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Agnes Sorel mysteries

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Leo van de Pas

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Jan 19, 2007, 11:34:31 PM1/19/07
to GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
I am trying to establish her family a little more solidly and to be honest I am hitting brick walls.

Agnes Sorel was a daughter of Jean Soreau and Catherine de Maignelais. Why is she known as Sorel when her father was Soreau?

I found four brothers (but no sister) for Agnes : Andre, Charles, Jean and Louis. All four seem to have been called Soreau. These four brothers seem not to have left a trace. Surely with Agnes in a position of power she would have found properties or positions for them?
Her father's brother Geoffroy Soreau became Bishop of Nimes, did she have a hand in this?

Apparently she became an orphan quite young. Would it be possible that her immediate family was wiped out through disease?
She was first looked after (I understand) by her mother's sister-in-law Marie de Jouy, Madame de Maignelais wife of Jean II Seigneur de Maignelais.

Even the year of her birth is vague, about 1422. Apparently she was about 28 when she died.

Can anyone help?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Tony Hoskins

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Jan 20, 2007, 12:25:16 PM1/20/07
to leov...@netspeed.com.au, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Hello Leo,

I've observed other such variations in French surnames. My view is that
"Sorel" is likely merely a variant of "Soreau" (or even vice versa,
depending on your point of reference.) This looseness about precision in
surname orthography is of course not limited to medieval France. One
observes it in other venues - 17th century French Canada, not to mention
medieval and early modern Britain, etc.

I wonder if Agnes Sorel's fame might have prompted a certain "poetic
pronunciation", as well. To my ear, "Sorel" is more euphonious than
"Soreau". Just my opinion!

Best wishes,

Tony


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

pj.evans

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Jan 20, 2007, 5:05:31 PM1/20/07
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My thought was that it was parallel to 'beau' and 'bel'. It's close
enough.

Tony Hoskins

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Jan 20, 2007, 8:13:56 PM1/20/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, pj.eva...@usa.net
"My thought was that it was parallel to 'beau' and 'bel'. It's close
enough."

Yes. But I think these variations are non-gender in origin. There is of
course the case of Queen Isabeau of France (nee of Bavaria-Ingolstadt) -
Isabeau being a variant of Isabelle.

eric.fr...@wanadoo.fr

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Jan 20, 2007, 9:38:14 PM1/20/07
to between, Catherine, was, nine

eric.fr...@wanadoo.fr

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Jan 20, 2007, 9:40:38 PM1/20/07
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> > Canberra, Australia- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

eric.fr...@wanadoo.fr

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Jan 20, 2007, 9:50:35 PM1/20/07
to dental examination gives an even more precise age : between 23 years 9 months and 27years 9 months !, Catherine, was, nine

> > > Canberra, Australia- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Denis Beauregard

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Jan 21, 2007, 1:24:02 AM1/21/07
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On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:34:31 +1100, "Leo van de Pas"
<leov...@netspeed.com.au> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>I am trying to establish her family a little more solidly and to be honest I am hitting brick walls.
>
>Agnes Sorel was a daughter of Jean Soreau and Catherine de Maignelais. Why is she known as Sorel when her father was Soreau?

Sorel is the female form of Soreau, that's all. Actually, the exact
female form would be Sorelle, but at that time, spelling was not yet
fixed.

This usage happened many times in early Quebec records (after 1621).
For example, family names in -et written as -ette (i.e. Frenet and
Frenette, Guenet and Guenette, etc.). Roy written as Reine for a
mother. However, this happened many times but was not very
frequent i.e. you will find very few records where the family name
is written with the female form for a daughter.

This has nothing to do with poetry.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
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|\ French in North America before 1721 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
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Leo van de Pas

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Jan 21, 2007, 2:12:03 AM1/21/07
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Many thanks. This at least explains her surname.
Leo


Denis

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jlucsoler

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Jan 21, 2007, 3:43:35 AM1/21/07
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Denis je suis desolé je ne suis pas tout a fait d'accord


even for male, we can often meet on XIV, XV, XVI XVII centuries acts the
form "el" and "au" (or "eau") for the same people.

the form can change even in the same act

for example... a district in marseille is called "les Cadeneaux" the founder
was a farmer of the XV century called on acts "André cadenel" on other act
he is calles "Cadeneau, cadenau" but for the most part it is CADENEL

his daugthers were called CADENELLE or CADENEL

it s the same for many names in provence CODONEL/CODONAU
COSTEBEL/COUSTABEAU and others and others... for MALES

eric.fr...@wanadoo.fr

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Jan 21, 2007, 7:04:15 AM1/21/07
to dental examination gives an even more precise age : between 23 years 9 months and 27 years nine months !!, Catherine, was, and, 9

On Jan 20, 5:34 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

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