Complete Peerage Addition: Death date of Maud de Montgomery, Countess of Mortain

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 427-428 (sub Cornwall) includes an account
of Robert, Count of Mortain [died 1090], the uterine half-brother of
King William the Conqueror.

Regarding his first wife, Maud de Montgomery, the following limited
information is supplied:

"He married, 1stly, before 1066, Maud, daughter of Roger (de
Montgomery), Earl of Shrewsbury, by his 1st wife, Mabel, daughter and
heiress of William, Seigneur d'Alençon and Bellême. She was buried in
the Abbey of Grestain." END OF QUOTE.

As we can see, no death date is provided for Maud de Montgomery.
Rather, we are told only her place of burial.

Regardless, the death date of Maud, Countess of Mortain, as 21
September is found in an ancient calendar published in 1825 in an
obscure source, Codicum Manuscriptorum Ecclesiae Cathedralis
Dunelmensis. On page 214, the following information is provided:

"Nomina quae in Kalendario (supra Tr. 5.) occurrunt.

XI. Kal. Octobr. [21 September] Obiit Mathildis Comitissa de
Moretonio." END OF QUOTE.

The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tCIDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA214

On page 206 the editor of the book identifies Maud, Countess of
Mortain, above as the wife of Robert, Count of Mortain, the half-
brother of King William the Conqueror ["Fuit ista Matildis Uxor
Roberti Comitis de Moretonio in Normannia].

It should be noted that Maud de Montgomery, Countess of Mortain, is
ancestress to numerous people well known in medieval history,
including Eleanor of Aquitaine, wife of King Louis VII of France and
King Henry II of England; Eleanor of Provence, wife of King Henry III
of England; Ela of Salisbury, wife of William Longespee, Earl of
Salisbury; Robert de Ferrers, 2nd Earl of Derby; Guy de Thouars (died
1213), Duke of Brittany, Earl of Richmond; as well as various Kings of
Aragon, France, and Portugal.

In short, Maud de Montgomery, Countess of Mortain, is likely ancestral
to most members of the medieval genealogy newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Peter Stewart]

Extracts from the 12th-century & later obituary of Durham cathedral in
which this entry occurs were printed in a rather less "obscure" book
than Rud's catalogue of Durham cathedral manuscripts - see _Liber vitae
ecclesiae Dunelmensis nec non obituaria duo ejusdem ecclesiae_ edited by
Joseph Stevenson for the Surtees Society (London, 1841), page 140.

The source is discussed by Michael Gullick in 'The Scribes of the Durham
Cantor's Book ... and the Durham Martyrology Scribe' in _Anglo-Norman
Durham_, edited by David Rollason & others (Woodbridge, 1994) 93-110.

Peter Stewart

[CE Wood]

21 September of what year?


CE Wood

[J Cook]

>
> On Sep 29, 3:00 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

>
> > XI. Kal. Octobr. [21 September]  Obiit Mathildis Comitissa de
> > Moretonio."  END OF QUOTE.

Why is XI. Kal. Oct. translated as "21 sept" ? I don't understand
that..

Thanks,
Joe C

[taf]

On Sep 29, 4:26 pm, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
> 21 September of what year?

Can't tell - all we know is that the religious community commemorated
her death by praying for her soul every 21 September.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

The eleventh day counting back from (and including) the kalends (1st) of
October is 21st September.

Peter Stewart

[John Watson]

A useful website for medieval calendar calculations for those who are
not aware of it:

http://www.wallandbinkley.com/mcc/mcc_main.html

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The authors, David Bates and Anne Curry, in their book, England and
Normandy in the Middle Ages (1994): 136-137 cite evidence that Maud de
Montgomery, Countess of Mortain, died in 1082:

pg. 136: "Lastly, in the pancarte of Grestain, the pincerna of the
Countess Matilda of Mortain promised an annual sum of £15 Anglorum
nummorum to the abbey at her death in 1082." END OF QUOTE.

pg. 137: "In contrast to the treatment they received from William,
Notre-Dame of Grestain and Saint-Léger des Préaux were not neglected
by their traditional aristocratic benefactors after 1066. The bulk of
the grants which contribed to Grestain's substantial endowment in
England came from Herluin de Conteville's son and successor, Count
Robert of Mortain, with support from Robert's father-in-law, Roger de
Montgomery. The pancarte states that Roger transferred to Grestain
the property in England which he had given to his daughter Matilda
(Robert of Mortain's wife) on her death in 1082." END OF QUOTE

The above material may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_2ydotlxKeUC&pg=PA137

The source given for this information is: D. Bates and V. Gazeau,
"L'abbaye de Grestain et la familly d'Herluin de Conteville," in
Annales de Normandie, 40 (1990): pp. 5-30, esp. p. 29.

Taken together with the earlier posted reference to the Durham obit
for Maud, Countess of Mortain, dated 21 September, it would appear
that Countess Maud died on or about 21 September 1082.

Do you descend from Maud de Montgomery, Countess of Mortain? If so,
perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from her
here on the newsgroup.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Peter Stewart]

On 30/09/2011 2:52 PM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The authors, David Bates and Anne Curry, in their book, England and
> Normandy in the Middle Ages (1994): 136-137 cite evidence that Maud de
> Montgomery, Countess of Mortain, died in 1082:
>
> pg. 136: "Lastly, in the pancarte of Grestain, the pincerna of the
> Countess Matilda of Mortain promised an annual sum of £15 Anglorum
> nummorum to the abbey at her death in 1082." END OF QUOTE.
>
> pg. 137: "In contrast to the treatment they received from William,
> Notre-Dame of Grestain and Saint-Léger des Préaux were not neglected
> by their traditional aristocratic benefactors after 1066. The bulk of
> the grants which contribed to Grestain's substantial endowment in
> England came from Herluin de Conteville's son and successor, Count
> Robert of Mortain, with support from Robert's father-in-law, Roger de
> Montgomery. The pancarte states that Roger transferred to Grestain
> the property in England which he had given to his daughter Matilda
> (Robert of Mortain's wife) on her death in 1082." END OF QUOTE

The "pancarte of Grestain" in question, a charter of William I, is known
only from 17th and 18th century copies and in some respects contradicts
a confirmation by Richard I of the same & later gifts to Grestain, dated
1189, which says that Mathilde herself gave property she had been given
by her father Roger de Montgomery ("Ex dono Mathildis, comitisse
Moreton. ... xxxii hidas terrae quae dederat ei pater suus Rogerus de
Monte Gomerico") rather than that he gave the same after her death
("Rogerius comes de Monegomerico dedit in Anglia Mathildi sue filie
comitisse Moritoniensi triginta et duas hydrias terre ... Post mortem
vero eius dedit supradictus comes Domino et sancte Marie Grestensi
easdem trigenta et duas hydrias").

The year 1082 quoted above from the assertion of one secondary source
citing another is somewhat misleading: dates are not given for specific
donations and, since the document of William I might have been written
as early as 24 June 1082, if Mathilde died on a 21 September for all
this proves it might have been in 1081 or before.

Peter Stewart

[J Cook]

On Sep 30, 12:52 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~

> Do you descend from Maud de Montgomery, Countess of Mortain?  If so,
> perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from her
> here on the newsgroup.

Here's one of many:
1. Maud de Montgomery m. Robert de Mortain
2. Emma de Mortain m. Guillaume IV de Toulouse
3. Philippa Mathilde de Toulouse m. William IX of Aquitaine
4. William X of Aquitaine m. Eleanor de Chatellerault
5. Elenore of Aquitaine m. King Henry II of England b.1133
6. King John of England b. 1166-7 m. Isabelle de Angouleme
7. King Henry III of England b. 1207 m. Eleanor de Provence
8. King Edward I of England b. 1239 m. Eleanor of Castile
9. Elzabeth of England m. Humphrey de Bohun
10, Margaret de Bohun b. 1311 m. Hugh de Courtenay
11. Elizabeth Courtenay m. Andrew Luttrell : Phillip Courtenay m.
Anne Wake
12. Hugh Luttrell m. Katherine Beaumont : John Courtenay m. Joan
Champernoun
13. John Luttrell m. Margeret Tuchet : Philip Courtenay m.
Elizabeth Hungerford
14. James Luttrell m. Elizabeth Courtenay
15. Hugh Luttrell m. Margaret Hill
16. Eleanor Luttrell m. Roger Yorke
17. Elizabeth Yorke m. Edmund Percival
18. Christian Percival m. Richard Lowle
19. Percival Lowle b. 1571 m. Rebecca
20. Richard Lowle b.1602 m. Margaret
21. Rebeckah Lowle b. 1641/2 m. John Hale
22. John Hale b. 1661 m. Sarah Jacques
23. Rebecca Hale b. 1683/4 m. Jonathan Poore
24. Mary Poore b. 1706 m. Benjamin Pierce, also a descendant via
Joseph Bolles
25. Rebecca Pierce b. 1726/7 m. Benjamin T. Sweatt
26. Abraham T. Sweatt b.1760 m. Priscilla Eastman
27. Judith C. Sweatt b. 1792 m. Peter A Cook, also a descendant via
both Thomas Dudley and Thomas Bradbury
33. me

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

D. Bates and V. Gazeau in their article, "L'abbaye de Grestain et la
familly d'Herluin de Conteville," published in Annales de Normandie,
40 (1990): state the following regarding the date of the pancarte of
Grestain and the death date of Maud de Montgomery, Countess of
Mortain:

pg. 10: "Since William crossed to England later in the year 1082 to
arrest his brother bishop Odo, it is reasonable to assign the final
version of the Grestain pancarte to the autumn of the year 1082." END
OF QUOTE.

pg. 23 "The pancarte allows us to date much more precisely the date of
countess Mathilda of Mortain's death."

In other words, Bates and Gazeau believe that Countess Maud died
shortly before autumn 1082, when the pancarte of Grestain was issued.
Her death on 21 September indicated by the Durham obit would fit that
scenario very well.

Maud de Montgomery was certainly dead before 1088, when her husband,
Count Robert, gave a charter in favor of St Mary's Priory, Mortain,
which charter was witnessed by his second wife, Almodis.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Joe ~

Thanks for sharing your line of descent from Maud de Montgomery (died
1082), wife of Robert, Count of Mortain [half-brother of King William
the Conqueror].

Below is one of my own descents from Maud de Montgomery, Countess of
Mortain.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

1. Maud de Montgomery, married Robert, Count of Mortain [half-brother
of King William the Conqueror].
2. Agnes of Mortain, married Andre de Vitré, seigneur of Vitré in
Brittany.
3. Hawise de Vitré, married Robert de Ferrers, 1st Earl of Derby.
4. Robert de Ferrers, 2nd Earl of Derby, married Margaret Peverel.
5. William de Ferrers, 3rd Earl of Derby, married Sibyl de Briouze.
6. William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby, married Agnes of Chester.
7. William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, married (1st) Sibyl
Marshal.
8. Maud de Ferrers, Vicomtesse of Rochechouart, married (2nd) William
de Forz (or de Vivonne), Knt., of Chewton, Somerset.
9. Joan de Vivonne, married (3rd) Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt., of Blaen
Llyfni (in Cathedine), Breconshire.
10. Peter Fitz Reynold, Knt., of Chewton, Somerset, married Ela
Martel.
11. Roger Martel, of Chewton, Somerset, married Joan (probably de
Lorty).
12. Henry Fitz Roger, Knt., of Chewton, Somerset, married Elizabeth de
Holand.
13. John Fitz Roger, of Chewton, Somerset, married Alice _____.
14. Elizabeth Fitz Roger, married (2nd) Richard Stukeley, Gent., of
Ridgewell, Essex.
15. Hugh Stukeley, Esq., of Affeton (in West Wolrington), Devon,
married Katherine Affeton.
16. Nicholas Stukeley, Esq., of Affeton (in West Wolrington), Devon,
married (1st) Thomasine Cockworthy.
17. Joan Stukeley, married Philip Baynard, Esq., of Lackham,
Wiltshire.
18. Robert Baynard, Esq., of Lackham, Wiltshire, married Anne Blake.
19. Thomas Baynard, Esq., of Barton Hundred, Gloucestershire and
Wanstrow, Somerset, married Elizabeth Barnes.
20. Henry Baynard, Gent., of Blagdon, Somerset, married Anne Hobbes.
21. Thomas Baynard, Gent., of Blagdon, Somerset, married Martha
Prickman.
22. Thomas Baynard, Esq., of Blagdon, Somerset, married (1st) Mary
Bennett.
23. John Baynard, Gent., of Talbot County, Maryland, married Elizabeth
Blackwell.

[Peter Stewart]

The pancarte of William I was issued before the arrest of his
half-brother Odo, bishop of Bayeux who subscribed it. Bates & Gazeau in
their 1990 article assumed that Odo was arrested in the autumn of 1082,
but this is not certain as it could have taken place early in the winter
of 1082/83.

This makes little difference to the point at issue, since my earlier
post was misleading and as it turns out the terminus post quem of 24
June 1082 is actually the last date on which Countess Mathilde of
Mortain, who had died before her father's donation recorded in the
pancarte, is known to have been living. On this date she subscribed
another charter of William I, confirming donations of Robert and herself
to Marmoutier ("Rotbertus frater eius [Willelmi] comes Morethoniensis et
Mathildis uxor eius dederunt Deo et sancto Martino Maioris Monasterii
... S. Rotberti comitis Moritonii. S. Mathildis comitisse ... Anno ab
incarnatione Domini MLXXXII ... Hec carta apud Oscellum firmata fuit die
Natalis sancti Baptiste Johannis.")

Consequently, from the available evidence, she died on 21 September
1082. The 1990 article of Bates & Gazeau, where this is not expounded,
is hardly sufficient proof of the fact.

Peter Stewart

[J.C.B.Sharp]

In article
<480994b5-8580-42b4...@m15g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:

> *From:* Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
> *Date:* Fri, 30 Sep 2011 06:05:54 -0700 (PDT)

There is not much doubt about the year. Maud was at Oissel (canton
Sotteville-les-Rouen) on 24 June 1082 when she witnessed charters to the
Abbey of Saint-Martin Marmoutier (Bates nos 204,205).

She had died before the Grestain charter which has been dated to Autumn
1082 (Bates no 158).

Bates, David, Regesta Regum Anglo-Normanorum, 1998.

J.C.B.Sharp
London

[Chuck Owens]

> Do you descend from Maud de Montgomery, Countess of Mortain?  If so,
> perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from her
> here on the newsgroup.
>
> Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Here's one of my many descents from her:
1. Maud de Montgomery m. Robert, Comte de Mortain
2. Emma de Mortain m. William IV de Toulouse
3. Philippa "Matilda" of Toulouse m. William VII of Poitou (IX of
Aquitaine)
4. William VIII of Poitou (X of Aquitaine) m. Eleanor de
Chattellerault
5. Eleanor de Poitou Duchess of Aquitaine m. Henry II, King of England
6. John, King of England m. Isabella d'Angoulême
7. Henry III, King of England m. Eleanor of Provence
8. Edward I, King of England m. Eleanor of Castile
9. Edward II, King of England m. Isabella of France
10. Edward III, King of England m. Philippa of Hainaut
11. John of Gaunt m. Catherine Roet
12. John Beaufort m. Margaret de Holand
13. Joan Beaufort, Queen Dowager of Scotland m. James Stewart, "Black
Knight of Lorn"
14. John Stewart m. Margaret Douglas
15. Elizabeth Stewart m. Andrew Gray
16. Gilbert Gray m. Egidia Mercer
17. Patrick Gray m. Marion Ogilvy
18. Isobel Gray m. Alexander Falconer
19. Alexander Falconer m. Agnes Carnegie
20. John Falconer m. Sibilla Ogilvy (almost certain descent from James
IV of Scotland)
21. David Falconer m. Margaret Molleson
22. Alexander Falconer (immigrant from Scotland to USA) m. Susannah
Duvall
23. Samuel Falconer m. Elizabeth Newkirk
24. Eleanor Falconer m. Thomas Ramsay
25. Allen Ramsay m. Mary Thornborough
26. Elizabeth Ramsay m. William Thompson
27. John William Thompson m. Lenora "Nora" Belle Chancey
28. William Cecil Thompson m. Eleanor Viola Diggs
31. me - Chuck Owens

[John]

On Oct 4, 8:27 pm, Chuck Owens <cancerte...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Here's one of my many descents from her:

> 19. Alexander Falconer m. Agnes Carnegie
> 20. John Falconer m. Sibilla Ogilvy (almost certain descent from James
> IV of Scotland)

What's the basis for her "almost certain descent" from James IV? The
best I've seen for her is that her "origin is unknown" but she
"appears to have been rather closely related to James, 1st Earl of
Airlie" (Paul McKee Gifford, "Falconer of Halkerton", 1997 -
available online at the BYU library website).

[Chuck Owens]

Please see Paul Gifford's post on November 14, 2010 where much of the
evidence for Sibilla Ogilvy's descent from James IV is presented.

Chuck

[John]

Thanks for pointing out this post - I must have missed it when it
first showed up.