Gay of London and Elmsted

278 views
Skip to first unread message

taf

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 3:40:41 PM9/29/21
to
[Part 1/4]

Looking into the various ancestral lines of the Epps immigrants, I found myself sorting out the Gay family, and having done the work, I might as well share.

The 1619 Kent visitation shows the marriage of Peter Maplesden of Maidstone (b. say 1507-1510) to Jane Gay, with arms gu. 3 lions ramp. arg. betw. 5 cross crosslets or. These are a reasonable approximation of two bearings in visitation Gay pedigrees.

1574 Kent has Gay of Elinsted, with Quarterly 1&4 gu. crusily or, 3 lions ramp. arg.; 2&3 per pale arg. and gu., on a chevron az. 3 cross-crosslets (no tincture given).
Thomas Gay of Elinsteede = dau & heir Bewbery in co. Staffs
.....Christofer Gay of Elinsted = dau Webbe of Warharne
..........Humfrey Gay of Elinsted = dau Sir Humfrey Welles of Devon
...............Christofer Gay 1 [son]
...............Edmond Gay 2 [son]
...............Edmond Gay of Petham (signs) m.1 Bennett dau John Goldwell m.2 Mary dau John Honiwood
....................(by 1) Thomas
....................(by 2) Jerome
....................(by 2) Joseph
....................(by 2) Mary

The 1663 Kent visitation has a pedigree for Gay of Swaycliff. The arms are illustrated, not blazoned, but are gu. crusily (unclear tincture) three lions rampant arg; quartering per pale arg. & gu., on a chevron az. 3 cross crosslets or (labeled Gay & Bewbery). It gives a 4-generation pedigree with more than the direct male line only in the last generation: Thomas of Swaycliffe>Thomas of Swaycliffe>Jeremy of Canterbury (signs)>Thomas, aged 14 in 1663, Mary, Rebecca and Elizabeth.

This 1663 pedigree is of no help with the Gay-Maplesden marriage question. Ending as it does with Thomas, b. ca. 1649, its commencement three generations earlier would be with someone born say 1550-1570, too late to be of use in the early generations of the family. The earliest generation given here is apparently the Thomas of Swalecliffe who left a 1612 will naming sons Thomas, Edmund and Christopher, and a daughter Elizabeth, and likewise the Thomas named in the will of Christopher Gay of Swacliffe in his 1585 will. The children of his son Thomas would receive legacies from London merchant tailor Jeremy Gay, Edmund's son, and also from that of Jeremy's widow. Given the pattern of naming and legacies, the first Gay of Swalecliffe would seemingly be the Christopher shown in the 1574 visitation as elder brother of Edmund, taking up a new seat in Swalecliffe, his father having sold the previous family seat.

Returning to the 1574 visitation, the first necessary step is to root its pedigree with chronology. Edmond Gay married at Goodnestone to Mary Boys (i.e. Mary Honeywood, widow of Vincent Boys) in 1559, followed there by the baptisms of Marie, Jeremie, Edward and Joseph in 1560, 1561, 1564 and 1566 respectively. With the first marriage coming before, that puts his birth, seemingly, in the 1520-1530 range, give or take, unless his first marriage was longer and childless after the first son, which would push it back.

With this most-basic rough chronology established, a few additional aspects of the published pedigree bear comment. First, it seems to have lost track of a child of Edmund, drawing four circles but then only putting names in the first three and leaving the last blank. The missing child would be Edward of the baptismal record, perhaps having died. The other two issues are that, try as you might you will not find a place called Elinsted on a Kent map, and that we have a "I'm Larry, this is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl" situation here, with Humphrey being given first son Christopher, second son Edmund, and then another son (not given a numeral) named Edmund again. Certainly there are instances where a family thinks a name is so nice they use it twice, and indeed we will see such a case later in this study, but I don't think that is what is happening here, as I conclude from the following.

There is a Star Chamber case that shows up in the TNA catalog in a batch from 1553-1558, and then apparently a continuation that I find on an AALT index dated to 3 Eliz I, that is Osmund Gaye versus Edmund Gaye, over the forceible ouster and false imprisonment of Osmund's wife and servants in their house at Emlsted, Kent, by Edmund. So, Elmsted, not Elinsted, and I can't help but think that the double Edmund of the visitation should have been Osmund and Edmund. This Osmund was admitted to Gray's Inn in 1528, so probably born in the range 1505-1510 or thereabouts, became a barrister in 1532, and Ancient in 1536, Autumn Reader in 1547 and double Lent Reader 1553. In 1546 (again thanks to an AALT index) he was of "London, Holborne St Andrews, gent." The same year another suit includes defendants Humphrey Gay of Elmested, Kent, gent, and Osmund Gay of Gray's Inn, Middlesex, reaffirming the hypothesized connection. Again that year he is of Charte juxta Sutton Valance, Kent. He was married multiple times. In 38 Henry VIII (1546/7) Osmond Gay and Anne executed a Kent fine (from a listing of Kent fines at kentarchaeology.ac.uk) and she again appears, this time as his late wife, in a Chancery suit from 1556-1558 (TNA), but Osmund had already remarried, apparently twice. Osmund Gay married Cecile Tripp at Elmsted, 8 April 1550, and Osmund Gay and Margaret, his wife, late wife of John Fynche of Milton by Sittingbourne sued the guardian of John's deceased eldest son, Henry Fynche in a batch of Chancery cases from 1553-1553. I last find him in 1560, when a report decrying the poor state of the church at Preston next Faversham reported that "Osmond Gaye cometh not to his parish church almost thoughout the whole year" (Peter Sandwich, "Some East Kent Parish History" in The Home Counties Magazine, vol. 9).

[end Part 1]

taf

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 3:44:51 PM9/29/21
to
[Part 2/4]

With the basic chronology established, we make our next progress from a couple of documents from the first decade of the 1500s.

From A. W. Hughes-Clarke, Kentish Wills: Genealogical Extracts of 16th Century Wills from the Consistory Court of Canterbury:

Xtpher Gay. To be buried in chancel of St. John the Baptist on the side nest the chancel of St. James of Elmested. Thomas and Elizabeth, his father and mother. Agnes, late his wife. His master Sir John Scotte. Thomas Gaye his son Edward's son. Besse Gaye his son Humphrey's daughter. Thomas Gay his son. Joan his wife his lands in Elmsted, Kenyngton, Lymme & London. His lands in Elmsted to Humphrey his son and his heirs for ever. To Thomas his son his messuage called the Hart and his lands and tenements in Kennington in tale general. Remainder to Humphry his son in like tale. Remainder to Edward his son in like tale. Joane wife of Thomas Gaye. He wills that Humphry his son shall have to him and his heirs the manor of Hekesherst Courte lying and being within the parishes of Lymme, Newington, Adlington, Eastbridge, Herst and Bonnington, and for lack of heirs of the said Humphrey to remayne to Edward Gaye and his heirs, and for lack of heirs of the said Edward to remayne to Thomas Gaye his son and his heirs for ever. Dated 29 Sep. 1507.

[Note: Halsted's account of Elmsted names a John le Gay (undated) mentioned in the ledger of Horton priory, then talks vaguely about improvements made by the Gays (not further named) until Humphrey alienated Elmsted to John Honywood, esq, who died in 1557. He reports that the church contained a tomb showing a man with two wives, with Gay arms, with the inscription "Pray for the sowlys of Xtopher Gay, Agnes and Johan his wifes, ther chylder and all xtian sowlys Jhu have mcy", matching the will.]

Here we have the same three generations in a row, Thomas, Christopher, Humphrey, as in the 1574 pedigree, a sequence repeated in a 1525 London quitclaim, the first recorded mention of Clare's quay, predecessor of Brewers' Quay: Humphrey Gay son of Christopher Gay son of Thomas Gay and Alice his wife quitclaim to Nicholas Jenyns, skinner and others a messuage and quay called Clare's Quay (from Hustings Roll, 239 (33), described in Survey of London: Vol. 15, All Hallows, Barking-by-the-Tower, pt. II (1934).

Given the approximate birthdate assigned Edmund and Osmund, there seems no basis for not viewing this as the same descent, so Thomas and ____ Bewbury had a son Christopher who died between 1507 and 1509, when the will was proved, having three children, Humphrey (father of a younger Christopher of Swalecliffe, Osmund of Gray's Inn, and Edmund of Petham), Edward (who had daughter Besse born by 1507), and Thomas (married to Joan by 1507). Halsted already reached the conclusion that this was the same descent, but proceeded to make an absolute hash of things, stating that Humphrey, named in his father's will (with a nephew and a niece already living) in 1507 was the father of three sons, Christopher, Edmund and Thomas, identifying Christopher with the man who left a will in 1633, and Thomas in 1660, which would be over 150 years after his sibling was born – Halsted has mashed together different generations of the family.

The second informative document comes on the heals of a fine, dated 6 October 1501 (care of Chris Phillips’ site), in which Humphrey Gay and his wife Alice settle of Christopher Gay and his wife Joan all of the rents from more than 200 acres of lands in 'Elmystede, Lymme, Broke and Wye' for the lives of Christopher and Joan, with remainder to Humphrey and Alice and the heirs of Alice. There then follows a second fine on 27 October, in which Humphrey and Alice use intermediaries to adjust the reversion on a good bit of Kent land. This latter also is recorded in the Close rolls, Henry VII, vol. 2 (from british-history.ac.uk), with some added detail that proves interesting:

Indenture between John Butteler 'serjeaunt to the lawe,' John Roper esquire and William Halke on the one part and Humphrey Gay and Alice his wife on the other: whereas Humphrey and Alice are seised in his right of 4 'measeas,' 103 a. ½ rood land, 16½ a. meadow, 158 a. ½ rood pasture, 6 a. 3½ roods wood, 31 a. marsh, 8 a. 'hothlande,' 11s. 5¾d. rent and a rent of 5 hens, 27 eggs and 1 qr. barley in Elmystede, Hastynglegh, Waltham, Braburn, Stellynge, Lymme, Brok and Wy co. Kent, they shall acknowledge the premises by fine in the present Michaelmas term to be the right of John Butteler together with John Roper and William, as by their gift; John, John and William shall thereupon render and yield again the same lands in Elmystede, Lymme, Broke and Wye (saving 31 a. ½ rood land and 15 a. meadow) to Humphrey and Alice and the heirs of their bodies, with successive remainders to Alice and the heirs of her body, to Humphrey and the heirs of his body, and to Christopher Gay and Joan his wife (mother of Alice) for life and thereafter in equal moieties to Alice's brothers Thomas and Edward Gay and their heirs; as to the remaining 46 a. ½ rood, whereof 14½ a. ½ rood lie in Elmystede in the places called 'Evyngtounesdane,' 'Hardendane,' 'Lestownes,' 'Mencroft,' 'Brambilton at the Menesse' and in 2 parcels in 'Boodehamfelde' called the 'Shawehegge' and 31½ a. in Hastynglegh, Braborn, Waltham and Stellyng, John, John and William shall be seised thereof to the use of Humphrey his heirs and assigns, to the intent that he shall change them or any parcel thereof for other lands lying 'more nerer' to any of the said 4 'meses,' or else sell them to the most avail in order to purchase such lands, and the lands thus to be obtained by exchange or purchase shall be held to the same use as the first-named and with the like remainders. Dated 4 November, 17 Henry VII. English.

This is indeed curious. Clearly again referring to the same people, it calls Christopher's wife Joan the mother of Alice, wife of Humphrey Gay, and further, calls Thomas and Edward _her_ brothers. Barring a mistranslation, the best explanation is that Thomas and Edward were children by Christopher's second wife, Joan, with Humphrey being their paternal half-brother, and Humphrey's wife Alice being their maternal half-sister, the daughter of a former marriage of Joan. Who was this earlier husband? A Common Pleas suit 9 Henry VII shows Christopher acting on behalf of his son Humphrey, whose wife Alice was daughter and heir of Nicholas Smethe of Elmested making Nicholas the first husband of Joan. An extraction of this suit published in pedigree form in The Genealogist (n.s. vol. 25) shows Nicholas the son of Thomas Smethe, and critically shows that Christopher Gay acted as his son's bailiff in the suit, which makes me think the latter was still a minor at the time (1494), and as such would seemingly put his (and her) younger half-brothers reaching maturity perhaps in the following decade.

And this brings us to our conclusion. Peter Maplesden was born say 1507-10 (old enough to be named his father's executor in 1528, yet still a minor), which seemingly places the father of his wife Joan, Thomas Gay, in the generation marrying in the first decade of the 1500s, suggesting his identification with the Thomas who was son of Christopher and Joan. There were later links: after Peter Maplesden’s death, his sons sold his land in 1561 in a document witnessed by Christopher Gay, while Peter's son George would leave a legacy to 'cousin Thomas Gay' in his 1590 will.

[end Part 2]

taf

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 3:46:35 PM9/29/21
to
[Part 3/4]

Having made the tentative connection, can we fill out this family any further? We get another nugget from the Close Rolls, this time Henry VII, Vol. 1. Here we see that in 1486, 21 November, Christopher Gay, gentleman of Elmestede, was beneficiary of a quitclaim from Clemence Turnour of Grenehith, Kent, of "a tenement with quay adjacent lying in Pety Wales in the parish of All Saints Berkyng by the Tower of London" and its rents, "which she held by the bequest of Margaret wife of Thomas Gay, mother of said Christopher", seemingly the same property as Clare's Quay his son Humphrey would later quitclaim. Note that this record is at seeming conflict with Christopher's will in which he names his mother as Elizabeth, but given the usage of 'mother' for 'step-mother', this seems to indicate that he was son of Thomas by wife Margaret, and that Thomas subsequently married Elizabeth.

We seem to see this All-Hallows Barking property earlier. In the Close roll of 1451 (Henry VI, vol. 5) we have "Thomas Pound 'gentilman' to Thomas Gay the elder citizen of London, his heirs and assigns. Charter of demise and feoffment, in fulfilment of the will of Margaret late wife of Thomas Gay citizen and tailor of London and sometime wife of Robert Cony of London, of a tenement with quay adjacent in 'Petywales' in the parish of Allhallows 'Berkyngchirche' by the Tower of London in the 'Tourewarde,'" including a tenement and wharf. This Robert Cony, holding the office of joignour (joiner/carpenter) within the Tower of London, appears frequently and in 1446, his widow Margaret surrendered some land, with no indication yet of a remarriage (Patent Rolls, Henry VI, vol. 4).

As such, we have seemingly identified our Thomas, father of Christopher as a Thomas Gay the elder, citizen and tailor of London, who oft appears as does his brother Thomas Gay the younger. (Again thanks to Chris Phillips's extracts, these match the names of two men appearing in a Devon fine from 1435 in which Walter Gay acquires land with remainder to his brother Thomas Gay the elder, then Thomas Gay the younger, brother of Thomas, then Isabel Gay, sister of Thomas, but in the absence of further contacts, this may be coincidence.) Though the connection is not explicit, I first find what appears to be this man acting in concert with RIchard Norden, citizen and tailor, in a 1429 London fine.

This Thomas and his wife Margaret appear in an Essex fine in 1449, placing her death 1449-1451. (This fine also involves a John Byhold - could this be the John Bylhole with wife Thomasine who held final remainder in the Walter Gay fine from Devon?) By 1461, Thomas Gay the elder appears with Elizabeth his wife (Close Rolls, Edward IV, vol. 1), matching the wife attributed to Thomas in Christopher's will.

There a was likely an earlier wife - per TNA catalogue, in 1439 a deed was executed between Alice, widow of Geoffrey Colet, daughter and heir of Alice wife of John Ponke daughter and heir of John Pultemore, and Thomas Gay, citizen of London, Alice his wife, and Thomas Gay his brother, while Thomas Gay and wife Alice, citizens of London, received a plenary indulgence in 1442, per the Papal Registers. Though not explicitly referred to as 'the elder', his listing before his brother and being named as a citizen unlike his brother, suggest that is the case. This would further constrain the marriage of Thomas the elder and Margaret, and hence Christopher's birth.

Thomas seems to have left London after about 1465, and I only again find him in 1484 (Patent Rolls, Edward IV-Richard III). He seems to have been dead shortly afterward, as Anne, daughter of Thomas Gay the elder, late of London, tailor brought suit against John Malburgh et al (dated 1485-1493), while in a poorly dated suit, Anne, daughter of Thomas Gay sued Thomas Gay junr (i.e. the younger). The latter had married. In a poorly-dated suit from 1465-1483 (TNA), Thomas Gay of London has as wife Katherine, daughter of John Clerk of Salisbury, and in a 1470 suit (AALT Index), Katherine's husband is explicitly called Thomas ‘the younger’. "Thomas Gay, citizen of London, alias the sd Thomas Gay junior citizen of London" appears in a plea in 1485 (extracted in John Ross Delafield, Delafield Family History), then the will of Thomas Gay, citizen and tailor of London, proved 1491, names wife Katherine and son George, with George's will following, proved in 1505. There is an escheat entry in the Calendar of Fine Rolls (vol 22) for Katherine Gay, widow, London, in April 1497. In a suit dated 1504-1515 (TNA), Richard Reygny, her nephew, sued William Edwards of London over the detention of deeds relating to Dunster and Dartmouth, formerly belonging to her.

[end Part 3]

taf

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 3:50:02 PM9/29/21
to
[Part 4/4]

Summary Pedigree

1 (unknown) Gay

11 Thomas Gay the elder, citizen and tailor, London, married 1) by 1439, Alice, last seen 1442. married 2) after 1442, Margaret Bewbury, of co. Staffs.,[the visitation assigns the mother of Christopher this surname and derivation], widow of Robert Cony of London. Margaret was dead by 1451. m.3) before 1461 Elizabeth. He was still living in 1484, but apparently died not long afterward.

111 (mother uncertain) Anne Gay, who sued her uncle, date unknown

112 (by Margaret) Christopher Gay, b 1442|1451, married twice, first to Agnes Webbe of Warharne [surname assigned to Humphrey's mother by visitation] married second, Joan, widow of Nicholas Smethe, son of Thomas Smethe. His will written 1507 was proved 1509.

1121 (by Agnes) Humphrey Gay, b. say 1475, married by 1494 to Alice Smethe, daughter and heiress of Nicholas Smethe and Joan, later Humphrey's step-mother. The visitation makes Edmund and his brothers sons of ____ Welles, daughter of Humphrey Welles of Devon, which does not fit with the reconstruction here. Unless this was simply an editorial error, there most likely explanation is that Humphrey married again after we last see Alice in 1525 (or maybe earlier if both wives were named Alice) and had Edmund but probably not the elder sons by this second marriage. An Ales Gay was buried at Elmsted 13 August 1544. Humphrey is mentioned holding land in Elmsted in 1553,[Cal. Patent Rolls, vol. 5] yet this may be based on dated information, as there is an Umfrey Gay buried at Elmsted 12 October 1547.

11211 (by Alice) Elizabeth (Besse) Gay, b. bef. 1507 when named in grandfather's will.

11212 (by Alice) Christopher Gay of Swalecliffe, oldest son, perhaps b. aft. 1507 since not named in will of grandfather, he appears in Kent records in the 1540s to 1560s, and died testate, leaving a will dated 1585 that names his son Thomas.

112121 Thomas Gay of Swalecliffe

1121211 Thomas Gay of Swalecliffe married at Herne (licence 11 December 1613) to Pleasant Terry of Herne

11212111 Thomas Gay, bap. 15 Jan. 1614 Swalecliffe, named in the will of his uncle Christopher

11212112 Richard Gay, bap. 26 Dec. 1617, Swalecliffe, not named in family wills so probably d.y.

11212113 Jeremy Gay of Canterbury, bap. 24 Nov. 1622, Swalecliffe, named in the will of his uncle Christopher and left a legacy in that of cousin Jeremy. He was signer of the 1665 visitation, with children Thomas, bap. 8 May 1648, Goodestone, Kent, Mary, Rebecca and Elizabeth

11212114 Joseph Gay, bap. 29 April 1632, Swalecliffe, named in the will of his uncle Christopher, and that of Elizabeth, widow of Jeremy Gay of London

11212115 Elizabeth Gay, named in the will of Elizabeth Gay, widow of Jeremy of London, her godmother

1121212 Edmund Gay of Nonington, named in his father's will, that of brother Christopher, and that of cousin Jeremy. He had two children by his first wife, before ramarrying in 1635, Swalecliffe, to Dorothy Byng, mother of his three youngest daughters, named along with their siblings in his 1648 PCC will.

11212121 Jeremy Gaye (1st wife), bap. 22 Nov, 1625, Bishopsbourne, named in the will of his uncle Christopher and father

11212122 Elizabeth Gaye (1st wife), bap. 21 Jan. 1627, Nonington, named in he wills of her uncle Christopher, of Elizabeth, widow of Jeremy of London, and of her father

11212123 Ann Gaye (2nd wife), bap. 27 Nov. 1636, Swalecliffe

11212124 Rachel Gaye (2nd wife), bap. 30 Nov. 1638, Swalecliffe

11212125 Dorothy Gaye (2nd wife), bap. 12 Aug 1641, Nonington

1121213 Christopher Gay, named in his father's will and that of cousin Jeremy as Christopher Gaye of the City of Canterbury, it was as Christopher Gaye of Herne that he left a 1633 will, being buried 17 April 1633, Swalecliffe

1121214 Elizabeth Gay, named in the 1630 will of cousin Jeremy and that of Jeremy's widow Elizabeth in 1638.

112122 Elizabeth Gay, bap. 30 November 1542 Elmsted (perhaps the mother of nephew Frances Hart named in will of brother Thomas Gay)

11213 (by first wife, Alice) Osmund Gay, second son, b. after Christopher, probably before 1510 or so, admitted Gray's Inn 1528, reader there 1547. He married first, vefore 1546/7, Anne, d. by 1550, m.2 8 April 1550, Elmsted, Cecile Tripp, m.3 by 1558, Margaret, widow of John Fynche of Milton by Sittingbourne. He resided at Gray's Inn, Holburn St. Andrew in London, as well as Elmsted, Charte juxta Sutton Valance, Milton, and Preston next Faversham in Kent, last found in 1560.

11214 (by second wife) Edmond Gay of Petham, he was "late of Elmested . . . alias late of Godneston next Wyngham" when pardoned in 1559, and was the informant of the 1574 visitation, having married first Bennett Goldwell, dau John Goldwell m.2 1559 Mary (Honywood) Boys, dau John Honywood and widow of Vincent Boys [see Honeywood in 1574 visitation], having children (by Bennet) Thomas, (by Mary) Mary 1560, Jeromie 1561, Edward 1564 (? d.y. by 1574), and Joseph 1566

112141 Thomas (first wife)

112142 Mary (second wife), born 1560

112143 Jeromy (second wife), born 1561, a London citizen and Merchant Tailor, residing in St. Mary Abchurch, he married 1589, St Gregory by St Paul, London, Elizabeth Whittle. In his 1630 PCC will he made the remainders of all of his properties left to his widow to fall to the descendants of his uncle Christopher, suggesting his father Edmund's sons may all have died without surviving issue. He was buried at St. Marys Abchurch, 1 March 1631/2.

1121441 Edmund, bur. 1 Dec. 1597, St. John the Baptist, Greenwich

112144 Edward (second wife), born 1564

112145 Joseph (second wife), born 1566

1122 Thomas Gay, m. by 1507, Joan. He is likely the Thomas involved in a 1515|1518 suit over land in Ashford, Kent [TNA]

11221 (apparently) Joan Gay, first wife of Peter Maplesden of Maidstone, b. say 1507-1510. She was dead by 1553 when he remarried, before being indicted, arrested, conficted, attainted and sentenced to be hanged drawn and quartered for participation in Wyatt's rebellion. He was pardoned, but is not seen again, and was dead by 1561 when his sons sold his land in Maidstone, Christopher Gay witnessing.

1123 Edward Gay, married and father of a child by 1507. [He may be connected with the Edward Gay with wife Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Gosborne and coheiress of his son Edward, who were sued by her sisters and coheiresses over lands in Kent in 1529|1532 [TNA], though her brother was born after 1502, so unless she was much older than him, or much younger than her husband, this would be a later generation]

11231 Thomas Gay, named in his grandfather's 1507 will

2 Thomas Gay the younger, citizen and tailor of London, married Katherine Clerk, daughter of John Clerk of Salisbury, and aunt of Richard Reygny. His will was proved 1491.

21 George Gay, will proved 1505.

3 (poss) Walter Gay, fl. 1435, Devon. There was a Walter Gay of Kyrton, Devon in a 1440 AALT index entry, which could be him.

4 (poss) Isable Gay, given remainder to Devon fine, 1435

[end final Part]

taf

Will Johnson

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 4:18:00 PM9/29/21
to
If these marriages and baptisms are right so far, then Mary Honywood, has a rather tight chronology.

John Honywood, esq (so said in 1557), "eldest son"
had two wives
By the first Agnes Martyn, he had "one son and four daughters"
one of these daughters is supposed to be that Mary Honywood m Edmond Gay

https://books.google.com/books?id=MjVTNK5ObWoC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=mary%20honywood%20vincent%20boys&pg=PA309#v=onepage&q=mary%20honywood%20vincent%20boys&f=true

see footnote 3

The one son was John, so continued in this source
However by Miss Barnes, John the elder's second wife he *also* had a son Robert

Robert /Honywood/ of Charing, co Kent and Mark's Hall, co Essex; esq
d 1576

This Robert himself had a son Robert for whom we have an exact birth date of
18 Sep 1545

http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1#PPA512,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=VKZWAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA399

http://books.google.com/books?id=g6wKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA733

Robert the father was therefore born by 1527 and so his parents were married by 1526
And so (finally) we have that Mary Honywood was born also by 1526

However, taf, above, has told us she had a youngest child Joseph Gay baptised 1566
Allowing her to be at most 48 we get a birthrange of 1518-1526



taf

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 7:59:16 PM9/29/21
to
This whole analysis is based ont he acceptence of the pedigree given by Hasted, but it is at odds with the contemporary 1574 visitation pedigree given by Mary's brother (assuming the published version accurately represents the original visitation).

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000116430657&view=1up&seq=83&skin=2021

Hasted, as cited above, gives the following:

John Honywood m. 1 Agnes Martin
....John Honywood m. Mary Hales
........Thomas Honywood
........John Honywood
........Christopher Honywood
........(two daughters, names not given)
....Bennet Honywood m. John Dryland
....Isabel Honywood m. Christopher Latchford
....Mary Honywood m1. Vincent Boys, m.2 Edmund Gay
....Joan Honywood m. Ferrers

The 1574 visitation gives:

John Honywood m.1 Agnes Martin
....John Honywood m. Mildred Hales
........Thomas Honywood (signer of visitation pedigree)
........John Honywood
........Christopher Honywood
........Isabel Honywood m. Christopher Lasheford
........Joan Honywood m. Roger Moone
........Margaret Honywood d.y.
........Bennet Honywood m. John Dryland
........Mary Honywood m1. Vincen Boys, m.2 Edmond Gay
....Joan Honywood m. Ferryk
John Honywood m.2 Barnes
....Robert Honywood
....Bennet Honywood m. John Turney
....Margaret Honywood m. Edward Halles

The 1592 visitation was provided by Robert Honywood the younger, and is similar:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000116430665&view=1up&seq=121&skin=2021

John Honywoode m.1 Agnes Martin
....John Honywood m. Myldred Hales
........Thomas Honywoode
........John Honywoode
........Christopher Honywoode
........Isabel Honywoode m. Christopher Lashforde
........Bennett Honywoode m. John Drylande
........Marye Honywoode m1. Boys, m.2 Edmonde Gaye
....Johan Honywoode m. Ferrytt
John Honywoode m.2 Alys Barnes
....Robert Honywoode (father of Robert who provided pedigree)
....Bennett Honywoode m. John Turney

Both pedigrees, one given by Mary's brother, the other by her half-first-cousin, place her as niece of Robert rather than elder half-sister, so clearly, Hasted has transferred her, along with sisters Isabel Lashford and Bennet Dryland, one generation back in the pedigree. THeir correct placement removes the constraint that was the basis for the supposed tight chronology.

taf

taf

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 9:32:11 PM9/29/21
to
On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:59:16 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> Both pedigrees, one given by Mary's brother, the other by her half-first-cousin, place
> her as niece of Robert rather than elder half-sister, so clearly, Hasted has transferred
> her, along with sisters Isabel Lashford and Bennet Dryland, one generation back in
> the pedigree. THeir correct placement removes the constraint that was the basis for
> the supposed tight chronology.

It should probably be mentioned that while this chronological constraint is misplaced, there is an actual chronologial constraint for Mary Honywood. Mary remarried to Edmund Gay in 1559, but according to the 1592 visitation, she was already mother of 7 living children at the time. If you assign them 2 years per child as an average, and assume they were all singletons and there were no additional children who died in infancy, it puts the first child born about 1546, and a birth about 1528, which is not too different than that set in the previous schema, and placing her last birth at age 38. However, if the Boys children were born with a higher frequency (often the case in families that hire wetnurses due to removeal of the typical lactational fertility suppression), that would give something more like her birth in say 1531, her first child about 1549 and her youngest when she was 35.

taf

Will Johnson

unread,
Sep 29, 2021, 11:27:48 PM9/29/21
to
Bennet who m1 John /Tourney/ of Brockhall m2 Walter /Moyle/ "fourth son"
by whom
Robert /Moyle/ of Buckwell in Boughton Aluph; esq
bur 5 Jul 1600 Buckwell in Boughton Aluph

Bennet has a Will proved 2 Mar 1584

David Branson

unread,
Nov 5, 2022, 4:06:47 PM11/5/22
to

Gillian Mckenna

unread,
Feb 4, 2023, 4:38:58 AM (3 days ago) Feb 4
to
Hi All

The will for Bennet Moyle of Boughton Aluph Kent was written 16th Apr 1580 & proved 2nd Mar 1584 (Source: Consistory Court of Canterbury, Canterbury Cathedral Archives PRC 32/35/143). She is described as the widow of Walter Moyle but in the will it is apparent that she was previously married to a Turney as she has a son Thomas Turney and a daughter Bennet Turney (maybe dau in law?). Also mentioned Bennet Turney god daughter and John Turney.
Will transcribed on Maureen Rawson's Rootsweb site.

Best regards

Gillian

Will Johnson

unread,
Feb 6, 2023, 6:52:15 PM (20 hours ago) Feb 6
to
Could you post a link directly to the transcription

pj.ev...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 6, 2023, 8:20:40 PM (18 hours ago) Feb 6
to

Gillian Mckenna

unread,
3:09 AM (11 hours ago) 3:09 AM
to

Will Johnson

unread,
11:49 AM (3 hours ago) 11:49 AM
to
Please go fuck yourself you snotty piece of shit.
Have a nice day

Will Johnson

unread,
11:53 AM (3 hours ago) 11:53 AM
to
Haha and P Evans you can't even read.
You send a pedigree chart! We were not even speaking about that, but rather about the transcription of the WILL you country mouse
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages