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C.P. Addition: New death date for Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Meulan and Leicester
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Douglas Richardson
Oct 24, 2011, 2:15:32 PM10/24/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
There are good accounts of Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois, the Ur-
Mother of the newsgroup, in Complete Peerage, 7 (1929): 523-526 (sub
Leicester) and 12(1) (1953): 495-496 (sub Surrey). Isabel was
successively wife of Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan in the French
Vexin (died 5 June 1118), and William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surrey
(died probably 11 May 1138). She had issue by both of her marriages.
Her descendants are legion.
In the Leicester account in C.P., pg. 526, footnote d, the following
information is given regarding the death date of Isabel de Vermandois:
"Her obit was observed at St. Nicaise-de-Meulan on 17 Feb, (H.F.,
Quarto, Obituaires de la Prov. de Sens, vol. iii, p. 238 E.)." END OF
QUOTE.
In the Surrey account in C.P., pg. 496, and footnote h, the following
information is given regarding her death date:
"She died probably before July 1147 .... [She died] before her son,
William [de Warenne], 3rd Earl [of Surrey], went on crusade in June
1147; see Early Yorkshire Charters, vol. viii, pp. 9, 91. On 17 Feb.,
according to the obituary of St, Nicaise (Recueil des Chartes de Saint-
Nicaise-de-Meulan, ed. Houth, p. 192). END OF QUOTE.
The obit for Countess Isabel recorded at the Priory of Saint-Nicaise
de Meulan is confirmed by Molinier, Obituaires de la Province de Sens,
2 (1906): 238, which gives the following:
Obituaire of Prieuré de Saint-Nicaise de Meulan
Isabel, comitissa Mellenti, XIIIo kal. Martii [17 February]. END
OF QUOTE.
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TvUoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238
Recently, however, I encountered yet another obit for Isabel de
Vermandois dated 13 February recorded in the obituaire of Longpont
Priory, which item was published in Molinier, Obituaires de la
Province de Sens 1(1) (Recueil des Historiens de la France, Obituaires
1) (1902): 521:
Prieuré de Longpont
“idus Februarius [13 February] [obit.] Isabel, comitissa de Garenna
[1199]. END OF QUOTE..
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=agMjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA521
The modern editor, Molinier, has assigned a death date of 1199 for
Isabel, Countess of Warenne, which is a manifest error. The only
other Isabel, Count of Warenne, in this time period was Isabel de
Vermandois' own granddaughter, Isabel de Warrenne, who was living
April 1203, but probably died soon afterwards, possibly 12 July 1203
[see Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 500 (sub Surrey)].
That the obit for Isabel, Countess of Warenne, dated 13 February at
Longpont Priory is in fact for Isabel de Vermandois (and not that of
her granddaughter) is confirmed by the inclusion of another obit in
the same obituary at Longpont Priory for Isabel de Vermandois' second
husband, William de Warenne:
Source: Molinier, Obituaires de la Province de Sens 1(1) (Recueil des
Historiens de la France, Obituaires 1) (1902): 524:
Prieuré de Longpont:
v. idus. Maius. [11 May] [obit.] Guillermus, comes de Garenna. END
OF QUOTE.
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=agMjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA524
I'm not certain why this second obit for Isabel de Vermandois was
overlooked by Complete Peerage, but it evidently has been previously
noticed. I found the following statement in Walker, Wakefield: Its
History and People (1934): 52:
“Countess Isabel died February 13th, 1131, and the Earl followed her
seven years later, on May 11th, 1138. Both were buried in the chapter
house of Lewes priory.”). END OF QUOTE.
Wakefield and other sources give 1131 as the death year for Isabel de
Vermandois which date may be correct. Whatever the year, it would
appear that Isabel de Vermandois died on 13 (or 17) February, as
indicated by the records cited above.
Perhaps someone on the newsgroup can address the evidence which
indicates the year, 1131, as the year of death for Isabel de
Vermandois.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
There are good accounts of Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois, the Ur-
Mother of the newsgroup, in Complete Peerage, 7 (1929): 523-526 (sub
Leicester) and 12(1) (1953): 495-496 (sub Surrey). Isabel was
successively wife of Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan in the French
Vexin (died 5 June 1118), and William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surrey
(died probably 11 May 1138). She had issue by both of her marriages.
Her descendants are legion.
In the Leicester account in C.P., pg. 526, footnote d, the following
information is given regarding the death date of Isabel de Vermandois:
"Her obit was observed at St. Nicaise-de-Meulan on 17 Feb, (H.F.,
Quarto, Obituaires de la Prov. de Sens, vol. iii, p. 238 E.)." END OF
QUOTE.
In the Surrey account in C.P., pg. 496, and footnote h, the following
information is given regarding her death date:
"She died probably before July 1147 .... [She died] before her son,
William [de Warenne], 3rd Earl [of Surrey], went on crusade in June
1147; see Early Yorkshire Charters, vol. viii, pp. 9, 91. On 17 Feb.,
according to the obituary of St, Nicaise (Recueil des Chartes de Saint-
Nicaise-de-Meulan, ed. Houth, p. 192). END OF QUOTE.
The obit for Countess Isabel recorded at the Priory of Saint-Nicaise
de Meulan is confirmed by Molinier, Obituaires de la Province de Sens,
2 (1906): 238, which gives the following:
Obituaire of Prieuré de Saint-Nicaise de Meulan
Isabel, comitissa Mellenti, XIIIo kal. Martii [17 February]. END
OF QUOTE.
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TvUoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238
Recently, however, I encountered yet another obit for Isabel de
Vermandois dated 13 February recorded in the obituaire of Longpont
Priory, which item was published in Molinier, Obituaires de la
Province de Sens 1(1) (Recueil des Historiens de la France, Obituaires
1) (1902): 521:
Prieuré de Longpont
“idus Februarius [13 February] [obit.] Isabel, comitissa de Garenna
[1199]. END OF QUOTE..
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=agMjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA521
The modern editor, Molinier, has assigned a death date of 1199 for
Isabel, Countess of Warenne, which is a manifest error. The only
other Isabel, Count of Warenne, in this time period was Isabel de
Vermandois' own granddaughter, Isabel de Warrenne, who was living
April 1203, but probably died soon afterwards, possibly 12 July 1203
[see Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 500 (sub Surrey)].
That the obit for Isabel, Countess of Warenne, dated 13 February at
Longpont Priory is in fact for Isabel de Vermandois (and not that of
her granddaughter) is confirmed by the inclusion of another obit in
the same obituary at Longpont Priory for Isabel de Vermandois' second
husband, William de Warenne:
Source: Molinier, Obituaires de la Province de Sens 1(1) (Recueil des
Historiens de la France, Obituaires 1) (1902): 524:
Prieuré de Longpont:
v. idus. Maius. [11 May] [obit.] Guillermus, comes de Garenna. END
OF QUOTE.
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=agMjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA524
I'm not certain why this second obit for Isabel de Vermandois was
overlooked by Complete Peerage, but it evidently has been previously
noticed. I found the following statement in Walker, Wakefield: Its
History and People (1934): 52:
“Countess Isabel died February 13th, 1131, and the Earl followed her
seven years later, on May 11th, 1138. Both were buried in the chapter
house of Lewes priory.”). END OF QUOTE.
Wakefield and other sources give 1131 as the death year for Isabel de
Vermandois which date may be correct. Whatever the year, it would
appear that Isabel de Vermandois died on 13 (or 17) February, as
indicated by the records cited above.
Perhaps someone on the newsgroup can address the evidence which
indicates the year, 1131, as the year of death for Isabel de
Vermandois.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
Oct 24, 2011, 11:26:46 PM10/24/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my post earlier today, I now have a few bits of
information to add regarding the death date of Isabel (or Elizabeth)
de Vermandois, Countess of Meulan and Surrey.
There is an ancient list of the various Earls and Countesses of Surrey
(or Warenne) which is found in the Chartulary of Lewes Priory. A copy
of this list was published in 1934 in L.F. Salzman, editor, The
Chartulary of the Priory of St. Pancras of Lewes, Pt. 2 (Sussex Record
Society 40) (1934), pp. 15-19. The list has no date but from the
internal evidence was created sometime shortly after 1439. The earls
and countesses are list in their respective order and death dates are
provided for all of them.
Regarding Isabel de Vermandois, the following information is provided:
"Lady Isabel the second Countess of Surrey wife of William the second
died 13 February 1131 and the 7th year before her husband. And she
lies [blank]." END OF QUOTE
This list is obviously the source of the statement in Walker,
Wakefield: Its History and People (1934): 52 that Countess Isabel
obit dated 13 February for Countess Isabel as I earlier thought. The
information from the list was ignored by Complete Peerage in its
Surrey account.
Following the publication of the list of Earls and Countesses found in
the Lewes Priory Chartulary, the matter of the death date of Isabel de
Vermandois was considered by Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949):
9. He provides the following information:
"She [Isabel] survived her second husband, William de Warenne; and
after his death, with the consent of her son the third earl, [she]
gave the church of Dorking to Lewes Priory. The terms of a charter
issued by the third earl suggest that she died in his lifetime." END
OF QUOTE
Mr. Clay adds more information in footnote 9 on the same page:
"In one of the narrative accounts in the same [i.e., Lewes Chartulary]
it is stated that she [Isabel] died 13 Feb. 1131 in the seventh year
before her husband. More trustworthy evidence from another source
shows that her obit was observed on 17 Feb. (Complete Peerage, new
ed., vii, 526n); and the year 1131 is clearly wrong."
While Clay was obviously aware of the list of Earls and Countesses in
the Lewes Chartulary which stated that Countess Isabel died 13 Feb.
1131, he believed a "more trustworthy" date for Countess Isabel's
death was 17 February. In so doing, he relied on the limited
information found in Complete Peerage. As we have already seen,
Complete Peerage missed the obit for Countess Isabel in the obituaire
of the Prieuré of Longpont which gave the same date, 13 February, for
the Countess' death as the Lewes Chartulary list.
Clay's comment aside, the date of 13 February would have to be
considered more trustworthy as this date is provided by BOTH the Lewes
Chartulary and the obit from the Prieuré of Longpont. The alternative
date of 17 February should still be treated as possible, however.
Insofar as the death year of Countess Isabel is concerned, Mr. Clay is
correct that the year 1131 is clearly wrong. There is a charter which
proves that Countess Isabel survived her 2nd husband, William de
Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surrey. This charter was published in Salzman,
ed., The Chartulary of the Priory of St. Pancras of Lewes, Part 1
(Sussex Record Society 38) (1932): 29. This charter is dated c.1138
and was issued by Countess Isabel and her son, William de Warenne, 3rd
Earl of Surrey. It reads as follows:
"I William Earl Warenn' have given and granted to the monks of St.
Pancras three hides of land in Kyngeston for the soul of my father for
the performance of his anniversary. And I Countess Isabel his mother,
with the consent of my son the Earl, have given them the church of
Doreking' with all its appurtenances for the soul of my lord the
Earl. And moreover I have given and granted to them the tithe of the
revenues (denariorum) of the same manor. Of this gift are witnesses,
&c." END OF QUOTE.
In conclusion, it appears that Isabel de Vermandois was living c.1138,
and that she died 13 (or 17) February, sometime before June 1147, when
her son, William, 3rd Earl, left on crusade.
Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
As a followup to my post earlier today, I now have a few bits of
information to add regarding the death date of Isabel (or Elizabeth)
de Vermandois, Countess of Meulan and Surrey.
There is an ancient list of the various Earls and Countesses of Surrey
(or Warenne) which is found in the Chartulary of Lewes Priory. A copy
of this list was published in 1934 in L.F. Salzman, editor, The
Chartulary of the Priory of St. Pancras of Lewes, Pt. 2 (Sussex Record
Society 40) (1934), pp. 15-19. The list has no date but from the
internal evidence was created sometime shortly after 1439. The earls
and countesses are list in their respective order and death dates are
provided for all of them.
Regarding Isabel de Vermandois, the following information is provided:
"Lady Isabel the second Countess of Surrey wife of William the second
died 13 February 1131 and the 7th year before her husband. And she
lies [blank]." END OF QUOTE
This list is obviously the source of the statement in Walker,
Wakefield: Its History and People (1934): 52 that Countess Isabel
"died February 13th, 1131, and the Earl followed her seven years
later, on May 11th, 1138." Walker had apparently not seen the French
obit dated 13 February for Countess Isabel as I earlier thought. The
information from the list was ignored by Complete Peerage in its
Surrey account.
Following the publication of the list of Earls and Countesses found in
the Lewes Priory Chartulary, the matter of the death date of Isabel de
Vermandois was considered by Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949):
9. He provides the following information:
"She [Isabel] survived her second husband, William de Warenne; and
after his death, with the consent of her son the third earl, [she]
gave the church of Dorking to Lewes Priory. The terms of a charter
issued by the third earl suggest that she died in his lifetime." END
OF QUOTE
Mr. Clay adds more information in footnote 9 on the same page:
"In one of the narrative accounts in the same [i.e., Lewes Chartulary]
it is stated that she [Isabel] died 13 Feb. 1131 in the seventh year
before her husband. More trustworthy evidence from another source
shows that her obit was observed on 17 Feb. (Complete Peerage, new
ed., vii, 526n); and the year 1131 is clearly wrong."
While Clay was obviously aware of the list of Earls and Countesses in
the Lewes Chartulary which stated that Countess Isabel died 13 Feb.
1131, he believed a "more trustworthy" date for Countess Isabel's
death was 17 February. In so doing, he relied on the limited
information found in Complete Peerage. As we have already seen,
Complete Peerage missed the obit for Countess Isabel in the obituaire
of the Prieuré of Longpont which gave the same date, 13 February, for
the Countess' death as the Lewes Chartulary list.
Clay's comment aside, the date of 13 February would have to be
considered more trustworthy as this date is provided by BOTH the Lewes
Chartulary and the obit from the Prieuré of Longpont. The alternative
date of 17 February should still be treated as possible, however.
Insofar as the death year of Countess Isabel is concerned, Mr. Clay is
correct that the year 1131 is clearly wrong. There is a charter which
proves that Countess Isabel survived her 2nd husband, William de
Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surrey. This charter was published in Salzman,
ed., The Chartulary of the Priory of St. Pancras of Lewes, Part 1
(Sussex Record Society 38) (1932): 29. This charter is dated c.1138
and was issued by Countess Isabel and her son, William de Warenne, 3rd
Earl of Surrey. It reads as follows:
"I William Earl Warenn' have given and granted to the monks of St.
Pancras three hides of land in Kyngeston for the soul of my father for
the performance of his anniversary. And I Countess Isabel his mother,
with the consent of my son the Earl, have given them the church of
Doreking' with all its appurtenances for the soul of my lord the
Earl. And moreover I have given and granted to them the tithe of the
revenues (denariorum) of the same manor. Of this gift are witnesses,
&c." END OF QUOTE.
In conclusion, it appears that Isabel de Vermandois was living c.1138,
and that she died 13 (or 17) February, sometime before June 1147, when
her son, William, 3rd Earl, left on crusade.
Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
John Watson
Oct 25, 2011, 6:49:55 PM10/25/11
to
On Oct 25, 10:26 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
According to my genealogy software I have 152 lines of descent from
Isabel de Vermandois. Do you need them all?
Regards,
John
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Dear Douglas,
> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
According to my genealogy software I have 152 lines of descent from
Isabel de Vermandois. Do you need them all?
Regards,
John
David Teague
Oct 25, 2011, 6:55:16 PM10/25/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Since this date is the 596th anniversary of the Battle of Agincourt (leaving out the vexatious question of Julian-Gregorian calendar conversion), I pose a general question: who among us had ancestors at Agincourt that fateful morning?
Thanks,
David Teague
J Cook
Oct 25, 2011, 7:20:05 PM10/25/11
to
On Oct 25, 6:49 pm, John Watson <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to my genealogy software I have 152 lines of descent from
> Isabel de Vermandois. Do you need them all?
You have me beat, I have only traced 115 so far..
> According to my genealogy software I have 152 lines of descent from
> Isabel de Vermandois. Do you need them all?
Joe C
Message has been deleted
Steve Higley
Oct 25, 2011, 7:36:42 PM10/25/11
to davt...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Edmund de FerrersJohn HollandPeter LeghJohn Savage
Humphrey Stafford Perhaps in four years, there will be more Cheers Steve Higley
> From: davt...@hotmail.com
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: "This day is called the feast of Crispian. . ."
> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:55:16 +0000
>
>
> Since this date is the 596th anniversary of the Battle of Agincourt (leaving out the vexatious question of Julian-Gregorian calendar conversion), I pose a general question: who among us had ancestors at Agincourt that fateful morning?
> Thanks,
> David Teague
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Since this date is the 596th anniversary of the Battle of Agincourt (leaving out the vexatious question of Julian-Gregorian calendar conversion), I pose a general question: who among us had ancestors at Agincourt that fateful morning?
> Thanks,
> David Teague
>
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Nathaniel Taylor
Oct 25, 2011, 7:42:58 PM10/25/11
to David Teague, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 10:55 PM +0000 10/25/11, David Teague wrote:
>Since this date is the 596th anniversary of the Battle of Agincourt
>(leaving out the vexatious question of Julian-Gregorian calendar
>conversion), I pose a general question: who among us had ancestors
>at Agincourt that fateful morning?
>Thanks,
>David Teague
I pondered this a few years ago in a blog post:
>Since this date is the 596th anniversary of the Battle of Agincourt
>(leaving out the vexatious question of Julian-Gregorian calendar
>conversion), I pose a general question: who among us had ancestors
>at Agincourt that fateful morning?
>Thanks,
>David Teague
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/21
and here traced two specific descents here, from Sir Thomas Gresley
and Sir Richard Waldegrave:
http://www.nltaylor.net/things/mdagincourt.htm
It would be nice to see a systematic list of other known descents to
American colonists, or to any other discrete modern population within
England or outside it.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
PS I never thought I'd say it, but it's in threads like this that I
miss Hines. NLT
J Cook
Oct 25, 2011, 7:23:17 PM10/25/11
to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJb4dUSNmIo
I'm not sure if I have any known ancestors who were there...
Joe C
David Teague
Oct 25, 2011, 8:41:57 PM10/25/11
to shig...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
OK, here's mine:
John Chichester
David Teague
From: shig...@hotmail.com
To: davt...@hotmail.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: "This day is called the feast of Crispian. . ."
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:36:42 +0000
Edmund de FerrersJohn HollandPeter LeghJohn Savage
Humphrey Stafford
Perhaps in four years, there will be more
Cheers
Steve Higley
> From: davt...@hotmail.com
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: "This day is called the feast of Crispian. . ."
> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:55:16 +0000
>
>
> Since this date is the 596th anniversary of the Battle of Agincourt (leaving out the vexatious question of Julian-Gregorian calendar conversion), I pose a general question: who among us had ancestors at Agincourt that fateful morning?
> Thanks,
> David Teague
>
> Thanks,
> David Teague
>
John Watson
Oct 25, 2011, 8:45:30 PM10/25/11
to
On Oct 26, 6:15 am, James Sever <james.se...@aggiemail.usu.edu> wrote:
> Dear John ~
>
> Thank you for your post. Your have 152 lines from Isabel de
> Vermandois? I'm impressed.
>
> If you want, just post one line of descent. To make it simple, bring
> it forward to about 1600.
>
> When I have time later this week, I'll post a newly developed descent
> of mine which goes through Isabel de Vermandois' grandson, William the
> Lion, King of Scotland.
>
> Myself I've always been fascinated by Isabel de Vermandois and her
> large tribe of children.
Dear Douglas,
My 13 x great grandparents, Leonard Vavasour (d. 1598) and his wife
Mary Hotham are the ones with all the lines of descent from Isabel de
Vermandois. I descend from their daughter Elizabeth who died in 1623.
I will send you something off-list.
Regards,
John
> Dear John ~
>
> Thank you for your post. Your have 152 lines from Isabel de
> Vermandois? I'm impressed.
>
> If you want, just post one line of descent. To make it simple, bring
> it forward to about 1600.
>
> When I have time later this week, I'll post a newly developed descent
> of mine which goes through Isabel de Vermandois' grandson, William the
> Lion, King of Scotland.
>
> Myself I've always been fascinated by Isabel de Vermandois and her
> large tribe of children.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
My 13 x great grandparents, Leonard Vavasour (d. 1598) and his wife
Mary Hotham are the ones with all the lines of descent from Isabel de
Vermandois. I descend from their daughter Elizabeth who died in 1623.
I will send you something off-list.
Regards,
John
Hal Bradley
Oct 25, 2011, 8:52:13 PM10/25/11
to davt...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
A short list of ancestors I have gathered:
John Bernard, knight
David Gam, knight
Edmund, Lord Ferrers
Thomas Gresley, knight
James Harington, knight
Richard Harington, knight
William Harington, knight
John Savage, knight
William Stanley, knight
Brian Stapleton, Lord Ingham
Edward Stradling, knight
Richard Waldegrave, knight
Dafydd ap Llewelyn aka David Gam was knighted as he lay dying at Agincourt
---
These three valiant Welshmen, David Gam, Roger Vaughan, and Watkin Llwyd,
fell covered with wounds whilst defending the person of their monarch, and
Henry V knighted them as they lay extended in the agonies of death upon the
gory bed of honour.
Hal Bradley
Nathaniel Taylor
Oct 25, 2011, 9:07:56 PM10/25/11
to Hal Bradley, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 7:52 PM -0500 10/25/11, Hal Bradley wrote:
> A short list of ancestors I have gathered:
>
> John Bernard, knight
>
> David Gam, knight
>
> Edmund, Lord Ferrers
>
> Thomas Gresley, knight
>
> James Harington, knight
>
> Richard Harington, knight
>
> William Harington, knight
>
> John Savage, knight
>
> William Stanley, knight
>
> Brian Stapleton, Lord Ingham
>
> Edward Stradling, knight
>
> Richard Waldegrave, knight
>
> Dafydd ap Llewelyn aka David Gam was knighted as he lay dying at Agincourt
Hal, would you be able to append to to each his colonial gateway
> A short list of ancestors I have gathered:
>
> John Bernard, knight
>
> David Gam, knight
>
> Edmund, Lord Ferrers
>
> Thomas Gresley, knight
>
> James Harington, knight
>
> Richard Harington, knight
>
> William Harington, knight
>
> John Savage, knight
>
> William Stanley, knight
>
> Brian Stapleton, Lord Ingham
>
> Edward Stradling, knight
>
> Richard Waldegrave, knight
>
> Dafydd ap Llewelyn aka David Gam was knighted as he lay dying at Agincourt
descendant or descendants? And have you noticed or listed other
Agincourt ancestors of gateways you don't share personally? And can
you distinguish those who already appear in royal or Magna-Carta
descents traced the Weis-Richardson-type books, from those who do not?
J.L.Fernandez Blanco
Oct 25, 2011, 9:27:33 PM10/25/11
to
killed at Azincourt is:
http://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/1415
The page does not indicate any source.
Also, roglo has the following (each individual is more or less
sourced):
http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=fr;m=NOTES;f=Listes:Morts_pour_la_France:tues_azincourt#p_2
Is there any equivalent site for the English knights killed at that
battle? I think I read once something,
somewhere, but can't remember were it was or who had written it.
Thanks.
José Luis F.B.
J Cook
Oct 25, 2011, 10:33:21 PM10/25/11
to
On Oct 25, 9:27 pm, "J.L.Fernandez Blanco"
http://www.icmacentre.ac.uk/soldier/database/search.php
<fernandezblanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there any equivalent site for the English knights killed at that
> battle? I think I read once something,
> somewhere, but can't remember were it was or who had written it.
>
Muster Rolls and more searchable for the Hundred Year's War:
> Is there any equivalent site for the English knights killed at that
> battle? I think I read once something,
> somewhere, but can't remember were it was or who had written it.
>
http://www.icmacentre.ac.uk/soldier/database/search.php
Douglas Richardson
Oct 25, 2011, 11:31:09 PM10/25/11
to
Dear John ~
Thank you for your post. Your have 152 lines from Isabel de
Vermandois? I'm impressed.
If you want, just post one line of descent. To make it simple, bring
it forward to about 1600.
When I have time later this week, I'll post a newly developed descent
of mine which goes through Isabel de Vermandois' grandson, William the
Lion, King of Scotland.
Myself I've always been fascinated by Isabel de Vermandois and her
large tribe of children.
Thank you for your post. Your have 152 lines from Isabel de
Vermandois? I'm impressed.
If you want, just post one line of descent. To make it simple, bring
it forward to about 1600.
When I have time later this week, I'll post a newly developed descent
of mine which goes through Isabel de Vermandois' grandson, William the
Lion, King of Scotland.
Myself I've always been fascinated by Isabel de Vermandois and her
large tribe of children.
Rick Turner
Oct 26, 2011, 12:25:19 AM10/26/11
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
You can count me as a descendant of Isabel through William the Lion also,
down to Peter Worden.
Rick Turner
Bemidji MN
down to Peter Worden.
Rick Turner
Bemidji MN
Adrienne Boaz
Oct 26, 2011, 7:14:22 AM10/26/11
to Gen
Hi there newsgroup, I sent a reply to Douglas Richardson's email almost twelve hours ago, but it hasn't shown up in the archives yet. So, hopefully this does not result in a double post.
Here is my line of descent:
Elisabeth de Vermandois and William
de Warenne II, Second Earl of Surrey and Second Earl of Warenne
Ada de Warenne of Huntington and Henry, Earl of Huntington
William the Lion, King of Scotland and Isabel Avenel
Isabel of Scotland and Robert de Ros
William de Ros and Lucy FitzPeter
William de Ros and Eustache FitzRalph
Lucy de Ros and Robert de Plumpton
William de Plumpton and Christian de Mowbray
Alice de Plumpton and Richard de Sherburne
Margaret de Sherburne and Richard de Bailey
Richard Sherburne and Agnes Harington
Richard Sherburne and Alice Hammerton
Agnes Sherburne and Henry Rishton
Nicholas Rishton and Margaret Ratcliffe
Agnes Rishton and Richard Worthington
Peter Worthington and Isabel Anderton
Isabel Worthington and Robert
Worden
Peter Worden (the elder) and Margaret
Grice
Peter Worden II and Mary
Mercy Wordenand Kenelm Winslow, Jr.
Major Edward Winslow and Sarah
Sarah Winslow Lincoln and James Whitcomb
Robert Whitcomb and Eunice Sheldon
James Whitcomb and Lucy Kilburn
Albert Whitcomb and Lucy
Bishop
Sarah Jane Whitcomb and Lodowick
W. Disbrow
Lavoisier W. Disbrow and Cora Alice Easton (those were my great-great grandparents)
I'm writing a book about my ancestors, and it will never be finished... but I'll publish it anyway, maybe in a year or so.
- Adrienne Boaz
(Posted in response to this message):
Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
Nathaniel Taylor
Oct 26, 2011, 8:48:00 AM10/26/11
to Hal Bradley, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Re: Hal's list of ancestors at Agincourt, I asked him:
Hal, would you be able to append to to each his colonial gateway
descendant or descendants? And have you noticed or listed other
Agincourt ancestors of gateways you don't share personally? And can
you distinguish those who already appear in royal or Magna-Carta
descents traced the Weis-Richardson-type books, from those who do not?
Ancestry_ and _Magna Carta Ancestry_ (via google books word search) and come
up with the following list of participants who have documented 17th-century
American colonial descendants who were at the battle. From _Plantagenet
Ancestry_ (2004 ed.):
Sir Brian Stapleton (p. 57)
Sir Edward Stradling (79)
Sir Wm Bouchier, Comte d'Eu (140)
Sir William Eure (295)
John Holand, Earl of Huntingdon (300)
Sir Edmund Ferrers (309)
Henry, Lord Fitz Hugh (324)
Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester (433)
Sir John Grey of Heaton, KG (454)
Thomas Montagu, Earl of Salisbury (509)
Sir John Pudsey of Bolton, Yorks. (597)
Sir John Savage (638)
Sir Roger Fiennes (642)
Sir John Stanley (678)
Sir Thomas Tunstall (731)
And the following extras from _Magna Carta Ancestry_, 2005 ed. (MCA also
includes all of the above):
Sir Wm Bowet of Blackhall, Cumberland (213-4)
William, Lord Harington ['probably'] (410)
Sir Thomas Lewkenor (508)
Richard, Lord Scrope of Bolton (823)
NB there are others named in these books as having been at Agincourt, but
the others are brothers or supernumerary husbands not in the line of descent
to colonists. There were also a few near misses for Agincourt -- e.g. a
couple of folks on the campaign who died of dysentery at Harfleur or who
were left there to hold it when Henry marched to Calais.
Now, we have already named a few other ancestors present who did not appear
in these books (that is, they were not themselves Plantagenet or Magna Carta
descendants, or not married to them) -- Sir Thomas Gresley, Sir William
Waldegrave, Davy Gam, etc. But this all is a good start.
Douglas Richardson
Oct 26, 2011, 9:29:33 AM10/26/11
to
Thanks Adrienne for posting your line of descent from Isabel de
Vermandois.
Vermandois.
lostcopper
Oct 26, 2011, 3:32:43 PM10/26/11
to
Stafford), daughter Ada (Brittany, Bohun, Orkney, Galloway, Bruce,
Hastings, Crawford, &, of course, your William the Lion (Ferrers, Ros,
Dunbar), daughter Gundred & two husbands (Beaumont, Verdun, Mauduit,
Lancaster, Lea, Morville, Bruce, Lindsay), son Reginald (Bardolf), and
daughter Isabel (Fitzroy-Chilham, Strathbougle, Balliol, Marmion,
Berkeley, Eu, Lusignan, Bohun). I do my work the old-fashioned way, by
hand. Since I don't have software for it, I will prowl through these
lines to find as many 17th century descents as I can & send them on.
Best, Bronwen
Sholom Simon
Oct 26, 2011, 6:42:53 PM10/26/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, royala...@msn.com
>Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
>hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post
Thanks for posting the info. Here's my (wife's) descent from her
(this assumes one accepts the Griffith Bowen-Margaret Fleming
connection) -- if you'd prefer dates, etc., I can add those
in. Sources for any particular generation available upon request.
(Obviously, almost all the Welsh-sounding names come from Peter
Batrum, Welsh genealogies, A.D. 300-1400 -- which was digitized *and
updated from the printed edition* into The Bartrum Project, at
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026 )
And, of course, all additions/corrections/etc., are welcomed.
This path is through Margaret Fleming:
1. * Isabel / Elizabeth de Vermandois = * Baron Robert de Beaumont
1st Earl of Leicester
2. * Robert de Beaumont 2nd Earl of Leicester = Amicia de Montfort
3. William FitzRobert 2nd Earl of Gloucester = * Hawise de Beaumont
4. Richard de Clare 3rd Earl of Hertford = * Amice FitzRobert
Countess of Gloucester
5. Rhys Gryg ap Yr Arglwydd Rhys = * Joan de Clare
6. Gruffudd ap Cadwgon Fawr = *Jonet ferch Rhys Gryg
7. * Cadwgon ap Gruffudd = Catrin ferch Aron
8. * Gruffudd Dwnn ap Cadwgon = Annes ferch Cadwgon
9. * Henry Dwnn ap Gruffudd Dwnn = Annes ferch Ieaun Llywelyn
10. * Maredudd ap Henry Dwnn = Mallt ferch Gruffudd
(also: 10. Gwilym ap Philip = *Gwadlus ferch Henry Dwnn -- see below)
11. Gruffudd ap Nicholas = * Mabli ferch Maredudd
12. * Owain ap Gruffydd = Alison Malefant
13. William Barrett = * Elen ferch Owain
14. * William Barrett = Agnes ferch Philip ap Meredudd
15. * Henry Barrett = Catrin ferch Trahaearn ap Morgan
16. William Dawkin = * Margaret Barrett
17. * Jenkin Dawkins = Elizabeth Jenkin
18. Henry Fleming = * Alice Dawkins
19. Griffith Bowen = * Margaret Fleming
20. Benjamin Child = * Mary Bowen
21. Jacob Chamberlain = * Mary Child
22. Samuel Davis = * Mary Chamberlain
23. Elisha Rich = * Mary Davis
24. * Nathaniel Rich = Phebe Putnam
25. Jonathan Willson = * Mehitable Rich
26. * Jonathan Willson = Elizabeth (Betsey) Eager
27. * Henry Harrison Willson = Josephine Thankful Dimmick
28. * William Seward Willson = Elizabeth Gladys aka "Gladys Lillian" Foster
30. Donald Alvey Wallace = * Madeline Beth Willson
31. * William Robert Wallace = Jean Evonne Moorehead
32. * Susan Beth Wallace = Sholom Simon (me!)
=================
The following path is through Griffith Bowen:
1 thru 9 are the same as above
10. Gwilym ap Philip = *Gwadlus ferch Henry Dwnn
11. * Gwilym Fychan ap Gwilym = Margred ferch Thomas
12. * Thomas ap Gwilym Fychan = NN
13. Jenkin ap Ieuan = * Jonet (or Joan) ferch Thomas
14. * Owain (Owen) ap Jenkin = Alice ferch John of Llanfrynach
15. * Gruffudd Bowen = Anne Berry
16. * Philip Bowen = Elizabeth Vaughan
17. * Francis Bowen = Ellen Franklyn
18. * Griffith Bowen = Margaret Fleming (this is the same as line 19 above)
FWIW!
-- Sholom
Steve Higley
Oct 26, 2011, 7:32:59 PM10/26/11
to sho...@aishdas.org, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, royala...@msn.com
Sholom, Dyolch yn fawr! I had no idea this had been digitized. Thanks for sharing the link. Steve
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:42:53 -0400
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> From: sho...@aishdas.org
> Subject: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
> CC: royala...@msn.com
Sholom Simon
Oct 26, 2011, 8:17:40 PM10/26/11
to Steve Higley, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, royala...@msn.com
Greetings!
Here's the even better news: Bartrum, as you will see, made
handwritten notes updating his previously published work, and the
images were digitized _after_ he made the notes. In other words,
this digitized work augments and corrects the published version that
exists in libraries, etc.
Enjoy!
-- Sholom
>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>signature database 6577 (20111026) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
><http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com
Here's the even better news: Bartrum, as you will see, made
handwritten notes updating his previously published work, and the
images were digitized _after_ he made the notes. In other words,
this digitized work augments and corrects the published version that
exists in libraries, etc.
Enjoy!
-- Sholom
>signature database 6577 (20111026) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
><http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com
James R. Yeowell
Oct 27, 2011, 2:40:11 AM10/27/11
to Steve Higley, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, royala...@msn.com
I have at least 25 descents from Isabel de Vermandois (although at least 2 are flagged up as questionable and some others may also be incorrect or questionable).
The first one that comes up, is the following (not the shortest descent, however). Do correct any mistakes.
Isabel de Vermandois
Ada de Warenne
Margaret, Countess of Hereford
Henry de Bohun, Earl of Hereford, Constable of England
Humphrey de Bohun, 2nd Earl of Hereford
Sir Humphrey de Bohun
Alianore de Bohun
John de Ferrers, Lord of Chartley
Robert de Ferrers, 3rd Lord of Chartley
John de Ferrers, 4th Lord of Chartley
Robert de Ferrers, 5th Lord of Chartley
Sir Edward Ferrers, 6th Lord of Chartley
Sir William Ferrers, 7th Lord of Chartley
Anne Ferrers
Elizabeth Devereux
Sir Robert Corbet
Jane Corbet
Richard Lee, of Langley, Shropshire
Catherine Lee
Richard Hereford, of Sufton Court
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
James Hereford, of Sufton Court
Anne Hereford
Rev. Thomas Broade, M.A., rector of Benefield, Northamptonshire
Anne Broade
Thomas Lodington
Thomas Lodington
Ens. Thomas Edward Lodington
Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington, alias Edwards
Mary Edwards
Then through to me via the Hold family, amongst others.
A slightly different descent is the same as above, until:
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
Margery Hereford
Rev. Francis Broade, M.A., prebendary of Hereford
Rev. Thomas Broade, M.A. rector of Benefield
Then the same as above.
I have several other lines from her, via the the Hastings and Harcourt family. Plus another through Vesci/Vesey and the Vernons. Plus another through the Beaumonts, Clares, Marshals, Bigods, Lacy, de Genevilles, Mortimers, Audleys, Tuchets, Baskervilles, Vaughans, Scuadmores, Warnecombes, Kyrles and Holmes.
The line I mentioned that has been flagged up as potentially troublesome is via the Pershall/Peshall family. I know I am descended from a member of this family but I am uncertain as to how exactly the lady in question fits in. I shall have to do further research here.
As you can see, my gateway ancestor(s) are the Broades and the Herefords (via the Lodington family).
I am still researching of some these lines as well, so I might well be able to add more descents via Isabel de Vermandois in due course.
Unlike most on this board, I do not have any migrant ancestors.
Anyhow, as I said, if you find errors in the above (which I have only supplied a descent from, with no dates or spouse details), do let me know and I shall be pleased to edit my data accordingly.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell.
The first one that comes up, is the following (not the shortest descent, however). Do correct any mistakes.
Isabel de Vermandois
Ada de Warenne
Margaret, Countess of Hereford
Henry de Bohun, Earl of Hereford, Constable of England
Humphrey de Bohun, 2nd Earl of Hereford
Sir Humphrey de Bohun
Alianore de Bohun
John de Ferrers, Lord of Chartley
Robert de Ferrers, 3rd Lord of Chartley
John de Ferrers, 4th Lord of Chartley
Robert de Ferrers, 5th Lord of Chartley
Sir Edward Ferrers, 6th Lord of Chartley
Sir William Ferrers, 7th Lord of Chartley
Anne Ferrers
Elizabeth Devereux
Sir Robert Corbet
Jane Corbet
Richard Lee, of Langley, Shropshire
Catherine Lee
Richard Hereford, of Sufton Court
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
James Hereford, of Sufton Court
Anne Hereford
Rev. Thomas Broade, M.A., rector of Benefield, Northamptonshire
Anne Broade
Thomas Lodington
Thomas Lodington
Ens. Thomas Edward Lodington
Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington, alias Edwards
Mary Edwards
Then through to me via the Hold family, amongst others.
A slightly different descent is the same as above, until:
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
Margery Hereford
Rev. Francis Broade, M.A., prebendary of Hereford
Rev. Thomas Broade, M.A. rector of Benefield
Then the same as above.
I have several other lines from her, via the the Hastings and Harcourt family. Plus another through Vesci/Vesey and the Vernons. Plus another through the Beaumonts, Clares, Marshals, Bigods, Lacy, de Genevilles, Mortimers, Audleys, Tuchets, Baskervilles, Vaughans, Scuadmores, Warnecombes, Kyrles and Holmes.
The line I mentioned that has been flagged up as potentially troublesome is via the Pershall/Peshall family. I know I am descended from a member of this family but I am uncertain as to how exactly the lady in question fits in. I shall have to do further research here.
As you can see, my gateway ancestor(s) are the Broades and the Herefords (via the Lodington family).
I am still researching of some these lines as well, so I might well be able to add more descents via Isabel de Vermandois in due course.
Unlike most on this board, I do not have any migrant ancestors.
Anyhow, as I said, if you find errors in the above (which I have only supplied a descent from, with no dates or spouse details), do let me know and I shall be pleased to edit my data accordingly.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell.
James R. Yeowell
Oct 27, 2011, 3:10:48 AM10/27/11
to
Another line, I forgot to mention and one I am not sure is correct:
Isabel de Vermandois
Isabel de Beaumont
Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke
Isabel de Clare
Eva Marshal
Eve de Braose
Cantilupe (this is where I'm not sure)
Hopkin ap Hywel "Fychan" ap Hywel, of Tregantllo
Efa ferch Hopkin ap Hywel "Fychan" ap Hywel
Gwladus ferch Dafydd ap Meurig ap Hywel ap Hywel
Efa ferch Ieuan ap Rhys ab Ifor "Goch"
John ap Harry
Richard ap Harry, of Poston
Catherine Parry (I am also not sure about her descent)
Two caviats are for Cantilupe and the placement of Catherine Parry (who is noted as Catherine Harry, daughter of Thomas Harry, of Poston in the record I have seen).
Again, any corrections are welcome.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell
Isabel de Vermandois
Isabel de Beaumont
Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke
Isabel de Clare
Eva Marshal
Eve de Braose
Cantilupe (this is where I'm not sure)
Hopkin ap Hywel "Fychan" ap Hywel, of Tregantllo
Efa ferch Hopkin ap Hywel "Fychan" ap Hywel
Gwladus ferch Dafydd ap Meurig ap Hywel ap Hywel
Efa ferch Ieuan ap Rhys ab Ifor "Goch"
John ap Harry
Richard ap Harry, of Poston
Catherine Parry (I am also not sure about her descent)
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
John Hereford, of Sufton Court
Richard Hereford, of Sufton Court
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court
Margery Hereford
Rev. Francis Broade, M.A., prebendary of Hereford
And thus it continues as my previous post.
Rev. Francis Broade, M.A., prebendary of Hereford
Two caviats are for Cantilupe and the placement of Catherine Parry (who is noted as Catherine Harry, daughter of Thomas Harry, of Poston in the record I have seen).
Again, any corrections are welcome.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell
mam...@interia.pl
Oct 27, 2011, 8:59:21 AM10/27/11
to
I always look here http://yourdeathdate.info/1/index.html
Death when it comes will have no denial.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Wanda Thacker
Oct 27, 2011, 4:08:08 PM10/27/11
to Johnny Brananas, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At the risk of asking a stupid question, why are you referring to Isabel as "the Ur Mother?"
________________________________
From: Johnny Brananas <ravinma...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
> Does anybody else's come through 8 generations of a matrilineal line
> at the bottom?
I forgot that my cousin Sally Hamblen Hill's daughter would represent
an extension of this female line to the 9th generation.
________________________________
From: Johnny Brananas <ravinma...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
> Does anybody else's come through 8 generations of a matrilineal line
> at the bottom?
I forgot that my cousin Sally Hamblen Hill's daughter would represent
an extension of this female line to the 9th generation.
Leo
Oct 27, 2011, 4:52:36 PM10/27/11
to Wanda Thacker, Johnny Brananas, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
No it is not a stupid question. I think someone took that description
because Isabel (Elizabeth) de Vermandois is the ancestor of SO many people.
My data base in this regards is far from complete, but over 10 generations I
have 3.569 descendants. One of these is Philippa the wife of Edward III of
England. If you then imagine the number of their descendants recorded in
Ruvigny's Blood Royal, the number of all descendants to the present is just
so enormous.
In 1929 a book was published which in 1979 was again published by the
Genealogical Publishing Co in Baltimore. It was compiled by David Starr
Jordan and Sarah Louise Kimball with the not very illuminating title of
"Your Family Tree".
The genealogy I skipp, but the foreword "Scientific Aspects of Genealogy" I
think is just superb. It has lots of interesting sayings (from all kinds of
origins) but one segment is called "The Kimball Chart" (compiled by Sarah
Louise Kimball). "This chart, far too large for reproduction, gives a
fragment of the list of descendants of Isabel de Vermandois, a Norman lady
born about 1070, who died on February 13, 1131, in the reign of King Henry I
of England." To capture a few further remarks :
Through six separate strains descended from Charlemagne.
while her mother was a descendant of Alfred the Great
It should also be noted that a very large (although indefinable) percentage
of British and American families of marked originalitgy and energy are
descended from Isabel.
This foreword also explains the opinion that anyone with Anglo-Saxon blood
descends from William the Conqueror. However, as always, it is hard in most
cases to have the records to prove it.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
because Isabel (Elizabeth) de Vermandois is the ancestor of SO many people.
My data base in this regards is far from complete, but over 10 generations I
have 3.569 descendants. One of these is Philippa the wife of Edward III of
England. If you then imagine the number of their descendants recorded in
Ruvigny's Blood Royal, the number of all descendants to the present is just
so enormous.
In 1929 a book was published which in 1979 was again published by the
Genealogical Publishing Co in Baltimore. It was compiled by David Starr
Jordan and Sarah Louise Kimball with the not very illuminating title of
"Your Family Tree".
The genealogy I skipp, but the foreword "Scientific Aspects of Genealogy" I
think is just superb. It has lots of interesting sayings (from all kinds of
origins) but one segment is called "The Kimball Chart" (compiled by Sarah
Louise Kimball). "This chart, far too large for reproduction, gives a
fragment of the list of descendants of Isabel de Vermandois, a Norman lady
born about 1070, who died on February 13, 1131, in the reign of King Henry I
of England." To capture a few further remarks :
Through six separate strains descended from Charlemagne.
while her mother was a descendant of Alfred the Great
It should also be noted that a very large (although indefinable) percentage
of British and American families of marked originalitgy and energy are
descended from Isabel.
This foreword also explains the opinion that anyone with Anglo-Saxon blood
descends from William the Conqueror. However, as always, it is hard in most
cases to have the records to prove it.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
John
Oct 27, 2011, 5:38:33 PM10/27/11
to
On Oct 27, 1:08 pm, Wanda Thacker <wanda_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> At the risk of asking a stupid question, why are you referring to Isabel as "the Ur Mother?"
It's a pretty arbitrary designation. Anyone who is able to trace
> At the risk of asking a stupid question, why are you referring to Isabel as "the Ur Mother?"
ancestry back to this era, especially via English lines, is almost
certain to run into Isabel - and many other individuals, any of whom
could be designated an "ur-parent".
If you reach the medieval period in tracing virtually ANY English
ancestry, you will quickly see the same strings of ancestors repeating
themselves. No surprise at all....and I doubt that this thread is
uncovering any new descents from Isabel - at least within the medieval
period.
merilyn...@internode.on.net
Oct 27, 2011, 5:55:29 PM10/27/11
to Wanda Thacker, Johnny Brananas, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Leo
Dear Leo, Wander, Johnny et al
Years ago there was a book written by James Michener called "The
Source", which dealt with an archaeological dig in the Middle East at
or near Tyre. The story followed a young man and woman who were the
archaeeologists on this dig (who inevitably fell in love and lived
happily ever after). Each level of the dig they reached contained a
family from whom both of them were (unknowingly) descended, and when
they eventually reached the bottom of the many civilizations who had
lived there, they discovered the habitation called "Ur" back in the
days of the cave-man. It was fascinating, and the catylist for my
interest in genealogy. So this is probably why Isabel de Vermandois is
referred to as the "Ur Mother", because she is ancestor to so many of
us.
I descend from four of her children with Robert de Beaumont, and four
from her marriage with William de Warenne. My children can claim a
fifth descent through Robert.
......... And talking of books.......... this is strictly OT and I
apologise for treading on any toes......... but there is a book being
published at the moment, which I commissioned an author to write. It
is a biography of my great great grandfather Alexander John Smith (who
is an Isabel de Vermandois descendant, so maybe it's not too OT).
When my aunt died about three years ago, her son and his wife
discovered a great number of letters that he had written during his
lifetime back to his family in England. The first one was written in
1830, three weeks after his 18th birthday, and the last one in 1872,
three weeks before he died.
I asked my cousins if I could transcribe the letters, and that took
over a year. When I got to the end I realised that his life had been
far too interesting to be read just by his family, so I commissioned
an Emeritus Professor of History at Newcastle University in NSW to
write his biography. His name is John Ramsland, and he has made the
book a rollicking good read. Think Master and Commander ++. The book
is called "From Antarctica tot the Goldrushes: in the Wake of the
Erebus". It covers Alexander's life in the Royal Navy, including the
expedition to Antarctica 1839-1843 in the Erebus and Terror, then a
stint in Tasmania at the Rossbank Observatory, then several years as
Commissioner of the Goldfields at Castlemaine in Victoria, then his
career as a Member of Parliament, and his life as a successful
grazier.
If anyone is interested in buying a book I can send you an order form
The book is $26.99 plus postage.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia, but currently in sunny California staying
with my son.
On Fri 28/10/11 7:22 AM , "Leo" can...@netspeed.com.au sent:
> At the risk of asking a stupid question, why are you referring to
Isabel
> as "the Ur Mother?"
>
>
> ________________________________
Isabel
> as "the Ur Mother?"
>
>
> From: Johnny Brananas
Wjhonson
Oct 27, 2011, 6:00:10 PM10/27/11
to merilyn...@internode.on.net, wand...@yahoo.com, ravinma...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, can...@netspeed.com.au
Interesting the way our memories play tricks on us.
http://www.amazon.com/Source-James-Michener/dp/0449211479
When I saw you mention Tyre and Ur in the same paragraph my ears pricked up.
-----Original Message-----
From: merilyn.pedrick <merilyn...@internode.on.net>
To: Wanda Thacker <wand...@yahoo.com>; Johnny Brananas <ravinma...@yahoo.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; Leo <can...@netspeed.com.au>
Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 2:55 pm
Subject: Re: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
Dear Leo, Wander, Johnny et al
Years ago there was a book written by James Michener called "The
ource", which dealt with an archaeological dig in the Middle East at
r near Tyre. The story followed a young man and woman who were the
rchaeeologists on this dig (who inevitably fell in love and lived
appily ever after). Each level of the dig they reached contained a
amily from whom both of them were (unknowingly) descended, and when
hey eventually reached the bottom of the many civilizations who had
ived there, they discovered the habitation called "Ur" back in the
ays of the cave-man. It was fascinating, and the catylist for my
nterest in genealogy. So this is probably why Isabel de Vermandois is
eferred to as the "Ur Mother", because she is ancestor to so many of
s.
I descend from four of her children with Robert de Beaumont, and four
I descend from four of her children with Robert de Beaumont, and four
rom her marriage with William de Warenne. My children can claim a
ifth descent through Robert.
......... And talking of books.......... this is strictly OT and I
......... And talking of books.......... this is strictly OT and I
pologise for treading on any toes......... but there is a book being
ublished at the moment, which I commissioned an author to write. It
s a biography of my great great grandfather Alexander John Smith (who
s an Isabel de Vermandois descendant, so maybe it's not too OT).
When my aunt died about three years ago, her son and his wife
When my aunt died about three years ago, her son and his wife
iscovered a great number of letters that he had written during his
ifetime back to his family in England. The first one was written in
830, three weeks after his 18th birthday, and the last one in 1872,
hree weeks before he died.
I asked my cousins if I could transcribe the letters, and that took
I asked my cousins if I could transcribe the letters, and that took
ver a year. When I got to the end I realised that his life had been
ar too interesting to be read just by his family, so I commissioned
n Emeritus Professor of History at Newcastle University in NSW to
rite his biography. His name is John Ramsland, and he has made the
ook a rollicking good read. Think Master and Commander ++. The book
s called "From Antarctica tot the Goldrushes: in the Wake of the
rebus". It covers Alexander's life in the Royal Navy, including the
xpedition to Antarctica 1839-1843 in the Erebus and Terror, then a
tint in Tasmania at the Rossbank Observatory, then several years as
ommissioner of the Goldfields at Castlemaine in Victoria, then his
areer as a Member of Parliament, and his life as a successful
razier.
If anyone is interested in buying a book I can send you an order form
If anyone is interested in buying a book I can send you an order form
he book is $26.99 plus postage.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia, but currently in sunny California staying
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia, but currently in sunny California staying
ith my son.
On Fri 28/10/11 7:22 AM , "Leo" can...@netspeed.com.au sent:
No it is not a stupid question. I think someone took that
On Fri 28/10/11 7:22 AM , "Leo" can...@netspeed.com.au sent:
No it is not a stupid question. I think someone took that
escription
because Isabel (Elizabeth) de Vermandois is the ancestor of SO many
because Isabel (Elizabeth) de Vermandois is the ancestor of SO many
eople.
My data base in this regards is far from complete, but over 10
My data base in this regards is far from complete, but over 10
enerations I
have 3.569 descendants. One of these is Philippa the wife of Edward
II of
England. If you then imagine the number of their descendants recorded
have 3.569 descendants. One of these is Philippa the wife of Edward
II of
England. If you then imagine the number of their descendants recorded
n
Ruvigny's Blood Royal, the number of all descendants to the present
Ruvigny's Blood Royal, the number of all descendants to the present
s just
so enormous.
In 1929 a book was published which in 1979 was again published by the
Genealogical Publishing Co in Baltimore. It was compiled by David
so enormous.
In 1929 a book was published which in 1979 was again published by the
Genealogical Publishing Co in Baltimore. It was compiled by David
tarr
Jordan and Sarah Louise Kimball with the not very illuminating title
Jordan and Sarah Louise Kimball with the not very illuminating title
f
"Your Family Tree".
The genealogy I skipp, but the foreword "Scientific Aspects of
"Your Family Tree".
The genealogy I skipp, but the foreword "Scientific Aspects of
enealogy" I
think is just superb. It has lots of interesting sayings (from all
think is just superb. It has lots of interesting sayings (from all
inds of
origins) but one segment is called "The Kimball Chart" (compiled by
origins) but one segment is called "The Kimball Chart" (compiled by
arah
Louise Kimball). "This chart, far too large for reproduction, gives a
fragment of the list of descendants of Isabel de Vermandois, a Norman
Louise Kimball). "This chart, far too large for reproduction, gives a
fragment of the list of descendants of Isabel de Vermandois, a Norman
ady
born about 1070, who died on February 13, 1131, in the reign of King
born about 1070, who died on February 13, 1131, in the reign of King
enry I
of England." To capture a few further remarks :
Through six separate strains descended from Charlemagne.
while her mother was a descendant of Alfred the Great
It should also be noted that a very large (although indefinable)
of England." To capture a few further remarks :
Through six separate strains descended from Charlemagne.
while her mother was a descendant of Alfred the Great
It should also be noted that a very large (although indefinable)
ercentage
of British and American families of marked originalitgy and energy
of British and American families of marked originalitgy and energy
re
descended from Isabel.
This foreword also explains the opinion that anyone with Anglo-Saxon
descended from Isabel.
This foreword also explains the opinion that anyone with Anglo-Saxon
lood
descends from William the Conqueror. However, as always, it is hard
descends from William the Conqueror. However, as always, it is hard
n most
cases to have the records to prove it.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanda Thacker"
To: "Johnny Brananas" ;
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de
cases to have the records to prove it.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanda Thacker"
To: "Johnny Brananas" ;
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de
ermandois
> At the risk of asking a stupid question, why are you referring to
> At the risk of asking a stupid question, why are you referring to
sabel
> as "the Ur Mother?"
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johnny Brananas
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de
> as "the Ur Mother?"
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johnny Brananas
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de
ermandois
>
>> Does anybody else's come through 8 generations of a matrilineal
>
>> Does anybody else's come through 8 generations of a matrilineal
ine
>> at the bottom?
>
> I forgot that my cousin Sally Hamblen Hill's daughter would
>> at the bottom?
>
> I forgot that my cousin Sally Hamblen Hill's daughter would
epresent
> an extension of this female line to the 9th generation.
>
>
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> an extension of this female line to the 9th generation.
>
>
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ithout the
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>
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------------------------------
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> -------------------------------
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ithout the
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he message
John
Oct 27, 2011, 6:28:44 PM10/27/11
to
On Oct 27, 2:55 pm, merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net wrote:
> Dear Leo, Wander, Johnny et al
>
> Years ago there was a book written by James Michener called "The
> Source", which dealt with an archaeological dig in the Middle East at
> or near Tyre. The story followed a young man and woman who were the
> archaeeologists on this dig (who inevitably fell in love and lived
> happily ever after). Each level of the dig they reached contained a
> family from whom both of them were (unknowingly) descended, and when
> they eventually reached the bottom of the many civilizations who had
> lived there, they discovered the habitation called "Ur" back in the
> days of the cave-man. It was fascinating, and the catylist for my
> interest in genealogy. So this is probably why Isabel de Vermandois is
> referred to as the "Ur Mother", because she is ancestor to so many of
> us.
>
As interesting as Michener's "The Source" was, I doubt that he coined
> Dear Leo, Wander, Johnny et al
>
> Years ago there was a book written by James Michener called "The
> Source", which dealt with an archaeological dig in the Middle East at
> or near Tyre. The story followed a young man and woman who were the
> archaeeologists on this dig (who inevitably fell in love and lived
> happily ever after). Each level of the dig they reached contained a
> family from whom both of them were (unknowingly) descended, and when
> they eventually reached the bottom of the many civilizations who had
> lived there, they discovered the habitation called "Ur" back in the
> days of the cave-man. It was fascinating, and the catylist for my
> interest in genealogy. So this is probably why Isabel de Vermandois is
> referred to as the "Ur Mother", because she is ancestor to so many of
> us.
>
the term "ur-mother" or that it refers to a place (real or fictional)
called Ur. In German genealogy, the term "uradel" is quite common,
with "adel" meaning "nolbility" and the prefix "ur" indicating
"ancient, or original". The term "ur-mother" is probably derived from
the German usage.
Bonnie
Oct 27, 2011, 6:34:25 PM10/27/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
One of many, many lines --- but here's a largely early Connecticut descent :
Isabel of Vermandois
Sir Robert de Beaumont
Sir Robert de Beaumont
Margaret de Beaumont
Robert II de Quincy
Margaret de Quincy
Maud de Lacy
Thomas de Clare
Maud de Clare
Robert Lord Clifford
Roger Lord Clifford
Katharine Clifford
Maud de Greystoke
Lionel de Welles
Cecily de Welles
Christopher Willoughby
Margaret Willoughby
Ann (Tyrrell) Clere
Edward Clere
Anne (Clere) Gilbert
Temperance (Gilbert) Alsop
Elizabeth ALSOP + Richard Baldwin
Sarah Baldwin + Samuel Riggs
Ebenezer Riggs + Lois Hawkins
Lois (Riggs) + Abiel Fairchild
Nathan Fairchild + Lois Beecher
Ruth Fairchild + Samuel Buckingham
Esther Buckingham + Barret B. Elster
John Casper Elster + Mehitable Kingsley
Ida Sarah Elster + Frank Eugene Reanier
Wilber Avery Reanier + Minty E. Richardson (my grandparents)
Bonnie
Isabel of Vermandois
Sir Robert de Beaumont
Sir Robert de Beaumont
Margaret de Beaumont
Robert II de Quincy
Margaret de Quincy
Maud de Lacy
Thomas de Clare
Maud de Clare
Robert Lord Clifford
Roger Lord Clifford
Katharine Clifford
Maud de Greystoke
Lionel de Welles
Cecily de Welles
Christopher Willoughby
Margaret Willoughby
Ann (Tyrrell) Clere
Edward Clere
Anne (Clere) Gilbert
Temperance (Gilbert) Alsop
Elizabeth ALSOP + Richard Baldwin
Sarah Baldwin + Samuel Riggs
Ebenezer Riggs + Lois Hawkins
Lois (Riggs) + Abiel Fairchild
Nathan Fairchild + Lois Beecher
Ruth Fairchild + Samuel Buckingham
Esther Buckingham + Barret B. Elster
John Casper Elster + Mehitable Kingsley
Ida Sarah Elster + Frank Eugene Reanier
Wilber Avery Reanier + Minty E. Richardson (my grandparents)
Bonnie
Vivien Martin
Oct 27, 2011, 6:50:49 PM10/27/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Newsgroup
"No it is not a stupid question. I think someone took that description
because Isabel (Elizabeth) de Vermandois is the ancestor of SO many people.
My data base in this regards is far from complete, but over 10 generations I
have 3.569 descendants. One of these is Philippa the wife of Edward III of
England. If you then imagine the number of their descendants recorded in
Ruvigny's Blood Royal, the number of all descendants to the present is just
so enormous"
Then count me in here as well as I am descended from Edward III.
Phillipa of Hainaut = Edward III
Edmund of Langley
Richard Plantagenet
Richard Plantagenet
Ann of York Duchess of Exeter
Anne St. Leger
Thomas Manners 1st Earl of Rutland
Katherine Manners
Arthur Capell
Henry Capell
Elizabeth Capell
Theodosia Wiseman
Anne Craven
Anne Hutchinson
Craven Ord
Robert Hutchinson ORD my ggggrandfather.
Cheers
Vivien Martin
"No it is not a stupid question. I think someone took that description
because Isabel (Elizabeth) de Vermandois is the ancestor of SO many people.
My data base in this regards is far from complete, but over 10 generations I
have 3.569 descendants. One of these is Philippa the wife of Edward III of
England. If you then imagine the number of their descendants recorded in
Ruvigny's Blood Royal, the number of all descendants to the present is just
so enormous"
Then count me in here as well as I am descended from Edward III.
Phillipa of Hainaut = Edward III
Edmund of Langley
Richard Plantagenet
Richard Plantagenet
Ann of York Duchess of Exeter
Anne St. Leger
Thomas Manners 1st Earl of Rutland
Katherine Manners
Arthur Capell
Henry Capell
Elizabeth Capell
Theodosia Wiseman
Anne Craven
Anne Hutchinson
Craven Ord
Robert Hutchinson ORD my ggggrandfather.
Cheers
Vivien Martin
James R. Yeowell
Oct 27, 2011, 7:45:19 PM10/27/11
to
I forgot to mention that the wife of one of my ancestors (but not the mother of his children), who is a descendant of Isabel de Vermandois, has a descent via Edward III, as follows:
Edward III, King of England
John, Duke of Lancaster
Lady Joan de Beaufort
Lady Eleanor Nevill
Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland
Lady Mary Percy
Agnes Gascoigne
Margaret Fairfax
Thomas Maunsell, M.A., of Chicheley, Buckinghamshire
Capt. Thomas Maunsell, R.N., of Derryville, co. Cork
Capt. John Maunsell, Sheriff of co. Limerick
Thomas Maunsell, Sheriff of co, Limerick
Capt. Edward Maunsell, High Sheriff of co. Dublin
Thomas Ridgate Maunsell
Elizabeth Fortye Maunsell
Eleanor Sarah Fortye Millis = Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington, alias Edwards
I am also hoping this line is correct. This therefore makes Eleanor and her husband related to each other and of course, although she was not the mother of his children, she is also now related to me very distantly as well.
If any mistakes are found in this descent, do let me know.
Edward III, King of England
John, Duke of Lancaster
Lady Joan de Beaufort
Lady Eleanor Nevill
Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland
Lady Mary Percy
Agnes Gascoigne
Margaret Fairfax
Thomas Maunsell, M.A., of Chicheley, Buckinghamshire
Capt. Thomas Maunsell, R.N., of Derryville, co. Cork
Capt. John Maunsell, Sheriff of co. Limerick
Thomas Maunsell, Sheriff of co, Limerick
Capt. Edward Maunsell, High Sheriff of co. Dublin
Thomas Ridgate Maunsell
Elizabeth Fortye Maunsell
Eleanor Sarah Fortye Millis = Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington, alias Edwards
I am also hoping this line is correct. This therefore makes Eleanor and her husband related to each other and of course, although she was not the mother of his children, she is also now related to me very distantly as well.
If any mistakes are found in this descent, do let me know.
Wjhonson
Oct 28, 2011, 1:21:02 AM10/28/11
to soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
What are your sources which take you from Anneys (Agnes) Gascoigne through Margaret Fairfax to Thomas Maunsell?
Source for mother to daughter, source for daughter to husband, and for daughter to grandson ?
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the message
James C. Woodard
Oct 28, 2011, 1:42:40 AM10/28/11
to
Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote in news:f8c67121-8dae-
4f79-93b8-8...@s35g2000pra.googlegroups.com:
If one does not accept as proven the Henry Dudley-Captain Roger Dudley
connection, all of the descents I have found for myself are through a
single woman, Susanna Thorne, mother of Gov. Thomas Dudley. I am sure I
don't need to list one or any of those for you, as I'm certain you are
familiar with them all.
--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwy...@comcast.net
4f79-93b8-8...@s35g2000pra.googlegroups.com:
connection, all of the descents I have found for myself are through a
single woman, Susanna Thorne, mother of Gov. Thomas Dudley. I am sure I
don't need to list one or any of those for you, as I'm certain you are
familiar with them all.
--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwy...@comcast.net
Wjhonson
Oct 28, 2011, 2:22:28 AM10/28/11
to soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I don't believe this connection from Eva de Braose through some unknown Cantilupe into obscure Welsh families.
-----Original Message-----
From: James R. Yeowell <yeowellg...@googlemail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
James R. Yeowell
Oct 28, 2011, 2:50:00 AM10/28/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Will,
Because this is not an ancestral line for myself, I have yet to verify everything. However, for Anneys/Agnes Gascoigne and indeed, for Margaret Fairfax, I have used Stirnet, which I always use with caution and thus I am fully aware there could be errors here. So I should have applied a caveat on the above descent.
Sources are listed on the site and in this case, they are:
Gascoigne:
Visitation of Yorkshire 1563/64: Gaskon
Visitation of Bedfordshire 1634: Gascoigne of Cardington
"British Genealogies"
Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies, 1844, 2nd Ed., Burke: Gascoigne of Barnbow
Fairfax:
History of the Commoners, Vol. II., 1836, Burke: Fairfax of Gilling Castle
Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire, 1883, Burke: Fairfax
Visitations of Yorkshire 1563/64: Fairfax
Maunsell:
Burke's Irish Family Records, 1976: Maunsell
I am sure other more reliable sources can be used to determine whether this descent is broken or not. If you know of more reliable sources, do let me know.
Thanks for the query.
Because this is not an ancestral line for myself, I have yet to verify everything. However, for Anneys/Agnes Gascoigne and indeed, for Margaret Fairfax, I have used Stirnet, which I always use with caution and thus I am fully aware there could be errors here. So I should have applied a caveat on the above descent.
Sources are listed on the site and in this case, they are:
Gascoigne:
Visitation of Yorkshire 1563/64: Gaskon
Visitation of Bedfordshire 1634: Gascoigne of Cardington
"British Genealogies"
Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies, 1844, 2nd Ed., Burke: Gascoigne of Barnbow
Fairfax:
History of the Commoners, Vol. II., 1836, Burke: Fairfax of Gilling Castle
Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire, 1883, Burke: Fairfax
Visitations of Yorkshire 1563/64: Fairfax
Maunsell:
Burke's Irish Family Records, 1976: Maunsell
I am sure other more reliable sources can be used to determine whether this descent is broken or not. If you know of more reliable sources, do let me know.
Thanks for the query.
James R. Yeowell
Oct 28, 2011, 3:05:55 AM10/28/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Neither do I, hence why I flagged it up.
It's one of those lines I am definitely wanting to get to the bottom of, as in at least two places, it looks suspect.
As for the Welsh genealogies, I have only recently discovered my Parry links. I shall definitely be checking Bartrum and other sources, to see if anything is mentioned there. I doubt they'll enlighten me about the Cantilupe link though, which is likely wrong.
In fact, I shall remove this link.
Thanks for querying the line. It is exactly what I am after. I do not have easy access to a lot of sources at the moment and as my medieval links have only recently emerged, they're very much a work in progress.
Also, any hints as to where to look for more accurate information is welcomed.
By the way, do you know if my other posted lines look fine? At least in the medieval period anyhow.
It's one of those lines I am definitely wanting to get to the bottom of, as in at least two places, it looks suspect.
As for the Welsh genealogies, I have only recently discovered my Parry links. I shall definitely be checking Bartrum and other sources, to see if anything is mentioned there. I doubt they'll enlighten me about the Cantilupe link though, which is likely wrong.
In fact, I shall remove this link.
Thanks for querying the line. It is exactly what I am after. I do not have easy access to a lot of sources at the moment and as my medieval links have only recently emerged, they're very much a work in progress.
Also, any hints as to where to look for more accurate information is welcomed.
By the way, do you know if my other posted lines look fine? At least in the medieval period anyhow.
James R. Yeowell
Oct 28, 2011, 3:42:42 AM10/28/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Further to my previous post, I note this mysterious and likely false Cantilupe is noted as Agnes de Cantilupe and I have found her attributed as the daughter of two different Williams. Thus I have removed her completely from my database.
It actually feels good getting rid of this link too.
It actually feels good getting rid of this link too.
James R. Yeowell
Oct 28, 2011, 3:56:37 AM10/28/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Apologies for yet another post but it this mysery Miss Cantilupe came from Bartrum, as can be seen on this old soc.gen.med post: http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2005-04/1113623692
I have no idea what sources Bartram used though.
I have no idea what sources Bartram used though.
James R. Yeowell
Oct 28, 2011, 4:13:45 AM10/28/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Even the late William Addams Reitwiesner has this link in his ancestry table for Rev. Roger Parry, rector of Hinton Ampner, as shown here: http://www.wargs.com/family/parry.html.
However, I do notice another possible error in this ancestry relating to the Pembridge family. So again I approach this with caution. I notice again he uses Bartrum as a source which I have heard does contain errors in places (but then what genealogical tome doesn't?).
However, I do notice another possible error in this ancestry relating to the Pembridge family. So again I approach this with caution. I notice again he uses Bartrum as a source which I have heard does contain errors in places (but then what genealogical tome doesn't?).
John P. Ravilious
Oct 28, 2011, 9:17:28 AM10/28/11
to
On Oct 28, 3:42 am, "James R. Yeowell"
-------------------------
Dear James, Will, et al.,
You are correct in dropping this Cantilupe connection, for the
following reasons.
There was one Agnes de Cantilupo (also Cantilupe &c.) identified
in the 'Fundationis Historia et fundatoris stemma' of Boxgrove priory,
daughter of William de Cantilupo (d. 22 Feb 1250/1) and his wife
Millicent de Gournay [Monasticon Anglicanum IV:646, Num. VI; see also
CP XI:323]. She was the wife of Robert de St. John of Basing, Hants.,
with numerous English descendants (St. John, Courtenay, Beauchamp) but
no known Welsh marriage or close connections.
Agnes' brother William de Cantilupo (d. 25 Sept 1254) was his
parents' eldest son and heir, and the husband of the heiress Eve de
Braose. They had no daughter Agnes. Their issue consisted of:
1. George de Cantilupo, son and heir, m. Margaret de
Lacy but d.s.p. 18 Oct. 1273.
2. Joan de Cantilupo, coheir of her brother, m. Henry de Hastings
(her inheritance included the lordship of Abergavenny, among
other lands in Warwickshire &c.).
3. Millicent de Cantilupo, coheir of her brother, m. 1stly
John de Mohaut, 2ndly Eudo la Zouche. Her inheritance
included Harringworth, Northants., best known in
association with her Zouche descendants.
The descendants of Joan and Millicent are legion (possibly,
several legions).
Cheers,
John
Dear James, Will, et al.,
You are correct in dropping this Cantilupe connection, for the
following reasons.
There was one Agnes de Cantilupo (also Cantilupe &c.) identified
in the 'Fundationis Historia et fundatoris stemma' of Boxgrove priory,
daughter of William de Cantilupo (d. 22 Feb 1250/1) and his wife
Millicent de Gournay [Monasticon Anglicanum IV:646, Num. VI; see also
CP XI:323]. She was the wife of Robert de St. John of Basing, Hants.,
with numerous English descendants (St. John, Courtenay, Beauchamp) but
no known Welsh marriage or close connections.
Agnes' brother William de Cantilupo (d. 25 Sept 1254) was his
parents' eldest son and heir, and the husband of the heiress Eve de
Braose. They had no daughter Agnes. Their issue consisted of:
1. George de Cantilupo, son and heir, m. Margaret de
Lacy but d.s.p. 18 Oct. 1273.
2. Joan de Cantilupo, coheir of her brother, m. Henry de Hastings
(her inheritance included the lordship of Abergavenny, among
other lands in Warwickshire &c.).
3. Millicent de Cantilupo, coheir of her brother, m. 1stly
John de Mohaut, 2ndly Eudo la Zouche. Her inheritance
included Harringworth, Northants., best known in
association with her Zouche descendants.
The descendants of Joan and Millicent are legion (possibly,
several legions).
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson
Oct 28, 2011, 12:24:32 PM10/28/11
to
On Oct 27, 11:42 pm, "James C. Woodard" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net>
wrote:
< If one does not accept as proven the Henry Dudley-Captain Roger
Dudley
< connection, all of the descents I have found for myself are through
a
< single woman, Susanna Thorne, mother of Gov. Thomas Dudley. I am
sure I
< don't need to list one or any of those for you, as I'm certain you
are
< familiar with them all.
< James C. Woodard
James ~
The Henry Dudley-Capt. Roger Dudley connection remains an uproven
theory.
However, perhaps you can post one descent for Governor Thomas Dudley
through his mother, Susanna Thorne.
wrote:
< If one does not accept as proven the Henry Dudley-Captain Roger
Dudley
< connection, all of the descents I have found for myself are through
a
< single woman, Susanna Thorne, mother of Gov. Thomas Dudley. I am
sure I
< don't need to list one or any of those for you, as I'm certain you
are
< familiar with them all.
James ~
The Henry Dudley-Capt. Roger Dudley connection remains an uproven
theory.
However, perhaps you can post one descent for Governor Thomas Dudley
through his mother, Susanna Thorne.
Message has been deleted
Sholom Simon
Oct 28, 2011, 1:28:00 PM10/28/11
to Wjhonson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com
In my notes I have a cite for this unknown Cantilupe.
Peter Clement Bartrum, Welsh genealogies, A.D. 300-1400 (updated)
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026
on table/page "Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 40"
Peter Clement Bartrum, Welsh genealogies, A.D. 300-1400 (updated)
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026
on table/page "Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 40"
> Best regards,
>
> James R. Yeowell
>
>
> James R. Yeowell
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body
> of
> the message
>
>
>
>
-- Sholom
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body
> of
> the message
>
>
>
>
Douglas Richardson
Oct 28, 2011, 2:12:01 PM10/28/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
The Ur-Mother of the newsgroup, Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of
Meulan and Countess of Surrey, was the granddaughter of King Henri I
of France (died 1060). As such, she was one of highest born women to
come to England following the Conquest of England by King William the
Conqueror. She was likewise near related to Queen Maud of Flanders,
wife of King William the Conqueror, whose mother was a sister of King
Henri I of France.
Her family's near kinship to the French royal family was acknowledged
by King Louis VII of France (died 1180), who referred to two of her
sons as his kinsfolk:
1. Luchaire, Études sur les Actes de Louis VII (1885): 138, 224
(Waleran II, Count of Meulan, styled “kinsman” [cognatus/parent] by
King Louis VII in 1157).
2. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters 8 (1949): 13, footnote 6 (William de
Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey styled “kinsman” [consanguineus] by King
Louis VII).
King Louis VII of France and the sons of Isabel de Vermandois were
related in the 3rd degree of kinship (or, if you prefer, 2nd cousins).
David Crouch in his book, The Beaumont Twins (1986), pg. 12 writes
regarding the ancestry of Isabel de Vermandois' son, Waleran, Count of
Meulan:
"We have proof in Geoffrey of Monmouth's writings that Count Waleran
was well aware of his ancestry; 'sprung as you are from the race of
the most renowned King Charles ...', was Geoffrey's opening compliment
to Waleran in his great work on the legendary kings of Britain." END
OF QUOTE.
Crouch's other comments regarding Count Waleran's illustrious ancestry
may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QC25F9M6ZMYC&pg=PA12
The Ur-Mother of the newsgroup, Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of
Meulan and Countess of Surrey, was the granddaughter of King Henri I
of France (died 1060). As such, she was one of highest born women to
come to England following the Conquest of England by King William the
Conqueror. She was likewise near related to Queen Maud of Flanders,
wife of King William the Conqueror, whose mother was a sister of King
Henri I of France.
Her family's near kinship to the French royal family was acknowledged
by King Louis VII of France (died 1180), who referred to two of her
sons as his kinsfolk:
1. Luchaire, Études sur les Actes de Louis VII (1885): 138, 224
(Waleran II, Count of Meulan, styled “kinsman” [cognatus/parent] by
King Louis VII in 1157).
2. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters 8 (1949): 13, footnote 6 (William de
Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey styled “kinsman” [consanguineus] by King
Louis VII).
King Louis VII of France and the sons of Isabel de Vermandois were
related in the 3rd degree of kinship (or, if you prefer, 2nd cousins).
David Crouch in his book, The Beaumont Twins (1986), pg. 12 writes
regarding the ancestry of Isabel de Vermandois' son, Waleran, Count of
Meulan:
"We have proof in Geoffrey of Monmouth's writings that Count Waleran
was well aware of his ancestry; 'sprung as you are from the race of
the most renowned King Charles ...', was Geoffrey's opening compliment
to Waleran in his great work on the legendary kings of Britain." END
OF QUOTE.
Crouch's other comments regarding Count Waleran's illustrious ancestry
may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QC25F9M6ZMYC&pg=PA12
Message has been deleted
Wjhonson
Oct 28, 2011, 3:47:07 PM10/28/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
There is evidently a descent to us French Canadians through the Menteith gateway
At least I have sketches of that in my data. I'll try to post something in the next few days.
Of course as we all know, there are one or two generations there that are elusive, but there's no question that John Menteith descends from this same line of Menteiths, just a question of exactly where he goes. But his placement does not affect the descent from E-Ze-Baal
James R. Yeowell
Oct 28, 2011, 3:55:02 PM10/28/11
to
John,
Thank you for this.
Just one question though. As myself and Sholom have noted, Bartrum notes a _______ Cantilupe, daughter of Sir William Cantilupe (and it's not one of the crossed out entries either). Although I am obviously doubting this link, I was curious as to his source. He must have seen something somewhere that suggested Hywel "Fychan"'s wife was from the Cantilupe family? He does not call her Agnes/Annes either.
Any ideas?
Thank you for this.
Just one question though. As myself and Sholom have noted, Bartrum notes a _______ Cantilupe, daughter of Sir William Cantilupe (and it's not one of the crossed out entries either). Although I am obviously doubting this link, I was curious as to his source. He must have seen something somewhere that suggested Hywel "Fychan"'s wife was from the Cantilupe family? He does not call her Agnes/Annes either.
Any ideas?
Doug
Oct 28, 2011, 3:44:15 PM10/28/11
to
> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body
> > of
> > the message
>
> -- Sholo
Apparently an assumed name, see Bartrum, Peter, C., Welsh Genealogies,
> > of
> > the message
>
> -- Sholo
AD 300-1400, Cardiff, (1974),-v 3-p 125.
Apparently assumed the surname from his paternal grandmother alleged
to be a daughter of the William de Cauntelou who died about 1250 (by
Millicent de Gournay). Have not studied this.
Doug Smith
Message has been deleted
S�im� mac Liam
Oct 28, 2011, 10:20:36 PM10/28/11
to
Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote in news:e38fde39-23a2-
431d-8464-b...@x16g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
1 Isabel de Vermandois
+Robert de Beaumont
2 Isabel de Beaumont
+Gilbert de Clare
3 Richard de Clare
+Aoife of Leinster
4 Isabel de Clare
+William Marshall
5 Isabel Marshal
+Gilbert de Clare
6 Richard de Clare
+Maud de Lacy
7 Thomas de Clare
+Juliana fitz Maurice Fitz-Gerald
8 Margaret de Clare
+Bartholomew de Badlesmere
9 Margaret de Badlesmere
+John de Vere
10 Margaret de Vere
+Nicolas de Lovaine
11 Margaret de Lovaine
+Philip de Seynteclere
12 Thomas St. Claire
+Margaret Hoo
13 Edith St. Clair
+Richard Harcourt
14 Alice Harcourt
+William Bessiles
15 Elizabeth Bessiles
+Richard Fettiplace
16 Anne Fettiplace
+Edward Purefoy
17 Mary Purefoy
+Thomas Thorne
18 Susanna Thorne
+Roger Dudley
19 Thomas Dudley
--
Saint S�im� mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
431d-8464-b...@x16g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
+Robert de Beaumont
2 Isabel de Beaumont
+Gilbert de Clare
3 Richard de Clare
+Aoife of Leinster
4 Isabel de Clare
+William Marshall
5 Isabel Marshal
+Gilbert de Clare
6 Richard de Clare
+Maud de Lacy
7 Thomas de Clare
+Juliana fitz Maurice Fitz-Gerald
8 Margaret de Clare
+Bartholomew de Badlesmere
9 Margaret de Badlesmere
+John de Vere
10 Margaret de Vere
+Nicolas de Lovaine
11 Margaret de Lovaine
+Philip de Seynteclere
12 Thomas St. Claire
+Margaret Hoo
13 Edith St. Clair
+Richard Harcourt
14 Alice Harcourt
+William Bessiles
15 Elizabeth Bessiles
+Richard Fettiplace
16 Anne Fettiplace
+Edward Purefoy
17 Mary Purefoy
+Thomas Thorne
18 Susanna Thorne
+Roger Dudley
19 Thomas Dudley
--
Saint S�im� mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
Wjhonson
Oct 28, 2011, 11:09:43 PM10/28/11
to gwy...@comcast.nospam.net, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Margaret, Maud, Maud, Margaret
Not four Margaret's in a row
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
Séimí mac Liam
Oct 29, 2011, 12:42:26 AM10/29/11
to
Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote in news:mailman.7.1319857793.5189.gen-
medi...@rootsweb.com:
Indeed you are right, though it did take some head scratching to see how
I managed to get that wrong. It seems to be a transcription of the
Seventh edition of Ancestral Roots. Though how Weis and Faris got it
wrong is beyond me because the source they cite(CP) has both Mauds as
Maud and not Margaret. I can only plead that I had not yet aquired my
copy of CP at the time I took them at their word. I have made the change
and thank you kindly for the correction.
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
medi...@rootsweb.com:
I managed to get that wrong. It seems to be a transcription of the
Seventh edition of Ancestral Roots. Though how Weis and Faris got it
wrong is beyond me because the source they cite(CP) has both Mauds as
Maud and not Margaret. I can only plead that I had not yet aquired my
copy of CP at the time I took them at their word. I have made the change
and thank you kindly for the correction.
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Wanda Thacker
Oct 29, 2011, 1:23:31 AM10/29/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Here are both of my descents from two children of Isabelle Vermandois', to the best of my knowledge. There are a few of the later generations that have an iffy spot or two in them. I am not stating that this is perfect.
Isabel De Vermandois 24th great grandmother>William De Warenne
Ada DeWarrenne>Henry of Huntingdon
Margaret De Huntingdon>Humphrey De
Bohun
Henry De Bohun>Maud Fitz Piers De
Mandeville
Humphrey De Bohun>Maud Eve De
Lusignan
Humphrey De Bohun>Eleanor De Broase
Humphrey De Bohun>Maud De Fiennes
Humphrey De Bohun>Isabella Elizabeth
Plantagenet
William De Bohun>Elizabeth
Badlesmere
Elizabeth De Bohun>Richard FitzAlan
Elizabeth FitzAlan>Thomas Mowbray
Margaret De Mowbray>Robert Howard
John Howard>Catherine Moleyns
Thomas Howard>Agnes Tilney
William Howard>Margaret Gamage
William Howard>Francis Gouldwell
Francis Howard>Jane Monson
John Howard>Margaret Clarke
Henry Howard>Elizabeth Moss
Ann Howard>William Tunnell
Elizabeth Tunnell>George Russell
Ball
Hester Ball>Jesse Fuller
Sarah Fuller>Moses Hayton
James Madison Hayton>Elizabeth
Tennesse Harris
Nancy Jane Hayton>George Washington
Lilly
Mary Elizabeth Lilly>Frank Clifton
Taylor Sr.
Frank Clifton Taylor>Judith Ann
Harless
Wanda L (Taylor)Thacker
Isabel De Vermandois>William De
Warenne
William De Warenne>Ela Talvas
Isabella De Warenne>Hamelin
Plantagenet
William Warenne>Maud Marshall
John De Warenne>Alice Le Brun
Lusignan
William De Warenne>Joan De Vere
Alice De Warenne>Edmund FitzAlan
Richard FitzAlan>Eleanor Plantagenet
Richard FitzAlan>Elizabeth De Bohun
Elizabeth FitzAlan>Thomas Mowbray
Margaret De Mowbray>Robert Howard
John Howard>Catherine Moleyns
The rest of the generations are a
repeat of above
Thomas Howard
William Howard
William Howard
Francis Howard
John Howard
Henry Howard
Ann Howard
Elizabeth Tunnell
Hester Ball
Sarah Fuller
James Madison Hayton
Nancy Jane Hayton
Mary Elizabeth Lilly
Frank Clifton Taylor
Wanda L (Taylor)Thacker
Wanda L Thacker
________________________________
From: Séimí mac Liam <gwy...@comcast.nospam.net>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 12:42 AM
-------------------------------
Wanda Thacker
Oct 29, 2011, 1:48:20 AM10/29/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Origin of things is tricky. You could extrapolate and say that the German meaning derived from the place Ur. Not likely, but possible. You would just have to prove that Germanic speaking people had contact with and knowledge of the Middle Eastern cultures, which were definitely influenced my Mesopotamian culture.
Wanda
________________________________
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: "Ur Mother"
On Oct 27, 2:55 pm, merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net wrote:
> Dear Leo, Wander, Johnny et al
>
> Years ago there was a book written by James Michener called "The
> Source", which dealt with an archaeological dig in the Middle East at
> or near Tyre. The story followed a young man and woman who were the
> archaeeologists on this dig (who inevitably fell in love and lived
> happily ever after). Each level of the dig they reached contained a
> family from whom both of them were (unknowingly) descended, and when
> they eventually reached the bottom of the many civilizations who had
> lived there, they discovered the habitation called "Ur" back in the
> days of the cave-man. It was fascinating, and the catylist for my
> interest in genealogy. So this is probably why Isabel de Vermandois is
> referred to as the "Ur Mother", because she is ancestor to so many of
> us.
>
As interesting as Michener's "The Source" was, I doubt that he coined
the term "ur-mother" or that it refers to a place (real or fictional)
called Ur. In German genealogy, the term "uradel" is quite common,
with "adel" meaning "nolbility" and the prefix "ur" indicating
"ancient, or original". The term "ur-mother" is probably derived from
the German usage.
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2011, 2:12:09 AM10/29/11
to wand...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This name for Maud is whacky.
Her *father* was Geoffrey fitzPeter, Earl of Essex
She would be Maud "filia Geoffrey" and she was Countess of Essex suo jure as well at his 1213 death.
I have no idea how you also got Mandeville in there, her paternal grandmother
You wrote: "Henry De Bohun>Maud Fitz Piers De
Mandeville"
-----Original Message-----
From: Wanda Thacker <wand...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2011 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
From: Séimí mac Liam <gwy...@comcast.nospam.net>
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2011, 2:14:31 AM10/29/11
to wand...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I think you'd be hard pressed to find her referred to contemperanously as "Plantagenet"
However she was referred to as Elizabeth of Rhuddlan (her birthplace) as castle in Flintshire Wales
and also Countess of Hereford
You wrote: "Humphrey De Bohun>Isabella Elizabeth
Plantagenet"
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2011 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2011 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
From: Séimí mac Liam <gwy...@comcast.nospam.net>
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2011, 2:17:55 AM10/29/11
to wand...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sources for this part which is fairly suspect.
What do you have?
You wrote: "Francis Howard>Jane Monson
John Howard>Margaret Clarke
Henry Howard>Elizabeth Moss"
Henry Howard>Elizabeth Moss"
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2011 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2011 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
From: Séimí mac Liam <gwy...@comcast.nospam.net>
Douglas Richardson
Oct 29, 2011, 8:24:03 AM10/29/11
to
On Oct 29, 12:12 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
< This name for Maud is whacky.
< Her *father* was Geoffrey fitzPeter, Earl of Essex
< She would be Maud "filia Geoffrey" and she was Countess of Essex suo
jure as well at his 1213 death.
< I have no idea how you also got Mandeville in there, her paternal
grandmother
<
< You wrote: "Henry De Bohun>Maud Fitz Piers De Mandeville"
Wanda is correct that Henry de Bohun's wife was known as Maud de
< This name for Maud is whacky.
< Her *father* was Geoffrey fitzPeter, Earl of Essex
< She would be Maud "filia Geoffrey" and she was Countess of Essex suo
jure as well at his 1213 death.
< I have no idea how you also got Mandeville in there, her paternal
grandmother
<
< You wrote: "Henry De Bohun>Maud Fitz Piers De Mandeville"
Mandeville.
For instances of Maud, Countess of Essex and Hereford, being styled
Maud de Mandeville in contemporary records, see Cal. Charters Rolls 1
(1903): 196; Davis, Rotuli Hugonis de Welles Episcopi Lincolniensis
1209–1235 3 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 9) (1914): 32; Hassall, Cartulary of
St. Mary Clekenwell (Camden 3rd Ser. 71) (1949): 126; Duchy of
Lancaster, Descriptive List (with Index) of Cartæ Miscellaneæ, Lists
and Indexes, Supplementary Series, No. V, vol. 3 (1964): 85; Mason,
Beauchamp Cartulary Charters (Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 43) (1980): 187–188.
This point is covered in a footnote found in my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry, 2nd edition, published in 2011.
steven perkins
Oct 29, 2011, 10:10:50 AM10/29/11
to Wanda Thacker, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
What evidence is there that the Ann Howard who married William Tunnell
(Guilaume Tonnellier) was a member of the Ducal Howard family? I'd
like to see it since this would be my connection, but I have never
found any record evidence of her ancestry. I don't count "Notable
Southern Families" as evidence in this case.
Regards,
Steven
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 AM, Wanda Thacker <wand...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here are both of my descents from two children of Isabelle Vermandois', to the best of my knowledge. There are a few of the later generations that have an iffy spot or two in them. I am not stating that this is perfect.
>
> Isabel De Vermandois 24th great grandmother>William De Warenne
> Ada DeWarrenne>Henry of Huntingdon
> Margaret De Huntingdon>Humphrey De
> Bohun
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPe...@gmail.com http://stevencperkins.com/
Indigenous Peoples' Rights http://intelligent-internet.info/law/ipr2.html
Indigenous & Ethnic Minority Legal News http://iemlnews.blogspot.com/
Online Journal of Genetics and Genealogy http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
S.C. Perkins' Genealogy Page http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
S.C. Perkins' Genealogy Blog http://scpgen.blogspot.com/
(Guilaume Tonnellier) was a member of the Ducal Howard family? I'd
like to see it since this would be my connection, but I have never
found any record evidence of her ancestry. I don't count "Notable
Southern Families" as evidence in this case.
Regards,
Steven
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 AM, Wanda Thacker <wand...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here are both of my descents from two children of Isabelle Vermandois', to the best of my knowledge. There are a few of the later generations that have an iffy spot or two in them. I am not stating that this is perfect.
>
> Isabel De Vermandois 24th great grandmother>William De Warenne
> Ada DeWarrenne>Henry of Huntingdon
> Margaret De Huntingdon>Humphrey De
> Bohun
> Henry De Bohun>Maud Fitz Piers De
> Mandeville
> Mandeville
Steven C. Perkins SCPe...@gmail.com http://stevencperkins.com/
Indigenous Peoples' Rights http://intelligent-internet.info/law/ipr2.html
Indigenous & Ethnic Minority Legal News http://iemlnews.blogspot.com/
Online Journal of Genetics and Genealogy http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
S.C. Perkins' Genealogy Page http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
S.C. Perkins' Genealogy Blog http://scpgen.blogspot.com/
Christopher Ingham
Oct 29, 2011, 4:37:35 PM10/29/11
to
On Oct 25, 6:49 pm, John Watson <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 25, 10:26 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> > hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> > line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>
> According to my genealogy software I have 152 lines of descent from
> Isabel de Vermandois. Do you need them all?
>
I still haven’t learned how to use the Master Genealogist program I’ve
had for three years now (no laughing, please), but I know I must have
several descents from E. de V. through Robert Abell and Diana Skipwith
Dale, and probably through my maternal grandmother’s ancestors in
Central America, many of whom were colonial governors, but I’ve run
into all kinds of problems in trying to establish their medieval
ancestry.
Christopher Ingham.
>
> Regards,
> John
> On Oct 25, 10:26 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> > hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> > line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Dear Douglas,
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>
> According to my genealogy software I have 152 lines of descent from
> Isabel de Vermandois. Do you need them all?
>
I still haven’t learned how to use the Master Genealogist program I’ve
had for three years now (no laughing, please), but I know I must have
several descents from E. de V. through Robert Abell and Diana Skipwith
Dale, and probably through my maternal grandmother’s ancestors in
Central America, many of whom were colonial governors, but I’ve run
into all kinds of problems in trying to establish their medieval
ancestry.
Christopher Ingham.
>
> Regards,
> John
Message has been deleted
Maree Gordon
Oct 29, 2011, 10:28:32 PM10/29/11
to soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Hello from New Zealand
Have been watching these posts on our *Isabel de Vermandois - UR
Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
She is indeed descended from ancient UR lineages pre Biblical
times......
Her first forebear that I have in the archives is.....
*Ur ben Kesed
*Ora bat Ur = *K Reu of Lagash
*K Serug of Ur and Agade
B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea.
*K Nahor of Ur and Agade = *Jaska
*K Terah of Agade
*+Abraham of Genesis
Two Sons
*Midian of Abraham born
*K Isaac of Goshen born
Myself I descend from the progenitor - *Ur ben Kesed - at least 15
times....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now for the *SEAGRAVES
Progenitor.....??
*Hereward de Segrave - B 1115? Leicestershire, England
A Son
*Gilbert de Seagrave.. born 1155? in Leicestershire, England
A Son
*Stephen de Seagrave born 1175? in Leicestershire, England
m/d *Rohese deSpencer, 1210? in Leicestershire, England
Died November 1241 in Lancashire, England
A Son
*Gilbert de Seagrave
m/d *Amabilia de Constable/Chaucombe, 1225? d/o *Sir Robt Chaucombe &
*Julienne
A Son
*Sir Nicholas de Seagrave born 1235? in Leicestershire, England
m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
Children
*Baron John de Seagrave born 1255? in Leicestershire, England
Nicholas de Seagrave born 1260? in Seagrave, Nthampton
*Eleanor Seagrave born 1270? in Seagrave, Leics
*Sir Nicholas de Seagrave - Dd 1295? Chaucombe, Northampton, England
Kind regards from, Maree S. Gordon Matamata New Zealand
tap...@clear.net.nz / SKYPE matamatamaree
Have been watching these posts on our *Isabel de Vermandois - UR
Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
She is indeed descended from ancient UR lineages pre Biblical
times......
Her first forebear that I have in the archives is.....
*Ur ben Kesed
*Ora bat Ur = *K Reu of Lagash
*K Serug of Ur and Agade
B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea.
*K Nahor of Ur and Agade = *Jaska
*K Terah of Agade
*+Abraham of Genesis
Two Sons
*Midian of Abraham born
*K Isaac of Goshen born
Myself I descend from the progenitor - *Ur ben Kesed - at least 15
times....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now for the *SEAGRAVES
Progenitor.....??
*Hereward de Segrave - B 1115? Leicestershire, England
A Son
*Gilbert de Seagrave.. born 1155? in Leicestershire, England
A Son
*Stephen de Seagrave born 1175? in Leicestershire, England
m/d *Rohese deSpencer, 1210? in Leicestershire, England
Died November 1241 in Lancashire, England
A Son
*Gilbert de Seagrave
m/d *Amabilia de Constable/Chaucombe, 1225? d/o *Sir Robt Chaucombe &
*Julienne
A Son
*Sir Nicholas de Seagrave born 1235? in Leicestershire, England
m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
Children
*Baron John de Seagrave born 1255? in Leicestershire, England
Nicholas de Seagrave born 1260? in Seagrave, Nthampton
*Eleanor Seagrave born 1270? in Seagrave, Leics
*Sir Nicholas de Seagrave - Dd 1295? Chaucombe, Northampton, England
Kind regards from, Maree S. Gordon Matamata New Zealand
tap...@clear.net.nz / SKYPE matamatamaree
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2011, 10:46:47 PM10/29/11
to tap...@clear.net.nz, soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
While the bible states that Serug died when he was 230, we have no firm ground upon which to determine what year that occurred.
You wrote: "*K Serug of Ur and Agade
Maree Gordon
Oct 29, 2011, 10:51:03 PM10/29/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This was NOT FROM anything whatsoever to do with Biblical connections
- merely a time frame that some identify with.......
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-
> req...@rootsweb.com
- merely a time frame that some identify with.......
> req...@rootsweb.com
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2011, 11:16:01 PM10/29/11
to tap...@clear.net.nz, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
This is not a time frame which many identify with, it's completely made up out of fiction and fiber board
Maree Gordon
Oct 29, 2011, 11:27:55 PM10/29/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Does the same apply to the Great Ice Age / Gwondanaland / Dinasours
etc etc - ad finitum / ad nauseum .....??
etc etc - ad finitum / ad nauseum .....??
Wjhonson
Oct 29, 2011, 11:53:00 PM10/29/11
to tap...@clear.net.nz, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Yes if you're going to start telling us about your specific ancestors who lived then.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maree Gordon <tap...@clear.net.nz>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Isabel de VERMANDOIS - UR Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
Does the same apply to the Great Ice Age / Gwondanaland / Dinasours
etc etc - ad finitum / ad nauseum .....??
> Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
> This is not a time frame which many identify with, it's completely
> made up out of fiction and fiber board
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maree Gordon <tap...@clear.net.nz>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:51 pm
> Subject: Re: Isabel de VERMANDOIS - UR Mother / *Sir Nicholas de
> Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
>
> This was NOT FROM anything whatsoever to do with Biblical connections
> - merely a time frame that some identify with.......
>
> > While the bible states that Serug died when he was 230, we have no
> > firm ground upon which to determine what year that occurred.
norenxaq
Oct 30, 2011, 1:44:28 AM10/30/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Maree Gordon wrote:
>Hello from New Zealand
>
>Have been watching these posts on our *Isabel de Vermandois - UR
>Hello from New Zealand
>
>Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
>
>
>She is indeed descended from ancient UR lineages pre Biblical
>times......
>
>Her first forebear that I have in the archives is.....
>
>*Ur ben Kesed
>
>*Ora bat Ur = *K Reu of Lagash
>
>*K Serug of Ur and Agade
>B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
>Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
>m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea.
>
>
this is a recent interpretation of biblical genealogy. while the author
>times......
>
>Her first forebear that I have in the archives is.....
>
>*Ur ben Kesed
>
>*Ora bat Ur = *K Reu of Lagash
>
>*K Serug of Ur and Agade
>B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
>Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
>m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea.
>
>
of Abraham's genealogy suggested he was from Ur, the patriarch and his
afamily was never mentioned as being king of that city or any other, nor
his ancestors...
>*K Nahor of Ur and Agade = *Jaska
>
>*K Terah of Agade
>
>*+Abraham of Genesis
>Two Sons
>*Midian of Abraham born
>*K Isaac of Goshen born
>
>
>
norenxaq
Oct 30, 2011, 1:51:47 AM10/30/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Christopher Ingham
Oct 30, 2011, 11:51:56 AM10/30/11
to
On Oct 29, 4:37 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Leo van de Pas has kindly informed me that I have at least 138 lines
of descent from Elizabeth de Vermandois via Robert Abell and Diana
Skipwith.
Below is one line that I was fairly easily able to reconstruct from my
unwieldy 524-page pedigree chart in 8-pt. font for Robert Abell (I
really must learn how to use a program soon).
Elizabeth de Vermandois = Robert de Beaumont, earl of Leicester
Isabel de Beaumont = Gilbert de Clare, earl of Pembroke
Richard de Clare, earl of Pembroke = Aoife [Eva] of Leinster
Isabel de Clare, countess of Pembroke = William Marshal, earl of
Pembroke
Eve Marshal = William de Briouse, baron of Kington
Maud de Briouse = Roger de Mortimer, baron of Wigmore
Iseult de Mortimer = Hugh de Audley, knt., of Stratton
Hugh de Audley, earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare
Margaret de Audley = Ralph de Stafford, earl of Stafford
Katherine de Stafford = John de Sutton, knt., of Dudley
John de Sutton, knt., of Dudley = Alice le Despenser
John Sutton, knt., of Dudley = Constance Blount
John Sutton, K.G., 1st Lord Dudley = Elizabeth Berkeley
Jane [Joan] Sutton = Thomas Mainwaring
Cecily Mainwaring = John Cotton
George Cotton = Mary Onley
Richard Cotton, esq., of Combermere = Mary Mainwaring
Frances Cotton = George Abell, gent., of Hemington
Robert Abell = Joanna
Benjamin Abell = Hannah [Baldwin?]
Hannah Abell = Ebenezer Metcalf
Jabez Metcalf = Sybil Hyde (Mayflower descendant)
Joseph Metcalf = Clarissa Thomas (Mayflower descendant)
Joseph J. Metcalf = Hannah Amanda Stevens
Martin Charles Metcalf = Jane Elizabeth Cobb
Caroline Metcalf = Ellsworth E. Seward
Eunice Louise Seward = Clare Downing Fishburn
Carolyn Fishburn = Charles Ernest Ingham
Christopher David Ingham
Christopher Ingham
wrote:
of descent from Elizabeth de Vermandois via Robert Abell and Diana
Skipwith.
Below is one line that I was fairly easily able to reconstruct from my
unwieldy 524-page pedigree chart in 8-pt. font for Robert Abell (I
really must learn how to use a program soon).
Elizabeth de Vermandois = Robert de Beaumont, earl of Leicester
Isabel de Beaumont = Gilbert de Clare, earl of Pembroke
Richard de Clare, earl of Pembroke = Aoife [Eva] of Leinster
Isabel de Clare, countess of Pembroke = William Marshal, earl of
Pembroke
Eve Marshal = William de Briouse, baron of Kington
Maud de Briouse = Roger de Mortimer, baron of Wigmore
Iseult de Mortimer = Hugh de Audley, knt., of Stratton
Hugh de Audley, earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare
Margaret de Audley = Ralph de Stafford, earl of Stafford
Katherine de Stafford = John de Sutton, knt., of Dudley
John de Sutton, knt., of Dudley = Alice le Despenser
John Sutton, knt., of Dudley = Constance Blount
John Sutton, K.G., 1st Lord Dudley = Elizabeth Berkeley
Jane [Joan] Sutton = Thomas Mainwaring
Cecily Mainwaring = John Cotton
George Cotton = Mary Onley
Richard Cotton, esq., of Combermere = Mary Mainwaring
Frances Cotton = George Abell, gent., of Hemington
Robert Abell = Joanna
Benjamin Abell = Hannah [Baldwin?]
Hannah Abell = Ebenezer Metcalf
Jabez Metcalf = Sybil Hyde (Mayflower descendant)
Joseph Metcalf = Clarissa Thomas (Mayflower descendant)
Joseph J. Metcalf = Hannah Amanda Stevens
Martin Charles Metcalf = Jane Elizabeth Cobb
Caroline Metcalf = Ellsworth E. Seward
Eunice Louise Seward = Clare Downing Fishburn
Carolyn Fishburn = Charles Ernest Ingham
Christopher David Ingham
Christopher Ingham
Message has been deleted
Tony Hoskins
Oct 29, 2011, 5:58:12 PM10/29/11
to Tim Forsythe, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I'd venture to guess that 98% of us here know we descend from Isabel de Vermandois. A subject of greater interest might be how many times. My version of PAF peters out at 100.
Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal gateway?
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History and Genealogy Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
211 E Street
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tim Forsythe
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:56 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
My line of descent from Isabel de Vermaindois can be found here:
http://ancestorsnow.com/ancestors/dlist_9.php
and here:
Generation 1
[1] Timothy James Forsythe (1958-)
Generation 2
[2] William David Forsythe (1918-)
Generation 3
[4] William Henry Forsythe (1893-1974)
[5] Minnie Elizabeth Humphrey (1894-1990)
Generation 4
[8] William Marion Forsyth (1871-1904)
[11] Phoebe Jane Compton (1857-1938)
Generation 5
[17] Martha Lurinda McFarland (1846-1920)
[23] Julia Ann Taylor (1824-1913)
Generation 6
[35] Eliza McFarland (1814-~1882)
[46] Bennet Taylor (1794-1853)
Generation 7
[71] Jane Claypool (1789-1846)
[92] Robert Wiley Taylor (1769-1818)
Generation 8
[142] Jesse Claypool (1752-1833)
[184] Abijah Taylor (1740-1814)
Generation 9
[284] James Claypole, Senior (1701-1789)
[368] Josiah Taylor (1701-1781)
Generation 10
[568] James Claypool (1664-1706)
[737] Wait Clapp (1670-1722)
Generation 11
[1136] James Claypoole, of Philadelphia (1634-1687)
[1475] Sarah Newberry (1650-1716)
Generation 12
[2272] Sir John Claypoole (1595-~1664)
[2950] Capt. Benjamin Newberry (1624-1689)
Generation 13
[4545] Lady Dorothy Wingfield (~1565-1619)
[5900] Thomas Newberry (1594-1635)
Generation 14
[9090] Sir Robert Wingfield, Esq. (~1532-1580)
[11800] Richard Newberry (~1557-~1629)
Generation 15
[18180] Sir Robert Wingfield, Esq. (~1490-~1575)
[23600] Richard Newborough, of Worth Francis (~1517-<1569)
Generation 16
[36360] Sir Henry Wingfield (~1452-1484)
[47200] Walter Newburgh (~1487-1517)
Generation 17
[72720] Sir Robert Wingfield (1403-~1452)
[72721] Lady Elizabeth Goushill (~1402-)
[94400] Thomas Newburgh, Esq. (~1445-1513)
Generation 18
[145440] Sir Robert Wingfield, of Letheringham (-1409)
[145443] Duchess Elizabeth D'Arundelle (~1375-1425)
[188800] John Newburgh, Esq. (~1400-1484)
Generation 19
[290881] Margaret Hastings (~1397-)
[290886] Sir Richard fitz Alan, 10th Earl of Arundel (1346-1397)
[290887] Elizabeth de Bohun (~1345-1385)
[377600] John Newburgh, Esq. (~1370->1439)
Generation 20
[581762] Sir Hugh Hastings (>1328-1369)
[581772] Sir Richard fitz Alan, 9th Earl of Arundel (~1313-1376)
[581773] Eleanor Plantagenet (1318-1372)
[581774] William de Bohun, 7th Earl of Northampton (~1310-1360)
[581775] Elizabeth de Badlesmere (1313-1356)
[755201] Margaret Poyntz (~1340-)
Generation 21
[1163524] Sir Hugh Hastings, of Gressing Hall (~1313-1347)
[1163525] Margery Foliot (<1313-1349)
[1163544] Sir Edmund fitz Alan, Knt., 8th Earl of Arundel (1285-1326)
[1163545] Alice de Warenne (~1287-~1330)
[1163547] Maud de Chaworth (~1282->1344)
[1163548] Humphrey de Bohun, VIII, 4th Earl of Hereford (~1276-1322)
[1163551] Margaret de Clare (<1288-1333)
[1510402] Sir Nicholas de Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz (~1320-1376)
Generation 22
[2327048] John Hastings, 1st Baron Hastings of Abergavenny (1262-1313)
[2327049] Isabel le Despenser (~1276-1334)
[2327051] Joan de Braose (~1283-<1324)
[2327088] Sir Richard fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel (1267-1302)
[2327090] Sir William de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey (1256-1286)
[2327091] Joan de Vere (~1256-1293)
[2327095] Isabel de Beauchamp (~1258-1306)
[2327096] Humphrey de Bohun, VII, 3rd Earl of Hereford (~1249-1298)Ple
[2327102] Sir Thomas de Clare, Governor of London (~1251-1288)Ire
[2327103] Juliana fitz Maurice (~1267-1300)
[3020804] Hugh de Poyntz, 3rd Lord Poyntz (~1294-<1337)
Generation 23
[4654096] Henry de Hastings, Baron Hastings (~1235-<1268)
[4654097] Joan de Cantelou (~1238-)
[4654099] Isabel de Beauchamp (~1258-1306) (same as 2327095)
[4654102] William de Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower (~1253-<1326)
[4654177] Isabella de Mortimer (~1246-<1292)
[4654180] John de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey (1231-1304)
[4654182] Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford (1240-1296)
[4654190] William de Beauchamp, 9th Earl of Warwick (1237-~1298)
[4654191] Maud fitz John (~1237-~1301)
[4654192] Sir Humphrey de Bohun, VI, Earl of Hereford and Essex
(~1223-1265)
[4654193] Eleanor de Braiose (~1223-)
[4654204] Sir Richard de Clare, 8th Earl of Clare (1222-1262)
[4654205] Maud de Lacy, Countess of Lincoln (~1222-<1289)
[4654207] Maud de Prendergast (~1242-)
[6041609] Elizabeth la Zouche (~1270-~1297)
Generation 24
[9308193] Ada, of Huntingdon (~1195->1241)
[9308195] Eva de Braiose (~1223-1255)
[9308204] William de Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower (1220-1291)
[9308355] Maud de Braoise (~1230-<1301)
[9308360] William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey (1166-1240)
[9308361] Maud Marshal, Countess of Norfolk (<1195-1248)
[9308365] Hawise de Quincy (~1201-)
[9308381] Isabel Maudit (1227-<1268)
[9308383] Isabel Bigod (-)
[9308384] Humphrey de Bohun, V, 2nd Earl of Hereford (<1208-1275)
[9308385] Maud d'Eu (~1208-1241)
[9308387] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246)
[9308408] Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl of Clare (~1180-1230)
[9308409] Isabel Marshal (1200-1240)
[9308410] John de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln (~1191-1240)
[9308411] Margaret de Quincy (~1195-~1266)
[9308414] Gerald de Prendergast (~1200-1251)
[12083219] Milicent de Cantelou (~1238-~1299)
Generation 25
[18616386] David, Earl of Huntingdon (~1144-1219)
[18616391] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246) (same as 9308387)
[18616408] John de Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower (1198-<1232)
[18616711] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246) (same as 18616391)
[18616721] Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey (-1199)
[18616723] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220) (same as
37232783)
[18616731] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235)
[18616762] William Maudit, Lord of Hanslope and Hartley Maudit
(~1193-1257)
[18616763] Alice de Newburgh (~1193-~1246)
[18616767] Maud Marshal, Countess of Norfolk (<1195-1248) (same as
9308361)
[18616768] Henry de Bohun, 1st Earl of Hereford (1176-1220)
[18616771] Alice d'Eu, Countess of Eu (~1178-1246)
[18616775] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220)
[18616817] Amice fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester (~1155-1225)
[18616819] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220) (same as
18616775)
[18616821] Maud de Clare (~1170-)
[18616822] Robert de Quincy, II, Earl of Winchester (-1217)
[18616829] Maud de Quincy (1173-)
[24166439] Eva de Braiose (~1223-1255) (same as 9308195)
Generation 26
[37232773] Ada de Warenne (~1114-1178)
[37232817] Maud de Clare (~1170-) (same as 18616821)
[37233442] William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey (1118-1148)
[37233462] Robert de Beaumont, III, 3rd Earl of Leicester (<1135-1190)
[37233524] Robert Maudit, Lord of Hanslope (~1163-1222)
[37233526] Waleran de Newburgh, 4th Earl of Warwick (<1153-1204)
[37233537] Margaret de Huntingdon (~1141-1201)
[37233543] Maud de Warenne (~1162-1207)
[37233550] Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (~1130-~1176)
[37233635] Hawise de Beaumont (~1131-1197)
[37233643] Amice fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester (~1155-1225)
(same as 18616817)
[37233645] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235) (same as 18616731)
[37233659] Basile de Clare (~1158-~1203)
Generation 27
[74465547] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
[74466885] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
[74466924] Sir Robert de Beaumont, II, 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104-1168)
[74467049] Isabelle de St. Liz (~1140-)
[74467053] Gundred de Warenne, Countess of Warwick (>1119->1166)
[74467075] Ada de Warenne (~1114-1178) (same as 37232773)
[74467087] Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey (-1199) (same as
18616721)
[74467101] Isabel de Beaumont (~1103-)
[74467270] Sir Robert de Beaumont, II, 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104-1168)
[74467318] Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (~1130-~1176) (same
as 37233550)
Generation 28
[148934099] Isabelle de Beaumont (<1123-)
[148934107] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
[148934203] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
[148934541] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
Tim Forsythe
http://AncestorsNow.com
https://plus.google.com/u/0/103395306698731049003/posts
On 10/24/2011 10:26 PM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> ...
Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal gateway?
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History and Genealogy Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
211 E Street
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tim Forsythe
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:56 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
http://ancestorsnow.com/ancestors/dlist_9.php
and here:
Generation 1
[1] Timothy James Forsythe (1958-)
Generation 2
[2] William David Forsythe (1918-)
Generation 3
[4] William Henry Forsythe (1893-1974)
[5] Minnie Elizabeth Humphrey (1894-1990)
Generation 4
[8] William Marion Forsyth (1871-1904)
[11] Phoebe Jane Compton (1857-1938)
Generation 5
[17] Martha Lurinda McFarland (1846-1920)
[23] Julia Ann Taylor (1824-1913)
Generation 6
[35] Eliza McFarland (1814-~1882)
[46] Bennet Taylor (1794-1853)
Generation 7
[71] Jane Claypool (1789-1846)
[92] Robert Wiley Taylor (1769-1818)
Generation 8
[142] Jesse Claypool (1752-1833)
[184] Abijah Taylor (1740-1814)
Generation 9
[284] James Claypole, Senior (1701-1789)
[368] Josiah Taylor (1701-1781)
Generation 10
[568] James Claypool (1664-1706)
[737] Wait Clapp (1670-1722)
Generation 11
[1136] James Claypoole, of Philadelphia (1634-1687)
[1475] Sarah Newberry (1650-1716)
Generation 12
[2272] Sir John Claypoole (1595-~1664)
[2950] Capt. Benjamin Newberry (1624-1689)
Generation 13
[4545] Lady Dorothy Wingfield (~1565-1619)
[5900] Thomas Newberry (1594-1635)
Generation 14
[9090] Sir Robert Wingfield, Esq. (~1532-1580)
[11800] Richard Newberry (~1557-~1629)
Generation 15
[18180] Sir Robert Wingfield, Esq. (~1490-~1575)
[23600] Richard Newborough, of Worth Francis (~1517-<1569)
Generation 16
[36360] Sir Henry Wingfield (~1452-1484)
[47200] Walter Newburgh (~1487-1517)
Generation 17
[72720] Sir Robert Wingfield (1403-~1452)
[72721] Lady Elizabeth Goushill (~1402-)
[94400] Thomas Newburgh, Esq. (~1445-1513)
Generation 18
[145440] Sir Robert Wingfield, of Letheringham (-1409)
[145443] Duchess Elizabeth D'Arundelle (~1375-1425)
[188800] John Newburgh, Esq. (~1400-1484)
Generation 19
[290881] Margaret Hastings (~1397-)
[290886] Sir Richard fitz Alan, 10th Earl of Arundel (1346-1397)
[290887] Elizabeth de Bohun (~1345-1385)
[377600] John Newburgh, Esq. (~1370->1439)
Generation 20
[581762] Sir Hugh Hastings (>1328-1369)
[581772] Sir Richard fitz Alan, 9th Earl of Arundel (~1313-1376)
[581773] Eleanor Plantagenet (1318-1372)
[581774] William de Bohun, 7th Earl of Northampton (~1310-1360)
[581775] Elizabeth de Badlesmere (1313-1356)
[755201] Margaret Poyntz (~1340-)
Generation 21
[1163524] Sir Hugh Hastings, of Gressing Hall (~1313-1347)
[1163525] Margery Foliot (<1313-1349)
[1163544] Sir Edmund fitz Alan, Knt., 8th Earl of Arundel (1285-1326)
[1163545] Alice de Warenne (~1287-~1330)
[1163547] Maud de Chaworth (~1282->1344)
[1163548] Humphrey de Bohun, VIII, 4th Earl of Hereford (~1276-1322)
[1163551] Margaret de Clare (<1288-1333)
[1510402] Sir Nicholas de Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz (~1320-1376)
Generation 22
[2327048] John Hastings, 1st Baron Hastings of Abergavenny (1262-1313)
[2327049] Isabel le Despenser (~1276-1334)
[2327051] Joan de Braose (~1283-<1324)
[2327088] Sir Richard fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel (1267-1302)
[2327090] Sir William de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey (1256-1286)
[2327091] Joan de Vere (~1256-1293)
[2327095] Isabel de Beauchamp (~1258-1306)
[2327096] Humphrey de Bohun, VII, 3rd Earl of Hereford (~1249-1298)Ple
[2327102] Sir Thomas de Clare, Governor of London (~1251-1288)Ire
[2327103] Juliana fitz Maurice (~1267-1300)
[3020804] Hugh de Poyntz, 3rd Lord Poyntz (~1294-<1337)
Generation 23
[4654096] Henry de Hastings, Baron Hastings (~1235-<1268)
[4654097] Joan de Cantelou (~1238-)
[4654099] Isabel de Beauchamp (~1258-1306) (same as 2327095)
[4654102] William de Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower (~1253-<1326)
[4654177] Isabella de Mortimer (~1246-<1292)
[4654180] John de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey (1231-1304)
[4654182] Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford (1240-1296)
[4654190] William de Beauchamp, 9th Earl of Warwick (1237-~1298)
[4654191] Maud fitz John (~1237-~1301)
[4654192] Sir Humphrey de Bohun, VI, Earl of Hereford and Essex
(~1223-1265)
[4654193] Eleanor de Braiose (~1223-)
[4654204] Sir Richard de Clare, 8th Earl of Clare (1222-1262)
[4654205] Maud de Lacy, Countess of Lincoln (~1222-<1289)
[4654207] Maud de Prendergast (~1242-)
[6041609] Elizabeth la Zouche (~1270-~1297)
Generation 24
[9308193] Ada, of Huntingdon (~1195->1241)
[9308195] Eva de Braiose (~1223-1255)
[9308204] William de Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower (1220-1291)
[9308355] Maud de Braoise (~1230-<1301)
[9308360] William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey (1166-1240)
[9308361] Maud Marshal, Countess of Norfolk (<1195-1248)
[9308365] Hawise de Quincy (~1201-)
[9308381] Isabel Maudit (1227-<1268)
[9308383] Isabel Bigod (-)
[9308384] Humphrey de Bohun, V, 2nd Earl of Hereford (<1208-1275)
[9308385] Maud d'Eu (~1208-1241)
[9308387] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246)
[9308408] Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl of Clare (~1180-1230)
[9308409] Isabel Marshal (1200-1240)
[9308410] John de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln (~1191-1240)
[9308411] Margaret de Quincy (~1195-~1266)
[9308414] Gerald de Prendergast (~1200-1251)
[12083219] Milicent de Cantelou (~1238-~1299)
Generation 25
[18616386] David, Earl of Huntingdon (~1144-1219)
[18616391] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246) (same as 9308387)
[18616408] John de Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower (1198-<1232)
[18616711] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246) (same as 18616391)
[18616721] Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey (-1199)
[18616723] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220) (same as
37232783)
[18616731] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235)
[18616762] William Maudit, Lord of Hanslope and Hartley Maudit
(~1193-1257)
[18616763] Alice de Newburgh (~1193-~1246)
[18616767] Maud Marshal, Countess of Norfolk (<1195-1248) (same as
9308361)
[18616768] Henry de Bohun, 1st Earl of Hereford (1176-1220)
[18616771] Alice d'Eu, Countess of Eu (~1178-1246)
[18616775] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220)
[18616817] Amice fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester (~1155-1225)
[18616819] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220) (same as
18616775)
[18616821] Maud de Clare (~1170-)
[18616822] Robert de Quincy, II, Earl of Winchester (-1217)
[18616829] Maud de Quincy (1173-)
[24166439] Eva de Braiose (~1223-1255) (same as 9308195)
Generation 26
[37232773] Ada de Warenne (~1114-1178)
[37232817] Maud de Clare (~1170-) (same as 18616821)
[37233442] William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey (1118-1148)
[37233462] Robert de Beaumont, III, 3rd Earl of Leicester (<1135-1190)
[37233524] Robert Maudit, Lord of Hanslope (~1163-1222)
[37233526] Waleran de Newburgh, 4th Earl of Warwick (<1153-1204)
[37233537] Margaret de Huntingdon (~1141-1201)
[37233543] Maud de Warenne (~1162-1207)
[37233550] Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (~1130-~1176)
[37233635] Hawise de Beaumont (~1131-1197)
[37233643] Amice fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester (~1155-1225)
(same as 18616817)
[37233645] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235) (same as 18616731)
[37233659] Basile de Clare (~1158-~1203)
Generation 27
[74465547] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
[74466885] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
[74466924] Sir Robert de Beaumont, II, 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104-1168)
[74467049] Isabelle de St. Liz (~1140-)
[74467053] Gundred de Warenne, Countess of Warwick (>1119->1166)
[74467075] Ada de Warenne (~1114-1178) (same as 37232773)
[74467087] Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey (-1199) (same as
18616721)
[74467101] Isabel de Beaumont (~1103-)
[74467270] Sir Robert de Beaumont, II, 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104-1168)
[74467318] Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (~1130-~1176) (same
as 37233550)
Generation 28
[148934099] Isabelle de Beaumont (<1123-)
[148934107] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
[148934203] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
[148934541] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 74465547)
Tim Forsythe
http://AncestorsNow.com
https://plus.google.com/u/0/103395306698731049003/posts
On 10/24/2011 10:26 PM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> ...
>
> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>
> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>
Douglas Richardson
Oct 30, 2011, 12:03:21 PM10/30/11
to
Dear Tim ~
You have set forth the extended ancestry of the immigrant, [Mr.]
Thomas Newberry (died 1636[/37]), of Dorchester, Massachusetts, giving
what appears to be a valid descent from Isabel de Vermandois. The
extended ancestry is doubtless based on material found in the book,
Newberry Genealogy, by John Bartlett, published in 1914. Mr. Bartlett
provided sufficient evidence to prove that the immigrant was the son
of Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon (your Generation 14), by his
wife, Grace Mathew.
However, in tracing the immigrant's ancestry, Mr. Bartlett relied on
two pieces of evidence to identify Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe,
Devon [father of the immigrant] as a younger son of Richard
Newborough, Gent. (your Generation 15), of Othe Francis (in
Netherbury), Dorset (died c.1570), by his wife, Elizabeth Horsey
1. Mr. Bartlett claimed that Richard Newberry [father of the
immigrant] is the same person as “Richard Newborough, of Leavenhey,
co. Devon, Gent.,” who gave testimony in 1594 in a chancery lawsuit
involving his brother, Walter Newburgh, and his widowed mother,
Elizabeth Woodshaw.
Bartlett indicated that "Leavenhey" was a locality in the parish of
Yarcombe, Devon. There is indeed a locality named "Livehayne" in the
parish of Yarcombe, Devon [see Gover, Place-Names of Devon 2 (1932):
652]. However, there is another locality called Livingshayes (aka
Levenshayes) in the parish of nearby Silverton, Devon [see Gover,
Place-Names of Devon 2 (1932): 571], which is more likely the place
intended.
If so, then it would appear that Richard Newburgh, Gent., brother of
Walter Newburgh, Gent., resided in 1594 in the parish of Silverton,
not in Yarcombe, Devon. I might add that there is no evidence that
the immigrant's father, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, was ever
a gentleman.
2. Bartlett further indicated that the "seven children" of Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, were legatees in the 1632 will of
Richard’s other alleged brother, William Newburgh, Gent., of Frampton,
Dorset. He quotes the actual will. Mr. Bartlett shows that Richard
Newberry [father of the immigrant] and his wife, Grace Matthew, had
nine children in all, of whom two died in infancy. As such, in 1632
Richard Newberry should have had seven children living just as his
brother's will indicates. This all looks good.
However, Mr. Bartlett altered the actual list of the children of
Richard Newberry of Yarcombe. The Yarcombe parish registers [FHL
Microfilm 917559] indicate that Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon,
had eight children baptized in that parish (not nine as claimed by Mr.
Bartlett). Of these eight children, only five were living in 1627,
thus proving that Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon was NOT the
brother of William Newburgh, Gent., of Frampton, Dorset as claimed by
Bartlett.
Here is the corrected list of Richard Newberry's children:
1. John 1582
2. William 1584; buried 12 May 1606 as "William son of Richard."
3. Ellen 1586 (Bartlett gave her name as Alice!!).
4. Fides, 1589 [Fides is presumably Latin for the given name, Faith]
5. Robert, 1592, likely died young. Bartlett states he was buried 28
April 1596. However, the Robert Newberry who died at Yarcombe in this
time period was buried 28 April 1590, before the baptism of this
child.
6. Thomas, 1594 (the immigrant).
7. Dorothy, 1597, buried 6 Aug. 1606, as "Dorothy dau. of Richard"
8. Robert, 1600.
So who was the father of Richard Newberry? Actually that is quite
easy to find. Richard Newberry was the son and heir of William
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, who left a will was dated 20 May 1596,
proved 6 Dec. 1596 (P.C.C. 90 Drake). In the will, William Newberry
names his wife, Ellyne [Ellen]; the minor children of Richard
Newberry; and he leaves the residue of his estate to his son, Richard
Newberry, whom he names his executor.
Mr. Bartlett discussed the 1596 PCC will of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon in his book - see page 31. There he gives the
pertinent information and says that William Newberry's will named a
son, Richard. But Bartlett dismissed the importance of this evidence
by stating that William Newberry's son, Richard, "born in 1564, is of
record at Membury in 1591, 1596, and 1600, and later moved to Shute,
Devon, where he died in August 1618, leaving no issue."
However, Mr. Bartlett carefully omitted giving a transcript of of
William Newberry's will which indicates that William's son, Richard,
DID have issue in 1596:
"Item [I] geve and bequeath unto every of Richarde Newberyes Children
Thirteen poundes sixe shillinge eight pence a peece, to be paide to
every of them when they shalbe of age to geve discharge as
before...." END OF QUOTE.
Bartlett's statements about William Newberry's son, Richard, being
born in 1564, and later being at Membury and Shute are not supported
by any documentation.
As such, it appears that there were two different men in this time
period: Richard Newborough [or Newburgh], Gent., of Livingshayes (in
Silverton), Devon living in 1594, and the immigrant's father, Richard
Newberry, who occurs at Yarcombe, Devon from 1581 up through at least
1632.
In summary, contemporary records indicate that the immigrant, [Mr.]
Thomas Newberry, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, was the son of Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, and his wife, Grace Matthew. Richard
Newberry in turn was the son and heir of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon (died 1596), by his wife, Ellen (buried at Yarcombe,
Devon 26 June 1609). Thus, the immigrant loses all of his royal
ancestry.
Lastly, some good news. I've found that in 1627 Richard Newberry,
Thomas Newberry, Richard Fry, and John Tutton purchased the wardship
of John Fry alias Urch for £15 [see Hawkins Sales of Wards in Somerset
(Somerset Rec. Soc. 67) (1965): 20–21]. This record likely involves
Richard Newberry of Yarcombe, Devon and his son, Thomas Newberry, the
immigrant. I say that because I found the marriage at Yarcombe,
Devon for John Frie alias Urch in 1635, which individual I assume is
the ward of 1627.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
You have set forth the extended ancestry of the immigrant, [Mr.]
Thomas Newberry (died 1636[/37]), of Dorchester, Massachusetts, giving
what appears to be a valid descent from Isabel de Vermandois. The
extended ancestry is doubtless based on material found in the book,
Newberry Genealogy, by John Bartlett, published in 1914. Mr. Bartlett
provided sufficient evidence to prove that the immigrant was the son
of Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon (your Generation 14), by his
wife, Grace Mathew.
However, in tracing the immigrant's ancestry, Mr. Bartlett relied on
two pieces of evidence to identify Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe,
Devon [father of the immigrant] as a younger son of Richard
Newborough, Gent. (your Generation 15), of Othe Francis (in
Netherbury), Dorset (died c.1570), by his wife, Elizabeth Horsey
1. Mr. Bartlett claimed that Richard Newberry [father of the
immigrant] is the same person as “Richard Newborough, of Leavenhey,
co. Devon, Gent.,” who gave testimony in 1594 in a chancery lawsuit
involving his brother, Walter Newburgh, and his widowed mother,
Elizabeth Woodshaw.
Bartlett indicated that "Leavenhey" was a locality in the parish of
Yarcombe, Devon. There is indeed a locality named "Livehayne" in the
parish of Yarcombe, Devon [see Gover, Place-Names of Devon 2 (1932):
652]. However, there is another locality called Livingshayes (aka
Levenshayes) in the parish of nearby Silverton, Devon [see Gover,
Place-Names of Devon 2 (1932): 571], which is more likely the place
intended.
If so, then it would appear that Richard Newburgh, Gent., brother of
Walter Newburgh, Gent., resided in 1594 in the parish of Silverton,
not in Yarcombe, Devon. I might add that there is no evidence that
the immigrant's father, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, was ever
a gentleman.
2. Bartlett further indicated that the "seven children" of Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, were legatees in the 1632 will of
Richard’s other alleged brother, William Newburgh, Gent., of Frampton,
Dorset. He quotes the actual will. Mr. Bartlett shows that Richard
Newberry [father of the immigrant] and his wife, Grace Matthew, had
nine children in all, of whom two died in infancy. As such, in 1632
Richard Newberry should have had seven children living just as his
brother's will indicates. This all looks good.
However, Mr. Bartlett altered the actual list of the children of
Richard Newberry of Yarcombe. The Yarcombe parish registers [FHL
Microfilm 917559] indicate that Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon,
had eight children baptized in that parish (not nine as claimed by Mr.
Bartlett). Of these eight children, only five were living in 1627,
thus proving that Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon was NOT the
brother of William Newburgh, Gent., of Frampton, Dorset as claimed by
Bartlett.
Here is the corrected list of Richard Newberry's children:
1. John 1582
2. William 1584; buried 12 May 1606 as "William son of Richard."
3. Ellen 1586 (Bartlett gave her name as Alice!!).
4. Fides, 1589 [Fides is presumably Latin for the given name, Faith]
5. Robert, 1592, likely died young. Bartlett states he was buried 28
April 1596. However, the Robert Newberry who died at Yarcombe in this
time period was buried 28 April 1590, before the baptism of this
child.
6. Thomas, 1594 (the immigrant).
7. Dorothy, 1597, buried 6 Aug. 1606, as "Dorothy dau. of Richard"
8. Robert, 1600.
So who was the father of Richard Newberry? Actually that is quite
easy to find. Richard Newberry was the son and heir of William
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, who left a will was dated 20 May 1596,
proved 6 Dec. 1596 (P.C.C. 90 Drake). In the will, William Newberry
names his wife, Ellyne [Ellen]; the minor children of Richard
Newberry; and he leaves the residue of his estate to his son, Richard
Newberry, whom he names his executor.
Mr. Bartlett discussed the 1596 PCC will of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon in his book - see page 31. There he gives the
pertinent information and says that William Newberry's will named a
son, Richard. But Bartlett dismissed the importance of this evidence
by stating that William Newberry's son, Richard, "born in 1564, is of
record at Membury in 1591, 1596, and 1600, and later moved to Shute,
Devon, where he died in August 1618, leaving no issue."
However, Mr. Bartlett carefully omitted giving a transcript of of
William Newberry's will which indicates that William's son, Richard,
DID have issue in 1596:
"Item [I] geve and bequeath unto every of Richarde Newberyes Children
Thirteen poundes sixe shillinge eight pence a peece, to be paide to
every of them when they shalbe of age to geve discharge as
before...." END OF QUOTE.
Bartlett's statements about William Newberry's son, Richard, being
born in 1564, and later being at Membury and Shute are not supported
by any documentation.
As such, it appears that there were two different men in this time
period: Richard Newborough [or Newburgh], Gent., of Livingshayes (in
Silverton), Devon living in 1594, and the immigrant's father, Richard
Newberry, who occurs at Yarcombe, Devon from 1581 up through at least
1632.
In summary, contemporary records indicate that the immigrant, [Mr.]
Thomas Newberry, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, was the son of Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, and his wife, Grace Matthew. Richard
Newberry in turn was the son and heir of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon (died 1596), by his wife, Ellen (buried at Yarcombe,
Devon 26 June 1609). Thus, the immigrant loses all of his royal
ancestry.
Lastly, some good news. I've found that in 1627 Richard Newberry,
Thomas Newberry, Richard Fry, and John Tutton purchased the wardship
of John Fry alias Urch for £15 [see Hawkins Sales of Wards in Somerset
(Somerset Rec. Soc. 67) (1965): 20–21]. This record likely involves
Richard Newberry of Yarcombe, Devon and his son, Thomas Newberry, the
immigrant. I say that because I found the marriage at Yarcombe,
Devon for John Frie alias Urch in 1635, which individual I assume is
the ward of 1627.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Oct 29, 3:55 pm, Tim Forsythe <tjforsy...@gmail.com> wrote:
< My line of descent from Isabel de Vermaindois can be found
here:http://ancestorsnow.com/ancestors/dlist_9.php
< Generation 11
< My line of descent from Isabel de Vermaindois can be found
here:http://ancestorsnow.com/ancestors/dlist_9.php
><[1475] Sarah Newberry (1650-1716)
< Generation 12
< Generation 12
< [2950] Capt. Benjamin Newberry (1624-1689)
< Generation 13
< Generation 13
< [5900] Thomas Newberry (1594-1635)
< Generation 14
< Generation 14
< [11800] Richard Newberry (~1557-~1629)
< Generation 15
< [18180] Sir Robert Wingfield, Esq. (~1490-~1575)
< [23600] Richard Newborough, of Worth Francis (~1517-<1569)
< Generation 16
< Generation 15
< [18180] Sir Robert Wingfield, Esq. (~1490-~1575)
< [23600] Richard Newborough, of Worth Francis (~1517-<1569)
< Generation 16
< [47200] Walter Newburgh (~1487-1517)
< Generation 17
< Generation 17
< [94400] Thomas Newburgh, Esq. (~1445-1513)
< Generation 18
< Generation 18
< [188800] John Newburgh, Esq. (~1400-1484)
< Generation 19
< Generation 19
< [377600] John Newburgh, Esq. (~1370->1439)
< Generation 20
< Generation 20
< [755201] Margaret Poyntz (~1340-)
< Generation 21
< Generation 21
< [1510402] Sir Nicholas de Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz (~1320-1376)
< Generation 22
< Generation 22
< [3020804] Hugh de Poyntz, 3rd Lord Poyntz (~1294-<1337)
< Generation 23
< Generation 23
< [6041609] Elizabeth la Zouche (~1270-~1297)
< Generation 24
< Generation 24
< [12083219] Milicent de Cantelou (~1238-~1299)
< Generation 25
< Generation 25
Douglas Richardson
Oct 30, 2011, 12:48:08 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 9:51 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
< Below is one line that I was fairly easily able to reconstruct from
my
< unwieldy 524-page pedigree chart in 8-pt. font for Robert Abell (I
< really must learn how to use a program soon).
<1. Elizabeth de Vermandois = Robert de Beaumont, earl of Leicester
<2. Isabel de Beaumont = Gilbert de Clare, earl of Pembroke
<3. Richard de Clare, earl of Pembroke = Aoife [Eva] of Leinster
<4. Isabel de Clare, countess of Pembroke = William Marshal, earl of
Pembroke
<5. Eve Marshal = William de Briouse, baron of Kington
<6. Maud de Briouse = Roger de Mortimer, baron of Wigmore
<7. Iseult de Mortimer = Hugh de Audley, knt., of Stratton
Christopher ~
The line of descent you set forth for Robert Abell breaks at
Generation 7 above.
Iseult (your Generation 7), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun
and Sir Hugh de Audley, is claimed in many secondary sources to have
been a member of Mortimer family. While it is true that Iseult and
her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley,
Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir
Edmund de Mortimer, this grant does not necessarily mean or imply that
Iseult was a Mortimer. On the other hand, Iseult’s grandson, Sir
James de Audley, is known to have been related in some manner to Sir
Bartholomew de Burghersh, which individual was a great-grandson of the
same Sir Edmund de Mortimer [see Beltz, Memorials of the Order of the
Garter]. As such, the possibility exists that Iseult was near related
to Sir Edmund de Mortimer. Even so, there is no known contemporary
evidence which indicates Iseult’s exact parentage or even how she
might have been related to Sir Edmund de Mortimer. This matter
deserves further study.
wrote:
< Below is one line that I was fairly easily able to reconstruct from
my
< unwieldy 524-page pedigree chart in 8-pt. font for Robert Abell (I
< really must learn how to use a program soon).
<2. Isabel de Beaumont = Gilbert de Clare, earl of Pembroke
<3. Richard de Clare, earl of Pembroke = Aoife [Eva] of Leinster
<4. Isabel de Clare, countess of Pembroke = William Marshal, earl of
Pembroke
<5. Eve Marshal = William de Briouse, baron of Kington
<6. Maud de Briouse = Roger de Mortimer, baron of Wigmore
<7. Iseult de Mortimer = Hugh de Audley, knt., of Stratton
Christopher ~
The line of descent you set forth for Robert Abell breaks at
Generation 7 above.
Iseult (your Generation 7), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun
and Sir Hugh de Audley, is claimed in many secondary sources to have
been a member of Mortimer family. While it is true that Iseult and
her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley,
Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir
Edmund de Mortimer, this grant does not necessarily mean or imply that
Iseult was a Mortimer. On the other hand, Iseult’s grandson, Sir
James de Audley, is known to have been related in some manner to Sir
Bartholomew de Burghersh, which individual was a great-grandson of the
same Sir Edmund de Mortimer [see Beltz, Memorials of the Order of the
Garter]. As such, the possibility exists that Iseult was near related
to Sir Edmund de Mortimer. Even so, there is no known contemporary
evidence which indicates Iseult’s exact parentage or even how she
might have been related to Sir Edmund de Mortimer. This matter
deserves further study.
Christopher Ingham
Oct 30, 2011, 1:05:45 PM10/30/11
to
in question (and several others) from_Plantagenet ancestry_.
Presumably the new edition has corrected this.
Christopher Ingham
Douglas Richardson
Oct 30, 2011, 1:31:57 PM10/30/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
I promised everyone to post one of my lines of descent from Isabel de
Vermandois. So here it goes.
The descent below was developed partly through the research of my
colleague, Andrew B.W. MacEwen, of Stockton Springs, Maine. Mr.
MacEwen believed on good evidence that Isabel, wife of Roger Fitz
John, of Warkworth, Northumberland was probably a daughter of Patrick,
6th Earl of Dunbar {Generation 5 below], and his wife, Euphame de Brus
[see, for example, his article, “A Clarification of the Dunbar
Pedigree,” published in The Genealogist, 9 (1988): 229–241]. After
further sleuthing, Mr. MacEwen eventually found evidence which
conclusively proves the connection. He located a record dated 1270-80
which indicates that Robert Fitz Roger, Knt. [Generation 7 below]
provided maintenance for a chaplain at the Hospital of St. Mary and
St. James at Aynho, Northamptonshire to celebrate for the soul of his
grandmother, E[uphame], Countess of Dunbar [Generation 5 below]. This
record can be found in Fourth Rpt. (Hist. MSS Comm. 3) (1874): 460,
and may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MFg-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA460
1. Isabel de Vermandois, married William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of
Surrey.
2. Ada de Warenne, married Henry of Scotland, Earl of Northumberland.
3. William the Lion, King of Scots, by an unknown mistress, _____.
4. Ada of Scotland, married Patrick, 5th Earl of Dunbar.
5. Patrick, Knt., 6th Earl of Dunbar, married Euphame de Brus.
6. Isabel of Dumbar, married Roger Fitz John (or de Balliol), of
Warkworth, Northumberland.
7. Robert Fitz Roger, Knt., of Warkworth, Northumberland, married
Margery la Zouche.
8. John Fitz Robert (or de Clavering), Knt., Lord Clavering, married
Hawise de Tibetot.
9. Eve de Clavering, married Thomas de Ufford, Knt.
10. Edmund de Ufford, Knt., of Great Belstead, Suffolk, married Sibyl
de Pierrepont (or Pierpont).
11. Ela Ufford, married Miles Stapleton, Knt., of Ingham, Norfolk,
12. Brian Stapleton, Knt., of Ingham, Norfolk, married Cecily Bardolf.
13. Brian Stapleton, Esq., of Ingham, Crisping’s (in Happisburgh), and
Hasilden, Norfolk, married Isabel (or Elizabeth) _____.
14. Elizabeth Stapleton, married John Richers, Esq., of Swannington,
Norfolk.
15. John Richers, Esq., married Elizabeth Batchcroft.
16. Henry (or Harry) Richers, Esq., of Swannington, Norfolk, married
Cecily Tillys.
17. Frances Richers, married Edmund Cushin, Gent., of Swannington and
Hingham, Norfolk.
18. Elizabeth Cushin, married William Thornton, Esq., of Downham (in
Wymondham) and Wramplingham, Norfolk.
19. Robert Thornton, Esq., of Hingham, Norfolk, married Anne Smith.
20. Mary Thornton, married John Haynes, Esq., of Hingham, Norfolk, Old
Holt (in Messing), Essex, and Cambridge, Massachusetts, Governor of
Massachusetts and Connecticut.
21. Elizabeth Haynes, married Joseph Cooke, of Pebmarsh, Essex, and
Cambridge, Massachusetts.
22. Mary Cooke, married [Lieut Col.] John Talcott (died 1688), of
Hartford, Connecticut, Treasurer of Connecticut, 1660–78, Assistant,
1661–88.Commander-in-Chief of Connecticut’s military services during
King Philip’s War.
I promised everyone to post one of my lines of descent from Isabel de
Vermandois. So here it goes.
The descent below was developed partly through the research of my
colleague, Andrew B.W. MacEwen, of Stockton Springs, Maine. Mr.
MacEwen believed on good evidence that Isabel, wife of Roger Fitz
John, of Warkworth, Northumberland was probably a daughter of Patrick,
6th Earl of Dunbar {Generation 5 below], and his wife, Euphame de Brus
[see, for example, his article, “A Clarification of the Dunbar
Pedigree,” published in The Genealogist, 9 (1988): 229–241]. After
further sleuthing, Mr. MacEwen eventually found evidence which
conclusively proves the connection. He located a record dated 1270-80
which indicates that Robert Fitz Roger, Knt. [Generation 7 below]
provided maintenance for a chaplain at the Hospital of St. Mary and
St. James at Aynho, Northamptonshire to celebrate for the soul of his
grandmother, E[uphame], Countess of Dunbar [Generation 5 below]. This
record can be found in Fourth Rpt. (Hist. MSS Comm. 3) (1874): 460,
and may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MFg-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA460
1. Isabel de Vermandois, married William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of
Surrey.
2. Ada de Warenne, married Henry of Scotland, Earl of Northumberland.
3. William the Lion, King of Scots, by an unknown mistress, _____.
4. Ada of Scotland, married Patrick, 5th Earl of Dunbar.
5. Patrick, Knt., 6th Earl of Dunbar, married Euphame de Brus.
6. Isabel of Dumbar, married Roger Fitz John (or de Balliol), of
Warkworth, Northumberland.
7. Robert Fitz Roger, Knt., of Warkworth, Northumberland, married
Margery la Zouche.
8. John Fitz Robert (or de Clavering), Knt., Lord Clavering, married
Hawise de Tibetot.
9. Eve de Clavering, married Thomas de Ufford, Knt.
10. Edmund de Ufford, Knt., of Great Belstead, Suffolk, married Sibyl
de Pierrepont (or Pierpont).
11. Ela Ufford, married Miles Stapleton, Knt., of Ingham, Norfolk,
12. Brian Stapleton, Knt., of Ingham, Norfolk, married Cecily Bardolf.
13. Brian Stapleton, Esq., of Ingham, Crisping’s (in Happisburgh), and
Hasilden, Norfolk, married Isabel (or Elizabeth) _____.
14. Elizabeth Stapleton, married John Richers, Esq., of Swannington,
Norfolk.
15. John Richers, Esq., married Elizabeth Batchcroft.
16. Henry (or Harry) Richers, Esq., of Swannington, Norfolk, married
Cecily Tillys.
17. Frances Richers, married Edmund Cushin, Gent., of Swannington and
Hingham, Norfolk.
18. Elizabeth Cushin, married William Thornton, Esq., of Downham (in
Wymondham) and Wramplingham, Norfolk.
19. Robert Thornton, Esq., of Hingham, Norfolk, married Anne Smith.
20. Mary Thornton, married John Haynes, Esq., of Hingham, Norfolk, Old
Holt (in Messing), Essex, and Cambridge, Massachusetts, Governor of
Massachusetts and Connecticut.
21. Elizabeth Haynes, married Joseph Cooke, of Pebmarsh, Essex, and
Cambridge, Massachusetts.
22. Mary Cooke, married [Lieut Col.] John Talcott (died 1688), of
Hartford, Connecticut, Treasurer of Connecticut, 1660–78, Assistant,
1661–88.Commander-in-Chief of Connecticut’s military services during
King Philip’s War.
David Teague
Oct 30, 2011, 1:50:48 PM10/30/11
to wjho...@aol.com, tap...@clear.net.nz, soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Nor does the Bible make Serug a king of anywhere, and even if it did, this would not be relevant here unless: 1) His existence could be independently confirmed/documented; and 2) He could be demonstrated as part of at least a plausible DFA (Descent From Antiquity).
Neither has been shown, so far.
David Teague
> To: tap...@clear.net.nz; soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Isabel de VERMANDOIS - UR Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
> From: wjho...@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:46:47 -0400
> CC: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
>
> While the bible states that Serug died when he was 230, we have no firm ground upon which to determine what year that occurred.
>
>
>
>
> You wrote: "*K Serug of Ur and Agade
>
> While the bible states that Serug died when he was 230, we have no firm ground upon which to determine what year that occurred.
>
>
>
>
> B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
> Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
> m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
> m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: soc.genealogy.medieval <soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com>
> Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:29 pm
> Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 7:29 pm
> Subject: Isabel de VERMANDOIS - UR Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
>
>
> Hello from New Zealand
>
> Have been watching these posts on our *Isabel de Vermandois - UR
> Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
>
> She is indeed descended from ancient UR lineages pre Biblical
> times......
>
> Her first forebear that I have in the archives is.....
>
> *Ur ben Kesed
>
> *Ora bat Ur = *K Reu of Lagash
>
> *K Serug of Ur and Agade
> B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
> Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
> m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea.
>
>
>
> Hello from New Zealand
>
> Have been watching these posts on our *Isabel de Vermandois - UR
> Mother / *Sir Nicholas de Segrave m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
>
> She is indeed descended from ancient UR lineages pre Biblical
> times......
>
> Her first forebear that I have in the archives is.....
>
> *Ur ben Kesed
>
> *Ora bat Ur = *K Reu of Lagash
>
> *K Serug of Ur and Agade
> B 2181 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea
> Dd 1951 B.C. in Ur, Chaldea.
> m/d *Melka 2151 in Ur, Chaldea.
>
> *K Nahor of Ur and Agade = *Jaska
>
> *K Terah of Agade
>
> *+Abraham of Genesis
> Two Sons
> *Midian of Abraham born
> *K Isaac of Goshen born
>
>
> *K Terah of Agade
>
> *+Abraham of Genesis
> Two Sons
> *Midian of Abraham born
> *K Isaac of Goshen born
>
> Myself I descend from the progenitor - *Ur ben Kesed - at least 15
> times....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> And now for the *SEAGRAVES
>
> Progenitor.....??
>
> *Hereward de Segrave - B 1115? Leicestershire, England
>
> A Son
> *Gilbert de Seagrave.. born 1155? in Leicestershire, England
>
> A Son
> *Stephen de Seagrave born 1175? in Leicestershire, England
> m/d *Rohese deSpencer, 1210? in Leicestershire, England
> Died November 1241 in Lancashire, England
>
> A Son
> *Gilbert de Seagrave
> m/d *Amabilia de Constable/Chaucombe, 1225? d/o *Sir Robt Chaucombe &
> *Julienne
>
> A Son
> *Sir Nicholas de Seagrave born 1235? in Leicestershire, England
> times....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> And now for the *SEAGRAVES
>
> Progenitor.....??
>
> *Hereward de Segrave - B 1115? Leicestershire, England
>
> A Son
> *Gilbert de Seagrave.. born 1155? in Leicestershire, England
>
> A Son
> *Stephen de Seagrave born 1175? in Leicestershire, England
> m/d *Rohese deSpencer, 1210? in Leicestershire, England
> Died November 1241 in Lancashire, England
>
> A Son
> *Gilbert de Seagrave
> m/d *Amabilia de Constable/Chaucombe, 1225? d/o *Sir Robt Chaucombe &
> *Julienne
>
> A Son
> *Sir Nicholas de Seagrave born 1235? in Leicestershire, England
> m/d *Maud de Lucy, 1255?
>
>
> Children
> *Baron John de Seagrave born 1255? in Leicestershire, England
> Nicholas de Seagrave born 1260? in Seagrave, Nthampton
> *Eleanor Seagrave born 1270? in Seagrave, Leics
> *Sir Nicholas de Seagrave - Dd 1295? Chaucombe, Northampton, England
>
>
> Kind regards from, Maree S. Gordon Matamata New Zealand
>
> tap...@clear.net.nz / SKYPE matamatamaree
>
>
>
> *Baron John de Seagrave born 1255? in Leicestershire, England
> Nicholas de Seagrave born 1260? in Seagrave, Nthampton
> *Eleanor Seagrave born 1270? in Seagrave, Leics
> *Sir Nicholas de Seagrave - Dd 1295? Chaucombe, Northampton, England
>
>
> Kind regards from, Maree S. Gordon Matamata New Zealand
>
> tap...@clear.net.nz / SKYPE matamatamaree
>
>
>
John
Oct 30, 2011, 1:50:58 PM10/30/11
to
pointed out that the problems with the Newberry genealogy were noted
long ago, possibly as early as 1925. As a start, see the post by Paul
Reed here in Nov 1999. I believe the English genealogist Sir Anthony
Wagner was responsible for for at least some of the discoveries which
are discussed (but uncredited) above.
TJ Booth_aol
Oct 30, 2011, 3:20:51 PM10/30/11
to GenMedieval
Thanks to Douglas for noting this correction, as my database also had relied
on old RPA. As Mr. Ingham noted, Walter de Balun's wife Iseult is shown as
Iseult de Mortimer dau of Sir Roger de Mortimer and Maud de Brewes on both
page 522 [sub Mortimer] and page 670 [sub Stafford] of old RPA.
There is some SGM history on this. CP i:347/8, modified by xiv, identified
Iseult's father as Sir Edmund Mortimer [son of the above Sir Roger]. This
statement was corrected after numerous SGM discussions in some of which Mr.
Richardson participated. One result was/is a proposed CP correction on Chris
Phillips' medieval website @
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/p_audleyofstratton.shtml#p347
(reflecting much research by Cris Nash in 2002 searching for relevant
original documents).
The correction removed Sir Edmund Mortimer as Iseult's father without adding
any evidence her father was Sir Roger. A late 2002 SGM post by Mr.
Richardson suggests, based on chronology, assigning her to Sir Edmund's
father
(http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-10/1035142677).
Later that year Mr. Richardson noted he would cease posting until his RPA
MSS was finished.
There was renewed discussion in 2006, at which time the Sir Roger suggestion
does not appear to have been mentioned. Presumably Douglas modified his
views based on re-examination of the evidence - I appreciate his bringing it
to our attention and his note that further study is merited.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Ingham" <christop...@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
on old RPA. As Mr. Ingham noted, Walter de Balun's wife Iseult is shown as
Iseult de Mortimer dau of Sir Roger de Mortimer and Maud de Brewes on both
page 522 [sub Mortimer] and page 670 [sub Stafford] of old RPA.
There is some SGM history on this. CP i:347/8, modified by xiv, identified
Iseult's father as Sir Edmund Mortimer [son of the above Sir Roger]. This
statement was corrected after numerous SGM discussions in some of which Mr.
Richardson participated. One result was/is a proposed CP correction on Chris
Phillips' medieval website @
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/p_audleyofstratton.shtml#p347
(reflecting much research by Cris Nash in 2002 searching for relevant
original documents).
The correction removed Sir Edmund Mortimer as Iseult's father without adding
any evidence her father was Sir Roger. A late 2002 SGM post by Mr.
Richardson suggests, based on chronology, assigning her to Sir Edmund's
father
(http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-10/1035142677).
Later that year Mr. Richardson noted he would cease posting until his RPA
MSS was finished.
There was renewed discussion in 2006, at which time the Sir Roger suggestion
does not appear to have been mentioned. Presumably Douglas modified his
views based on re-examination of the evidence - I appreciate his bringing it
to our attention and his note that further study is merited.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Ingham" <christop...@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
Douglas Richardson
Oct 30, 2011, 5:08:56 PM10/30/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
The loss of the long established Newberry line reminds me that there
is an exclusive new hereditary society which formed last year.
It's the Society of the Non-Descendants of Isabel de Vermandois.
The loss of the long established Newberry line reminds me that there
is an exclusive new hereditary society which formed last year.
It's the Society of the Non-Descendants of Isabel de Vermandois.
Wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 5:20:11 PM10/30/11
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
It probably has as many members in it as the newly formed
Society of People who Enjoy Preparing their Own Taxes
Wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 7:46:23 PM10/30/11
to tjfor...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Richard Lord Molyneux's parents were not married until 16 Jun 1422
So their granddaughter was certainly not born "~1438"
Generation 17
[70675] Margaret Molyneux (~1438-)
Generation 18
[141351] Elizabeth Stanley (~1422-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Forsythe <tjfor...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 30, 2011 3:53 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
Here is another descent from Isabel de Vermandois, though there are
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
portions I am not so certain of.
http://ancestorsnow.com/ancestors/dlist_10.php
Generation 1
[1] Dora Lee Pavey (1905-1986)
Generation 2
[2] Francis Nathan Pavey (1873-1913)
[3] Frances Ann Couvillion (1873-1952)
Generation 3
[4] John Jefferson Pavey (1838-1911)
[7] Eleonora Ann Pavey (1852-1933)
Generation 4
[8] John Benjamin Pavey (1813-1882)
[14] John Benjamin Pavey (1813-1882) (same as 8)
Generation 5
[17] Sarah Bobbit (1794-1871)
Generation 6
[34] Randolph Bobbitt (1768-1819)
Generation 7
[69] Lucy Leftwich (>1732-~1788)
Generation 8
[138] William Leftwich (~1702-)
Generation 9
[276] _____ Leftwich (~1658-)
Generation 10
[552] Ralph Leftwich (~1628-)
Generation 11
[1104] Thomas Leftwich (~1598-)
Generation 12
[2208] Ralph Leftwich (1568-)
Generation 13
[4417] Katherine Holford (~1537-)
Generation 14
[8834] Arthur Holford, of Davenham (~1505-)
Generation 15
[17668] Sir George Holford, of Holford (~1473-)
Generation 16
[35337] Maude Buckely (-)
Generation 17
[70675] Margaret Molyneux (~1438-)
Generation 18
[141351] Elizabeth Stanley (~1422-)
Generation 19
[282702] Sir Thomas Stanley, 1st Lord Stanley of Lathom (1406-1459)
[282703] Joan Goushill (~1401->1459)
Generation 20
[565404] Sir John Stanley, Knt., of Knowsley and Lathom (~1386-1437)
[565405] Isabel Harington, of Hornby (~1386-)
[565407] Duchess Elizabeth D'Arundelle (~1375-1425)
Generation 21
[1130809] Isabel de Lathom (~1350-1414)
[1130810] Sir Robert Harington, K.B., 3rd Lord Harington of Gleaston
Castle (-1406)
[1130814] Sir Richard fitz Alan, 10th Earl of Arundel (1346-1397)
[1130815] Elizabeth de Bohun (~1345-1385)
Generation 22
[2261618] Sir Thomas de Lathom, Knt., of Lathom (~1320-<1382)
[2261620] Sir John Harington, Lord Harington of Aldingham (~1328-1363)
[2261628] Sir Richard fitz Alan, 9th Earl of Arundel (~1313-1376)
[2261629] Eleanor Plantagenet (1318-1372)
[2261630] William de Bohun, 7th Earl of Northampton (~1310-1360)
[2261631] Elizabeth de Badlesmere (1313-1356)
Generation 23
[4523237] Eleanor de Ferrers (~1300-)
[4523241] Elizabeth de Multon (~1306-)
[4523256] Sir Edmund fitz Alan, Knt., 8th Earl of Arundel (1285-1326)
[4523257] Alice de Warenne (~1287-~1330)
[4523259] Maud de Chaworth (~1282->1344)
[4523260] Humphrey de Bohun, VIII, 4th Earl of Hereford (~1276-1322)
[4523263] Margaret de Clare (<1288-1333)
Generation 24
[9046474] Sir John de Ferrers, 1st Lord Ferrers of Chartley (1271-1312)
[9046475] Hawise de Muscegros, of Charlton (1276-~1340)
[9046483] Eleanor de Burgh (~1276-)
[9046512] Sir Richard fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel (1267-1302)
[9046514] Sir William de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey (1256-1286)
[9046515] Joan de Vere (~1256-1293)
[9046519] Isabel de Beauchamp (~1258-1306)
[9046520] Humphrey de Bohun, VII, 3rd Earl of Hereford (~1249-1298)
[9046526] Sir Thomas de Clare, Governor of London (~1251-1288)
[9046527] Juliana fitz Maurice (~1267-1300)
Generation 25
[18092948] Robert de Ferrers, 6th Earl of Derby (1239-1279)
[18092949] Alianore de Bohun (~1239-1314)
[18092951] Agnes de Ferrers (~1252->1281)
[18092966] Richard de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster (~1259-1326)
[18093025] Isabella de Mortimer (~1246-<1292)
[18093028] John de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey (1231-1304)
[18093030] Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford (1240-1296)
[18093038] William de Beauchamp, 9th Earl of Warwick (1237-~1298)
[18093039] Maud fitz John (~1237-~1301)
[18093040] Sir Humphrey de Bohun, VI, Earl of Hereford and Essex
(~1223-1265)
[18093041] Eleanor de Braiose (~1223-)
[18093052] Sir Richard de Clare, 8th Earl of Clare (1222-1262)
[18093053] Maud de Lacy, Countess of Lincoln (~1222-<1289)
[18093055] Maud de Prendergast (~1242-)
Generation 26
[36185897] Margaret de Quincy (~1220-<1281)
[36185898] Sir Humphrey de Bohun, VI, Earl of Hereford and Essex
(~1223-1265) (same as 18093040)
[36185899] Eleanor de Braiose (~1223-) (same as 18093041)
[36185903] Margaret de Quincy (~1220-<1281) (same as 36185897)
[36185933] Avelina fitz John (~1230-~1274)
[36186051] Maud de Braoise (~1230-<1301)
[36186056] William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey (1166-1240)
[36186057] Maud Marshal, Countess of Norfolk (<1195-1248)
[36186061] Hawise de Quincy (~1201-)
[36186077] Isabel Maudit (1227-<1268)
[36186079] Isabel Bigod (-)
[36186080] Humphrey de Bohun, V, 2nd Earl of Hereford (<1208-1275)
[36186081] Maud d'Eu (~1208-1241)
[36186083] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246)
[36186104] Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl of Clare (~1180-1230)
[36186105] Isabel Marshal (1200-1240)
[36186106] John de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln (~1191-1240)
[36186107] Margaret de Quincy (~1195-~1266)
[36186110] Gerald de Prendergast (~1200-1251)
Generation 27
[72371794] Roger de Quincy, 2nd Earl of Winchester (~1198-1264)
[72371867] Isabel Bigod (-) (same as 36186079)
[72372103] Eva Marshal, of Pembroke (~1208-<1246) (same as 72371799)
[72372113] Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey (-1199)
[72372115] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220) (same as
144743599)
[72372123] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235)
[72372154] William Maudit, Lord of Hanslope and Hartley Maudit
(~1193-1257)
[72372155] Alice de Newburgh (~1193-~1246)
[72372159] Maud Marshal, Countess of Norfolk (<1195-1248) (same as
36186057)
[72372160] Henry de Bohun, 1st Earl of Hereford (1176-1220)
[72372163] Alice d'Eu, Countess of Eu (~1178-1246)
[72372167] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220)
[72372209] Amice fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester (~1155-1225)
[72372211] Isabel de Clare, Countess of Pembroke (~1174-1220) (same as
72372167)
[72372213] Maud de Clare (~1170-)
[72372214] Robert de Quincy, II, Earl of Winchester (-1217)
[72372221] Maud de Quincy (1173-)
Generation 28
[144743589] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235) (same as 72372123)
[144744226] William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey (1118-1148)
[144744246] Robert de Beaumont, III, 3rd Earl of Leicester (<1135-1190)
[144744308] Robert Maudit, Lord of Hanslope (~1163-1222)
[144744310] Waleran de Newburgh, 4th Earl of Warwick (<1153-1204)
[144744321] Margaret de Huntingdon (~1141-1201)
[144744327] Maud de Warenne (~1162-1207)
[144744334] Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (~1130-~1176)
[144744419] Hawise de Beaumont (~1131-1197)
[144744427] Amice fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester (~1155-1225)
(same as 72372209)
[144744429] Margaret de Beaumont (~1151-1235) (same as 144743589)
[144744443] Basile de Clare (~1158-~1203)
Generation 29
[289488453] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 1157948713)
[289488492] Sir Robert de Beaumont, II, 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104-1168)
[289488617] Isabelle de St. Liz (~1140-)
[289488621] Gundred de Warenne, Countess of Warwick (>1119->1166)
[289488643] Ada de Warenne (~1114-1178)
[289488655] Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey (-1199) (same as
72372113)
[289488669] Isabel de Beaumont (~1103-)
[289488838] Sir Robert de Beaumont, II, 2nd Earl of Leicester
(1104-1168) (same as 289488492)
[289488886] Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (~1130-~1176) (same
as 144744334)
Generation 30
[578976985] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
[578977235] Isabelle de Beaumont (<1123-)
[578977243] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 578976985)
[578977287] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 1157948713)
[578977339] Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester (<1088-<1147)
(same as 1157948713)
>
>
>
> On 10/24/2011 10:26 PM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
>> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
>> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>>
>
>
> On 10/24/2011 10:26 PM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
>> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
>> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
>>
Leo
Oct 30, 2011, 7:51:01 PM10/30/11
to Tony Hoskins, Tim Forsythe, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
> Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal
> gateway?
>
> Tony
>
to Brazil - Maria Pimentel Drummond and Maria de Carpentier
to Northern America
Robert Abel III - James Abercromby - Paul Abney - James Alexander - Mary
Allyn - Elizabeth Alsop - John Alston - Alicia Arnold - Hon. Anne Arundell -
William Asfordby - Barbara Aubrey - Henry Aubrey - Robert Baillie -
Catherine Baillon - Chares Barnes - Anne Batt - Christopher Batt - Jane
Batt - Capt. Henry Batte - Anne Bayton - Marie Louise Elisabeth Bazin -
Pierre Bazin - Sir Marmaduke Beckwith - Richard Bellingham - Barbara
Bennet - Norborne Berkeley baron Botetourt - Sir William Berkeley -Col.
William Bernard - Colin Bethune - John Bethune - John Bevan - Essex
Beville - Ho.William Bladen - Sarah Blair - George Blakiston - Nathaniel
Blakiston - Nehemiah Blakiston - Capt. James Blount - Edmund Bohun - Joseph
Bolles - Elizabeth Bosvile - Anne Boteler - Mary Bourchier - Capt. Thomas
Bradbury - Thomas Bradley - Col. Giles Brent - Margaret Brent - William
Brodnax - Thomas Broughton - Nathaniel Browne - Mary Bruen - Obadiah Bruen -
Rev. Edward Bulkeley - Elizabeth Bulkeley - Martha Bulkeley - Rev. Peter
Bulkeley - Thomas Bulkeley - Stephen Bull - Isabel Burnett - Nathaniel
Burrough - Charles Calvert 3rd Lord Baltimore - Alexander Campbell - Colin
Campbell - David Campbell - Patrick Campbell - Edward Carleton - Charles
Chambers - Capt. Francis Champernoun - Rev. Charles Chauncey - Sarah
Chauncey - Kenelm Cheseldyne - Grace Chetwode - Wisemann Clagett - Capt.
Jeremy Clarke - James Claypoole - Joseph Claypoole - James Clifton - Charles
Clinton - Christiana Clinton - William Clopton - Alexander Cochrane -
St.Leger Codd - John Coke - Elizabeth Coytemore - John Cranston -
Christopher Craven - Eyre Coote Croker - Gen. James Cudworth - Sir Alexander
Cuming - Robert Cunyngham - Richard Curson - James Cuthbert - Major Francis
Dade - Rev. John Davenport - Humphrey Davie - Margaret Davis - Frances
Deighton - Jane Deighton - Katherine Deighton - Anne Derehaugh - Robert
Dering - Col. Edward Digges - Mary Drake - Colin Drummond - Anne Dudley -
Rev. Samuel Dudley - Thomas Dudley - James Dundas - Thomas Dundas -
Archibald Dunlop - Ralph Eddowes - George Elkington - Martha Eltonhead -
Francis Eyre - Thomas 6th lord Fairfax - William Fairfax - Alexander
Falconar - Gilbert Falconar -William Farrar - Elizabeth Farwell - John
Farwell - Susan Felton - George Fenwick - John Fenwick - John Fenwick -
Henrietta Fielding - John Fisher - Edward FitzRandolph - Capt. Henry
Fleete - Rev. Edward Foliot - John Forbes - Col. Gerard Fowke - Thomas
Fowke - Mary Fulford - Peter Penn Gaskell - Dr. Thomas Gerard - Robert
Gibbs - Temperence Gilbert - Sarah Gloss - Thomas Gordon - Anne Gorsuch -
Charles Gorsuch - Richard Gorsuch - James Graham - Janet Graham - John
Graham - Alexander Grant - Muriel Gurdon - Elizabeth Hagburne - George
Haig - David Haldane - Catherine Hamby - Thomas Hamilton - Mabel
Harlakenden - Afra Harleston - Elizabeth Harleston - John Harleston -
Catherine Haselrige - Jane Haviland - Col. Ann Hawkes Hay - Michael Hay -
John Henry - Joshua Henshaw - Mary Helen Hering - Ralph Hilton - John
Hinton - Thomas Holford - Col. Warham Horsmanden - Anne Humphrey - Daniel
Humphrey - Edward Hutchinson - Edward Hyde - Francis Ironmonger - William
Ironmonger - John Irvine - James Irving - Capt. Henry Isham - Rev. Thomas
James - Hon. Edmund Jennings - Mary Jephson - John Jones - Martha Jones -
William Kennedy - Sarah Kenrick - John Kinloch - Joseph Kirkbride - Sir
Ralph Lane - Mary Launce - Christopher Lawson - Jeanne Le Marchand - Michel
Le Neuf - Thomas Lechmere - Samuel Levis - Judith Lewis - Mary Lewis -
Col.Thomas Ligon - Rev. David Lindsay - Bridget Lisle - Nathaniel
Littleton - William Henry 1st Baron Littleton - Robert Livingston the
Elder - Gov.Thomas Lloyd - Sophia van Lodensteyn - James Logan - Catherine
Maria Long - Anne Lovelace - Jane Lowe - Percival Lowell - Charles Lowndes -
Christopher Lowndes - Gabriel Ludlow - Roger Ludlow - Hon. Simon Lynde -
Isabella MacDonald - John MacDonald - John MacDonald - Alexander Macdonell -
Alexander Macdonell - Allan Macdonell - John Macdonell - Daniel Macgregor
otherwise Drummond - Samuel Mackay - Allan MacNab - Alexander Magruder -
Philip Mallory - Roger Mallory - Anne Mansfield - Elizabeth Mansfield - John
Mansfield - Oliver Manwaring - Anne Marbury - Catherine Marbury - Elizabeth
Marshall - Anne Mauleverer - Annanias McKay - George Alexander McKay -
Francoise de Meherenc de Montmirel - Barbara Mitford - Hon. Robert
Monckton - Lord Charles Greville Montagu - William Montgomery - Richard
More - James Morgan - James Murray - Joseph Need - John Nelson - Margaret
Nelson - Capt. Philip Nelson - Thomas Nelson - Katherine Neville - Hester
Newton - Richard Nichols - Sir Alexander Nisbet Bt - Col. Henry Norwood -
Edward Nott - Samuel Ogle - James Edward Oglethorpe - Alexander Oliphant -
Charles Oliphant - David Oliphant - Katherine Oliphant - Laurence Oliphant -
John Orr - Sir Danvers Osborn - Joshua Owen - Rebecca Owen - Robert Owen -
Rev. John Oxenbridge - Elizabeth Palgrave - Mary Palgrave - Dr. Richard
Palgrave - Sarah Palgrave - Rev. Thomas Palmer - Thomas William Palmer -
Edward Palmes - George Parker - Richard Parker - Herbert Pelham -
Philadelphia Pelham - Hon. George Percy - Robert Peyton - Elizabeth Poole -
William Poole - Capt. George Popham - John Price - Henry Randolph - Col.
William Randolph - Edward Raynsford - Col. George Reade - Charles Rodes -
William Rodney - Capt. William Rodney - Robert Rollo - Rev. Robert Rose -
Thomas Rudyard - Elizabeth St.John - Katherine St.Leger - Maj-Gen. Arthur
Saint Clair - Major Richard Saltonstall - Henry Sewall - Major Nicholas
Sewall - Rev. William Skepper - Anne Skipwith - Diana Skipwith - Sir Grey
Skipwith - Maria Johanna Somerset - Constant Southworth - Nicholas Spencer -
Penelope Spencer - Alexander Spotswood - Thomas Stanton - George Steuart -
Alexander Stewart - Charles Stewart - Lady Christiana Stewart - John
Stewart - Patrick Stewart - Judge Peter Stewart - William Stewart - Charles
Stirling - James Stirling - Lewis Stirling - Robert Stirling - John
Stockman - Arthur Storer - Rose Stoughton - John Stratton - John Stratton -
William 'the Immigrant' Strother - Mary Sutherland - Elizabeth
Throckmorton - John Throckmorton - Richard Tilghman - Lawrence Townley -
William Tryon - Henry Tucker - St.George Tucker - Elizabeth Tyng - John
Umfreville - Mary Umfreville - Sir Henry Vane - Jane Vaughan - Jean Baptiste
Donatien de Vimeur comte de Rochambeau - Col. John Washington - Lawrence
Washington - Olive Welby - William Wentworth - Capt. John West - Edward
Whalley - Col. John Whittington - Leighton Wilson - Edward Windham - Thomas
Wingfield - Mary Wolseley - Henry Woodhouse - Peter Worden - Robert
Wright - Edward Wyatt - Sir Francis Wyatt - Rev. Hawte Wyatt - John Wyatt -
Margaret Wyatt - Amy Wyllys - George Yate - John Yates - Robert Yonge
J Cook
Oct 30, 2011, 8:38:38 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 7:51 pm, "Leo" <can2...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
> > Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal
> > gateway?
>
> > Tony
>
> I hope if I miss some, people will let me know:
And Anthony Savage: http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00555477&tree=LEO
> > Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal
> > gateway?
>
> > Tony
>
> I hope if I miss some, people will let me know:
Whom you already show this descent from de Vermandois
HTH,
Joe C
J Cook
Oct 30, 2011, 8:29:41 PM10/30/11
to
> I hope if I miss some, people will let me know:
Yes, I believe you missed Mary Gye. who has at least 7 descents
herself from de Vermandois:
1. Isabel de Beaumont -> Richard de Clare ->Isabel de Clare -> Sibyl
Marshal -> Maud de Ferrers -> Joan de Vivonne -> Peter Fitz Reynold ->
Roger Martel -> Henry FitzRoger -> John FitzRoger -> Elizabeth
FitzRoger -> Hugh Stuckley -> Nicholas Stuckley -> Thomas Stuckley->
Margery Stuckley -> Anne Farringdon -> Grace Dowrish -> Mary Gye
2. Isabel de Beaumont -> Richard de Clare ->Isabel de Clare -> Eve
Marshal -> Eva de Braose -> Joan de Cantilupe -> John de hastings ->
Hugh de Hastings -> Maud de Hastings -> Willema de la Mare -> Joan
Roaches -> John Bayntun -> Henry Bayntun -> Jane Bayntun -> Mary
Prowse -> Robert Gye -> Mary Gye
3. Isabel de Beaumont -> Richard de Clare ->Isabel de Clare -> Maud
Marshal -> Isabel Bigod -> Maud FitzJohn -> Isabel Beauchamp ->
Isabel le Despenser -> Hugh de Hastings -> Maud de Hastings ->
Wilhelma de la Mare -> Joan Roaches -> John Bayntun -> Henry Bayntun -
> Jane Bayntun -> Mary Prowse -> Robert Gye -> Mary Gye
4.Robert de Beaumont -> Robert de Beaumont -> Margaret de Beaumont ->
Roger de Quincy -> Ellen de Quincy -> Roger le Zouche -> Alan le
Zouche -> Maud le Zouche -> Elizabeth de Holand -> John FitzRoger ->
Elizabeth FitzRoger -> Hugh Stuckley -> Nicholas Stuckley -> Thomas
Stuckley-> Margery Stuckley -> Anne Farringdon -> Grace Dowrish ->
Mary Gye
5. Robert de Beaumont -> Hawise de Beaumont -> Amicia of Gloucester ->
Maud de Clare -> John de Braose -> William de Braose -> William de
Brewes -> Joan de Brewes -> Margery Foliot -> Maud de Hastings ->
Willema de la Mare -> Joan Roaches -> John Bayntun -> Henry Bayntun ->
Jane Bayntun -> Mary Prowse -> Robert Gye -> Mary Gye
6. Robert de Beaumont -> Elizabeth de Beaumont -> Isabel de St. Liz ->
Robert Mauduit -> William Mauduit -> Isabel Mauduit -> William de
Beauchamp -> Isabel Beauchamp -> Isabel le Despenser -> Hugh de
Hastings -> Maud de Hastings -> Wilhelma de la Mare -> Joan Roaches ->
John Bayntun -> Henry Bayntun -> Jane Bayntun -> Mary Prowse -> Robert
Gye -> Mary Gye
7. Gundred de Warenne -> Waleran de Newburgh -> Alice de Newburgh ->
Isabel Mauduit -> William de Beauchamp -> Isabel Beauchamp -> Isabel
le Despenser -> Hugh de Hastings -> Maud de Hastings -> Wilhelma de la
Mare -> Joan Roaches -> John Bayntun -> Henry Bayntun -> Jane Bayntun -
> Mary Prowse -> Robert Gye -> Mary Gye
HTH,
Joe C
Sholom Simon
Oct 30, 2011, 10:28:45 PM10/30/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, can...@netspeed.com.au
Leo, thanks so much for posting the entire list!
>I hope if I miss some, people will let me know:
Yep -- I have a question on one:
You mention Thomas Stanton. I see on your website there are no
parents linked to him.
Thoughts?
-- Sholom
>I hope if I miss some, people will let me know:
You mention Thomas Stanton. I see on your website there are no
parents linked to him.
Thoughts?
-- Sholom
Robert Forrest
Oct 30, 2011, 11:08:42 PM10/30/11
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Douglas Richardson charges that Bartlett's Newberry Genealogy was fraudulent,
that Bartlett altered the list of the children of Richard Newberry of Yarcombe,
and that Bartlett "carefully omitted" a transcript of the 1696 will of William
Newberry of Yarcombe.
Joseph (not John) Gardner Bartlett was a reputable professional genealogist of
the early 1900s. Like all genealogist and other mortals he undoubtedly made
mistakes in his work. I am unaware he ever evinced any intention to defraud, and
I would like to ask Mr. Richardson the basis for such a serious accusation.
To summarize the point at issue in a very few words: in his 1914 Newberry
Genealogy, Bartlett wrote that Thomas the emigrant was a grandson of Richard
Newberry of Othe Francis, Netherbury, Dorset and Yarcombe, Devon. The College of
Arms claimed he was a grandson of William Newberry of Yarcombe. Richard of
Netherbury was a younger son of a long line of Newburghs extending back for many
generations.
The R. Stanton Avery Special Collections at the NEHGS contain a 1925 exchange of
letters between Bartlett and A. T. Butler of the College of Arms.
Butler wrote to call Bartlett's attention to some recent findings of the
College of Arms while investigating the pedigree of the emigrant Thomas
Newberry, with a view to registration in the College. In an objective and--I
think the word is 'collegial'--tone, Butler pointed out evidence found which
supported the contention that Thomas' grandfather was William of Yarcombe.
Butler closed with, "...though we have disproved your pedigree I feel sure from
the searches which have been made that all these Newberrys in Dorsetshire at
this period were descended from the original stock."
In his reply to this letter from the College of Arms, Bartlett wrote, "I have
done no professional work on Newberry for over a dozen years, but have
occasionally come across by accident some additional evidences not included in
my book, which I have been interested to note and which confirm my previous
conclusions." He went on to say, "After careful study of the chart and data you
sent, and comparison with my own data, I do not agree with all your conclusions.
Although Richard Newberry as 'son' was one of the administrators of the estate
of Ellen Newberry of Yarcomb in 1609, as you state, he was not of Yarcombe then
and never was of that parish as far as I can find; he was really a step-son and
not own son of Ellen and was a resident of Membury then and for over a score of
years preceeding [sic]. Among several evidences I have of his long residence in
Membury is a suit in 1591 of Richard Newberry of Membury, Co. Devon, against
William Shegge, regarding "the estate in Yarcombe, Co. Devon held by William
Haydon (footnote: '...later mentioned in the will of Richard Newberry in 1618,
then of Shute') and occupied by William Newberry father of complainant."
Bartlett went on to defend his previous research with additional information. In
doing so mentions a deposition and a deed which term Richard as of Leavinhey,
Devon; that Richard's son Robert Newberry (b. 1592) succeeded to Leavinhey in
Yarcomb and that Robert settled it on his son Samuel Newberry (b. 1631) who
about the time of his marriage rebuilt the house on the estate, and that the
chimney in 1910 still bore his initials "S. N." and the date 1653.
Bartlett then wrote, "I agree with your conclusion that all the Newboroughs,
Newberrys, etc., of the 17th century of Yarcombe, Membury, Colyton, Dallwood,
Stockland, etc., doubtless derived from the ancient Newburghs of Winfrith, Co.
Dorset, seated there from the time of Henry I. I therefore assume they had a
hereditary right to the old Newburg arms, although its use by them probably long
lay dormant. I infer the college is satisfied that the emigrant Thomas...was the
man born at Yarcomb in 1594...If the college is satisfied to register the old
Newburgh arms to any descendant of this Thomas Newberry (regardless of his line
or name) I do not see that the right [underlined] is strengthened any by showing
that Thomas' father Richard was son of William (even if this claim were true) as
William was merely of yeoman rank as was his father before him. I should say
that these Memburys, Dallwood, Stockland, etc. Newberrys must have branched off
the main line at Winfrith prior to 1400." He concluded by expressing his desire
to publish his additional data to clarify this matter. However, Bartlett died
the next year.
A. T. Butler of the College of Arms answered Bartlett with:
"...Your pedigree is a wonderful and creditable piece of work, and I should be
only too pleased (as would my client) if it could be established to the
satisfaction of the official examiners, and thus enable the College to allow the
right of the emigrants' descendants to bear the arms, which cannot be done as
matters stand at present." Butler then made a few more points supporting his
position, including the exceptionally well kept Yarcombe parish register, in
which the only Newberry burials between 1606 and 1639 are:
12 May 1606 William Newberry, s. of Richard.
6 Aug 1606 Dorothy Newberry, d. of Richard.
26 Jun 1609 Ellen Newberry, widow
18 Dec 1632 Grace Newberry, wife of Richard.
20 Aug 1639 Richard Newberry.
Anyone researching this family in east Devon and Dorset in the 1500s and 1600s
will soon find themselves drowning in a sea of Newberrys--Up Ottery, Yarcombe,
Membury, Dalwood, Stockland, Shute, Axminster, Widworthy, Honiton, Totnes,
Symondsbury, etc. Many of these places are only a few miles apart, and all have
some connection with the Newberrys, including a good supply of Richards,
Williams, and Johns. Bartlett's book shows he did a careful investigation of
these Newberrys in his search for Thomas' ancestry. Several Newberry wills bear
on the issue. One will is central: that of William Newbery of Yarcombe, who died
1596. A typed transcript of this will is included in the Newberry folder in the
Avery Special Collections of NEHGS, and may have been the same one available to
Bartlett. Here it is, in full:
"William Newbery, of Yornscombe, co. Devon.
Dated:- 26 May, 1596.
Wife:- Ellen.
Tristram Smith & his wife, & their children (under age).
William Smith, & his children (under age).
John Smith, & his boy (under age).
Richard Newbery's children, (under age).
Res. leg. & exor:- son Richard.
Wits:- Thomas Mayor, vicar, William Hamlyn & Hugh Billings.
Proved:- 6 Dec., 1596, by Fr'cs. Clerk, pub-not., proctor to Richard Newberye,
exor.
(P.C.C. 90 Drake.)"
It would be helpful to have the full text of the original will, if someone has
access to the wills in the Drake folio as proved before the Prerog. Court of
Canterbury. However, if the order of the legatees is as in the original text, it
suggests that the Smith family was more important to William Newbery than were
Richard Newbery's children. Also, it seems curious that William refers to
"Richard Newbery's children," but not "my grandchildren", somehow distancing his
own son (step-son?) Richard from those children.
Finally, a note on the manor of Leavinhey, Devon. This is a critical point for
Bartlett's argument, because it moves Richard of Netherbury 24 km west to
Yarcombe, where he can be the father of Thomas. Mr. Richardson has found a place
called Livingshayes near Silverton, some 8 miles west of Yarcombe. Both places
survive today on the Ordnance Survey maps, with Livenhayes Farm 1 km SW of
Yarcombe and Livingshayes 1 km NE of Silverton. Mr. Richardson says that
Silverton is "more likely the place intended", but he provides no evidence for
his assertion. Recall that Bartlett was kind enough to provide more information
on the subsequent Newberrys of Leavinhey, even down to those 1653 chimney
initials for Samuel Newberry. I could find nothing in A2A (Access to Archives)
for Leavinhey or some variants, but for Yarcombe Parish, the Devon Record
Office reference 1150A is a list of the feoffees and disposition of Longcraft
Meadow, and has this:
"Including:
PF 9 "A list of the names of those persons that contributed to the Charity for
the poor of Yarcombe... The abovesaid summes are parte of the purchase money
paid to William Dollin for Long-craft meadow in Yarcombe." 1692
PF11, 12 Lease and Release 1692
1 Wm Dolling 2 Jn Matthews, Henry Newberry, Sam Newberry jun., Robt Vincent, Sam
Cosens, Ric Steevens, Nich's Knight, Jas Vincent sen., Wm Vincent jun., Jn
Domett sen., as Feoffees.
PF13 Feoffees deed of trust. 1692...",
which, while hardly definitive, does give us a Samuel Newberry of Yarcombe who
was contemporary with Bartlett's Samuel of Leavinhey.
In summary, this matter is not settled. Bartlett did not hide or conceal the
information that a William of Yarcombe had a son Richard, but equated him with
Richard of Shute. As things stand now, both assertions depend on such subtleties
as the wording in wills, the abbreviations used in parish records, and the
recurrence of the same given names. Serious researchers can obtain the letters
and other Newberry materials from the Avery Special Collections at NEHGS.
Robert Forrest
that Bartlett altered the list of the children of Richard Newberry of Yarcombe,
and that Bartlett "carefully omitted" a transcript of the 1696 will of William
Newberry of Yarcombe.
Joseph (not John) Gardner Bartlett was a reputable professional genealogist of
the early 1900s. Like all genealogist and other mortals he undoubtedly made
mistakes in his work. I am unaware he ever evinced any intention to defraud, and
I would like to ask Mr. Richardson the basis for such a serious accusation.
To summarize the point at issue in a very few words: in his 1914 Newberry
Genealogy, Bartlett wrote that Thomas the emigrant was a grandson of Richard
Newberry of Othe Francis, Netherbury, Dorset and Yarcombe, Devon. The College of
Arms claimed he was a grandson of William Newberry of Yarcombe. Richard of
Netherbury was a younger son of a long line of Newburghs extending back for many
generations.
The R. Stanton Avery Special Collections at the NEHGS contain a 1925 exchange of
letters between Bartlett and A. T. Butler of the College of Arms.
Butler wrote to call Bartlett's attention to some recent findings of the
College of Arms while investigating the pedigree of the emigrant Thomas
Newberry, with a view to registration in the College. In an objective and--I
think the word is 'collegial'--tone, Butler pointed out evidence found which
supported the contention that Thomas' grandfather was William of Yarcombe.
Butler closed with, "...though we have disproved your pedigree I feel sure from
the searches which have been made that all these Newberrys in Dorsetshire at
this period were descended from the original stock."
In his reply to this letter from the College of Arms, Bartlett wrote, "I have
done no professional work on Newberry for over a dozen years, but have
occasionally come across by accident some additional evidences not included in
my book, which I have been interested to note and which confirm my previous
conclusions." He went on to say, "After careful study of the chart and data you
sent, and comparison with my own data, I do not agree with all your conclusions.
Although Richard Newberry as 'son' was one of the administrators of the estate
of Ellen Newberry of Yarcomb in 1609, as you state, he was not of Yarcombe then
and never was of that parish as far as I can find; he was really a step-son and
not own son of Ellen and was a resident of Membury then and for over a score of
years preceeding [sic]. Among several evidences I have of his long residence in
Membury is a suit in 1591 of Richard Newberry of Membury, Co. Devon, against
William Shegge, regarding "the estate in Yarcombe, Co. Devon held by William
Haydon (footnote: '...later mentioned in the will of Richard Newberry in 1618,
then of Shute') and occupied by William Newberry father of complainant."
Bartlett went on to defend his previous research with additional information. In
doing so mentions a deposition and a deed which term Richard as of Leavinhey,
Devon; that Richard's son Robert Newberry (b. 1592) succeeded to Leavinhey in
Yarcomb and that Robert settled it on his son Samuel Newberry (b. 1631) who
about the time of his marriage rebuilt the house on the estate, and that the
chimney in 1910 still bore his initials "S. N." and the date 1653.
Bartlett then wrote, "I agree with your conclusion that all the Newboroughs,
Newberrys, etc., of the 17th century of Yarcombe, Membury, Colyton, Dallwood,
Stockland, etc., doubtless derived from the ancient Newburghs of Winfrith, Co.
Dorset, seated there from the time of Henry I. I therefore assume they had a
hereditary right to the old Newburg arms, although its use by them probably long
lay dormant. I infer the college is satisfied that the emigrant Thomas...was the
man born at Yarcomb in 1594...If the college is satisfied to register the old
Newburgh arms to any descendant of this Thomas Newberry (regardless of his line
or name) I do not see that the right [underlined] is strengthened any by showing
that Thomas' father Richard was son of William (even if this claim were true) as
William was merely of yeoman rank as was his father before him. I should say
that these Memburys, Dallwood, Stockland, etc. Newberrys must have branched off
the main line at Winfrith prior to 1400." He concluded by expressing his desire
to publish his additional data to clarify this matter. However, Bartlett died
the next year.
A. T. Butler of the College of Arms answered Bartlett with:
"...Your pedigree is a wonderful and creditable piece of work, and I should be
only too pleased (as would my client) if it could be established to the
satisfaction of the official examiners, and thus enable the College to allow the
right of the emigrants' descendants to bear the arms, which cannot be done as
matters stand at present." Butler then made a few more points supporting his
position, including the exceptionally well kept Yarcombe parish register, in
which the only Newberry burials between 1606 and 1639 are:
12 May 1606 William Newberry, s. of Richard.
6 Aug 1606 Dorothy Newberry, d. of Richard.
26 Jun 1609 Ellen Newberry, widow
18 Dec 1632 Grace Newberry, wife of Richard.
20 Aug 1639 Richard Newberry.
Anyone researching this family in east Devon and Dorset in the 1500s and 1600s
will soon find themselves drowning in a sea of Newberrys--Up Ottery, Yarcombe,
Membury, Dalwood, Stockland, Shute, Axminster, Widworthy, Honiton, Totnes,
Symondsbury, etc. Many of these places are only a few miles apart, and all have
some connection with the Newberrys, including a good supply of Richards,
Williams, and Johns. Bartlett's book shows he did a careful investigation of
these Newberrys in his search for Thomas' ancestry. Several Newberry wills bear
on the issue. One will is central: that of William Newbery of Yarcombe, who died
1596. A typed transcript of this will is included in the Newberry folder in the
Avery Special Collections of NEHGS, and may have been the same one available to
Bartlett. Here it is, in full:
"William Newbery, of Yornscombe, co. Devon.
Dated:- 26 May, 1596.
Wife:- Ellen.
Tristram Smith & his wife, & their children (under age).
William Smith, & his children (under age).
John Smith, & his boy (under age).
Richard Newbery's children, (under age).
Res. leg. & exor:- son Richard.
Wits:- Thomas Mayor, vicar, William Hamlyn & Hugh Billings.
Proved:- 6 Dec., 1596, by Fr'cs. Clerk, pub-not., proctor to Richard Newberye,
exor.
(P.C.C. 90 Drake.)"
It would be helpful to have the full text of the original will, if someone has
access to the wills in the Drake folio as proved before the Prerog. Court of
Canterbury. However, if the order of the legatees is as in the original text, it
suggests that the Smith family was more important to William Newbery than were
Richard Newbery's children. Also, it seems curious that William refers to
"Richard Newbery's children," but not "my grandchildren", somehow distancing his
own son (step-son?) Richard from those children.
Finally, a note on the manor of Leavinhey, Devon. This is a critical point for
Bartlett's argument, because it moves Richard of Netherbury 24 km west to
Yarcombe, where he can be the father of Thomas. Mr. Richardson has found a place
called Livingshayes near Silverton, some 8 miles west of Yarcombe. Both places
survive today on the Ordnance Survey maps, with Livenhayes Farm 1 km SW of
Yarcombe and Livingshayes 1 km NE of Silverton. Mr. Richardson says that
Silverton is "more likely the place intended", but he provides no evidence for
his assertion. Recall that Bartlett was kind enough to provide more information
on the subsequent Newberrys of Leavinhey, even down to those 1653 chimney
initials for Samuel Newberry. I could find nothing in A2A (Access to Archives)
for Leavinhey or some variants, but for Yarcombe Parish, the Devon Record
Office reference 1150A is a list of the feoffees and disposition of Longcraft
Meadow, and has this:
"Including:
PF 9 "A list of the names of those persons that contributed to the Charity for
the poor of Yarcombe... The abovesaid summes are parte of the purchase money
paid to William Dollin for Long-craft meadow in Yarcombe." 1692
PF11, 12 Lease and Release 1692
1 Wm Dolling 2 Jn Matthews, Henry Newberry, Sam Newberry jun., Robt Vincent, Sam
Cosens, Ric Steevens, Nich's Knight, Jas Vincent sen., Wm Vincent jun., Jn
Domett sen., as Feoffees.
PF13 Feoffees deed of trust. 1692...",
which, while hardly definitive, does give us a Samuel Newberry of Yarcombe who
was contemporary with Bartlett's Samuel of Leavinhey.
In summary, this matter is not settled. Bartlett did not hide or conceal the
information that a William of Yarcombe had a son Richard, but equated him with
Richard of Shute. As things stand now, both assertions depend on such subtleties
as the wording in wills, the abbreviations used in parish records, and the
recurrence of the same given names. Serious researchers can obtain the letters
and other Newberry materials from the Avery Special Collections at NEHGS.
Robert Forrest
Vivien Martin
Oct 30, 2011, 11:23:57 PM10/30/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Leo" <can...@netspeed.com.au>
> To: "Tony Hoskins" <thos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us>, "'Tim Forsythe'" <
> tjfor...@gmail.com>, <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:51:01 +1100
> Subject: Elizabeth de Vermandois - to Gateway Ancestors
>
>
>> Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal
>> gateway?
>>
>> Tony
>>
> From: "Leo" <can...@netspeed.com.au>
> To: "Tony Hoskins" <thos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us>, "'Tim Forsythe'" <
> tjfor...@gmail.com>, <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:51:01 +1100
> Subject: Elizabeth de Vermandois - to Gateway Ancestors
>
>
>> Leo, is it feasible to get a number of Isabel-descents/American royal
>> gateway?
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> I hope if I miss some, people will let me know:
>
>
If James Murray is a descendant of Elizabeth de Vermandois then so too is
his neice, Ann Murray m. William Dummer Powell from whom I descend. I am
sure I have more descents than two, I just have not spent the time to
complete that section of my ancestry.
Cheers
Vivien
Douglas Richardson
Oct 31, 2011, 12:01:34 AM10/31/11
to
On Oct 30, 9:08 pm, "Robert Forrest" <forr...@whidbey.com> wrote:
< Douglas Richardson charges that Bartlett's Newberry Genealogy was
fraudulent,
< that Bartlett altered the list of the children of Richard Newberry
of Yarcombe,
< and that Bartlett "carefully omitted" a transcript of the 1696 will
of William
< Newberry of Yarcombe.
Yes, that is correct. My statements are truthful.
< Douglas Richardson charges that Bartlett's Newberry Genealogy was
fraudulent,
< that Bartlett altered the list of the children of Richard Newberry
of Yarcombe,
< and that Bartlett "carefully omitted" a transcript of the 1696 will
of William
< Newberry of Yarcombe.
< Joseph (not John) Gardner Bartlett was a reputable professional
genealogist of
< the early 1900s. Like all genealogist and other mortals he
undoubtedly made
< mistakes in his work. I am unaware he ever evinced any intention to
defraud, and
< I would like to ask Mr. Richardson the basis for such a serious
accusation.
so to create the distinct impression that the immigrant's father,
Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon was the same person as Richard
Newborough (or Newburgh), Gentleman, a known younger son of Richard
Newborough, Gentleman, of Othe Francis (in Netherbury), Dorset (died c.
1570), by his wife, Elizabeth Horsey. As I stated earlier, there is
no evidence that the immigrant's father was ever a gentlemen. Right
there you have a red flag.
If you look at Mr. Gardner's rebuttal to A. T. Butler of the College
of Arms (which you kindly quoted), you will see that Mr. Bartlett
claimed to have several pieces of evidence which seemed to support his
conclusions. However, he failed to give his sources for this
information (which is also typical of his writing style). By any
chance, do you have copies of any of these relevant documents? If so,
please post them so we can see them for ourselves.
I want to be a believer. Just show me the evidence.
John
Oct 31, 2011, 12:46:17 AM10/31/11
to
On Oct 30, 9:01 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 9:08 pm, "Robert Forrest" <forr...@whidbey.com> wrote:
>
> < Douglas Richardson charges that Bartlett's Newberry Genealogy was
> fraudulent,
> < that Bartlett altered the list of the children of Richard Newberry
> of Yarcombe,
> < and that Bartlett "carefully omitted" a transcript of the 1696 will
> of William
> < Newberry of Yarcombe.
>
> Yes, that is correct. My statements are truthful.
Perhaps truthful....but unsupported by any sources so far - a practice
> On Oct 30, 9:08 pm, "Robert Forrest" <forr...@whidbey.com> wrote:
>
> < Douglas Richardson charges that Bartlett's Newberry Genealogy was
> fraudulent,
> < that Bartlett altered the list of the children of Richard Newberry
> of Yarcombe,
> < and that Bartlett "carefully omitted" a transcript of the 1696 will
> of William
> < Newberry of Yarcombe.
>
> Yes, that is correct. My statements are truthful.
for which you roundly criticize Mr. Bartlett below.
To paraphrase your statement below, do you have copies of any relevant
sources that support your assertions? If so, please post them (or
cite them) so we can see them for ourselves.
[Your comment about Mr. Bartlett's failure to provide source as being
"typical of his writing style" is rather ironic, to put it mildly.
Pot, meet kettle...]
Douglas Richardson
Oct 31, 2011, 6:46:05 PM10/31/11
to
Dear Tim ~
In my earlier post regarding the fraudulent pedigree of the immigrant,
Mr. Thomas Newberry, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, I noted that Mr.
Bartlett had identified Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon [the
known father of the immigrant] as a younger son of Richard Newborough,
Mr. Bartlett claimed that Richard Newberry [father of the immigrant]
was the same person as “Richard Newborough, of Leavenhey, co. Devon,
Elizabeth Woodshaw.
Yesterday, however, I located another record regarding Richard
Newborough, Gentleman, which shows he was a resident at Bradpole,
Dorset in 1592-3. I assume this is the same person as Richard
Newborough, Gentleman, who was living in 1594 at "Leavenhey," Devon.
Hays, Records of Early English Drama: Dorset, Cornwall (1999): 142
show that in 1592–3 Richarde Newborough, Gentleman, [of Bradpole] gave
iii d. towards the building of the market house and school house of
Bridport, Dorset). On pg. 143 it shows that a Mr. Newboroughe
promised di. bushell of wheat at Netherbury & Mangerton, Dorset for
the same purpose.
These items may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7D_MPVfVyC8C&pg=PA142
Bradpole is 1 mile south of Mangerton, Dorset. Bradpole is
approximately 2 miles south of Netherbury, Dorset. Netherbury, of
course, is the home parish of Richard Newborough's parents, Richard
Newborough, Gent. (your Generation 15) (died c.1570), and his wife,
Elizabeth Horsey. Mr. Newborough at Netherbury and Mangerton is
presumably a different man than Richard Newborough, Gentleman.
For the exact location of these localites, see the following weblink:
http://mc.multimap.com/maps/?qs=Bradpole&countryCode=GB#map=50.77186,-2.76375|13|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:50.79074:-2.75355:14|Netherbury|Netherbury,%20Bridport,%20Dorset,%20England,%20DT6%205
Since it can be shown that the immigrant's father, Richard Newberry,
was living at Yarcombe, Devon in this time period and that he was
never styled gentleman, it is clear that Richard Newborough, Gentleman
is a completely different individual. Furthermore, we know from the
will of Richard Newborough's brother, William Newborough, Gent., dated
1632 that Richard Newborough, Gent., of Dorset had seven children
living in that year, and that Richard was likely then deceased. The
immigrant's father, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, on the the
hand, was still living in 1632, and had only five children living
(maybe even less). It was Mr. Bartlett's fraud that created the false
impression that Richard Newberry of Yarcombe, Devon was a gentleman
and that he had seven children living in 1632.
Those parties interested in the Newberry family may wish to consult an
online genealogical database which includes sourced material on the
Newberry family. The database almost exactly mirrors my own research
and conclusions. I discovered the database after I completed my own
research. It correctly identifies the immigrant's father, Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon as the son of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon and his wife, Ellen.
http://www.ourgenerationsancestors.org/getperson.php?personID=I5975&tree=OGA
In my earlier post regarding the fraudulent pedigree of the immigrant,
Mr. Thomas Newberry, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, I noted that Mr.
Bartlett had identified Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon [the
known father of the immigrant] as a younger son of Richard Newborough,
Gent. (your Generation 15), of Othe Francis (in Netherbury), Dorset
(died c.1570), by his wife, Elizabeth Horsey.
Mr. Bartlett claimed that Richard Newberry [father of the immigrant]
Gent.,” who gave testimony in 1594 in a chancery lawsuit involving
his alleged brother, Walter Newburgh, and his widowed mother,
Elizabeth Woodshaw.
Yesterday, however, I located another record regarding Richard
Newborough, Gentleman, which shows he was a resident at Bradpole,
Dorset in 1592-3. I assume this is the same person as Richard
Newborough, Gentleman, who was living in 1594 at "Leavenhey," Devon.
Hays, Records of Early English Drama: Dorset, Cornwall (1999): 142
show that in 1592–3 Richarde Newborough, Gentleman, [of Bradpole] gave
iii d. towards the building of the market house and school house of
Bridport, Dorset). On pg. 143 it shows that a Mr. Newboroughe
promised di. bushell of wheat at Netherbury & Mangerton, Dorset for
the same purpose.
These items may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7D_MPVfVyC8C&pg=PA142
Bradpole is 1 mile south of Mangerton, Dorset. Bradpole is
approximately 2 miles south of Netherbury, Dorset. Netherbury, of
course, is the home parish of Richard Newborough's parents, Richard
Newborough, Gent. (your Generation 15) (died c.1570), and his wife,
Elizabeth Horsey. Mr. Newborough at Netherbury and Mangerton is
presumably a different man than Richard Newborough, Gentleman.
For the exact location of these localites, see the following weblink:
http://mc.multimap.com/maps/?qs=Bradpole&countryCode=GB#map=50.77186,-2.76375|13|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:50.79074:-2.75355:14|Netherbury|Netherbury,%20Bridport,%20Dorset,%20England,%20DT6%205
Since it can be shown that the immigrant's father, Richard Newberry,
was living at Yarcombe, Devon in this time period and that he was
never styled gentleman, it is clear that Richard Newborough, Gentleman
is a completely different individual. Furthermore, we know from the
will of Richard Newborough's brother, William Newborough, Gent., dated
1632 that Richard Newborough, Gent., of Dorset had seven children
living in that year, and that Richard was likely then deceased. The
immigrant's father, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, on the the
hand, was still living in 1632, and had only five children living
(maybe even less). It was Mr. Bartlett's fraud that created the false
impression that Richard Newberry of Yarcombe, Devon was a gentleman
and that he had seven children living in 1632.
Those parties interested in the Newberry family may wish to consult an
online genealogical database which includes sourced material on the
Newberry family. The database almost exactly mirrors my own research
and conclusions. I discovered the database after I completed my own
research. It correctly identifies the immigrant's father, Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon as the son of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon and his wife, Ellen.
http://www.ourgenerationsancestors.org/getperson.php?personID=I5975&tree=OGA
Douglas Richardson
Oct 31, 2011, 7:13:56 PM10/31/11
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
There is a helpful listing of early land owners for Yarcombe, Devon on
Genuki at the following weblink:
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Yarcombe/YarcombeHistory.html
The listing is an index by Joan Zorn of the book, "From Monks to the
Millennium: A History of Yarcombe," by Ruth Everitt (1999).
The following entries are listed for the Newberry surname. The
numbers on the right side are page references.
Newbery, Ann --- 1685 11
Newbery, John Middle Moorhayne 1685,1727 11, 108
Newbery, Robert Blackhayes, Broadley, 1700, 1798 13, 95, 96
--- Rosehayne, South Waterhayne 1727 112,114
--- Underdown, Livenhayes 1727 119, 106
Newbury, Samuel Grovewell, Livenhayes, Moorpit 1662, 1727 02,
106,109
Newbery, Susanna Livenhayes 1727 106
Newbery, Thomas Shutlands 18th C 13, 63
As best I can determine, Samuel Newbury [sic] was associated with
Livenhayes in the parish of Yarcombe, Devon in 1662 or 1727 (both
dates are given).
But in 1600 other people are associated with this place:
Browinge, Maude Livenhayes 1600 106
Helliar, Alice Livenhayes 1600 106
Pullen, John Livenhayes 1600 106
I believe Livenhayes (or Livehayne) in Yarcombe, Devon was a farm not
a manor.
There is a helpful listing of early land owners for Yarcombe, Devon on
Genuki at the following weblink:
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Yarcombe/YarcombeHistory.html
The listing is an index by Joan Zorn of the book, "From Monks to the
Millennium: A History of Yarcombe," by Ruth Everitt (1999).
The following entries are listed for the Newberry surname. The
numbers on the right side are page references.
Newbery, Ann --- 1685 11
Newbery, John Middle Moorhayne 1685,1727 11, 108
Newbery, Robert Blackhayes, Broadley, 1700, 1798 13, 95, 96
--- Rosehayne, South Waterhayne 1727 112,114
--- Underdown, Livenhayes 1727 119, 106
Newbury, Samuel Grovewell, Livenhayes, Moorpit 1662, 1727 02,
106,109
Newbery, Susanna Livenhayes 1727 106
Newbery, Thomas Shutlands 18th C 13, 63
As best I can determine, Samuel Newbury [sic] was associated with
Livenhayes in the parish of Yarcombe, Devon in 1662 or 1727 (both
dates are given).
But in 1600 other people are associated with this place:
Browinge, Maude Livenhayes 1600 106
Helliar, Alice Livenhayes 1600 106
Pullen, John Livenhayes 1600 106
I believe Livenhayes (or Livehayne) in Yarcombe, Devon was a farm not
a manor.
Douglas Richardson
Nov 3, 2011, 12:09:54 PM11/3/11
to
Dear Tim and others ~
In my earlier post regarding the fraudulent pedigree of the immigrant,
Mr. Thomas Newberry, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, I noted that Mr.
Bartlett, author of the Newberry Genealogy, had identified Richard
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon [the known father of the immigrant] as a
younger son of Richard Newborough, Gentleman, of Othe Francis (in
Netherbury), Dorset (died c.1570), by his wife, Elizabeth Horsey.
However, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon [father of the
immigrant] is clearly named as a son in the 1596 will of William
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon. William Newberry's will is dated 20 May
1596, and proved 6 Dec. 1596 (P.C.C. 90 Drake). In the will, William
Newberry names (among other legatees) his wife, Ellyne [Ellen]; the
this William Newberry's son, Richard Newberry, "born in 1564, is of
record at Membury in 1591, 1596, and 1600, and later removed to Shute,
co. Devon, where he died in August 1616, leaving no issue. His will
dated 3 Aug. 1618, proved 8 Oct. 1619, directs that he be buried
beside his mother in Membury. (Dean and Chapter of Exeter)." END OF
QUOTE.
Who are we to believe? Mr. Bartlett claims that Richard Newberry, son
of William Newberry, of Yarcombe, went to Membury and Shute, Devon,
and died without issue, and thus can not possibly be Richard Newberry,
of Yarcombe, Devon, the immigrant's father, who resided at Yarcombe
all his adult life. Mr. Bartlett maintained this fiction in spite of
the fact that William Newberry's will clearly indicates that his son,
Richard Newberry, had living issue in 1596, where as Richard Newberry,
of Membury and Shute, is alleged to have died without issue.
Mr. Bartlett further claimed that William Newberry's son, Richard,
allegedly of Membury and Shute, was not a child of his surviving wife,
Ellen, but rather by a previous marriage. We know that because he
says William Newberry married his wife, Ellen, "late in life." He
offers no evidence to support this conclusion other than noting that
the mother of Richard Newberry of Membury and Shute was buried in
Membury, Devon, whereas Ellen, widow of William Newberry, was buried
at Yarcombe, Devon in 1609.
That Ellen Newberry, was in fact the full mother (not step-mother) of
William Newberry's son and heir, Richard Newberry, is proven by the
PCC administration record of her estate. This record shows that
administration on her estate was granted 4 September 1609 to her four
sons ("filij"), Tristam Smith, William Smith, John Smith, and Richard
Newberry [see P.C.C. Adm. Act Book, 1605-1614, pg. 172 (FHL Microfilm
#093248].
Interestingly, Mr. Bartlett was confronted by these very facts by
Arthur Trego Butler in 1925, but was never acknowledged by Mr.
Bartlett. Instead Mr. Bartlett clung to his view that Richard
Newberry of Membury and Shute was the son of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon, by a different wife than Ellen. He also defended his
belief that Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe [the immigrant's father] was
originally from a gentry family in Dorset named Newburgh (or
Newborough).
In a related vein, I had the opportunity this week to speak with
Clifford L. Stott, F.A.S.G., who is a Newberry descendant and who is a
professional genealogist here in Salt Lake City. He is the author of
many fine articles in all the major genealogical journals. I've known
Cliff for many years and know him to be a man of character and
integrity. He is also an excellent researcher.
Mr. Stott told me that he had done original research on the English
origins of the Newberry family and that he possesses a copy of the
correspondence between Butler and Bartlett now on file at the NEHGS
Library in Boston.
Mr. Stott said that the alleged royal ancestry of the immigrant,
Thomas Newberry, appears in some secondary works as "questionable."
However, he said "it is just plain wrong." Once he determined that
Mr. Bartlett's findings were incorrect, he proceeded to research the
Newberry family like he would any other. He checked parish registers
and pulled up wills, etc. He came to the same conclusion that I did
that the immigrant's father, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon was
the son of William Newberry (died 1596), of Yarcombe, Devon, by his
wife, Ellen.
Mr. Stott further informed me that another piece of Mr. Bartlett's
work is currently under investigation for fraud. C'est la vie.
In summary, there now appears to have been three men living in the
same time period:
(1) Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, died 1639 [the immigrant's
father] who can be shown to have been the son of William Newberry
(died 1596), of Yarcombe, Devon, and his wife, Ellen (died 1609).
This Richard Newberry had five children (or less) living in 1632.
This Richard Newberry was never styled gentleman.
(2) Richard Newberry, of Membury and Shute, Devon, died 1618, who
presumably came from Membury, Devon. He left no issue.
(3) Richard Newborough, Gentleman, living 1592-3, at Bradpole, Dorset
and 1594 at Devon. He was a younger son of Richard Newborough, Gent.,
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
P.S. I might add that Mr. Stott told me that he has also researched
the family of Grace Matthew, mother of the immigrant, Thomas
Newberry. He found no evidence to support Mr. Bartlett's wild
allegations that she was also a descendant of the gentry Newburgh
family of Dorset.
In my earlier post regarding the fraudulent pedigree of the immigrant,
Mr. Thomas Newberry, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, I noted that Mr.
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon [the known father of the immigrant] as a
younger son of Richard Newborough, Gentleman, of Othe Francis (in
Netherbury), Dorset (died c.1570), by his wife, Elizabeth Horsey.
However, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon [father of the
immigrant] is clearly named as a son in the 1596 will of William
Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon. William Newberry's will is dated 20 May
1596, and proved 6 Dec. 1596 (P.C.C. 90 Drake). In the will, William
Newberry names (among other legatees) his wife, Ellyne [Ellen]; the
minor children of Richard Newberry; and he leaves the residue of his
estate to his son, Richard Newberry, whom he names his executor.
In the Newberry Genealogy, pg. 31, however, Mr. Bartlett claims that
estate to his son, Richard Newberry, whom he names his executor.
this William Newberry's son, Richard Newberry, "born in 1564, is of
record at Membury in 1591, 1596, and 1600, and later removed to Shute,
co. Devon, where he died in August 1616, leaving no issue. His will
dated 3 Aug. 1618, proved 8 Oct. 1619, directs that he be buried
beside his mother in Membury. (Dean and Chapter of Exeter)." END OF
QUOTE.
Who are we to believe? Mr. Bartlett claims that Richard Newberry, son
of William Newberry, of Yarcombe, went to Membury and Shute, Devon,
and died without issue, and thus can not possibly be Richard Newberry,
of Yarcombe, Devon, the immigrant's father, who resided at Yarcombe
all his adult life. Mr. Bartlett maintained this fiction in spite of
the fact that William Newberry's will clearly indicates that his son,
Richard Newberry, had living issue in 1596, where as Richard Newberry,
of Membury and Shute, is alleged to have died without issue.
Mr. Bartlett further claimed that William Newberry's son, Richard,
allegedly of Membury and Shute, was not a child of his surviving wife,
Ellen, but rather by a previous marriage. We know that because he
says William Newberry married his wife, Ellen, "late in life." He
offers no evidence to support this conclusion other than noting that
the mother of Richard Newberry of Membury and Shute was buried in
Membury, Devon, whereas Ellen, widow of William Newberry, was buried
at Yarcombe, Devon in 1609.
That Ellen Newberry, was in fact the full mother (not step-mother) of
William Newberry's son and heir, Richard Newberry, is proven by the
PCC administration record of her estate. This record shows that
administration on her estate was granted 4 September 1609 to her four
sons ("filij"), Tristam Smith, William Smith, John Smith, and Richard
Newberry [see P.C.C. Adm. Act Book, 1605-1614, pg. 172 (FHL Microfilm
#093248].
Interestingly, Mr. Bartlett was confronted by these very facts by
Arthur Trego Butler in 1925, but was never acknowledged by Mr.
Bartlett. Instead Mr. Bartlett clung to his view that Richard
Newberry of Membury and Shute was the son of William Newberry, of
Yarcombe, Devon, by a different wife than Ellen. He also defended his
belief that Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe [the immigrant's father] was
originally from a gentry family in Dorset named Newburgh (or
Newborough).
In a related vein, I had the opportunity this week to speak with
Clifford L. Stott, F.A.S.G., who is a Newberry descendant and who is a
professional genealogist here in Salt Lake City. He is the author of
many fine articles in all the major genealogical journals. I've known
Cliff for many years and know him to be a man of character and
integrity. He is also an excellent researcher.
Mr. Stott told me that he had done original research on the English
origins of the Newberry family and that he possesses a copy of the
correspondence between Butler and Bartlett now on file at the NEHGS
Library in Boston.
Mr. Stott said that the alleged royal ancestry of the immigrant,
Thomas Newberry, appears in some secondary works as "questionable."
However, he said "it is just plain wrong." Once he determined that
Mr. Bartlett's findings were incorrect, he proceeded to research the
Newberry family like he would any other. He checked parish registers
and pulled up wills, etc. He came to the same conclusion that I did
that the immigrant's father, Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon was
the son of William Newberry (died 1596), of Yarcombe, Devon, by his
wife, Ellen.
Mr. Stott further informed me that another piece of Mr. Bartlett's
work is currently under investigation for fraud. C'est la vie.
In summary, there now appears to have been three men living in the
same time period:
(1) Richard Newberry, of Yarcombe, Devon, died 1639 [the immigrant's
father] who can be shown to have been the son of William Newberry
(died 1596), of Yarcombe, Devon, and his wife, Ellen (died 1609).
This Richard Newberry had five children (or less) living in 1632.
This Richard Newberry was never styled gentleman.
(2) Richard Newberry, of Membury and Shute, Devon, died 1618, who
presumably came from Membury, Devon. He left no issue.
(3) Richard Newborough, Gentleman, living 1592-3, at Bradpole, Dorset
and 1594 at Devon. He was a younger son of Richard Newborough, Gent.,
of Othe Francis (in Netherbury), Dorset (died c.1570), by his wife,
Elizabeth Horsey. This man had seven children living in 1632.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
the family of Grace Matthew, mother of the immigrant, Thomas
Newberry. He found no evidence to support Mr. Bartlett's wild
allegations that she was also a descendant of the gentry Newburgh
family of Dorset.
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