II's sisters to Konstantinos Tornikes if it had
> taken place.
>
> C. Konstantinos’ wife Comnène was at least a great great granddaughter
> of Emperor Alexius I and Emperor Isaac II Angelos was the great
> grandson of Emperor Alexius I. They were at least second cousins once
> removed, having at least fifth degree of consanguinity. The rules of
> consanguinity prohibited marriages within the seventh degree during
> that time period. It is unlikely Emperor Isaac II’s wife was a
> Comnène for this reason.
>
This consanguinity issue is a possible factor, but there were
exceptions. For example, Eirene, illeg. dau. of Emp. Andronikos I
Komnenos, married her second cousin Alexios, illeg. son of Emp. Manuel I
Komnenos.
-- Don
Chuck Owens
> Komnenos, married her second cousin Alexios, illeg. son of Emp. Manuel I
> Komnenos.
I agree. I think there's still a chance that Eirene(?) could have
been a Comnène if there was an exception made as in the example you
mention above.
Chuck