Mowbray ancestry of Camoys and Hansard: a conjecture

[John P. Ravilious]

Hello All,

An interesting fine from Nov 1233 was noted, courtesy of the
Henry
III Fine Rolls Project:

' 10 Nov. Hereford.
.....
29

For John Haunsard'. John Haunsard' and Matilda, his wife, and
Mabel of Torpel1, have made fine with the king by £20 for
having seisin of the land formerly of Robert de Mowbray, uncle
of Matilda and Mabel, in Melton, which falls to them by
inheritance . Order to P. de Rivallis that, having accepted
security etc., he is to cause John, Matilda and Mabel to have
full seisin of all of the aforesaid land with appurtenances,
of which Robert was seised on the day he died.

Footnotes
1. Mabel interlined. ' [1]

I have not seen this marriage of John Hansard previously
recorded,
or for that matter any prior reference to the parentage of Mabel,
wife of Roger de Torpel (d. 1225). The identification of Robert de
Mowbray and his relationship to his contemporary William de Mowbray
(d. bef Apr 1224) is unclear at best. Nigel de Mowbray, the
crusader,
had a brother Robert who was a witness to charters of their parents,
but whose subsequent history is unknown as yet [2]. I would suggest
the following as a possibility:

[ NOTE: conjectured relationships noted thus: .........: ]

Roger de Mowbray = Alice de Gant
______________________I_________________
I I
Nigel de Mowbray Robert de Mowbray
crusader; d. 1191 (see note [2])
= Mabel :
___I______________________ ........:..........
I I I I I : :
William Philip <siblings> Robert NN
d. 1224 d. bef 10 I
= Avice Nov 1233 I
_I____________________ _____________I__
I I I I
Nele Roger Matilda Mabel
d. 1230 b. aft 2 Oct = John = Roger
Oct 1209: Hansard de Torpel
d. 1266 ___________I
I ____________I______
V I I
Ascelin Roger de
= Ralph de Torpel
Camoys
I
V

If this conjecture can be proved, it will provide an
extended ancestry for the later Lords Camoys, Jane Grey (and
King Edward VI), Princes William and Harry, and a host of
others (many list members included). Should anyone have
further thoughts, documentation, comment or criticism, that
would be welcome, as always.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] The Henry III Fine Rolls Project: C 60/33 [18 HENRY III
(28 October 1233-27 October 1234), November 1233, mem.11.
Text viewable at:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_033.html

[2] 'Roberto de Mubrai', witness to his father's gifts to
Fountains Abbey [Mon.Angl. V:309, Num. LXIX, LXX], and
that of his mother 'Aaliz de Gant' [Num. LXXII].

* John P. Ravilious

[al...@mindspring.com]

John P. Ravilious wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>
>
> An interesting fine from Nov 1233 was noted, courtesy of the
> Henry
> III Fine Rolls Project:
>
> ' 10 Nov. Hereford.
> .....
> 29
>
> For John Haunsard'. John Haunsard' and Matilda, his wife, and
> Mabel of Torpel1, have made fine with the king by £20 for
> having seisin of the land formerly of Robert de Mowbray, uncle
> of Matilda and Mabel, in Melton, which falls to them by
> inheritance . Order to P. de Rivallis that, having accepted
> security etc., he is to cause John, Matilda and Mabel to have
> full seisin of all of the aforesaid land with appurtenances,
> of which Robert was seised on the day he died.
>
> Footnotes
> 1. Mabel interlined. ' [1]

> snip

Hi John

Great post as always

Minimal additional information:

Gilbert Hansard's son John, according to the Visitation of
Lincolnshire (The Genealogist, Vol. VI., p 112), married "...da to Guy
Villers." "The History of Northumberland" states John married Matilda,
niece of Robert de Mowbray.

Doug Smith

[Doug McDonald]

John P. Ravilious wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>

Interesting! Very interesting to me, as I otherwise would have
no de Mowbray ancestry whatsoever. I am, however, a descendant
of this de Camoys.

Thanks, even it it only a conjecture.

Doug McDonald

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Doug (and Doug),

Thanks for the lookup in the Northumberland volume. I'm hoping
to find some other evidence that clearly indicates the parentage of
Matilda and Mabel. The fact that an interest in Melton [evidently
Melton Mowbray] was at issue clearly points to the family of William
de Mowbray (d. 1224).

Cheers,

John

[wjhonson]

John you posted a fine that showed that Mabel and her sister had an
uncle Robert de Mowbray. And then you posited two Robert de Mowbray's
in succession with the son dying before the 1233 Fine.

Why could not these two Robert de Mowbray's be the same person?

That is, that Nele and Robert had another sibling, male or female who
was the parents of Mabel and her sister?

Thanks
Will Johnson

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Will,

I think the chronology works against moving the relationship back
another generation. Re: which, see the next post, re: Rosie's
alternate suggestion (which has much merit).

Cheers,

John