Taylor family (Part I)
KHF...@aol.com
Comments are welcome on this, as I have wondered about this genealogy for
some time. Below is an article sent to me by one James Trigg with a few
comments of my own. This is the attempt to extend the confused Lincoln
genealogy to the Taylor and the Lees of Virgina as outlined in Mary Taylor
Brewer's book. I have never perosnally vouched for the accuracy of these
lines but am curious as to where the errors might be.
_____________
The primary source for this information is the book From Log Cabins to the
White House: a History of the Taylor Family, by Mary Taylor Brewer. This book
was privately published and not well-circulated. As Mrs. Brewer died soon
after completing the book, and was never able to effectively circulate the
information, much of the content is unknown and unverified by professional
genealogists researching the Hanks and Lincoln lines. The information
contained herein was provided by James Trigg, 3622 Robin Rd., Nashville, TN.
37204-3825, a descendant of immigrant John Taylor. Mr. Trigg has a copy of
one of the seven hundred original copies of Mary Taylor Brewer’s book.
Abraham Lincoln, 16th U.S. President, b 12 Feb 1809, Mill Creek, Hardin
Co KY., d 15 Apr 1865, Washington D.C., m 4 Nov 1842 , Mary Todd, d/o Robert
Todd of Lexington, KY.
Children of Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln:
1. Robert Lincoln, b 1843.
2. Edward Lincoln, b 1850, d young.
3. Wallace Lincoln b 1850
Abraham Lincoln’s brother’s and sisters were all born at Mill Creek,
Hardin Co., KY:
Sibling 1. Sarah Lincoln, a 10 Feb 1807, d 1828, m Aaron Grigsby of
Spencer County, IN. in 1826, two years before her early death.
Sibling 2. Thomas Lincoln, b 1811, d infant.
Abraham, Thomas and Sarah were children of:
1st Generation:
Thomas Lincoln = Nancy Hanks
Nancy Hanks, b 25 Mar 1780, d 5 Oct 1818 , m 12 Jun 1806 to Thomas
Lincoln. Nancy lived with her grandmother, “Nannie”, until she went back to
Virginia to live with her “aunt “ [quite possibly her real mother] Lucy
Hanks Sparrow, m 1790 to Henry Sparrow. She lived with Lucy until 1795 when
her aunt Elizabeth married Henry’s brother, Thomas Sparrow, then she lived
with Elizabeth and Thomas until she was married to Thomas Lincoln in 1806. [1
The Lincoln Family, History of Lee County, Virginia, Anne Wyche.]
Thomas Lincoln, b 5 Jan 1778, d 17 Jan 1851 near Janesville, at Coles
Spring, IL., married 12 Jun 1806 to Nancy Hanks, d 5 Oct 1818. Thomas m2,
Sarah Bush Johnson, b 13 Dec 1788, d 10 Dec 1869 near Janesville. IL. Sarah
was the widow of Daniel Johnson. Sarah and Thomas had no children of their
own, but Sarah raised Nancy Hanks children and was a major influence in their
lives.
Thomas Lincoln’s brothers and sisters were:
Sibling 1. Mordecai Lincoln, b 1771 d 1830, m Mary Mudd. The couple spent
many years in Hardin Co., KY, then moved to Hancock, IL. around 1827.
Sibling 2. Josiah Lincoln, b 1772. d Sep 1835, m Catherine Barlow. The
diary of Dr. William Smith, a neighbor who lived two miles from the Lincoln
family on Mill Creek says: “Josiah was more slender and not as clever as
Thomas. He lived most of his life in Hardin County with Squire Boone.” [2
The Smith diary, as quoted in “The Lincoln Book,” by Harry Magers].
Sibling 3. Mary Lincoln, b 1775, m 5 Aug 1801 to Ralph Crume, s/o
Phillip and Anne Crume of Nelson Co., KY. Mary was buried on the old family
cemetery on Mill Creek, Hardin CO., KY.
Sibling 4: Nancy Lincoln, b 25 Mar 1780, d 9 Oct 1815, m 12 Jan 1801 to
William Brumfield, b Mill Creek Cemetery, Hardin Co. KY. Diary of Dr.
William Smith: “I saw Nancy Lincoln very often and have been to her house. I
call her the star of the Lincolns. She was a woman of more than average mind
and sense. She was liked by her neighbors, went about a great deal, and was
about unafraid as a man. [These were the times of the Indian Wars, the
American Revolution, and the War of 1812.] None of the Lincolns were afraid,
that I’m aware of. Nancy lived here I suppose, most of her life and she had a
pretty good man in Bill Brumfield. They were helping neighbors with a lot of
good fun in them.”
2nd Generation: Maternal
Joseph Hanks, Jr. = Nancy Shipley or Lucy Hanks and _________, a young
plantation owner near Alexandria, VA.
Joseph Hanks, Jr., b 1764 is generally regarded the father of Nancy
Hanks. In his will, recorded at Nelson County, KY., he left his daughter
Nancy Hanks “a cow named Piedy.”
Lucy Hanks, b circa 1770, possibly had an illegitimate child in 1783 with
an Alexandria, VA. planter, m 1790 to Henry Sparrow. Pregnant Lucy was
whisked away by the family, who moved to the wilderness areas in Mineral
County, Virginia.
Joseph Hanks, Jr. and Lucy Hanks brothers and sisters were:
Sibling 1. Nancy Hanks, m Levi Hall.
Sibling 2. Polly Hanks.
Sibling 3. Charles Hanks.
Sibling 4. Thomas Hanks, b 1759, m 31 Mar 1791 to Nancy Hammock.
Sibling 5. Joshua Hanks.
Sibling 6. William Hanks.
Sibling 7. Elizabeth Hanks, b 1775 , m 1795 to Thomas Sparrow.
Joseph Jr., Lucy Hanks and siblings were children of:
3rd Generation: Maternal
Joseph Hanks, Sr. = Nancy Anna Lee
Joseph Hanks, Sr., b 21 Dec 1725, North Farnham Parish, Richmond Co.,
VA., d 1793, son of John and Catherine Hanks, m 1750 to Nancy Anna Lee.
Joseph’s father, John, was a cousin to Thomas Hanks, who married Nancy’s
sister, Elizabeth (Betty) Lee. Joseph lived in Mineral Springs, WV. He moved
to Nelson County, KY., where he died in 1793. His will is listed in Nelson
County, naming his wife “Nannie” (Nancy) and the children listed above.
Nancy Anna Lee, b circa 1728, m 1750 to Joseph Hanks, Sr. After Joseph
died, Nancy and son Joseph, Jr., sold the Nelson County Kentucky property to
her other son, William Hanks, entering into a contract for sale 10 Jan 1794.
From there, they went to Rockingham County, Virginia, where Nancy’s family
lived. Nancy died there, and Joseph Jr. returned to Nelson County, KY where
he later recorded his will and died. Nancy “Nannie” Hanks was living near
Brock Gap in Rockingham Co., VA. on 8 Oct 1808, when she was baptized by
Baptist church officials who were holding a meeting near her home. She would
have then been 80-years-old. Nancy Anna Lee was the daughter of:
4th Generation: Maternal
William Lee 3. = _________
William Lee 3, b 14 May 1704, d 1764. Children:
1. Elizabeth (Betty) Lee, b 1723/24. m Thomas Hanks, b 26 Jul 1728, s/o
William and Hester Mills Hanks.
2. Nancy Anna Lee, b circa 1728, m Joseph Hanks, Sr.
3. Richard Lee.
5th Generation: Maternal
William Lee 2 = Dorothy Taylor
William Lee 2, b 1682, d 1717, s/o William Lee 1 of Westmoreland and King
and Queen Counties, VA., m 1703 to Dorothy Taylor. His wife, Dorothy, and
her brother, Thomas Taylor, were administrators of his estate. She left her
grandchildren the inheritance left to William 2 by his mother, Elizabeth
Harwood Taylor. Thomas Hanks received 9 lbs., 11 shillings, and 8 pence.
Joseph Hanks received 2 lbs., 2 shillings, and 6 pence. Richard Lee received
4 shillings. Nothing is listed for John Lee, who probably died young.
Dorothy Taylor, b 1681, m 1703 to William Lee 2. Dorothy m2 circa 1720 to
Richard Croucher. On 13 Apr 1745, she was witness to the will of Henry
Williams, in Richmond Co. VA., signed as Dorothy Croucher. Children with
William Lee 2:
1. William Lee 3, b 14 May 1704
2. Charles Lee b 18 Sep 1706
3. Richard Lee, b 9 Apr 1711
4. John Lee, b 11 Oct 1713, d young.
6th Generation: Maternal
Thomas Taylor 2 = Elizabeth Harwood
Thomas Taylor 2, b 1657, d 1712, was m in 1680 to Elizabeth Harwood, d/o
William Harwood, who gave them a a deed of land. Thomas’ will of 29 Mar 1712,
was probated, 4 Jun 1712 (Farnham Parish, Richmond Co., VA., Records p. 80).
The will stipulated that his sons Thomas, Benjamin and John were to be set at
liberty at age sixteen, Thomas (the eldest) was to have 50 acres of land
binding on Lawrence Taliaferro, Benjamin was to have 50 acres binding on John
Jones, and the youngest son, John, to have 50 acres between his brothers.
There was no executor, and the witnesses were John Shaples and Thomas Sisson.
An inventory of his estate was made 17 May 1713.
Children of Thomas Taylor 2 and Elizabeth Harwood:
1. Dorothy Taylor, m William Lee 2.
2. Sarah Taylor Ellate, b c 1688.
3. Thomas Taylor 3, b 1690, m Ann Jones. Thomas made his will in 1712.
His mother, Elizabeth Harwood, outlived him by many years. She made her will
on 11 May 1747, (WB 5, p 331, Richmond Co., VA.) Her daughters, Sarah Ellate
and Dorothy Croucher, received her clothing, to be divided between them, and
Dorothy was to “have her Coyas.” Her grandson, William Lee, was named as
executor. Mentioned in the will were great-granddaughter, Betty Lee (d/o
grandson, William Lee 2), Anna Lee (d/o grandson, William Lee 2), and Richard
Lee (s/o grandson William Lee 2).
4. Benjamin Taylor, b circa 1702 m Eleanor _______. Benjamin left a will
dated 11 Feb 1775 in St. Marks Parish, Culpepper Co., VA. “My land, prayer
book, and tools to be given to son Thomas, to daughters Elizabeth Miles and
Mary Butler, negroes and their increase, to godson Charles James Jones
Taylor, 40 shillings for schooling. The rest of my estate to son-in-law
Charles Miles, son-in-law James Butler, and wife Eleanor.” [Virginia
Magazine of History, Vol. Six; Taylor Bulletins, 1973.]
5. John Taylor, b 1710.
7th Generation: Maternal
Thomas Taylor 1 = Mary ________
Thomas Taylor 1, b 1637 in England, was the son of immigrants John and
Elizabeth Taylor. He came to America in 1650 by Headright, sponsored by
Richard Tye and Charles Sparrow of Charles City, VA. His wife, Mary, d 1687.
On 20 Mar 1662, Thomas patented 281 acres of land which he bought from
Matthew Edlow, located on the north side of the James River. The land itself
was called “Harrahatocke, over against King’s Island, bounded by the river,
a little below the orchard adjacent to land of Arthur Bayley.” Thomas
claimed land by Headright for the transport for his daughter, Dorothy Taylor,
John Bell, John Young, and others under the Headright System, 23 Sep 1667.
On 2 May 1666, Thomas bought land in Surrey Co., VA. He paid tithe there in
1672 and made statements that he was 35 years of age. His will was recorded
in Rappahanock Co., VA., 22 Jan 1686, and was probated 2 Mar 1687.
Children of Thomas Taylor 1 and Mary ____:
1. Thomas Taylor 2, b 1657.
2. Richard Taylor, b 1658, mentioned in Southwark Parish Surrey Co., with
wife, Sarah. His will, of 6 May 1705, names his wife, Sarah, and children:
Richard, John, and Thomas. Thomas mentions that he received land from his
grandfather Thomas Taylor. (A.E. Casey, Some Southern Virginia Families, p
175.)
3. Elizabeth Taylor, b 1660, m 1678 John Tavener, Sr.
4. Dorothy Taylor, b 1662, d 1688.
There were probably other children as well.
8th Generation: Maternal
John Taylor = Elizabeth _____
John Taylor, b 10 Aug 1607, in England, d Jan 1652, m Elizabeth. Records
in both Northumberland and Lancaster Counties, VA., show that he came to
America around 1648, as he is listed in Greer’s Immigration List, 1648. That
year, John Taylor, James Jones, and John Ellis patented 500 acres of land. On
28 Apr 1651 he patented 950 acres and 1400 acres.
Children of immigrant John Taylor and wife Elizabeth:
1. Richard Taylor, b 1625, England.
2. John Taylor 2, b 1627, England.
3. Robert Taylor, b 1630, England.
4. William Taylor, b 1632-4 or 1638, England.
5. James Taylor 1, b 1635, m Frances Walker. His granddaughter, Frances
Taylor, m Ambrose Madison, and was the grandmother of James Madison U.S.
President. Also, his grandson, Zachary Taylor, b 1707, was the grandfather of
Zachary Taylor, b 1784, U.S. President.
6. Thomas Taylor 1, b 1637, England.
7. Elizabeth Taylor, b 1645, came to America in 1648
with her parents, m Simon Sallard.
8. Richard Taylor, b 1650, Northumberland Co.,VA. [3 The custom of
giving two sons the same Christian name was common in both England and
Virginia at this time, especially if the older son married or moved away.
(John T. Hassom. The Hilton Family, p 105.) THIS SENDS SENDS ALARM BELLS
RINGING - KHF]
9th Generation: Maternal
Thomas Taylor =
Margaret Swinderly
Thomas Taylor, b 15 Mar 1574, d 1618, m 9 Oct 1599 to Margaret Swinderly,
b circa 1578, d/o Andrew Swinderly (who left Copenhagen, Denmark soon after
the birth of his daughter to settle in England.
The children of Thomas Taylor 2 and Margaret Swinderly: 4
1. Robert Taylor, b 7 Nov 1601, d 1699, m 1 Jun 1627 to Patience
Margaret Palmer.
2. Margaret Taylor, b 10 Sep 1603, England.
3. William Taylor, b 8 Jul 1605, a soldier in Cromwell’s army.
4. John Taylor, b 10 Aug 1607, immigrated to America.
5. James Taylor, b 12 Feb 1610, d 1655, immigrated to America in 1635, m
Elizabeth Underwood, who later divorced him (the first divorce registered in
Virginia).
10th Generation: Maternal
Thomas Taylor = Elizabeth Burwell
Thomas Taylor, b 15 Sep 1548, m Elizabeth Burwell, b circa 1552 at
Hadleigh. Hadleigh, of County Suffolk, England, is an old town dating back to
the days of Guthrum and Alfred the Great.
Elizabeth Burwell died two years after her marriage, leaving son, Thomas.
Her husband, Thomas Sr., then remarried an unknown woman with whom he had two
more sons, Edmund and Nathaniel. They lived in Cambridge, England.
11th Generation: Maternal
Dr. Rowland Taylor
= Margaret Tyndale
Dr. Rowland Taylor, [4 William James Brown, The Life of Rowland Taylor,
Epworth Press, England. The Book of Martyrs, Fox, published in England
1610, Vol.1.] m 1525 Margaret Tyndale.
Dr. Rowland Taylor was educated at Cambridge, receiving an L.L.D. in
1530. In 1542 Dr. Taylor was appointed Rector of Hadleigh in the Deanery of
Bocking. On 3 May 1552 he was appointed Archdeacon of Cornwall for life. Dr.
Taylor was caught up in religious arguments and persecution resulting from
his objection to the Catholic Mass in his church. He was tried, convicted,
and sentenced to death. During Dr. Taylor’s trial he said he had nine ch
ildren, five of whom were deceased. Among those mentioned were:
1. Susan Taylor
2. George Taylor
3. Ellen Taylor
4. Robert Taylor
5. Zachary Taylor
6. Thomas Taylor, b 15 Sep 1548, was six years old when his father was
executed, 5 Feb 1555.
An inscription in All Saints Chapel, York Minister, names Anne Taylor as
d/o Rowland Taylor, accounting for seven of the nine children. Anne married
William Palmer, Rector of Kirk Deighton, and had seven children. After Dr.
Taylor’s death, widow Margaret remarried Rev. Charles Wright of Yorkshire.,
B.A. 1553/4 from St. Johns College. He became Vicar of Chesterton near
Cambridge in 1557.
The written history of Dr. Taylor was recorded by William James Brown in
The Life of Dr. Rowland Taylor, Epworth Press, England, 1610. A copy exists
in the present Rector of Hadleigh. The book points out that according to
family legend and many other sources, the original Taylor name came from the
time of William the Conqueror. The Taylors were descendants of Baron William
Taliaferro who accompanied William I to England and died in the Battle of
Hasting. The Taliaferro name changed over the years to Tallifer, then to
Tailor, and finally to Taylor.
Sutliff
to this forum.
Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd were the parents of four sons, not three:
Robert Todd, Edward Baker, William Wallace and Thomas (Tad). That Tad
was omitted from this re-cap and the date for Edward (10 March 1846-1
Feb 1850) wrong initially suggests that this should be closely
scrutinized for other errors.
Henry Sutliff
Douglas Beahm
unsubstantiated material (no baptismal records, no wills, etc.) supplied by Ms.
Brewer in her book "From Log Cabins to the White House - A History of the Taylor
Family." For example, Ms. Brewer states that John Taylor arrived circa 1648 per
Greer's "Immigration List." If one looks at the patents for that year, there was a
headright named John Taylor, however, he was not travelling with either a wife or
daughter as stated by Ms. Brewer. Ms. Brewer shows the six oldest sons of John and
Elizabeth Taylor as born in England and then travelling as headrights on separate
patents in 1650, with ages ranging from 13 to 25. Based on my experience, this
would have been extremely unusual for the time. In addition, I am only aware of one
document that links any two of these six individuals, and that did not occur until
1690.
The evidence presented by Ms. Brewer does suggest that the youngest children,
Elizabeth and Richard, were in fact brother and sister. It is possible that John was
also a son, although I do not find the evidence compelling.
There were numerous Taylor families living in 17th century Virginia as shown by both
patents and court records. Ms. Brewer appears to have "plucked" several of them out
of the group based simply upon geography and chronology and stated that they were
related. Since Taylor was an extremely common surname in both England and the
colonies at the time, one should assume that the various Taylor individuals/families
were not closely related until proven otherwise by primary sources, or perhaps a DNA
study.
Nathaniel Taylor
>Comments are welcome on this, as I have wondered about this genealogy for
>some time. Below is an article sent to me by one James Trigg with a few
>comments of my own. This is the attempt to extend the confused Lincoln
>genealogy to the Taylor and the Lees of Virgina as outlined in Mary Taylor
>Brewer's book. I have never perosnally vouched for the accuracy of these
>lines but am curious as to where the errors might be.
>_____________
>The primary source for this information is the book From Log Cabins to the
>White House: a History of the Taylor Family, by Mary Taylor Brewer.
<snip multitudinous text>
[My apologies because this is essentially a problem in U.S. genealogy of
the 17th century and later. However, some of the posted line involves
the alleged pre-modern English ancestry of an early-modern colonial
immigrant, so it *almost* fits the NG's charter.]
OK, Ken, thank you for posting, though I'm disappointed it does not come
anywhere near living up to what you claimed to post--let's not even go
into that. Since you have 'wondered about this genealogy for some
time', let's walk through it together. Forgive me for starting at a
very elementary level, but I hope the points I raise may present a
useful lesson. Let me start with two basic comments:
1. Form of the text.
This is not, in fact, a faithful reproduction of Brewer's data (as if
someone typed Brewer word for word). You describe it as 'an article ...
by James Trigg'. The earlier generations, at least, are chunks of text
drawn verbatim from Brewer, but rearranged in a present-to-past format,
while Brewer had used more of a Register ordering (if not style). So
the text is neither flesh nor fowl. That does not mean some information
in it may not be correct, but should raise suspicions from the outset.
One can also see a significant thing from the text: virtually none of
the individual pieces of information in this text is accompanied by a
source citation. This is simply unacceptable. Of the (VERY FEW)
documents or books that are cited as sources for all this, ALMOST NONE
is cited correctly (that is, they almost all have *incorrect
information* [e.g. Foxe & Brown], or *incomplete information* (most of
the wills, etc.). Ken has already shown his fundamental incomprehension
and disregard for correct source citations, but any careful genealogist
will recognize a serious problem with this data.
BTW I have only a partial photocopy of Brewer. This post is drawn from
pp. 30-31 (Rowland Taylor to John Taylor, alleged descendant); 42-46
(alleged family of immigrant John Taylor); and 418-438 (family of Thomas
Taylor and alleged descent of Lincoln). Unfortunately I do not have pp.
418-438 so have to rely on the Trigg version rather than Brewer, which
is unsatisfactory, given the way in which I see Trigg rearranged 30-31
and 42-46. I expect, as with other chapters, there are some notes at
the end of this chapter (p. 438) which may help with analysis of
Brewer's work. [If anyone reading this has Brewer's book, I would be
happy to pay photocopying, shipping & labor for those 20 pp.: please
contact me off-list.]
And we have not even addressed the content yet.
II. Secondary research on a presidential ancestry.
So, laying our distaste at the poor form of the data aside for the
moment, how do we go about confirming or impugning it?
There is an obvious first step. Here we are presented with the
purported ancestry of a U.S. President. This is well-trodden soil. The
first thing to do is seek corroboration in the well-known, reasonably
authoritative recent orientation guide, _Ancestors of American
Presidents_ by Gary Boyd Roberts. Unfortunately I do not possess either
edition of this volume. Could someone who has it (preferably the 1995
ed.) please post a precis of what it contains, including the sources
cited as authorities, for this portion of the Lincoln AT? In short,
what does Roberts' book show about the Lee and Taylor ancestry of Joseph
Hanks, Jr., *possible* grandfather of Lincoln? For that matter, what,
indeed, does it say about the parentage of Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln?
For convenience I give here the version of the ancestry of Lincoln
presented in Ken's post (purporting to derive from Mary Taylor Brewer,
_From Log Cabins to the White House_ [Wooton, KY, 1985], pp. 42-46,
418-438):
1. Abraham Lincoln (U.S. President)
2. Thomas Lincoln
3. Nancy Hanks
6. Joseph Hanks, Jr.
7. Nancy Shipley
12. Joseph Hanks, Sr.
13. Nancy Anna Lee
26. William Lee III
27. ___ ___
52. William Lee II
53. Dorothy Taylor
106. Thomas Taylor II
107. Elizabeth Harwood
212. Thomas Taylor
213. Mary ___
424. John Taylor (alleged immigrant ancestor, with alleged pre-modern
ancestry)
425. Elizabeth ___
So: if some kind soul could please post what _Ancestors of American
Presidents_ has to say on this, we can move forward with other obvious
flaws in the early generations.
I will post more, time permitting, over the next couple days.
Nat Taylor
D. Spencer Hines
Roberts has:
William Lee, born circa 1704, Richmond County, Virginia, died circa
1764.
There is no #52 in his Ahnenreihe.
Roberts doesn't have a clear choice for #6, Nancy Hank's father. He
cites several possibilities — none of whom is "Joseph" Hanks.
So, the squib Ahnenreihe, infra, doesn't match at all.
Sources later.
You do some more work, Nat, and I *may* respond further.
But, I'm not your research assistant.
Keep Paul H. Verduin in mind.
Deus Vult.
"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study
mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and
philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation,
commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to
study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and
porcelain." John Adams, (1735-1826) Second President of the United
States. Letter to Abigail Adams, his wife, 12 May 1780.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nta...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:ntaylor-A69ED8...@nnrp01.earthlink.net...
Todd A. Farmerie
> The primary source for this information is the book From Log Cabins to the
> White House: a History of the Taylor Family, by Mary Taylor Brewer. This book
> was privately published and not well-circulated.
I have to say, I cringed on seeing this - a primary source for
16th century information is a book written in the 20th century?
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>Roberts stops the Lee line with #26.
<snip more>
Thank you, Mr. Hines, for posting this information. I have been sent a
fuller transcription of the Lincoln section of Roberts off-list.
>But, I'm not your research assistant.
I would not want you to be. Neither am I Mr. Finton's research
assistant.
I will post more on this flawed line this evening or tomorrow.
Nat Taylor
U...@aol.com
writes:
> Comments are welcome on this, as I have wondered about this genealogy for
> some time. Below is an article sent to me by one James Trigg with a few
> comments of my own. This is the attempt to extend the confused Lincoln
> genealogy to the Taylor and the Lees of Virgina as outlined in Mary Taylor
> Brewer's book. I have never perosnally vouched for the accuracy of these
> lines but am curious as to where the errors might be.
>
I note that Gary Boyd Roberts in his book "Ancestors of American Presidents"
1995 does not name the parents of James Taylor married to Frances, nor does
he give Frances a surname.
Always optimistic--Dave
Douglas Beahm
daughter of Col. John Walker. Col. Walker did have a daughter Frances (per his
will), however, when this will, several deeds, and the James Taylor family Bible
are reviewed together, it appears extremely unlikely that Frances Walker was the
wife of this James Taylor. The existing record also suggests that James Taylor
was born circa 1640-1648 rather than 1635 as shown by Ms. Brewer.
D. Spencer Hines
This alleged linkage between Abraham Lincoln, the 16th POTUS and Zachary
Taylor, the 12th POTUS, appears to be bogus ---- based just on a
tentative, preliminary analysis.
Time will tell.
Much more interesting is Abraham Lincoln's linkage to our current POTUS,
George Walker Bush.
Gary Boyd Roberts details that relationship in his book, op. cit.
President Bush is also allegedly related to 14 other POTUS's, for a
total of 15:
Washington, Fillmore, Pierce, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Cleveland,
Theodore Roosevelt, Taft, Coolidge, Hoover, Franklin Delano Roosevelt,
Nixon and Ford.
Only FDR has more links to other POTUS's ---- 16.
Washington, John Quincy Adams, Van Buren, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce,
Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Cleveland, Theodore Roosevelt, Taft, Coolidge,
Nixon, Ford, Bush.
Of course, these numbers may well change when the Rottweiler rouses from
his dogmatic slumbers, gets off his duff, and publishes his book on Bush
43 and his family.
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 4/20/02 1:11:39 AM, farm...@interfold.com writes:
<<
I have to say, I cringed on seeing this - a primary source for
16th century information is a book written in the 20th century? >>
I quite obviouisly meant the primary source for the article. Your capacity
to cringe seems quite neurotic if all it takes is a little misreading of a
sentence.
Todd A. Farmerie
Just as a followup, I see now that Ken was using "primary" in a
different context than I. He appears to have been using it
solely to indicate that this was his "main" source, not that this
was considered a "primary" source in the technical-scholarly sense.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> sentence.
In general, it is a good idea, when discussing a
historical/genealogical question, to avoid using technical terms
with specifically defined meaning in other contexts, where your
meaning is entirely different. When such a defined usage exists,
no deviation from this usage is "quite obvious", particularly in
light of the fact that many folks do exactly what you appeared to
be describing, much to the discomfort of those who do careful
research.
As to my cringe threashhold, the thought that someone might be
using a 20th century book as a "primary source" (in the technical
sense) for 16th century information should suffice to make any
careful researcher cringe (and if I knew at the time I was
misreading it . . . )
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
Part 2. Specific comments on this alleged Taylor-Lincoln line.
In this, I shall look at specific problems with the line as given by
Brewer (or, at least, as given by Finton or his informant Mr. Trigg).
For convenience's sake, I here give the proposed line in outline form:
1. Rowland Taylor = Margaret Tyndale
2. Thomas Taylor = Elizabeth Burwell
3. Thomas Taylor = Margaret Swinderby
4. John Taylor ('immigrant to Lancaster Co., VA) = Elizabeth ___
5. Thomas Taylor = Mary ___
6. Thomas Taylor = Elizabeth Harwood
7. Dorothy Taylor = William Lee
8. William Lee = ___ ___
9. Nancy Anna Lee = Joseph Hanks, Sr.
10. Joseph Hanks, Jr. = Nancy Shipley
11. Nancy Hanks = Thomas Lincoln
12. Abraham Lincoln (U.S. President)
I will work backwards:
Gens. 10-12. Brewer presents no evidence for the parentage of Nancy
Hanks (11); her statement that 10 is 'generally regarded the father of
Nancy Hanks' is certainly contradicted by Roberts (1995), which surveys
several candidates, only some of which are siblings which would connect
gen. 11 to gen. 9 (Joseph Hanks & Anna Lee). So right away, there is
difficulty in placing the mother of Lincoln in a specific Hanks family.
Gens. 9-7. Roberts makes this Anna Lee a daughter of William Lee of
Richmond Co., VA, c. 1704-1764. But Roberts does not give him a
parentage: i.e., Roberts does not place this William Lee as the grandson
named in the 1747 will of Elizabeth (___) Taylor and therefore probably
son of William and Dorothy (Taylor) Lee. This is interesting, because
he cites an enormous amount of published work on the Hanks family,
including most recently a 'Hanks monograph' by Paul H. Verduin,
_Northern Neck of Virginia Historical Magazine_, 38 (1988-89), 4354-89;
surely something this lengthy would review the status of the Lee
ancestry of Anna, wife of Joseph Hanks. Traditionally, Elizabeth (___)
Taylor's husband (long dead by 1747) was not known. I haven't looked at
this carefully, but I see no reason not to accept him as the Thomas
Taylor who d. testate in 1712 in No. Farnham, Richmond Co., though it
names no wife or daughters.
Gens. 5-6. Connecting these two Thomas Taylors appears to have no
evidentiary base. Much of the biographical info. in 5 likely conflates
distinct people, as there is no evidence cited plantations on the James
and the Rappahannock, and early Virginia genealogy can take no relation
for granted even without a geographic discontinuity. Furthermore the
elder Thomas is said to be the Old Rappahannock Co. testator of 1686;
this man, however, bequeathed no land to kin, naming only two godsons in
his will. As a North Farnham resident who apparently d.s.p., he is
unlikely either to have had land on the James, or to be the father of
no. 6.
Gens. 4-5. Here is another one, and this is the crux of the problem of
Brewer's book for all the various Taylor lines. She makes the
identifiable originators of *several* known Virginia Taylor families
sons of John Taylor, whose estate was inventoried in Lancaster Co. in
1654 (earliest Taylor probate in the Northern Neck). Yet the only
concrete kinship data Brewer can show is the daughter Elizabeth, who m.
Simon Sallard, the son Richard Taylor (a minor in 1667, but who d.s.p.
1668 with sister Elizabeth Sallard as his heir); and another son John,
who passed his sister Elizbeth Sallard land in March of 1667 (and was
possibly dead by 1668, to have no part in disposition of brother
Richard's estate). Of the others, many are simply early settlers of
other parts of Virginia with no known connction. No known connection.
NO KNOWN CONNECTION.
Finally, gens. 4 and above:
A. Gen. 4: England to America. As with almost all alleged Enlglish
origins, this is a guess. There is no known data on John Taylor of
Lancaster Co., VA, to identify him with any specific John Taylor of
English origin. Look in the IGI, and you will see dozens of authentic
parish register extracts of births of an English John Taylor of the
right age to be the immigrant. Enough said.
B. the English genealogy of alleged descendants of Rowland Taylor:
There seems to have been widespread circulation of this genealogy,
especially in connecion with James Taylor of Caroline County, Virginia,
in the later 20th century, to judge from the number of independent
entries in the IGI corresponding to the English baptisms given in Brewer
(many taken from patron submissions from the 60s & 70s, suggesting a
widespread early source for this which I have not located).
One telltale problem visible in the IGI is that for *none* of the
baptisms given in Brewer's account of the English Taylors (son,
grandsons of Rowland) is there any authentic parish register material
cited in the IGI. The many duplications are all patron submissions,
listing places of birth as Carlisle (conflating the groundless but
oft-repeated tradition of the origin of James Taylor of Caroline
County), or Hadleigh, Suffolk (the place of Dr. Rowland Taylor's living)
or Cambridge, also mentioned here in Brewer. Simply put, because I can
find no authoritative primary source for it, there is no reason to trust
any of this data.
In another post I have already discussed English data purport, in
Brewer, to come from two sources (Foxe's _Acts & Monuments_, orig. pub.
1563; and Wm. J. Brown, _Life of Rowland Taylor_, pub. 1959); neither
source contains this information on Rowland Taylor's alleged descendants.
The final paragraph in Finton's post attaches the Rowland Taylor line to
the legend of 'Taillefer', which was first published (to my knowledge)
in 1838, in Burke's _Commoners_ (commonly called the _Landed Gentry_).
The lineage was attached to the Taylor family mentioned in the 1592
Visitations of Kent; this family has *no known connection* to Rowland
Taylor, rector of Hadleigh. I have posted elsewhere on the lack of any
evidence to tie the Visitation family either to any medieval people
named 'Taillefer' or to any Virginia colonists.
So, to review:
0. Taillefer...
-----[fictitious character; not authentic progenitor of any bearing
surname 'Taylor'; anyway, only alleged as progenitor of an armigerous
family of Kent, not the same as Rowland Taylor's family, as far as
anyone knows.]
1. Rowland Taylor = Margaret Tyndale
2. Thomas Taylor = Elizabeth Burwell
-----[entire Rowland Taylor genealogy of doubtful origin]
3. Thomas Taylor = Margaret Swinderby
-----[Rowland Taylor genealogy of doubtful origin; furthermore, no
evidence whatsoever for age or place of origin of John Taylor of
Lancaster Co., VA, let alone to make him the John in this generation in
the doubtful Rowland descendant genealogy]
4. John Taylor ('immigrant to Lancaster Co., VA) = Elizabeth ___
-----[no known Thomas named as son of John in extant records; John
appears to have had no sons alive as of 1668]
5. Thomas Taylor = Mary ___
-----[no evidence: testator (no. 5) apparently d.s.p.]
6. Thomas Taylor = Elizabeth Harwood
7. Dorothy Taylor = William Lee
-----[could be supported by Eliz. (___) Taylor's 1747 will, long known;
but not shown by Roberts: why?: I would carefully read his cited sources]
8. William Lee = ___ ___
9. Anna (Nancy) Lee = Joseph Hanks, Sr.
10. Joseph Hanks, Jr. = Nancy Shipley
-----[10 is a guess as par. of 11: see abundant Lincoln literature cited
by Roberts]
11. Nancy Hanks = Thomas Lincoln
12. Abraham Lincoln (U.S. President)
I'm tired of this now, but I hope Mr. Finton gets the point. None of it
is medieval anyway, so replies off list, please.
==================
This post, and the earlier one which preceeded it, are copyright (c)
2002 by Nathaniel Lane Taylor. This may not be quoted (beyond fair use)
or reprinted without my express prior written permission.
==================
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor <nta...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>In article <35.2571e3a...@aol.com>, KHF...@aol.com wrote:
>
>Part 2. Specific comments on this alleged Taylor-Lincoln line.
>
>In this, I shall look at specific problems ...
Oops. Actually, Ken wrote nothing quoted in my post. The line
'quotation' line was included just to reference the post to its
antecedent: like lineage-linking in a databse.
Nat Taylor
Hugh Jones
Hi,
is this what what you refer to from M.Boissonnade.That about in the
year 866 there was an another incursion into Poitou by Vikings,this
was lead by Stonius leader of the Jullards (Dainish Vikings).
The Count of Angouleme Guillaume with a blow of his Epee splits the
cuviasse of Stonius and kills him.Thus he takes the surnom Taillefer
which the counts of Angouleme and his descendents will continue to
carry.
Now the French word used is surnom = a nickname.
The English equivalent is surname = name common to all members of
family.
As we have transended into the modern world, backward use of words
does not help but hinder knowledge.
Though I found the Hastings legand of Taillefer hard to believe,
extremely suicidal to say the least, if you put in the context of the
behavour of Monsieur Bouteville it fits.
The Blazon of his son "The cursed Hunchback" Francois Henri Duc of
Luxembourg bottom left shield is the main Taillefer shield.As
identified.
Nathaniel Taylor
jon...@actrix.co.nz (Hugh Jones) wrote:
<re: origin of epithet 'Taillefer'>
>is this what what you refer to from M.Boissonnade.That about in the
>year 866 there was an another incursion into Poitou by Vikings,this
>was lead by Stonius leader of the Jullards (Dainish Vikings).
>The Count of Angouleme Guillaume with a blow of his Epee splits the
>cuviasse of Stonius and kills him.Thus he takes the surnom Taillefer
>which the counts of Angouleme and his descendents will continue to
>carry.
>Now the French word used is surnom = a nickname.
>The English equivalent is surname = name common to all members of
>family.
I did not have this particular point about the counts of Angouleme in
mind when discussing the name 'Taillefer' as falsely alleged origin of
the surname 'Taylor' in England. But it is also incorrect to assert,
following this use of the term by Boissonnade, that the counts of
Angouleme bore 'Taillefer' as a surname in the modern sense.
Any modern writer's use of the word 'surnom' is irrelevant.
This legend of the origin of the 'Taillefer' name among the counts of
Angouleme has to come from somewhere. Is it, by chance, from Adhemar of
Chabannes?
If the source from which this comes was written after the introduction
of true heritable surnames (say, the end of the eleventh century), then
the source may well use a word indicating heritable surname, but we can
assume the source is anachronistic because the idea didn't exist. If,
however, the source dates from earlier, we can assume that whatever term
is used, the intention must have been to use it in the sense of 'second
name', also transmitted in the family but not necessarily to everyone:
such as was common practice in Aquitaine and Septimania in this period.
The bottom line is: the family of the counts of Angouleme 'continued to
carry' this epithet Taillefer, but as a Leitnam or nickname, borne by
*some* members of the family as a *second name*, but not by *all*
members of the family as a *surname*. That is a big distinction.
Nat Taylor
Hugh Jones
> In article <370b40d5.02052...@posting.google.com>,
> jon...@actrix.co.nz (Hugh Jones) wrote:
>
> <re: origin of epithet 'Taillefer'>
>
> >is this what what you refer to from M.Boissonnade.That about in the
> >year 866 there was an another incursion into Poitou by Vikings,this
> >was lead by Stonius leader of the Jullards (Dainish Vikings).
> >The Count of Angouleme Guillaume with a blow of his Epee splits the
> >cuviasse of Stonius and kills him.Thus he takes the surnom Taillefer
> >which the counts of Angouleme and his descendents will continue to
> >carry.
> >Now the French word used is surnom = a nickname.
> >The English equivalent is surname = name common to all members of
> >family.
>
> I did not have this particular point about the counts of Angouleme in
> mind when discussing the name 'Taillefer' as falsely alleged origin of
> the surname 'Taylor' in England. But it is also incorrect to assert,
> following this use of the term by Boissonnade, that the counts of
> Angouleme bore 'Taillefer' as a surname in the modern sense.
> Any modern writer's use of the word 'surnom' is irrelevant.
>
> This legend of the origin of the 'Taillefer' name among the counts of
> Angouleme has to come from somewhere. Is it, by chance, from Adhemar of
> Chabannes?
> If the source from which this comes was written after the introduction
> of true heritable surnames (say, the end of the eleventh century), then
> the source may well use a word indicating heritable surname, but we can
> assume the source is anachronistic because the idea didn't exist. If,
> however, the source dates from earlier, we can assume that whatever term
> is used, the intention must have been to use it in the sense of 'second
> name', also transmitted in the family but not necessarily to everyone:
> such as was common practice in Aquitaine and Septimania in this period.
surname in France.
By the way the Tayleaurs of Shropshire (many thanks)possibily arrived
1215 and were from Laval (as per the Blazon)
>
> The bottom line is: the family of the counts of Angouleme 'continued to
> carry' this epithet Taillefer, but as a Leitnam or nickname, borne by
> *some* members of the family as a *second name*, but not by *all*
> members of the family as a *surname*. That is a big distinction.
(surnom)and evolved into a surname in the modern sense would not cut
it with you.(Hugh Jones)
>
> Nat Taylor
Todd A. Farmerie
> Nathaniel Taylor <nta...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<ntaylor-BE4AA2...@nnrp01.earthlink.net>...
>
>>The bottom line is: the family of the counts of Angouleme 'continued to
>>carry' this epithet Taillefer, but as a Leitnam or nickname, borne by
>>*some* members of the family as a *second name*, but not by *all*
>>members of the family as a *surname*. That is a big distinction.
>
> Therefore the name "Plantagenet" that started as a nickname
> (surnom)and evolved into a surname in the modern sense would not cut
> it with you.(Hugh Jones)
This is not how it happened. The nickname Plantagenet was borne
by one Count of Anjou. Several hundred years later (with no use
in between), a descendant from a family without a surname adopted
it as a surname in order to stress his relationship to the
earlier family. There was no process of evolution.
In the case of Taillefer, it was never a surname of the Angouleme
Counts (that is Nat's point). It was only used as a nickname by
some members of the family. Had the family continued, who knows,
the nickname might have evolved into a surname (as happened with
Longespee in England) but this didn't get a chance to happen, the
family ending in daughters just as a trend was starting to surface.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
jon...@actrix.co.nz (Hugh Jones) wrote:
Page 113 of what? If this is a footnote in Boissonnade, look to the
antecedent of the note. As for the second, how can a building be cited
as a source?
>> If the source from which this comes was written after the introduction
>> of true heritable surnames (say, the end of the eleventh century), then
>> the source may well use a word indicating heritable surname, but we can
>> assume the source is anachronistic because the idea didn't exist. If,
>> however, the source dates from earlier, we can assume that whatever term
>> is used, the intention must have been to use it in the sense of 'second
>> name', also transmitted in the family but not necessarily to everyone:
>> such as was common practice in Aquitaine and Septimania in this period.
>
>Therefore one would not expect to see the name Tallefer as a common
>surname in France.
Not in the 11th century. Taillefer is a perfectly respectable surname
(I don't know how common) when it appears, used as a surname, later.
The appearance and adoption of surnames is a complex matter.
>By the way the Tayleaurs of Shropshire (many thanks)possibily arrived
>1215 and were from Laval (as per the Blazon)
How does a blazon (formal written description of a coat of arms) show
the date of 'arrival' and place of origin of a family?
>> The bottom line is: the family of the counts of Angouleme 'continued to
>> carry' this epithet Taillefer, but as a Leitnam or nickname, borne by
>> *some* members of the family as a *second name*, but not by *all*
>> members of the family as a *surname*. That is a big distinction.
>
>Therefore the name "Plantagenet" that started as a nickname
>(surnom)and evolved into a surname in the modern sense would not cut
>it with you.(Hugh Jones)
Correct. See Todd's comments.
Todd and I have similar feelings on this point. Throughout Western
Europe, historians and later writers have a tendency to carelessly or
anachronistically assign heriditary surnames to people who are never
known to have used them in contemporary documents, and in periods where
the hereditary surnames in use in later times were not used at all.
This is not just an aesthetic issue or one of presentation (like 'how do
you enter so and so in a database?'), because it can end up compounding
errors of filiation and interpretation. If x didn't use the name y as a
second name, he or she should not be referred to as 'x y'. If you have
a lineage of people, in which the second name 'y' appears to have been
used by some members of the lineage and not others, it is misleading to
call all of them the "'y' family". This is what has been done with the
Counts of Angouleme.
Nat Taylor
Hugh Jones
A sister to Stemmata Botevilliana.
Hugh