Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
The...@aol.com
Dear Brad, Will, Tim, Alex, et al.,
While in the course of reviewing notes and records
concerning the existing Hastings thread, I came upon an
interesting matter concerning an earlier Hastings generation
that appears to tie a few threads together.
Among several details in the Hastings pedigree in the 1563
Visitation (of Yorkshire) record, there is included the
following for a daughter of Henry de Hastings (d. bef 5 Mar
1268/9) and his wife Joan de Cantilupo:
' Alda wyff fyrst to John ap Meredyth & after to
Robert de Champayne, Knight. ' [1]
To date, I had not researched these individuals further,
other than suggesting a possible connection between this 'Sir
Robert de Champayne' and the 'Maud de Campaign' who married
into the Hiltons of Swine and Winestead. Others have
connected Ada de Hastings to one Rhys 'Mechyll', indicating
that the name John ap Meredyth in the Visitation pedigree is
erroneous, in part or in whole. It is evident that this
was in fact Rhys 'Mechyll' ap Maredudd, lord (or 'prince' as
you may prefer) of Dryslwyn, who was executed in 1292.
I have found the record of a dispensation granted by Pope
Martin IV, in a letter to Thomas, Bishop of St. Davids, dated
at Orvieto on 10 December 1283. This dispensation was required
because Rhys ap Maredudd and Ada de Hastings were related in
the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity [2].
Ada de Hastings had no Welsh ancestor within 4 generations
(up to her great-great grandparents), so it is evident that
there is a English (or Anglo-Norman) or other non-Welsh
ancestor of Rhys ap Maredudd. One possibility that I considered
was Maud de Clare, widow of William de Braose (d. 1210) and wife
(2ndly) of Rhys Gryg. I am not aware of any issue of this
marriage of Rhys Gryg, but more importantly, the de Braose
relationship this would create would be too distant (on the
side of Ada de Hastings, anyway) to create a need for a
dispensation.
The one other possibility was that Maredudd ap Rhys was
the son of Rhys 'Mechyll' (d. 1244) by Maud de Braose, and
that Maud was the daughter of Reginald de Braose (d. ca. 1228)
by Grace de Briwere. This identification would yield the
relationship of 3rd & 4th degrees stipulated in the
dispensation, as follows:
Reginald de Braose = 1) Grace de Briwere
___________________________I______________
I I
William de = Eva le Rhys 'Mechyll' = Maud de
Braose I Marshal d. 1244 I Braose
exe. 1230 I I
I I
William de = Eve de Maredudd ap Rhys
Cantilupo I Braose d. aft 1270
d. 1254 I I
I I
I I
Joan de = Henry de I
Cantilupo I Hastings I
d. bef June 1271 I d. 1268 I
I________ ________I
I I
Ada de = Rhys 'Mechyll'
Hastings ap Maredudd
This serves to correct the identification of Maredudd
ap Rhys, father of Rhys 'Mechyll' (ex. 1292) as a son, not of
Rhys Gryg ap Rhys (ap Gruffydd, aka 'the Lord Rhys'), but of
Rhys 'Mechyll' ap Rhys (d. 1244) by his wife Maud de Braose.
Further, this serves to confirm that this Maud de Braose was
a daughter of Reginald de Braose, as previously suggested
(strongly and otherwise) by Doug Thompson and others [3].
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Visitation of Yorkshire, HSP 16:154.
[2] A. W. Haddan and William Stubbs, eds., Councils and
Ecclesiastical Documents relating to Great Britain
and Ireland (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1869), I:551-2.
The text reads, in part,
' Martinus Episcopus servus servorum Dei, venerabili fratri
[Thomae] Episcopo Men., salutem et Apostolicam benedictionem.
Quantum cum Deo possimus hijs libenter annuimus, per quae
dissidentes ad pacis solatium reducantur. Ex parte siquidem
nobilis viri Resi Mereduci et nobilis mulieris Audae de
Hastinges tuae dyocesis fuit propositum coram nobis, quod
ex inimicitiis et guerris, dudum inter ejusdem R. ex parte
una et ipsius A. progenitores ex altera suscitatis, et
rerum et personarum pericula plurima sunt secuta, et adhuc
durant odia inter superstites eorundem; unde dicti R. et
A., sperantes per matrimonialem communicationem ipsorum
posse super praemissis plene reconciliationis commoda
provenire, desiderant invicem propter hoc matrimonialiter
copulari. Sed quia dicti Resus et Auda tertio ex una
parte et quarto ex altera consanguinitatis gradu ad
invicem se contingunt,..... '
[3] Cf. Doug Thompson, <Briouze consanguinity problem>, SGM,
19 Oct 2002.
Douglas Richardson
The family history of Sir Rhys ap Maredudd, husband of Ada de Hastings,
is discussed at some length by Bridgeman in his interesting work,
History of the Princes of South Wales (1876). Sir Rhys and his wife,
Ada, needed a dispensation to marry because they had a common descent
from Sir William Marshal (died 1219), 4th Earl of Pembroke, as
indicated below:
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. _____ (unidentified child).
3. _____ [niece of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke], married
1234/1241 Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, of Drosslwyn and Llandovery Castles,
he died 22 July 1271. Reference: Bridgeman, History of the Princes of
South Wales (1876): 111-150, 174-179, 185-202.
4. Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt., son and heir. He married by papal
dispensation dated 10 Dec. 1283 (they being related in the 3rd and 4th
degrees of kindred) Ada de Hastings (see below). He was tried at York
soon after Michaelmas 1291, and there cruelly executed. His wife, Ada,
was dead sometime before 1308-9. References: Bridgeman, History of
the Princes of South Wales (1876): 185-202. Papal Regs.: Letters 1
(1893): 470.
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. Eve Marshal, married William de Brewes.
3. Eve de Brewes, married William de Cantelowe.
4. Joan de Cantelowe, married Henry de Hastings.
5. Ada de Hastings, married Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt. (see above).
Best always, Douglas Richardson
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for your reply, and the (apparent) need for
revision to the relationship between Rhys and Ada as per my prior post.
Bridgeman's indication of a relationship between Maredudd ap
Rhys and an unidentified granddaughter of William Marshal is most
interesting. How is this relationship identified by Bridgeman? It
sounds like a derivation from a source identifying her as 'neptis' to
Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke. There are certain sisters (Sibyl
and Joan, for two) who could not have been the mother of such a child.
Cheers,
John
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
The ODNB identifies (or did, when I last looked) the wife of Maredudd
ap Rhys Gryg as Isabel, daughter of the William Marshal who d.1231-
obviously, she must have been illegitimate; *if* this was the case. The
hyperlink from Maredudd's entry leads to the younger Marshal, but ISTR
that there was no mention in the latter's biography of this alleged
daughter. Possibly they used a Welsh genealogy as the source, as it
coincides with Bartrum's version, where Maredudd is married to Isabel,
daughter of 'William Marshal II'.
-Matthew
The...@aol.com
Dear Doug, Matthew (and Brad, Will, Tim, Alex, et al.),
Thanks for your replies, and details from those sources
concerning Rhys Mechyll and his near relations (alleged and
otherwise). It does appear that the Marshal relationship is the
source of the consanguinity between Rhys Mechyll and Ada de
Hastings: certainly, the Brut y Tywysogion makes it apparent
that Maredudd, father of Rhys Mechyll, was the son of Rhys Gryg.
The entry for 1271, the year of Maredudd's death, states as
follows:
' In this year Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, a brave, powerful man,
died in his own castle at dryslwyn; and his body was
honourably buried in the great Church at Whitland on the
steps in front of the altar. And Rhys Ieuanc ap Rhys
Mechyll died in his castle at Dinefwr; and he was buried in
the monastery of Talley. '[1]
I have amended the previously posted chart to reflect the
relationship between these two, showing the alleged illegitimate
connection from William Marshal 'II' to Rhys Mechyll with a dotted
line (......) :
William Marshal = Eve (Aoife)
E of Pembroke I 'of Leinster'
d. 1219 I
________I______
I I
William de = Eva William ~ NN (not
Braose I Marshal Marshal 'II' : married)
exe. 1230 I E of Pembroke :....
I d. 1231 :
I :
William de = Eve de Maredudd ap Rhys = NN
Cantilupo I Braose d. aft 1270 I (illegitimate)
d. 1254 I I
I I
I I
Joan de = Henry de I
Cantilupo I Hastings I
d. bef June 1271 I d. 1268 I
I________ _______I
I I
Ada de = Rhys 'Mechyll'
Hastings ap Maredudd
I will advise should I note any primary source concerning the
illegitimate issue of William Marshall 'II'. Meanwhile, again my
thanks for this correction.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] The Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur
Unfortunately, the excellent website for the Tywysogion y Brut
(www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarnant/hanes/chronicle) is
no longer online. The text of the chronicle (any
relevant footnotes or references otherwise seem abandoned) can
be found (in part) at the following:
http://bestdiplomas.hit.bg/archive-hist/ystrad.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~agronosky/ars_magica/spiritus_draconis/ystrad_fflur.t
xt
Brut y Tywysogion can be found, courtesy of Googlebooks, at
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1402196067&id=bzszlo-KjYgC&pg=RA5-PR42&l
pg=RA5-PR42&dq=Brut+y+Tywysogion+chronicle+of+the+princes&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=Mu
4NLjfHs1qj5XtOwWLDkD6msmo
* John P. Ravilious
Carl Boyer
More detail is in my Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans.
Carl Boyer
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
http://bestdiplomas.hit.bg/archive-hist/ystrad.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~agronosky/ars_magica/spiritus_draconis/ystrad_fflur.t
xt
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1402196067&id=bzszlo-KjYgC&pg=RA5-PR42&l
pg=RA5-PR42&dq=Brut+y+Tywysogion+chronicle+of+the+princes&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=Mu
4NLjfHs1qj5XtOwWLDkD6msmo
* John P. Ravilious
---------------------------------
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taf
> The ODNB identifies (or did, when I last looked) the wife of Maredudd
> ap Rhys Gryg as Isabel, daughter of the William Marshal who d.1231-
> obviously, she must have been illegitimate; *if* this was the case. The
> hyperlink from Maredudd's entry leads to the younger Marshal, but ISTR
> that there was no mention in the latter's biography of this alleged
> daughter. Possibly they used a Welsh genealogy as the source, as it
> coincides with Bartrum's version, where Maredudd is married to Isabel,
> daughter of 'William Marshal II'.
I would be a little careful of this unless a specific source can be
identified. In a discussion months back, we learned that the same
source identifies Fulk de Sandford as illegitimate son of either Fulk
Basset or Geoffrey Basset (otherwise childless), simply because he was
nephew of Phillip Basset and they were his brothers, completely
ignoring a possible route through Phillip's sisters, one of whom
married a Sandford. It may be nothing more than a confused guess.
Todd
The...@aol.com
Dear Carl,
Thanks for your response to my earlier posts.
I do in fact (now) show Rhys 'Mechyll' ap Rhys (d. 1244) and Maredudd ap
Rhys as brothers, as opposed to father and son (as in my original post).
Where the confusion now comes from is the name 'Mechyll' being assigned
(apparently in error?) to Rhys ap Maredudd, the husband of Ada de Hastings. I
will see what my notes show as the source for the name, but this is
apparently the result of some earlier conflation with his uncle Rhys ap Rhys.
I do not have a copy of your work on the Medieval Welsh ancestors, but
will look into same (possibly the LOC has a copy) as soon as possible.
Cheers,
John
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
taf wrote:
> [inappropriate cross-posting removed]
Apologies, I hadn't noticed that.
Quite, Bartrum has numerous errors, as (unfortunately) does ODNB, as
we've seen in many instances. I was just speculating that ODNB may have
used, as the source of its information, one of the Welsh pedigrees
consulted by Bartrum; which may well be of a later date, and/or
misinterpreted, as you say. The two accounts coincide, but they don't
provide support for one another- as John stated, there is still a need
for primary evidence.
-Matthew
Jwc...@aol.com
I have Eva Marshal the wife of William de Braiose as the
daughter of William Marshal, 3rd Earl of Pembroke by Isabel de Clare, daughter
of Richard de Clare Strongbow, 2nd Earl of Pembroke by Aoife (Eva) of Leinster
(see CP I: 22, IV: 670 chart 3, V: 736, IX: 590, X: 352-364 X : 36, note e
Daughter of William Braiose and Eva Marshal, Eva de Braiose married William de
Cantelou CP II : 129
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
WJho...@aol.com
de Hastings" who had married John Strathbogie, 7th Earl of Atholl
Their son David of Strathbogie, 8th Earl of Atholl was born sometime between
1220/50 so I suppose this Ada I have must be a daughter of Henry Hastings by
his wife Ada of Huntingdon ? The chronology seems to allow it.
Will
The...@aol.com
This Ada de Hastings was of a different line, and not the daughter (or
near relation as far as I know) of Ada de Huntingdon. Following is a brief
pedigree showing her Hastings ancestry, as well as her mother Forbflaith (aka
'Forflissa'), countess of Athol suo jure.
Cheers,
John
1 John de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 25 Jul 1210[1]
of Dun
held lands in the Mearns, ca 1180
'Johanne de Hastinges', witness to charter of King William
'the Lion', 16 Oct 1198 of lands in Allardyce, the Mearns[2]
his son David in the service of King John, 1210:
payment received from King John of England, 5 July 1210:
' 476. Prest made to knights at the meadow under a certain water
called Struthe, in presence of W. earl of Salisbury and R. de
Mariscis. [Among the names are]:- William le Chen, 20s.; David
de Hastinges, 40s. on behalf of John his father; Eustace de
Ballol, 20s. ' [Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 6.]
payment received from King John of England, 25 July 1210:
' 477. Prests to knights at Carrickfergus the day of St. James
the Apostle. Robert de Ros, 40 marks; the Earl of Winchester,
50 marks; Earl David, 30 marks, delivered to Bartholomew de
Mortuo mari; David de Hastinges, 4 marks, for John his father;
Eustace de Vescy, 30 marks; Henry son of Earl David, 2 marks
(and many others). ' [Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 5]
Children: Sir David (-<1248)
1.1 Sir David de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 3 Jul 1248[3],[4]
Earl of Athol de jure uxoris[5]
a knight in the service of King John
payment received from King John of England, 5 July 1210
[Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 6.]
payment received from King John of England,
25 July 1210 [Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 5]
'D[ominus]. David Hastinges', witness to charter of Morgund
fitz Albe to his son Michael (text in charter of King James
I, 2 Aug 1428 - RMS p. 21, No. 110[6]]
' Dauid de Hasting Comes Atholie', gave a charter to Coupar
priory [with the consent of his wife] confirming the gift of
Tolach to the priory, dated 1244x1254 [Coupar I:115-6, No. L[4]]
' Domini David de Hasting, Comitis Atholiae, et Forflisae sponsae
suae, Comitissae Atholiae ', named in grant of Ness, physician to
the King, of the lands of Dunfallandy to Coupar priory, dated
1242-1244, ' which the aforesaid Lord David, Earl of Athol, and
Countess Forflissa gave to me for my service and
homage ' [" quam predictus Dominus David, Comes Atholiae,
et Forflissa Comitissa mihi dederunt pro servitio meo et
homagio..." - Banff Charters pp. 7-8, No. 2[3]]
' Fernlleth, Comitisse Atholie ', confirmed the grant by Ness of
the lands of Dunfallandy to Coupar priory, ' for the salvation of
my soul and for the soul of Lord David de Hastings my late lord,
Earl of Athol ' ["pro salute anime mee et pro anima Domini David
de Hastings quondam viri mei, Comitis Atholie"], witnessed by
Lord Gilbert de Hay, Lord Aymer de Maxwell [Domino Aymero de
Machuswell], dated 1244-1247 but before 3 July 1248 [date of
confirmation by King Alexander II] - Banff Charters pp. 8-9,
No. 3[3]]
Spouse: Forbflaith of Athol
Death: aft 1254[5]
Father: Henry, Earl of Athol (-<1211)
Mother: Margaret
Children: Ada
1.1.1 Ada of Athol
----------------------------------------
Occ: Countess of Athol suo jure[5]
Spouse: John of Strathbogie
Father: David of Strathbogie
Children: David (-1270)
1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. "BARONS OF ALLARDICE," John Cargile,
http://www.allardice.org/barons/appendix4.htm
cites Source: Regesta Regum Scottorum, I: 389-390
(William I).
3. "Banff charters, A.D. 1232-1703," London: Oxford University Press,
H. Milford, 1915, courtesy Genealogy.com.
4. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish History
Society, 1947.
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
6. James Balfour Paul, ed., "Registrum Magni Sigilli Regum
Scotorum," The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland,
Edinburgh: H. M. General Register House, 1882 [A.D. 1424-1513].
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Quite, Bartrum has numerous errors, as (unfortunately) does ODNB, as
> we've seen in many instances. I was just speculating that ODNB may
> have used, as the source of its information, one of the Welsh
> pedigrees consulted by Bartrum; which may well be of a later date,
> and/or misinterpreted, as you say. The two accounts coincide, but they
> don't provide support for one another- as John stated, there is still
> a need for primary evidence.
ODNB will accept corrections, indeed that have accepted a couple of
mine, so it is worthwhile getting some evidence together and passing it
on to them.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 9/2/2006 5:01:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, t...@powys.org
writes:
ODNB will accept corrections, indeed that have accepted a couple of
mine, so it is worthwhile getting some evidence together and passing it
on to them.
On this score, I recently got a message saying they had gone through my
corrections site, and recorded all the corrections and they would be in the next
update. Very interesting.
Will Johnson