"Aupais"
seej...@home.com
On a recent posting to the newsletter, the descendancy of Charlemagne
and Himiltrude included a daughter, Alpais, who married Begue de Paris
(-816).
I have Alpais, who married Begue de Paris, as the daughter of Louis I of
France (SON OF CHARLEMAGNE) and Ermengarde Hesbaye.
Can anyone help sort this out?
Carol, aka seej...@home.com
Mardi Carter
Moriarity p 23 calls her a Carolingian, but does not name a father.
Brandenburg calls her dau. of Louis I, King of France.
Weis (AR 1982 ed) calls her natural dau. of Charlemagne citing Chaume
and
Moriarity.
Chaume (I only have a sketchy chart) does not name her father.
I haven't found her in ES yet.
Richard Borthwick
At 11:06 AM 28/05/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On a recent posting to the newsletter, the descendancy of Charlemagne
>and Himiltrude included a daughter, Alpais, who married Begue de Paris
>(-816).
>
>I have Alpais, who married Begue de Paris, as the daughter of Louis I of
>France (SON OF CHARLEMAGNE) and Ermengarde Hesbaye.
>
>Can anyone help sort this out?
>
>Carol, aka seej...@home.com
>
>
one interprets the following passage from the Minor Lorsch Annals (Codex
Fuldensis) for 816 (MGH SS 1): "Picco, primis de amicis regis, qui et filiam
imperatoris [*] duxit [duxerat] uxorem, defunctus est." The Hildesheim
Annals repeat this but insert at [*] the words "nomine Elpheid". A fairly
literal translation is: "Bego/Biggo, first amongst the king's friends, who
[had] also married the emperor's daughter [by name Elpheid], died." The
question is whether '...imperatoris ...' refers to the 816 emperor (i.e. the
current one, Louis the Pious) or to the previous one (Charlemagne).
Flodoard in his history of the church of Reims says that Alpais was the
daughter of Louis. But Flodoard (writing very much later, in the C10th)
would appear to be using the Lorsch/Hildesheim annals, makes the reference
of '...imperatoris ...' to be Louis the Pious who was indeed emperor in 816.
This does not settle the matter since Flodoard (who is usually very
reliable) may have made a not unreasonable but nevertheless wrong
identification. Count Bego (before his brief time as count of Paris) had a
career in southern France during Louis the Pious' time as king of Aquitaine.
Since Bego married while Charlemagne reigned (but probably before he became
emperor in 800) the reference of '...regis...' in the Lorsch Annals quoted
above is thus to Louis as king of Aquitaine and '...imperatoris...' is to
Charelemagne. Whether Alpais is the daughter of Charlemagne or of his son
thus turns on how one citically interprets Flodoard.
There are also other factors. The Louis-as-father thesis has Alpais marrying
a man much older than herself. Bego (if the reference is to the same man)
would appear to have been a widower when he married Alpais. His first wife
was Williburga for the benefit of whose soul he transfers part of a vinyard
on 14 July 789 to the Lorsch held church of St Nazaire [Lorsch Codex ed. by
Gloeckner, II p.80 No.349]. If he then married a daughter of Charlemagne,
Alpais (b. between 765/70) in about 795, this eases the chronological crush
had she been a daughter of Louis. The difficulty with this (though it is not
an impossibility) is that Alpais (who was known to have died in 852) would
have been very old (over 82). But then Charlemage himself was a long-liver!
The Louis-as-father thesis would reduce her age. On balance the
Charlemagne-as-father thesis looks more probable since her sons, Leuthard
and Eberhard would have been old enough to succeed their father in 816
(which they apparently did).
If Alpais was a dau. of Louis then she was most probably dau. by a
mistress/concubine before his first marriage. If she was the dau. of
Charlemagne the claim is that she was dau. by his first marriage to
Himiltrude. On this I am so sure. I don't see why she could not have been
his dau. by a mistress/concubine. Settipani (1993) has Alpais as the dau. of
Charlemagne by Himiltrude.
I hope this is of some help.
A question of my own. Does anyone know when the second part of Settipani's
*La prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987* is to be published?
Richard
Richard Borthwick
At 01:23 PM 28/05/98 +0000, you wrote:
>seej...@home.com wrote:
>>
>> On a recent posting to the newsletter, the descendancy of Charlemagne
>> and Himiltrude included a daughter, Alpais, who married Begue de Paris
>> (-816).
>>
>> I have Alpais, who married Begue de Paris, as the daughter of Louis I of
>> France (SON OF CHARLEMAGNE) and Ermengarde Hesbaye.
>>
>> Can anyone help sort this out?
>>
>> Carol, aka seej...@home.com
>
>Brandenburg calls her dau. of Louis I, King of France.
>Weis (AR 1982 ed) calls her natural dau. of Charlemagne citing Chaume
>and
> Moriarity.
>Chaume (I only have a sketchy chart) does not name her father.
>I haven't found her in ES yet.
>
>
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 5/29/98 1:24:22 AM, you wrote:
<<I don't see why she could not have been his dau. by a mistress/concubine.
Settipani (1993) has Alpais as the dau. of Charlemagne by Himiltrude. >>
Could she not, as Charlemagne's daughter, have been named after Charlemagne's
g-grandmother, Alpaida, the mistress with whom Charles Martel was the bastard
son. Plectrudus tried to poison Charles to keep him from the throne.
Incidently, there is debate over whether or not Himiltrude was actually a
mistress or a full-fledged wife. There is more to this than meets the eye, as
marriage institutions were not the same at this time. I am publishing
something on this in the October 1998 issue of THE PLANTAGENET CONENCTION. A
tidbit: "Janet Nelson regards Charlemagne's relationship with Himiltrude as a
formal marriage; the assertion that she was only a concubine appears to
originate with Einhard, who downplayed the relationship to validate
Charlemagne's union with Hildegarde, which produced Louis the Pious. See
Nelson's article in my _Medieval Queenship_ (New York: St Martin's, 1993).
Some historians question whether her son Pepin was really a hunchback; this
too may have been invented, to render him unthroneworthy after the fact. -John
Parsons"
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
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Todd A. Farmerie
KHF...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/29/98 1:24:22 AM, you wrote:
>
> <<I don't see why she could not have been his dau. by a mistress/concubine.
> Settipani (1993) has Alpais as the dau. of Charlemagne by Himiltrude. >>
>
> Could she not, as Charlemagne's daughter, have been named after Charlemagne's
> g-grandmother, Alpaida, the mistress with whom Charles Martel was the bastard
> son. Plectrudus tried to poison Charles to keep him from the throne.
She could have been given this name whenther she was CHarlemagne's or
Louis'. This onomastic connection has been pointed out by Constance
Bouchard in her analysis of the names given the Carolingian women. She
places special emphasis on the use of the name of an earlier
conculbine/ancestress for an illegitimate daughter.
taf
TALBOT1998
Dans l'article <356DA840...@home.com>, seej...@home.com écrit :
>On a recent posting to the newsletter, the descendancy of Charlemagne
>and Himiltrude included a daughter, Alpais, who married Begue de Paris
>(-816).
>
>I have Alpais, who married Begue de Paris, as the daughter of Louis I of
>France (SON OF CHARLEMAGNE) and Ermengarde Hesbaye.
>
>Can anyone help sort this out?
>
Bonjour,
I have :
Louis I le Pieux (778-840)
x ( 1st wife ? )
- Alpaïs x Bégon comte de Paris
- Eberhard
- Leuthard
- Arnulf (abt. 794 - ?) comte de Sens
x 798 Ermengarde (+818)
- 3 sons
- 3 daughters
x 819 Judith (+943)
- 1 son (Charles II le Chauve)
Alain TALBOT
TALBO...@aol.com