Part III: More of Haddon and Northmoor, appendixes (possible links bt Mores and William Brace and Wythe

[Brad Dubbs]

Part III: More of Haddon and Northmoor, appendixes


—Appendix 1: Records that may indicate other More family lines and discussion:

Note: The records in this appendix show other possible More of Haddon and Northmoor family members. I am trying to find two John More’s in successive generations. In the Droitwich, Worcester church memorial for John Wythe (which displays the More of Haddon arms) and related records, two men named John More appear in successive generations. Though I was not able to find these two John More’s in the More of Haddon and Northmoor records I reviewed, there is in record #2 below, in a quitclaim, two John More’s as father and son but how they might hypothetically connect with the John More’s mentioned in the Wythe memorial and related Worcester records, I am not able to say.



—Record #1, Standlake documents. In 1424, a mention is made of a certain Thomas More, rector of the church of More. The record is as follows: (September 1, 1424): “Surrender by Thomas Playsted and Margaret his wife, widow of Thomas atte More, son of Thomas atte More,” [both deceased] to [feoffees including a certain] “Thomas More, rector of the church of More [Northmoor]” of the wood in Standlake called Boyswood, which had been granted by feoffees [John Fitz Ralf and the usual Corbet feoffees] to the said Thomas atte More son of Thomas atte More and Margaret and their heirs male by the deed dated in 1391 (MCM Standlake 22A and 7C).

This Thomas More, rector of Northmoor’s identity is uncertain. The VCH Oxford Northmoor church entry (citing the bishop of Lincoln’s registers) says that a certain Thomas Moore, was ejected from the church of More [Northmoor] in 1418. If he is the same Thomas More, rector above in 1424 perhaps he was ejected in 1418 and then reinstated? Though impossible to say because their are no certain dates, there is a slight chance this Thomas (or an earlier Thomas) is in the TNA records, where there is a case of “Robert Burton, chaplain versus Richard, prior of St. Fredewide, Oxford, proctor for Thomas More, the younger: excommunicating petitioner and citing him to appear at the court of Rome for alleged detention of evidences of More church (dated 1386-1486).” For this see: C1/4/164. Perhaps the above Thomas More III d. before 1424) had two sons: Robert the oldest (who inherited) and Thomas who became a rector. Is the above Thomas More, rector of Northmoor, a possible father for the two John More’s below?


—Record # 2) In this quitclaim record of c. 1432, a certain Thomas More of Leckhampstead, Berks., is said to be a “brother and heir” of John More, son of John More. The record is as follows: (10 Hen. VI or c. 1432) Thomas More of Leckhampstead, Co. Berks, brother and heir of John son and heir of John More of Lyford [Berks.] to John Golafre, esquire and others : Quitclaim of land in Northmoor (More) by Standlake. Oxon (TNA E 210/5252).

Though both brothers John More and Thomas More (sons of John More) above are living in nearby Berkshire, they might somehow be connected to the main More family of Oxford line. But why? Well, firstly, the concern is for land in Northmoor, Oxfordshire, which is still a main More family line of Oxford holding. Secondly, the John Golafre (d. 1444), esquire in the quitclaim above acting as a feoffee, also appears in the years 1405, 1415, and 1432, in Standlake records concerning the main branch of the More family of Oxford.

Is the Thomas More of Leckhampstead in this 1432 quitclaim record the same person as the Thomas More, rector of Northmoor in 1424? Lyford is mentioned in the 1432 quitclaim and so the following record with Thomas More, tenant of Lyford in c. 1428 might be related.: "Margareta uxor Johannis Coudray, Thomas More et Thomas Lyforde tenent
terras et tenementa in Lyforde…” See: https://books.google.com/books?id=kOErAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq. I note that that the John Chalers above in part II lived at his wife’s manor of Lyford. Chaler’s daughter Alice married John More I (above part II).

To place the two John More’s of the quitclaim in the main More family is difficult. Knowing whether the older John More in the quitclaim is still alive or just passed and whether the younger John More is of age would be useful in any attempt to identify their place in the main More of Haddon line (and also would be useful to see if the quitclaim John More’s line up somehow with the two John More’s involved in a Droitwich salt vat grant. If wives were mentioned in the 1432 quitclaim it would help greatly but there are none.


Perhaps the two John More’s in the quitclaim indicate there is a cadet line of More’s in Berkshire and perhaps someone in the future with more information and with a better grasp at chronology can take it further. It certainly wouldn’t be surprising if a cadet line of the family were established in Berkshire in the 1420-30s. Thomas More III had married Margaret, likely a daughter of Robert Corbet, who had Berkshire connections and major landholdings (and whose son Robert was sheriff of Berkshire 1406-11). Later John More of the main More Family line married a daughter of John Chalers, who lived at Lyford and also had many Berkshire connections (MP Berkshire 1447). See http://www.sanhs.org/Documents/YATTON%20ARMORIAL%20GLASS.pdf).



Now to the John More, son of John More, who had a daughter Isabel who married John Wythe as described in the VCH, Droitwich, Church of St Peter in Droitwich. There, the VCH describes the church monument that apparently has the coat of arms of the More family of Haddon and Northmoor Oxford. The VCH description of the monument is:

“Monument [stone slab] to John Wythe and his wife Isabel…only the date of the latter’s death is now legible [Isabel d. 1545]. The remaining inscription: ‘He was buried here ye … | Nove[m]br in the yere … | & Isabell wyfe to ye sayd Iõ wythe & dowgr & heyr to the | soone & heyre of Iohn moore | & Rose his wyfe wch Rose was Daughtr & heyr to willā Brace | The sayd Isabel Was Buried ye 30 day of Mach (sic) Anno Domini 1545.’

Below the inscription is a shield, quarterly: (1) and (4) Wythe, (2) Moore, (3) Brace. On either side of the shield is inscribed ‘ ohn wythe | elldest sonne | to the sayde | Iohn Wythe | and Isabell | his wyfe.' "


The ‘Moore’ arms (as mentioned in the monument) appear in the Vis. of Worcester Withe [Wythe] pedigree as: argent a fess dancette paly of six sable and gules between three mullets of the second. The More arms in the Wythe monument above is similar to, as Wood saw them in 1659, the arms of More in Northmoor church, Oxford but with some tincture changes (see footnote 4.14 above: “Argent, a fess dancetty gobony gules and sable, between three mullets sable. More”).


The following Shropshire archives catalogue entry for a grant seems to repeat some of the names described above in the Wythe church monument:


"Grant: [1] Richard Wyeth and John Ferning of Wych [to 2] John Moore, son of John Moore of the Moore, and Rose his wife daughter of William Brace of Wych.

[1] Grants a bullary of one lead Yat [vat] of salt water all its appurtenances in Wych, which was recently held in gift and feoffment by the aforesaid William, to [2] John Moore and Rose and their ligitimste heirs; the customs and services due having been made at the Exchequer of Wych. If it happened there are no heirs, then the aforesaid salt vat with its appurtenances to William Brace and his heirs for ever, after the decease of John and Rose Moore, to be held of the exchequer of Wych.

Witnessed John Wyeth, Thomas Walker, Roger Wynter, John Hethe, John Gaye, William Banard and others

Dorse: "A dede of intail of one vat from Richard Wyeth and John Fernymge to John Moore and Rose his wife, the daughter of William Brace"

N.B. The exchequer in Droitwich was where licences for salt working were paid
Date: 30th June 1457 (35 Henry VI)”

Shropshire archives, no. 2705/26. See for this:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8d63c78d-f555-4bf6-a37f-9212c1b5e747.


This catalogue entry for this 1457 salt vat grant is a bit confusing to me. The heading of the grant says that the younger John More, son of John More and Rose, is being granted the vat but the dorse and body of the grant seem to say the grant of the vat is going to older John More and Rose. Possibly I am just misreading it.


At any rate, found in the top part of the 1569 Worcester Visitation Wythe pedigree is a John More married to Rose and their son John (marrying a Joan, daughter to Gardner).

The above records were of no help in identifying how the William Brace of the salt vat grant fits into the main Brace line and did not help place the two John More’s in the salt vat grant with the main More of Haddon line or even into a potential cadet More line. The More wives named Rose (da. of William Brace) and Joan (da. of Gardner) in the Wythe pedigree are not present in the catalogs of the More family documents or other sources that I reviewed. The only Joan More I found in Oxford at a reasonable time period was the February 10, 1503 death of “Joan More, widow of Oxford” (found in the Calendar of Fine Rolls, Henry VII, 1485-1509, volume 22, London, 1962, p. 334).

One hypothetical placement would have the oldest John More in the salt vat grant as a son of Thomas More III the main More of Haddon line. But Thomas More III seems too old for this to hypothetical to work. Without more clues as to the older John More’s age, even hypotheticals are difficult. Additional records might help identify the two John More’s in the 1457 salt vat grant and the two John More’s in the 1432 quitclaim. The records I reviewed are probably Limited compared to what may be available. For the most part, the Standlake records I primarily relied on cover only the Boyswood woodland (attached to the Standlake manor) passing from Thomas More III to Robert More to John More in the main branch of the More family. Perhaps evidence of a cadet line of the More family can be found somewhere in catalogues of other Oxford manors in not just the extensive Magdelene catalogue by Macray but also in the catalogues for the archives of the other Oxford colleges. [Note: Darwal-Smith’s article in Archivaria 74 (Fall 2012): p. 93–118) discusses the catalogues for the many Oxford college archives and notes, for example, that Macray’s catalogue for Magdelene college was likely limited to title deeds so he left apparently left other documents uncatalogued. Though I did not find one, a searchable online version of the documents abstracted in these many Oxford catalogues would’ve been invaluable.]

While there are at least some More family records in the 1400’s for both the main and possibly cadet More family lines, there appears to be only one record for a certain William Brace, who is a father of Rose in the 1457 Droitwich salt vat grant. This makes placing this certain William Brace, somewhere in the main Brace/Bracey line, such as that line in the Worcester visitation (p. 24) next to impossible (part of the problem is the Vis. of Worcester Brace pedigree is not clear). Note however, that there may be one additional potential record for this William Brace in the 1457 salt vat grant. A certain William Bracz appears in 1453/4 in the register for the Gild of the Holy Cross of Stratford upon Avon (located about 20 miles from Droitwich) paying a fine which were paid when members were received into the brotherhood of the guild (many from counties outside of Warwickshire), and in this case, a certain William Bracz, is paying the fine with money and salt:

"(32 Henry VI. [1453-54]. Monday after the Feast of the Ascension); ”William Bracz, of Wychc.10s. & 3 quarters of salt. Surety, the Master.” See the Register, (1406-1535), Gild of the Holy Cross, the Blessed Mary, and St. John the Baptist, Phillimore (1907) and link at https://books.google.com/books?id=V1S6VhOQuEEC&pg=PA120&lpg.

It is hard to say whether this William is younger and just entering the guild, or if he is older and paying the fine shortly before his death as some did. So a Willliam Brace appears in the Holy Cross guild register but is there a link between the men of the main Brace line and the Holy Cross guild? Possibly. John Brace MP for Worcester of the main line, had links to men in the earl of Warwick’s affinity (see http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/brace-john-1431) and Carpenter states that: ”The Stratford Guild, situated as it was in the part of the county where most of Beauchamp’s lands lay, had many of the Earls followers amongst its gentry members…” Christine Carpenter, English Historical Review, vol. 95, no. 376 (July 1980), pages 514-532, Oxford University Press, p 523.

Another aspect of the 1457 salt vat grant that might help to place Rose More’s father William Brace: the grant has witness names (Walker, Wynter, Hethe, Gaye, Banard) and as expected, the names seem to firmly plant the persons in the Droitwich area where the main Brace/Bracy line was based. In “A Survey of Worcestershire,” Parts 2-3, p. 471, by Thomas Abingdon, the salt vat grant witnesses all seem to be mentioned as owners of the Droitwich salt vats. Also appearing as salt vat owners are John Brace and names like Froxmere and Unet who appear in the 1569 Vis. of Worcs. main Brace line pedigree) as does a certain William Wyche and John Wythe (who appear in the Wythe pedigree). [Note the likely mistake on this page: its states the owners of [salt] vats as of “four Edward the I” but is likely meant to be “four Edward the IV.” See note in Gentlemen’s Mag. p/ 66-68, which says Edward IV is more likely: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/allington-william-1446]

Putting dates to some of the men with these names and with the names that appear in the main Brace pedigrees might help further place them but the main Brace pedigree confused me and I eventually, years ago, abandoned trying to place them. Besides someone in the future attempting to find other relevant records contemporary with these men there are other potential tools, such as a study on Warwickshire society by Carpenter that help put timeframes on some of the family names of these men in the Vis. of Worcester pedigree. For example some of the persons mentioned in the Carpenter study include names like Froxmere and Stafford of Grafton (who appear in the Brace 1569 Worcs.Visitation pedigree, p. 24) and Fillongley (who also appears above a Froxmere/Brace marriage in the Cockett pedigree, p. 39). In addition, Carpenter mentions John Greville (who as I noted above married a Corbet daughter). Carpenter also has a good appendix that puts dates on when the men are first mentioned, etc., and groups these men into generations (I list a few at the end below). See Carpenter, “Locality and Polity: A Study of Warwickshire Landed Society, 1401-1499.”

In attempting to place the Brace and Wythe and More persons in the Wythe 1569 Worcester Visitation pedigree, I also looked at some of the other names that appear there. The pedigree names a certain Joan Gardner as wife of the younger John More and also names John’s uncle as a certain Roger More. Though I had no success in identifying Roger, I couldn’t help but wonder whether he is somehow related to the Roger More of Bicester (d. 1551) noted above (in the John More II generation and footnotes 10.4 and 10.5). I likewise had no success in identifying the Joan Gardner wife of John More in the Wythe pedigree but a total stab in the dark conjecture is that Joan Gardner, mother of Isabell Wythe might be placed as a possible sister of Richard Gardner (Mayor of London 1478, d. 1489) by John Gardner and his wife Isabell (of Exning Suffolk near Cambridgeshire). The chronology probably doesn’t match and the links are remote, but my urge to even begin a conjecture came about when I noticed that a John More, probably of the main More family line, was involved with the Alingtons and one of the Alingtons later married Richard Gardner’s daughter Mary (see their Cambs. pedigree on p. 14 and 15 showing arms of Argentine and Gardner at: https://archive.org/stream/visitationcambr00britgoog#page/n28/mode/2up).

The potential links between John More and the Alington’s and mayor Richard Gardner are summarized as follows: Between 1455 and 1459, a certain John More appears in several Oxfordshire Chalgrove manor grants of Allington and/or Argentine holdings, acting as a feoffee along with Walter Mauntell and Edmund Rede. Is the John More here the same person as John More of Haddon (d. 1493) or someone related? There is a chance. The John More who d. 1493 held the Cambs. manor of Whaddon and the grants also included Alington’s Horseheath, Cambs. manors. In addition, the Walter Mauntell and Edmund Rede in the Allington Chalgrove documents later appear in John More I of Haddon’s IPMs. Mayor Richard Gardner may have been in the More/Allington affinity before he died in 1489 but the link is his daughter Mary later marrying Giles Allington in c. 1505. Though the conjecture is weak, I did notice also that the London sheriff in the same year Richard Gardner was mayor, was a certain John Stokker (for Stokker in 1458 as a draper, see Beaven, “The Aldermen of the City of London,” vol. 1, p. 168 at: https://books.google.com/booksid=KotHvZvvcOAC&pg=PA35&dq). This John Stokker also appears in the 1460 Standlake documents as “clothier, citizen of London”along with John More, as co-feoffees (see MCM Standlake 6B and see also Stokker and Corbet, who appear in a 1464 fine where it is said that John More holds the wood in Standlake: CP 25/1/191/29, no. 3 at: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_191_29.shtml.

Note also another strange occurrence: in a Corbet grant, dated June 15, 1464, witnessed by John More, esquire, Sir John Fray, and John Stokker are said to be former feoffees of Corbet land (but now dead) (MCM Standlake 15A). An interesting connection here is that, John Fray’s daughter married Humphrey Stafford (d. 1486) and there is, according to the Vis. of Worcester (p. 24), a link between the Stafford of Grafton and the main Brace line at Doverdale, Worcester near Droitwich. For more on the Chalgrove and Horseheath, Cambs. manors (said in the documents to be “Argentine’s lands) noted above see: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/argentine-sir-william-1350-1419. Also: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/allington-william-1446.

Another candidate for the link to Joan Gardner, wife of John More in the Wythe Vis. of Worcs. pedigree, is a certain William Gardyner, owner of a Droitwich salt vat (see Habington above).




—Appendix II: I list here some of the names from Carpenter’s work, “Locality and Polity: A Study of Warwickshire Landed Society, 1401-1499.” Her work could help place names that appear in the Vis. of Worcs. Brace pedigree (or in the same visitation Cockett pedigree above a Froxmere/Brace marriage) into more certain timeframes. See her appendix 1: “Directory of Warwickshire gentry, 1400-1500.”

I also list below Carpenter's dates for John Greville’s activities (he married into the Corbet family about the same time as Thomas More III of Haddon above):

"Introduction:…. The first date usually indicates entry on local affairs, the participant being probably somewhere between about 14 and 25 years old, although in some instances, notably where there are surviving inquisitions postmortem's and warships, people turn up in the records at a much earlier age. The appellations, I or II, are those used in the [Locality and Polity book] text. Under residence, the names of other counties are given where it is necessary….”

Name, first reference, last reference or death, residence.”


—Page 654-655.

Henry Fillongley I,*activity before 1400, 1410, Middlesex, Fillingley.

Henry Fillongley II, 1427, working 60, Middlesex, Fillongley

John Fillongley, 1413, 1436, Fillongley



Thomas Froxmere, 1473, 1498, Fillongley

Henry Froxmere, 1476, 1476, same




—Page 667

Humphrey Stafford, senior,*, 1401, and Grafton, Worcs. and Leamington Hastings.

Humphrey Stafford, Junior, 1401, 1419, same.

Humphrey Stafford I, 1412, 1450, same.

Humphrey Stafford II, 1450, 1486, same.

Humphrey Stafford III, 1486,*, eventually recovered part of inheritance.




Page 683

Noble and gentry members of noble affinities in Warwickshire:

-Joan Beauchamp

Henry Fillongley, activity 1431-55, associate, legatee, officer.

Humphrey Stafford I, circa 1446/7; and Humphrey Stafford II, 1451-69.

Richard Clodsdale, 1417-18, officer

John Grevelle I, 1420-21, in household of Countess.





Page 697

Neville of Warwick

John Grevelle II, 1452-1460, life annuitant

Humphrey Stafford II, 1450-53, personal connections

Stafford of Stafford and Buckingham

John Gravelle I, 1433-34, officer

John Greville II 1472 to 74, officer




—Appendix III: Brief summary pedigree of St. Thomas More which includes Edward More of Haddon, Bampton, Oxfordshire:

The below pedigree is from the “Essex Recusant," vol. 1 (1959), p. 62-74, editor, D. Shanahan (with correction by same author in Essex Recusant, vol. 2, no. 1, (1960), p. 44,45. Note: the first three generations are also described near contemporarily in “The Life of Syr Thomas More” by ?Roper.


1. St Thomas More (1478-1535) = Joan Colt (-1511)
2. John (1510-1547) = Ann Cresacre (1511-1577)
3. Thomas More II (1531-1606) = Maria Scrope (1534-1607)
4. Mary(1553-) = Edward More of Bampton (-1605).

Note: in his 1960 correction, Shanahan says that in his will, Thomas More II left a legacy to “Mary More widow of the late Edward More, son of Thomas More of Haddon, Bampton Co. Oxford” Edward's will was proved June 15, 1605 (cited as Com. Court of London Recs, Guildhall Lib. A.B. f.8). Shanahan also noted are that Thomas V below claimed, when he arrived in 1601 at the English College in Rome, that he was born in Cambs. (it is noted that Edward More’s sister married Ferdinand Paris of Cambs.). See “ oore" in Vis. of Oxford (only later generations).

Mary and Edward had the following children
—5. Thomas V, SJ (1586-1623)

—5. Henry, SJ (1587-1661) see ONDB article or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_More_(Jesuit) and: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Henry_More.

—5. Grace, OSB (1591-1656) see: https://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/counties/details.php?uid=CB136 (her mother correctly is said to be Mary).

—5. Anne, OSB (1600-1662) see: https://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/counties/details.php?uid=CB134 (her mother is incorrectly said to be Ann).

—5 Joan (-1634) see https://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/counties/details.php?uid=BB126 (her mother is incorrectly said to be Ann).

—5 Frances=Henry Lusher

This study seems to be fairly accurate: https://www.thomasmorestudies.org/docs/Descendants_John.pdf.



—Appendix IV: Brace, Wythe and a certain Philip Havard:

I note here something I found years ago regarding a certain Philip Havard. This man appears in both a document involving the main Brace line and later in a document involving a Richard Wythe and family.

—Philip Havard appears in a document involving the main Brace line:

C 1/120/54
Description:
Short title: Bromwych v Brase.
Plaintiffs: William Bromwych and Roland Ewnet, cousins and heirs of Margaret Bromwych and Elizabeth Ewnet.
Defendants: Isabel Brase, widow, Philip Havard, and William Brase.
Subject: Detention of deeds relating to a moiety of the manor and to the advowson of Doverdale, and to the fourth part of the manor of Rudmarley Adam. Worcestershire
Note: Mutilated.
Date: 1486-1493, or 1504-1515

See: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7455878.


—Possibly the same Philip Havard also appears in a document involving a Richard Wythe and family.


C 1/456/1
Description:
Short title: Withe v Havard.
Plaintiffs: Thomas Withe (Wyeth), son of Richard, grandson and heir of Richard Wythe and of Edith, his wife.
Defendants: Philip Havard.
Subject: Two salt-vats in Droitwich mortgaged by the said Richard the younger to Edmund Wyberd, deceased, whose assignee defendant is.
Worcestershire.
2 documents
Date: 1515-1518

See: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7471373.

Here there is only a possible hint of some link which may or may not be worth pursuing. If the above Richard Wythe is related to the John Wythe in the 1569 Vis of Worcs. pedigree (they both owned salt vats in Droitwich), then Philip Havard might give us a connection (although it is a distant and admittedly unknown link) between the William Brace found in the Wythe pedigree (ancestor of John Wythe) and the two John Mores of the salt vat grants and main Brace line.

[John Paul Bradford]

Dear Brad,
We descend from a Bartholomew Peisley who originated in Ashcott, Oxfordshire but was granted land in Punchestown, Co. Kildare c.1600. His wife is listed in the Funeral Entries Volume 17 of the Herald's Office as "Katherine, daughter of .... De la More of More and of Hatton in comm Oxford." There is an impaled coat of arms next to the entry. The left (to us) is the Peisley arms. The right (to us) is the More arms. All it shows is a lion rampant, looking right at the viewer. Nothing else. Background gules and lion argent. Her husband is mentioned in the 1609 will of William More of Haddon as a cousin. Any idea how either of these people might fit in?
God bless
John Paul Bradford

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[Stewart Baldwin]

On Friday, January 29, 2021 at 10:20:47 PM UTC-6, John Paul Bradford wrote:
> On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 8:31:48 PM UTC-4, Brad Dubbs wrote:
> > Part III: More of Haddon and Northmoor, appendixes

...

> We descend from a Bartholomew Peisley who originated in Ashcott, Oxfordshire but was granted land in Punchestown, Co. Kildare c.1600. His wife is listed in the Funeral Entries Volume 17 of the Herald's Office as "Katherine, daughter of .... De la More of More and of Hatton in comm Oxford." There is an impaled coat of arms next to the entry. The left (to us) is the Peisley arms. The right (to us) is the More arms. All it shows is a lion rampant, looking right at the viewer. Nothing else. Background gules and lion argent. Her husband is mentioned in the 1609 will of William More of Haddon as a cousin. Any idea how either of these people might fit in?

William had a sister named Katherine (mentioned in the 1561 PCC will of their father Thomas More of Haddon), but the wording of William's will does not suggest the woman you want was William's sister. A better candidate might be the Katherine More who was mentioned as a daughter of Franncys More of Northmore, co. Oxford, gent., in his 1592 PCC will, which also mentions his "cosen" William More of Haddon. I don't know enough about the chronology of your Bartholomew Peisley to determine whether this Katherine More is a reasonable candidate for the woman you are seeking. The above Francis More might have been a brother of William's father Thomas (who did have a younger brother named Francis), or he might have been in the next generation.

Stewart Baldwin

[John Paul Bradford]

Dear Stewart,
I think you are onto something. I've been poking around trying to get some dates on Bartholomew Peisley and Katherine de la More, besides Bartholomew's death in Ireland in 1638. Turns out familysearch had the answer to most of their children's births with a series of baptisms ranging from 1605 to 1619 at St. Mary the Virgin in Bampton. The couple appears to have had several children before 1605 and I'm guessing they married c.1600. From Francis More's 1593 will it appears that his eldest son was still a minor in that year. If I presume his sister Katherine is of similar age to him (perhaps a little younger) then a marriage for her in 1600 is quite plausible. Records show Bartholomew Peisley dealing several times with a John More in Lower Haddon and it turns out that Kathleen has a brother of that name. John would be a first cousin of William More (d.1608) and a John More is identified as a cousin in that man's will. So it all fits together nicely. To go further back would require that Francis More (d.1593) be a younger brother of Thomas More (d.1561) but I don't think that is a problem as Francis could have been quite a bit younger or married later in life to produce his children. One of Bartholomew Peisley and Katherine de la More's children is named Francis. Could be after her father but as they had eighteen children they could just have been desperate to find another male name! This is certainly a serious contender for the origin of Katherine de la More and through her, a link deep into the medieval past for her descendants. Thank you so much for pointing this will out.
Dominvs tecvm
John Paul Bradford

[Brad Dubbs]

Peisley




I was traveling and then ‘stuck’ in Thailand during the pandemic and have been away from home and my More of Haddon papers for almost a year. I don’t remember having much on the Mores after 1550. I remember using the Victoria County history for Oxfordshire as a pointer to original records but I am not able to see much on the Peisleys.


Peisley and family show up a few times in the Victoria County history (VCH) for Oxfordshire now online. Using the search function I was able to see only very brief mention in various Oxford manors such as Lower Haddon and Bampton.

A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 13, Bampton Hundred (Part One).

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol13/pp87-88#fnn8

In 1608 John conveyed a moiety to his relative Bartholomew Peisley, who had already acquired an interest and was then living at Haddon, but the following year the moiety was sold back. (fn. 8)



https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol13/pp22-30

...16th century the estate was held by local gentry, notably the Mores of Lower Haddon from 1538, in the early 17th century the Peisleys, from c. 1624 the Dewes, and from 1778 to c. 1813 the Hawkinses, (fn. 80)

In the late 16th or early 17th century, perhaps after the lease passed from the the non-resident Mores to Bartholomew Peisley and the Dewe family, (fn. 115)

FN #115 Above. Peisley, formerly of Aston and Haddon, lived in Bampton by 1616: Jesus Coll. Mun., box 15, list 1 (bdle. 1), no. 16.

He also shows up in a few other sections...

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol13/pp17-21#fnn29


The national archives online shows just a few records some of which are probably mentioned in VCH above:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=Bartholomew+Peisley&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv&_p=1600&_p=1500