Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

[Graham Milne]

Hi,

Has anyone got any information on Beatrix of Jerusalem, apparently daughter of Guy de Lusignan, father of Hugh IV, King of Cyprus, by Eschive d'Ibelin, who married Blaqueria de Montolieu?

http://www.geni.com/list/index?focus_id=6000000010682524729&group=ancestors

http://archive.org/stream/MoreriGdDictHist07bnf.pdf/MoreriGdDictHist07bnf#page/n763/mode/1up

Many thanks,

Graham

[Wjhonson]

I don't see that in this source
Since Geni.com is a mash of nonsense, I'm referring to Le Grand Dictionnaire...

I see a "Louise" of Jerusalem who is not in the right generation and has no parents given....

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[Graham Milne]

Beatrix is at the bottom right of page 757, 19 lines from the bottom – where the St. Hippolyte line starts.

Graham

[Derek Howard]

I cannot access the former. The later, for the record, is L Moréri: "Le grand dictionnaire historique", 1759 edition, vol 7, p 757.

For the family of Blaqueria de Montolieu see also the same data at De la Chenaye-Desbois & Badier: "Dictionnaire de la noblesse", 3rd ed., 1870, v 14, p 442
http://archive.org/stream/dictionnairedela14aube#page/221/

For the family of Guy of Cyprus, husband of Eschive d’Ybelin, see Anselme de Sainte-Marie: "Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la maison royale de France, des pairs, grands officiers de la Couronne, de la Maison du Roy et des anciens barons du royaume", 3rd ed., continued by M. Du Fourny, 9 vols 1726-1733, vol 2, p 597, at XVI, D
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k76027w/f630

I do not see Beatrix listed there.

What is your evidence that Beatrix was apparently the daughter of Guy?

For the earlier House of Lusignan, including the first House of the Kings of Cyrpus see De la Chenaye-Desbois & Badier: "Dictionnaire de la noblesse", 3rd ed., 1870, v 12, p 566
http://archive.org/stream/dictionnairedela12aube#page/282/

Derek Howard

[Graham Milne]

Many thanks for replying. The parentage of Beatrix was given on the Geni.com link. It is also stated at:

http://roger.gau.pagesperso-orange.fr/mon%20ascendance.htm

1123105 Béatrix de JÉRUSALEM née vers 1280 parents 2246210 et 2246211

but no source is cited. It was because Beatrix is not generally mentioned as a daughter of Guy that I posted to the group. Why would someone just assume that a Beatrix de Jerusalem was the daughter of Guy de Lusignan, unless they just assumed that 'Jerusalem' meant the royal house and Guy was living at that time?

The Montolieus are a fascinating family. They seem to have been solidly at war for hundreds of years with many members in the Order of St. John. They held Chastel Rouge of the Counts of Tripoli at one time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chastel_Rouge) and also seem to have inter-married with the Grimaldis. The Marseille branch, Marquis of Montolieu (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_de_Montolieu)and the Protestant branch, Baron of St. Hippolyte (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LHKBWAz9MMQC&pg=PA350#v=onepage&q&f=false), fought on opposite sides (French v Allies).

Graham

[Wjhonson]

Yes they assumed.
The person who created that Geni page is an amateur genealogist with no published papers to their name.

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From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

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[Graham Milne]

Ah! but I'm also an amateur genealogist and I am always right! How do you answer that?

[Wjhonson]

You live in a Universe where you are always right.
However it's a Bubble Universe enclosing only yourself.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; grahammilne001 <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 11:15 am
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

Ah! but I'm also an amateur genealogist and I am always right! How do you answer that?

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[Graham Milne]

On Monday, October 29, 2012 6:23:24 PM UTC, wjhonson wrote:

You live in a Universe where you are always right.
However it's a Bubble Universe enclosing only yourself.

Er, I was joking.

[Wjhonson]

I was assisting you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; grahammilne001 <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

-------------------------------

[W David Samuelsen]

Geni.com is NOT reliable source because it is compiled by amateurs who
don't know much about importance of sources, even worse, copied from
other genealogists who copied from other genealogists, ad nauseum to the
point it must be true when it is not.

I do not recall seeing Beatrix as Guy's daughter at all, at least not in
my family database. Two known daughters, Alix and Marie, both died young
in a plague at Acre 1190. Guy died without issue, and was succeeded by
brother Amalric

David Samuelsen

On 10/28/2012 10:08 AM, Graham Milne wrote:

> http://www.geni.com/list/index?focus_id=6000000010682524729&group=ancestors

[Graham Milne]

Thank you. I guess it will remain a mystery - unless I can find the source used by Moréri (p. 758).

[Wjhonson]

But even that does not specify her parents.
Just that she was "Of Jerusalem"
Lots of people were living there at that time.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

[Graham Milne]

Cor. It looks as though the Montolieus may have been Viscounts of Tripoli. See:

http://www.templiers.net/symbolique/index.php?page=neuf-sceaux-orient-latin

which refers to:

http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr01duca#page/974/mode/1up

where it says that Gerard, brother of Raimond de Montolif signed a charter as Viscount of Tripoli.

Any views on whether Montolieu and Montolif are the same?

See also http://www.templiers.net/Chateaux-Orient-Latin/index.php?page=chateau-le-chastel-rouge also.

[Graham Milne]

Theory. Does 'Montolif' derive from 'Mount of Olives'?

[Graham Milne]

October 1177 - 'Raimundus, comes Tripolitanus, cum uxore Eschiva, Hospitali et magistro Rogerio Castrum Rubrum nec non casale alias vocatum Turrem Bertranii Milonis... donat.' Reinhold Rohricht, 'Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani', Innsbruck, 1893, page 146, no. 549. 'Cartulary of the Hospitallers of Saint John of Jerusalem', Book I, pp. 353-354, no. 519. November 1178 - 'Raymundus de Montolif et frater ejus renuntiant omnia jura quae habent in Castellum Rubrum quae possederant et Raymundus, comes Tripolitanus, Hospitali concesserat ex cambio CCCC bisantiorum [400 bezants].', 'Cartulary of the Hospitallers of Saint John of Jerusalem', Book I, pp. 371-372, no. 549; Reinhold Rohricht, 'Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani', Innsbruck, 1893, Add., p. 35, no. 562a.

[Graham Milne]

PS The arms of the Montolieu family in France were barry of gold and blue. The arms of Guillaume, Viscount of Tripoli at http://www.templiers.net/symbolique/index.php?page=neuf-sceaux-orient-latin look similar.

[Wjhonson]

Your French is weak. This word "souserit" does not mean "as"

> > where it says that Gerard, brother of Raimond de Montolif signed a charter
as Viscount of Tripoli.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

[Graham Milne]

A Bartholomew de Montolif is mentioned at http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr01duca#page/143/mode/2up

Temp Hugues IV de Lusignan.

[Graham Milne]

I guess it means 'subscribed' i.e. signed

[Wjhonson]

Yes "souscrit" subscribes

[Graham Milne]

There is a Beatrix mentioned at http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr01duca#page/419/mode/2up

Your French is better than mine. Can you translate. Seems about the right time.

[Wjhonson]

Yes but she is a Lanza right?
You can read the part that says sister (soeur)
manfred her nephew
mother of Frederic
and on on....

Doesn't seem related to your hunt

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; grahammilne001 <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

There is a Beatrix mentioned at http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr01duca#page/419/mode/2up

Your French is better than mine. Can you translate. Seems about the right time.

[John H]

I believe all genealogists are amateur at some point,
as they dont always do it for payment,
even the so called pro's.

Using the Definition of amateur as those below:
am戢暗eur/'am?t?r/ Noun: A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on
an unpaid basis.


Adjective: Engaging or engaged in without payment; nonprofessional.


Synonyms: noun. dilettante - dabbler - lover - fancier
adjective. amateurish - dilettante
+++++++++++++++++++++






A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a
pastime rather than as a profession.

Also some of the arguing that goes on in this list makes one wonder sometime
if anyone is professional
especially when taking into account their behaviour towards others.

AND Yes I am "taking the Mickey" like the others in this thread discussion.
For those who dont understand "taking the Mickey" just taking it as a <big
grin> will do!
OR perhaps look at > http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/344000.html <

John H.

"Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2.135153772...@rootsweb.com...

[Derek Howard]

On Monday, October 29, 2012 9:55:46 PM UTC+1, Graham Milne wrote:
> A Bartholomew de Montolif is mentioned at http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr01duca#page/143/mode/2up
>
> Temp Hugues IV de Lusignan.

The de Montolipho family had a long standing connection to Cyprus.

One Simon de Montolipho, son of Thomas and one of the knights of Amaury, the titular prince of Tyr (brother of Henry II king of Cyprus), murdered Amaury over a question of debt, 3 June 1310, and cut off his right hand as a souvenir, see Florio Bustron: “Chronique de l’isle de Chypre”, ed R de Mas Latrie, 1884, pp 196-8
http://archive.org/stream/chroniquedelle00bustuoft#page/196/

Bustron mentions a number of other members of the family:
Giacomo de Montolipho, p 193
Simon de Monteolipho, p 211
madama Sibilla de Montolipho, p 211
Gioan de Montolipho, p 235
Thomaso de Montolipho, l'auditore, p 259
signor Tomaso de Montolipho, pp 268, 281
Bartolomeo de Montolipho, p 295
Perotto de Monloliplio, Glimont suo fratello, p 350
Rinaldo de Montolipho, p 350
Francesco de Montolipho, p 378
Gioan de Montolipho, marizzal de Cipro, p 387
Gian de Montolipho marizzal de Cipro e signor de Tiro, p 397
Francesco de Montolipho, p 397
Gioan de Montolipho, p 435
Simonetto de Montolifo Appendice I 464

Derek Howard

[Derek Howard]

M Balard: "Les Latins en Orient (XIe-XVe siècle)", 2006, 71, lists the Montolieu family, who held Chastel Rouge, as one of the Provençal families who dominated the settlment of the county of Tripoli. Balard does not mention any Montolif.

The family of Montolif is outlined in Du Cange "Les familles d’Outre-mer", ed Rey, 1869, pp 557-564, see
http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr02duca#page/60/

Derek Howard

[Graham Milne]

Many, many thanks for that. It will take time to absorb. But there does seem to be a connection between Montolif and Montolieu. We seem to acknowledge that the Montolieu family held Chastel Rouge until 1177 when the castle was passsed to the Order of St. John. As I posted above, in November 1178 - 'Raymundus de Montolif et frater ejus renuntiant omnia jura quae habent in Castellum Rubrum quae possederant et Raymundus, comes Tripolitanus, Hospitali concesserat ex cambio CCCC bisantiorum [400 bezants].', 'Cartulary of the Hospitallers of Saint John of Jerusalem', Book I, pp. 371-372, no. 549; Reinhold Rohricht, 'Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani', Innsbruck, 1893, Add., p. 35, no. 562a. This would seem to indicate that Monolif and Montolieu are the same family. What do you think?

[Graham Milne]

PS

http://archive.org/stream/lesfamillesdoutr02duca#page/60/mode/2up

actually states that the family were indifferently known as Montolif, Montolieu, de Monte Olivarum, de Monte Olivo, Montolivo or de Mont Oliu, being the name of a small village in Laguedoc where the family came from, being originally from Marseille. So it seems to be clear that we are dealing with branches of the same family. What does 'Nous n'oserions 'l'affirmer' (on that page) mean?

[David Topping]

Essentially that there isn't enough evidence to be sure. In an idiomatic form - We wouldn't go that far.

[Wjhonson]

He starts off saying something like "did they have the same origin? were they members of the same family?" And then he says "We dare to affirm it."

That's the basic sense, although my ability to read French is barely passable.
And I certainly can't speak it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 30, 2012 6:10 am
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

[Wjhonson]

Oops David is right!
He doesn't say "we dare to affirm it"
He says "We do NOT dare to affirm it...."

I skipped the n....

-----Original Message-----
From: David Topping <davi...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; Graham Milne <grahamm...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 30, 2012 7:21 am
Subject: Re: Beatrix of Jerusalem d.o. Guy de Lusignan

[Graham Milne]

I have summarized things so far at:

http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/hippolite.htm

I have written to the Austrian state archives to try to obtain a copy of the letters patent of 1706. It would be nice to resurrect the title (which looks as though it would go to the Stopford family).

[Derek Howard]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:31:35 PM UTC+1, Graham Milne wrote:
> I have summarized things so far at:
> http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/hippolite.htm

Montolieu looks quite a nice village:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3580082
Easily found on Google maps.

Derek Howard